You have not offered any proof that the quality of iTunes' "HD"-files can compete with the quality of Blu-Ray (hint: it can't). You have not offered any proof for your thesis that Blu-Ray is a "fading format" (hint: it isn't). You are merely posting inconsistent ramblings that do not address any of my points and read as if you were posting under the influence of LSD or some rather hard liquor. Therefore, I will henceforth ignore your posts, amusing though they may be.
i concede BD is bar none the best ,i would score it as a 9.8. i have said that already dude
i tunes hd is also very very good i would score it at 8.5
i ramble when i talk
i understand your points
you are willing to invest in =BD discs and want BD drives on your macs
fine
big deal
i counter to you sir that other interested forces or concerns will bring out BD quality content soon
24 to 36 months
BD will be by passed for non disc formats that will use flash drives or down loads or both .
HOW many 170 IQ pimple faced kids are right now working on these type issues ,
YOU also fail to see that movie studio's lose billions a year on bootlegs
cheap security encoded flash drive HD movies for 8n to 12 bucks a pop will put the pirates out of biz .
it will kill them on price and great BD NEAR OR BD QUALITY CONTENT
Yeah, yeah, I get it. Apple doesn't offer it, so it's not needed. What's there is good enough for us. Steve has made up his mind and anyone who doubts him must be reprimanded. Greet the future! Now featuring digital distribution systems that offer vastly inferior quality and are only available in one country on earth, hooray!
This is boring. Anyone want to seriously discuss Blu-Ray? Anyone?
vastly inferior quality ??????
now whose trolling ??
ITUNES HD FORMAT IS FANTASTIC ON MY MAC OR PLASMA 600MHZ TV
NOT AS GOOD AS BD
NETFLIX ROKU AMAZON ALSO OFFER HD CONTENT FOR DOWNLOAD
OK, here's a bet: if Apple offers a "non-disc format" that is equivalent in quality to Blu-Ray within 24-36 months, I will eat my hat AND call you a genius.
Until then, I will continue to want Blu-Ray and I will continue to jealously eye cheap PC laptops that have BR-drives and FullHD-screens.
1) It's terrible compared to 1080p, which is the current standard. I expect current-gen technology in a 2000-3000$ device.
2) Maybe not the day after, but shows and movies are being released in 1080p-quality all the time. It's called Blu-Ray and I'd like to take advantage of it.
3) I have neither the money nor the space for a home theater setup. I have never owned a television and likely never will. I have been watching all of my movies on my Mac for close to a decade now. Why should this change? Why should I invest thousands into a home theater system when my MBP would be able to play Blu-Rays just fine, if it had the necessary drive?
In fact, most everyone I know uses their laptop for movie-watching. I know exactly one person my age who owns an HDTV. We're all students, so we have little money and space and our laptops are our primary media hubs. And Blu-Ray offers a lot of benefits, the first and foremost being amazing image quality that cannot yet be reached by digital downloads.
4) The upcoming Vaio Z has a fullHD 13" display... But I'll admit that this is somewhat niche. What isn't niche, however, is FullHD on 15" displays. The 15" MBP has a pitifully low resolution compared to its similarly priced PC-brethren. 1080p video looks amazing on an HP Envy, for example, which also has a 15" display. I guess one of the problems here is that Apple still hasn't implemented full resolution independence in OS X. Anyway, I'm not just expecting Apple to slap a BR-drive into the MBP and call it a day. I obviously expect them to update the screens to current quality standards so that we will be able to really take advantage of Blu-Ray's capabilities.
BTW, even at the 13"-MBP's puny resolution one would discern a leap in quality from DVD to BR.
And why would the battery crap out playing BR any sooner than playing a DVD?
5) You know, I'm all for the death of optical media and the removal of disc drives from Macs, but it's just not happening yet, for the exact reasons I outlined in my previous post(s). Apple is not providing us with a suitable alternative. This is not like the iMac launch when they left out the Floppy drive and only offered a CD-drive. That was a radical move too, but it paid off because Apple offered the superior and more modern technology - the CD-drive - and customers realized that they didn't need the Floppy. In this case, Apple is selling Macs with obsolete media capabilities that no one really likes - people like myself who want to watch movies on their MBPs dislike the Superdrive because it doesn't play BR, others would like to get rid of the Superdrive too because they don't watch movies on their laptops anway. Nobody is happy with the current situation! If Apple is indeed serious about abandoning optical media, as you theorize, they should simply DO IT ALREADY and start offering laptops without these drives and start selling digital media at 1080p all over the world. That would be a believable strategy. Instead, they're still offering downloads at terrible quality and they're still including the obsolete technology in their Macs (Superdrive) and pretending that there's nothing better around. I'm fine with Apple not giving me everything I want, but if they decide to omit the current standard for optical media from their computers, they had better be ready and willing to provide an alternative. They're not.
6) As far as I know, BR sales aren't bad when compared to DVD sales at the same point in their respective life-cycles.
1) It's not nearly as good, but saying 720p is terrible compared to 1080p on a computer screen is still hyperbole, IMO. I like Blu-ray movies on a large HDTV with a great sound system, but I reserve that for a certain type of movie experience that can't be had on a laptop.
2) TV shows are released on disc after the season is over and often right before the next season starts. This means that it might be almost a year after the show being available on Hulu or iTS before it hits optical media. This goes back to convenience which will almost always trump quality.
3) If you want to want to watch on a PC then you can buy a drive, internal or externa, and play BR movies in Windows, which any Intel Mac can load.
4a) FullHD is just marketing. Soon 1080p will get pushed down to 720p's ranking that you call "terrible".
4b) The lack of RI in Mac OS X is a problem. Windows quasi-RI implementation, Windows Presentation Foundation, might be a stop gate but it works well. At this point I think Apple has to have RI set up in 10.7 or offer an intermediate system like MS.
4c) Blu-ray is more power hungry than DVD for several reasons. One, the blue laser is reading and pushing a lot more data than on DVD. Second, H.264 or VC-1 requires a lot more resources to decode than DVD's MPEG-2. But DVD isn't power friendly, either. If you're going to watch a movie on battery, it's better to copy to and play from disk so you don't have a spinning optical drive or the noise it can make.
4d) It's interesting you mention the HP Envy's display which doesn't have an optical drive in it. Apple isn't usually the first to market with trends but they are usually the first to embrace the trend completely which signifies that the industry will now be following suit.
5a) Sure they are, on many levels. When they finally remove optical drives from notebooks (desktops have the room and won't need to follow for sometime later) they can put the OS Restore Disc on cheap read-only NAND drive. SD card or USB flash drive, take your pick.
5b) Even slow NAND is much faster than optical media, and that doesn't include the low power, fast read write, size, and rewritability of these drives. Plus, when you compare the cost of a Blu-ray drive that will fit in a MBP to the cost of an SD Card reader and SD card, it takes a lot SD-cards before that becomes a viable option for cost. It's not just the cost of NAND v. a plastic disc, you have to include the player. There has to be a reason they added SD cards so late in the game, I think the new future of SDXC and the dying future of optical media on PCs was the reason.
5c) For those that just have to have an optical drive there are plenty of external options to choose from.
6) Yes, the sales are bad. Nearly all computers come with DVD drives, with many vendors offer Blu-ray drives as an option, but very few customers are opting for them. It's a great tech for a home theater, but it's a godawful tech for a notebook. Personally, I hope that Apple does offer Blu-ray and AACS support in the OS for movie playback, but I don't see it happening.
1) It's not nearly as good, but saying 720p is terrible compared to 1080p on a computer screen is still hyperbole, IMO. I like Blu-ray movies on a large HDTV with a great sound system, but I reserve that for a certain type of movie experience that can't be had on a laptop.
2) TV shows are released on disc after the season is over and often right before the next season starts. This means that it might be almost a year after the show being available on Hulu or iTS before it hits optical media. This goes back to convenience which will almost always trump quality.
3) If you want to want to watch on a PC then you can buy a drive, internal or externa, and play BR movies in Windows, which any Intel Mac can load.
4a) FullHD is just marketing. Soon 1080p will get pushed down to 720p's ranking that you call "terrible".
4b) The lack of RI in Mac OS X is a problem. Windows quasi-RI implementation, Windows Presentation Foundation, might be a stop gate but it works well. At this point I think Apple has to have RI set up in 10.7 or offer an intermediate system like MS.
4c) Blu-ray is more power hungry than DVD for several reasons. One, the blue laser is reading and pushing a lot more data than on DVD. Second, H.264 or VC-1 requires a lot more resources to decode than DVD's MPEG-2. But DVD isn't power friendly, either. If you're going to watch a movie on battery, it's better to copy to and play from disk so you don't have a spinning optical drive or the noise it can make.
4d) It's interesting you mention the HP Envy's display which doesn't have an optical drive in it. Apple isn't usually the first to market with trends but they are usually the first to embrace the trend completely which signifies that the industry will now be following suit.
5a) Sure they are, on many levels. When they finally remove optical drives from notebooks (desktops have the room and won't need to follow for sometime later) they can put the OS Restore Disc on cheap read-only NAND drive. SD card or USB flash drive, take your pick.
5b) Even slow NAND is much faster than optical media, and that doesn't include the low power, fast read write, size, and rewritability of these drives. Plus, when you compare the cost of a Blu-ray drive that will fit in a MBP to the cost of an SD Card reader and SD card, it takes a lot SD-cards before that becomes a viable option for cost. It's not just the cost of NAND v. a plastic disc, you have to include the player. There has to be a reason they added SD cards so late in the game, I think the new future of SDXC and the dying future of optical media on PCs was the reason.
5c) For those that just have to have an optical drive there are plenty of external options to choose from.
6) Yes, the sales are bad. Nearly all computers come with DVD drives, with many vendors offer Blu-ray drives as an option, but very few customers are opting for them. It's a great tech for a home theater, but it's a godawful tech for a notebook. Personally, I hope that Apple does offer Blu-ray and AACS support in the OS for movie playback, but I don't see it happening.
1) That movie experience can be had on a laptop... If it has a BR-drive and a decent screen that does 1080p. Since you're sitting very close to the laptop's screen, the jump in quality will be very impressive. Sure, not quite as impressive as on an expensive HDTV-setup, but again: why should I have to make this additional investment when the MBP is a very capable media player and I have used it as such without any issues for almost a decade?
2) Hulu is just as elusive here in Europe as the movies on the ITS, so I don't really care about that. Besides, if I follow a series - e.g. "Mad Men", which I'm currently into - I never watch it on television, since I don't want to wait between episodes and these series are shown in dubbed versions over here. I'd never watch something like "Mad Men" in German. So I usually wait until the DVD/BR comes out. No problem.
3) Why should I have to boot into Windows just to watch a movie? This is ludicrous. I was always proud that Apple had the best native DVD-player in the industry, and now I'm supposed to buy and boot into Windows to watch a movie? "It just works", my ass. Not to mention the additional cost of an external Blu-Ray drive, about 250$ minimum where I live.
4) FullHD may in large part be marketing, but to me it's simply a resolution that allows me to watch movies at a great quality. Apple's laptops should have screens that offer this resolution or a better one (like the 17" MBP already does). That's all I'm saying.
As for your other points, you haven't convinced me that Apple is actually offering us a viable alternative to the thing they're withholding. There is no iTunes movie store where I live, there is no Netflix, no Hulu. I'm dependent on physical media. Apple is currently not offering me a way to enjoy films at an appropriate quality on a supposedly high-end computer. That's the bottom line here. And you'll have to admit that the point I made earlier is true: if Apple were serious about killing off optical media, they would be a lot more radical in their approach. They would be offering drive-less MBPs that have an extra battery or an SSD in place of the optical drive, they would also be offering 1080p-content on the ITS and they would be desperately trying to make their movie offerings available to people outside the US. Perhaps they're contemplating some of these moves, but at the moment they're not really doing anything that convinces me.
OK, here's a bet: if Apple offers a "non-disc format" that is equivalent in quality to Blu-Ray within 24-36 months, I will eat my hat AND call you a genius.
Until then, I will continue to want Blu-Ray and I will continue to jealously eye cheap PC laptops that have BR-drives and FullHD-screens.
As for your other points, you haven't convinced me that Apple is actually offering us a viable alternative to the thing they're withholding. There is no iTunes movie store where I live, there is no Netflix, no Hulu. I'm dependent on physical media.
1) I'm not trying to convince you what's best for you, I'm trying to open your eyes as to what's most likely best for Apple and what their goals are. We have a choice to buy or not to buy. If a product doesn't suit or needs we can buy a competitors. Or if we are really outgoing and see a market we can try to compete with them by building a better mousetrap, so to speak, but saying Apple should do something because you want it isn't a valid argument. There are many things I want, most of which I don't expect to get and certainly don't feel entitled to have.
2) Use a VPN based in the US.and you can Hulu and Netflix streaming. Netflix streaming may require a US credit card, but Hulu should be fine. Try Hotspot Shield. it's what I use on open networks, courtesy of NasserAE.
1) I'm not trying to convince you what's best for you, I'm trying to open your eyes as to what's most likely best for Apple and what their goals are. We have a choice to buy or not to buy. If a product doesn't suit or needs we can buy a competitors. Or if we are really outgoing and see a market we can try to compete with them by building a better mousetrap, so to speak, but saying Apple should do something because you want it isn't a valid argument. There are many things I want, most of which I don't expect to get and certainly don't feel entitled to have.
2) Use a VPN based in the US.and you can Hulu and Netflix streaming. Netflix streaming may require a US credit card, but Hulu should be fine. Try Hotspot Shield. it's what I use on open networks, courtesy of NasserAE.
Apple should include current-gen technology in their computers not because I want it, but because it's what reasonable customers expect in expensive, high-end machines. Apple should include current-gen technology in their computers because people like myself might be tempted to jump ship to the competition if they don't. And if Apple decides to withhold current-gen technology from us, they should offer us a viable alternative and share with us their reasons and their long-term plan (which they're not doing right now).
That said, thanks for the link, I'll look into it. And thanks for the civil debate, I'm not really used to it on Apple-forums anymore.
And you seem to forget that Apple likes to sell MacBooks and Mac Minis with integrated graphics only. The Intel / Nvidia issue affects all Macs that use integrated graphics. *Even the MacBook Pro is not immune because the 13 inch MacBook Pro has integrated graphics only. Without a competing integrated graphics solution from Nvidia, what's Apple going to do? *Start spinning the "wimpy" Intel IGP as superior in performance to what Nvidia can provide, and bring back that "incredible value proposition" marketing BS that they used when referring to Intel integrated graphics in the first Intel Mac Mini?
I can almost guarantee you, Apple will have to include a discrete Nvidia or ATI GPU in evey MacBook Pro that has an Intel i5/i7 Arrandale in it... Apple's not going to sit arround waiting for Intel and Nvidia to settle their dispute just so they can continue using integrated GPU's from Nvidia (particullarly not when other Arrandale notebooks are beginning to hit the market). And if you dig deep enough, even though Nvidia's new Optimus tech for their discrete GPUs doesn't officially list support for OS X, you'll find a certain snowy cat next to some of their documentation. *Hint, hint* **
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep
so mr 6000 post macrumour god thread poster.
Do *Ya Think that instead of using One GPU chip or the other >>
*Which is of course two great options. <<
Maybe apple can use both G P U *chips AT the same time *giving us*
a THRID *powerful option??
so whadda think ??
peace*
9
*
Lol, I don't claim to be a "God thread poster", I'm just a little more informed than some people in this particular matter. As far as being able to use both at the same time, it's anyone's guess really... I don't think the Intel IGP is capable of computing OpenCL, but it would certainly be nice to let it handle the basic graphics needs, while letting the discrete GPU do more intensive stuff, like encoding video in OpenCl... when Apple eventually offers support for it in FCP.**
The reason why I've been following the thread so much is because I do a ton of HD video editing on the fly, and I'm really looking forward to the performance boost of the new i5/i7 Arrandales. One of the biggest gains in performane between Core 2 Dou and the i5/i7 Arrandales will be in video encoding/ rendering! * **
I can almost guarantee you, Apple will have to include a discrete Nvidia or ATI GPU in evey MacBook Pro that has an Intel i5/i7 Arrandale in it... Apple's not going to sit arround waiting for Intel and Nvidia to settle their dispute just so they can continue using integrated GPU's from Nvidia (particullarly not when other Arrandale notebooks are beginning to hit the market). And if you dig deep enough, even though Nvidia's new Optimus tech for their discrete GPUs doesn't officially list support for OS X, you'll find a certain snowy cat next to some of their documentation. *Hint, hint* **
*
Lol, I don't claim to be a "God thread poster", I'm just a little more informed than some people in this particular matter. As far as being able to use both at the same time, it's anyone's guess really... I don't think the Intel IGP is capable of computing OpenCL, but it would certainly be nice to let it handle the basic graphics needs, while letting the discrete GPU do more intensive stuff, like encoding video in OpenCl... when Apple eventually offers support for it in FCP.**
The reason why I've been following the thread so much is because I do a ton of HD video editing on the fly, and I'm really looking forward to the performance boost of the new i5/i7 Arrandales. One of the biggest gains in performane between Core 2 Dou and the i5/i7 Arrandales will be in video encoding/ rendering! * **
I think discs are more convenient than downloads. You don't have to store the wads of GBs on your HDDs and you can quickly move the disc between your computer and your home theater's DVD/BD player.
Additionally, I think download-based movie watching will get extra inconvenient for us all. Sony, Warner Bros., etc., will always be on the lookout for a better distribution deal, and may even set up their own shops. This will be bad because you might not be able to always bet on them distributing their movies in a format (like h.264) that either your computer or home theater will be able to recognize, unlike the ubiquitous DVD. Microsoft will start another format war, and will gather support for the next version of VC-1 from smaller studios, and the only way some of us will be able to appreciate the less popular movies distributed in Microsoft's format will be to have another account or set of hardware to play the competing format.
It could be worse. Warner and Sony and all the other studios might not go for either Apple's iTunes store or a Microsoft store or an Amazon store and come up with their own stores and formats/LEVELS OF QUALITY and we'll be the ones who will have to cope with the differing qualities set up by them as well as making sure that we can play all the formats from each vendor.
This article is just a pack of BS. Nvidia's chipset line wasn't "fledgling" and it wasn't cutting-edge. Nvidia has been making crappy chipsets (buggy, unstable, overheating) for probably ten years now.
The very idea of creating a third-party chipset for Nehalem-derived processors is stupid. With the northbridge now integrated onto the processor itself, the chipset is relegated to the role of a simple I/O hub (what we used to call the southbridge). Nvidia had plenty of time to see this coming, and the result is their "Optimus" tech, a neat solution to automate switchable graphics.
Will Apple use that tech? Who knows. But don't cry for poor Nvidia.
I think discs are more convenient than downloads. You don't have to store the wads of GBs on your HDDs and you can quickly move the disc between your computer and your home theater's DVD/BD player.
Additionally, I think download-based movie watching will get extra inconvenient for us all. Sony, Warner Bros., etc., will always be on the lookout for a better distribution deal, and may even set up their own shops. This will be bad because you might not be able to always bet on them distributing their movies in a format (like h.264) that either your computer or home theater will be able to recognize, unlike the ubiquitous DVD. Microsoft will start another format war, and will gather support for the next version of VC-1 from smaller studios, and the only way some of us will be able to appreciate the less popular movies distributed in Microsoft's format will be to have another account or set of hardware to play the competing format.
It could be worse. Warner and Sony and all the other studios might not go for either Apple's iTunes store or a Microsoft store or an Amazon store and come up with their own stores and formats/LEVELS OF QUALITY and we'll be the ones who will have to cope with the differing qualities set up by them as well as making sure that we can play all the formats from each vendor.
Or we can buy one DVD/BD from any of them.
nice try
but digital in the clouds with massive economies of scale make digital much cheaper and faster and greener than discs
and twenty yr old cult films are already 4 .99 on disc or online
The days of massive dvd sales and bookshelves of dvd/disc collections are nearing an end....
Even so, people actually do like to get out and go shopping, buy a dvd, browse, hire etc. It's part of what we do, and even if the industry rapidly gears towards digital-downloads, it's going to take sometime for peoples habits to change. It's also going to take sometime just to educate people how to even download and watch a video on their TV -- you know, most people are terrible at file management.
Saying all that, Apple has always been one to push into the future, not be held back by peoples archaic habits. And good on them, sometimes ballsy moves (ie. loosing the floppy drive) are what the industry needs. In this case, not supporting Blu-Ray isn't even very ballsy, the demand is pretty low in the first place.
Does anyone know if/why this technology wouldn't be available for existing dual-graphics MacBook Pros? I was under the impression the existing cards were capable of auto-switching, and that similar PC latptops can already do it. I thought it was more a software/graphics issue with MacOS X that was preventing auto-switching. It would suck if they couldn't make this technology backwards compatible via firmware updates.
Can anyone offer more light on the situation for existing laptops?
Does anyone know if/why this technology wouldn't be available for existing dual-graphics MacBook Pros? I was under the impression the existing cards were capable of auto-switching, and that similar PC latptops can already do it. I thought it was more a software/graphics issue with MacOS X that was preventing auto-switching. It would suck if they couldn't make this technology backwards compatible via firmware updates.
Can anyone offer more light on the situation for existing laptops?
AFAIK only the 200/300M-series of GPUs are Optimus-ready.
1) Saying it's terrible is hyperbolic. Take a gander at Hulu's default 360p.
2) Offering High Profile 1080p in 2010 the day after the show airs just isn't going to happen.
3) I don't understand this desire for Blu-ray on a PC. It's a home theater technology. There was a time when CDs and DVDs had a great cost-to-MB ratio for consumers, but that time is gone and Blu-ray in computers is simply an expensive option, that offers little to no benefit with plenty of negatives to go along with it.
4) Most PCs that Apple sells are 13" notebooks with 1280x800 resolution displays. What good does a High Profile 1080p video going to do on such a small display. Then there is the UX issues that have to be dealt with, like using a Blu-ray player to watch a movie on a long flight just to find that the battery dies before you get to the ending.
5) Apple will remove the optical drives from notebooks before it adds AACS support. Optical drives take up a huge part of the machine, they require 5" of port-side space for disc entry thus reducing engineering options, they use a lot of power, are finicky devices with moving parts likely toward the top of repairs Apple Care does, they read and write very slowly compared to storage mediums, they are loud and discs can be pricey. It's great for the home theater, but not for a consumer PC.
6) BRDs are not selling well in the non-Mac PC space. Other vendors offer them but they build systems that allow for the option of cheap BRDs. Apple doesn't have that luxury since they have a 9.5mm ultra-slim slot-loading optical drive.
You can get BR in laptops for under $700, with a Core i3 and Intel HD GMA, and for less than $1000, you can get a Sony Vaio with a Core i5-430 (with HT), 4 GB DDR3 RAM (exp to 8 GB), 500 GB HD, 14.1" 1600x900 res screen, 512 MB dedicated Nvidia GT 330M, and HDMI out.
It's not an expensive option anymore, and the rest of the market is moving along with Core i and dedicated GPU's already.
I'm actually seriously considering that Sony, as it has nearly everything I want in it, especially since it's small and has a higher res screen, and I like the color.
You can get BR in laptops for under $700, with a Core i3 and Intel HD GMA, and for less than $1000, you can get a Sony Vaio with a Core i5-430 (with HT), 4 GB DDR3 RAM (exp to 8 GB), 500 GB HD, 14.1" 1600x900 res screen, 512 MB dedicated Nvidia GT 330M, and HDMI out.
It's not an expensive option anymore, and the rest of the market is moving along with Core i and dedicated GPU's already.
I'm actually seriously considering that Sony, as it has nearly everything I want in it, especially since it's small and has a higher res screen, and I like the color.
Yes, the cost has come down, as technology tends to do, but for that drive to work in a Mac Apple would have to completely alter it's signature engineering and aesthetic choices. They use 9.5mm ultra-slim slot-laoding drives. I don't think they're going to use a huge tray-loading drive just add Blu-ray.
And while I'd love for BRD to end up in Macs as an option, even though I'd never get one, I think they are going to be removing the internal optical drive from their notebook line before that. The longer they wait the more likely that will happen and they haven't even added AACS to Mac OS X so 3rd-party BRD for movies can be used, which would alleviate half the issue people have.
There is at least a Dell or Sony with a CD/DVD/BR combo drive that is 9.5mm high, but it was tray-loading if I recall correctly, and that only game out a year ago. Slot-laoding always comes later because of the technology. Have they been released? Who is making them and how much are they?
Comments
You have not offered any proof that the quality of iTunes' "HD"-files can compete with the quality of Blu-Ray (hint: it can't). You have not offered any proof for your thesis that Blu-Ray is a "fading format" (hint: it isn't). You are merely posting inconsistent ramblings that do not address any of my points and read as if you were posting under the influence of LSD or some rather hard liquor. Therefore, I will henceforth ignore your posts, amusing though they may be.
i concede BD is bar none the best ,i would score it as a 9.8. i have said that already dude
i tunes hd is also very very good i would score it at 8.5
i ramble when i talk
i understand your points
you are willing to invest in =BD discs and want BD drives on your macs
fine
big deal
i counter to you sir that other interested forces or concerns will bring out BD quality content soon
24 to 36 months
BD will be by passed for non disc formats that will use flash drives or down loads or both .
HOW many 170 IQ pimple faced kids are right now working on these type issues ,
YOU also fail to see that movie studio's lose billions a year on bootlegs
cheap security encoded flash drive HD movies for 8n to 12 bucks a pop will put the pirates out of biz .
it will kill them on price and great BD NEAR OR BD QUALITY CONTENT
again i do not drink or take drugs
but i do ramble
sorry
peace
9
Yeah, yeah, I get it. Apple doesn't offer it, so it's not needed. What's there is good enough for us. Steve has made up his mind and anyone who doubts him must be reprimanded. Greet the future! Now featuring digital distribution systems that offer vastly inferior quality and are only available in one country on earth, hooray!
This is boring. Anyone want to seriously discuss Blu-Ray? Anyone?
vastly inferior quality ??????
now whose trolling ??
ITUNES HD FORMAT IS FANTASTIC ON MY MAC OR PLASMA 600MHZ TV
NOT AS GOOD AS BD
NETFLIX ROKU AMAZON ALSO OFFER HD CONTENT FOR DOWNLOAD
FLOOPY DISCS DO NOT MAKR GOOD FRISBEES
BD DISCS DO
CATCH
Until then, I will continue to want Blu-Ray and I will continue to jealously eye cheap PC laptops that have BR-drives and FullHD-screens.
1) It's terrible compared to 1080p, which is the current standard. I expect current-gen technology in a 2000-3000$ device.
2) Maybe not the day after, but shows and movies are being released in 1080p-quality all the time. It's called Blu-Ray and I'd like to take advantage of it.
3) I have neither the money nor the space for a home theater setup. I have never owned a television and likely never will. I have been watching all of my movies on my Mac for close to a decade now. Why should this change? Why should I invest thousands into a home theater system when my MBP would be able to play Blu-Rays just fine, if it had the necessary drive?
In fact, most everyone I know uses their laptop for movie-watching. I know exactly one person my age who owns an HDTV. We're all students, so we have little money and space and our laptops are our primary media hubs. And Blu-Ray offers a lot of benefits, the first and foremost being amazing image quality that cannot yet be reached by digital downloads.
4) The upcoming Vaio Z has a fullHD 13" display... But I'll admit that this is somewhat niche. What isn't niche, however, is FullHD on 15" displays. The 15" MBP has a pitifully low resolution compared to its similarly priced PC-brethren. 1080p video looks amazing on an HP Envy, for example, which also has a 15" display. I guess one of the problems here is that Apple still hasn't implemented full resolution independence in OS X. Anyway, I'm not just expecting Apple to slap a BR-drive into the MBP and call it a day. I obviously expect them to update the screens to current quality standards so that we will be able to really take advantage of Blu-Ray's capabilities.
BTW, even at the 13"-MBP's puny resolution one would discern a leap in quality from DVD to BR.
And why would the battery crap out playing BR any sooner than playing a DVD?
5) You know, I'm all for the death of optical media and the removal of disc drives from Macs, but it's just not happening yet, for the exact reasons I outlined in my previous post(s). Apple is not providing us with a suitable alternative. This is not like the iMac launch when they left out the Floppy drive and only offered a CD-drive. That was a radical move too, but it paid off because Apple offered the superior and more modern technology - the CD-drive - and customers realized that they didn't need the Floppy. In this case, Apple is selling Macs with obsolete media capabilities that no one really likes - people like myself who want to watch movies on their MBPs dislike the Superdrive because it doesn't play BR, others would like to get rid of the Superdrive too because they don't watch movies on their laptops anway. Nobody is happy with the current situation! If Apple is indeed serious about abandoning optical media, as you theorize, they should simply DO IT ALREADY and start offering laptops without these drives and start selling digital media at 1080p all over the world. That would be a believable strategy. Instead, they're still offering downloads at terrible quality and they're still including the obsolete technology in their Macs (Superdrive) and pretending that there's nothing better around. I'm fine with Apple not giving me everything I want, but if they decide to omit the current standard for optical media from their computers, they had better be ready and willing to provide an alternative. They're not.
6) As far as I know, BR sales aren't bad when compared to DVD sales at the same point in their respective life-cycles.
1) It's not nearly as good, but saying 720p is terrible compared to 1080p on a computer screen is still hyperbole, IMO. I like Blu-ray movies on a large HDTV with a great sound system, but I reserve that for a certain type of movie experience that can't be had on a laptop.
2) TV shows are released on disc after the season is over and often right before the next season starts. This means that it might be almost a year after the show being available on Hulu or iTS before it hits optical media. This goes back to convenience which will almost always trump quality.
3) If you want to want to watch on a PC then you can buy a drive, internal or externa, and play BR movies in Windows, which any Intel Mac can load.
4a) FullHD is just marketing. Soon 1080p will get pushed down to 720p's ranking that you call "terrible".
4b) The lack of RI in Mac OS X is a problem. Windows quasi-RI implementation, Windows Presentation Foundation, might be a stop gate but it works well. At this point I think Apple has to have RI set up in 10.7 or offer an intermediate system like MS.
4c) Blu-ray is more power hungry than DVD for several reasons. One, the blue laser is reading and pushing a lot more data than on DVD. Second, H.264 or VC-1 requires a lot more resources to decode than DVD's MPEG-2. But DVD isn't power friendly, either. If you're going to watch a movie on battery, it's better to copy to and play from disk so you don't have a spinning optical drive or the noise it can make.
4d) It's interesting you mention the HP Envy's display which doesn't have an optical drive in it. Apple isn't usually the first to market with trends but they are usually the first to embrace the trend completely which signifies that the industry will now be following suit.
5a) Sure they are, on many levels. When they finally remove optical drives from notebooks (desktops have the room and won't need to follow for sometime later) they can put the OS Restore Disc on cheap read-only NAND drive. SD card or USB flash drive, take your pick.
5b) Even slow NAND is much faster than optical media, and that doesn't include the low power, fast read write, size, and rewritability of these drives. Plus, when you compare the cost of a Blu-ray drive that will fit in a MBP to the cost of an SD Card reader and SD card, it takes a lot SD-cards before that becomes a viable option for cost. It's not just the cost of NAND v. a plastic disc, you have to include the player. There has to be a reason they added SD cards so late in the game, I think the new future of SDXC and the dying future of optical media on PCs was the reason.
5c) For those that just have to have an optical drive there are plenty of external options to choose from.
6) Yes, the sales are bad. Nearly all computers come with DVD drives, with many vendors offer Blu-ray drives as an option, but very few customers are opting for them. It's a great tech for a home theater, but it's a godawful tech for a notebook. Personally, I hope that Apple does offer Blu-ray and AACS support in the OS for movie playback, but I don't see it happening.
1) It's not nearly as good, but saying 720p is terrible compared to 1080p on a computer screen is still hyperbole, IMO. I like Blu-ray movies on a large HDTV with a great sound system, but I reserve that for a certain type of movie experience that can't be had on a laptop.
2) TV shows are released on disc after the season is over and often right before the next season starts. This means that it might be almost a year after the show being available on Hulu or iTS before it hits optical media. This goes back to convenience which will almost always trump quality.
3) If you want to want to watch on a PC then you can buy a drive, internal or externa, and play BR movies in Windows, which any Intel Mac can load.
4a) FullHD is just marketing. Soon 1080p will get pushed down to 720p's ranking that you call "terrible".
4b) The lack of RI in Mac OS X is a problem. Windows quasi-RI implementation, Windows Presentation Foundation, might be a stop gate but it works well. At this point I think Apple has to have RI set up in 10.7 or offer an intermediate system like MS.
4c) Blu-ray is more power hungry than DVD for several reasons. One, the blue laser is reading and pushing a lot more data than on DVD. Second, H.264 or VC-1 requires a lot more resources to decode than DVD's MPEG-2. But DVD isn't power friendly, either. If you're going to watch a movie on battery, it's better to copy to and play from disk so you don't have a spinning optical drive or the noise it can make.
4d) It's interesting you mention the HP Envy's display which doesn't have an optical drive in it. Apple isn't usually the first to market with trends but they are usually the first to embrace the trend completely which signifies that the industry will now be following suit.
5a) Sure they are, on many levels. When they finally remove optical drives from notebooks (desktops have the room and won't need to follow for sometime later) they can put the OS Restore Disc on cheap read-only NAND drive. SD card or USB flash drive, take your pick.
5b) Even slow NAND is much faster than optical media, and that doesn't include the low power, fast read write, size, and rewritability of these drives. Plus, when you compare the cost of a Blu-ray drive that will fit in a MBP to the cost of an SD Card reader and SD card, it takes a lot SD-cards before that becomes a viable option for cost. It's not just the cost of NAND v. a plastic disc, you have to include the player. There has to be a reason they added SD cards so late in the game, I think the new future of SDXC and the dying future of optical media on PCs was the reason.
5c) For those that just have to have an optical drive there are plenty of external options to choose from.
6) Yes, the sales are bad. Nearly all computers come with DVD drives, with many vendors offer Blu-ray drives as an option, but very few customers are opting for them. It's a great tech for a home theater, but it's a godawful tech for a notebook. Personally, I hope that Apple does offer Blu-ray and AACS support in the OS for movie playback, but I don't see it happening.
1) That movie experience can be had on a laptop... If it has a BR-drive and a decent screen that does 1080p. Since you're sitting very close to the laptop's screen, the jump in quality will be very impressive. Sure, not quite as impressive as on an expensive HDTV-setup, but again: why should I have to make this additional investment when the MBP is a very capable media player and I have used it as such without any issues for almost a decade?
2) Hulu is just as elusive here in Europe as the movies on the ITS, so I don't really care about that. Besides, if I follow a series - e.g. "Mad Men", which I'm currently into - I never watch it on television, since I don't want to wait between episodes and these series are shown in dubbed versions over here. I'd never watch something like "Mad Men" in German. So I usually wait until the DVD/BR comes out. No problem.
3) Why should I have to boot into Windows just to watch a movie? This is ludicrous. I was always proud that Apple had the best native DVD-player in the industry, and now I'm supposed to buy and boot into Windows to watch a movie? "It just works", my ass. Not to mention the additional cost of an external Blu-Ray drive, about 250$ minimum where I live.
4) FullHD may in large part be marketing, but to me it's simply a resolution that allows me to watch movies at a great quality. Apple's laptops should have screens that offer this resolution or a better one (like the 17" MBP already does). That's all I'm saying.
As for your other points, you haven't convinced me that Apple is actually offering us a viable alternative to the thing they're withholding. There is no iTunes movie store where I live, there is no Netflix, no Hulu. I'm dependent on physical media. Apple is currently not offering me a way to enjoy films at an appropriate quality on a supposedly high-end computer. That's the bottom line here. And you'll have to admit that the point I made earlier is true: if Apple were serious about killing off optical media, they would be a lot more radical in their approach. They would be offering drive-less MBPs that have an extra battery or an SSD in place of the optical drive, they would also be offering 1080p-content on the ITS and they would be desperately trying to make their movie offerings available to people outside the US. Perhaps they're contemplating some of these moves, but at the moment they're not really doing anything that convinces me.
OK, here's a bet: if Apple offers a "non-disc format" that is equivalent in quality to Blu-Ray within 24-36 months, I will eat my hat AND call you a genius.
Until then, I will continue to want Blu-Ray and I will continue to jealously eye cheap PC laptops that have BR-drives and FullHD-screens.
MBA is the first half
and to think apple hd will not improve is silly
As for your other points, you haven't convinced me that Apple is actually offering us a viable alternative to the thing they're withholding. There is no iTunes movie store where I live, there is no Netflix, no Hulu. I'm dependent on physical media.
1) I'm not trying to convince you what's best for you, I'm trying to open your eyes as to what's most likely best for Apple and what their goals are. We have a choice to buy or not to buy. If a product doesn't suit or needs we can buy a competitors. Or if we are really outgoing and see a market we can try to compete with them by building a better mousetrap, so to speak, but saying Apple should do something because you want it isn't a valid argument. There are many things I want, most of which I don't expect to get and certainly don't feel entitled to have.
2) Use a VPN based in the US.and you can Hulu and Netflix streaming. Netflix streaming may require a US credit card, but Hulu should be fine. Try Hotspot Shield. it's what I use on open networks, courtesy of NasserAE.
1) I'm not trying to convince you what's best for you, I'm trying to open your eyes as to what's most likely best for Apple and what their goals are. We have a choice to buy or not to buy. If a product doesn't suit or needs we can buy a competitors. Or if we are really outgoing and see a market we can try to compete with them by building a better mousetrap, so to speak, but saying Apple should do something because you want it isn't a valid argument. There are many things I want, most of which I don't expect to get and certainly don't feel entitled to have.
2) Use a VPN based in the US.and you can Hulu and Netflix streaming. Netflix streaming may require a US credit card, but Hulu should be fine. Try Hotspot Shield. it's what I use on open networks, courtesy of NasserAE.
Apple should include current-gen technology in their computers not because I want it, but because it's what reasonable customers expect in expensive, high-end machines. Apple should include current-gen technology in their computers because people like myself might be tempted to jump ship to the competition if they don't. And if Apple decides to withhold current-gen technology from us, they should offer us a viable alternative and share with us their reasons and their long-term plan (which they're not doing right now).
That said, thanks for the link, I'll look into it. And thanks for the civil debate, I'm not really used to it on Apple-forums anymore.
That said, thanks for the link, I'll look into it. And thanks for the civil debate, I'm not really used to it on Apple-forums anymore.
It's been fun.
This is the only Apple-focus forum I frequent. There are a lot of well informed and objective contributors here.
And you seem to forget that Apple likes to sell MacBooks and Mac Minis with integrated graphics only. The Intel / Nvidia issue affects all Macs that use integrated graphics. *Even the MacBook Pro is not immune because the 13 inch MacBook Pro has integrated graphics only. Without a competing integrated graphics solution from Nvidia, what's Apple going to do? *Start spinning the "wimpy" Intel IGP as superior in performance to what Nvidia can provide, and bring back that "incredible value proposition" marketing BS that they used when referring to Intel integrated graphics in the first Intel Mac Mini?
I can almost guarantee you, Apple will have to include a discrete Nvidia or ATI GPU in evey MacBook Pro that has an Intel i5/i7 Arrandale in it... Apple's not going to sit arround waiting for Intel and Nvidia to settle their dispute just so they can continue using integrated GPU's from Nvidia (particullarly not when other Arrandale notebooks are beginning to hit the market). And if you dig deep enough, even though Nvidia's new Optimus tech for their discrete GPUs doesn't officially list support for OS X, you'll find a certain snowy cat next to some of their documentation. *Hint, hint* **
so mr 6000 post macrumour god thread poster.
Do *Ya Think that instead of using One GPU chip or the other >>
*Which is of course two great options. <<
Maybe apple can use both G P U *chips AT the same time *giving us*
a THRID *powerful option??
so whadda think ??
peace*
9
*
Lol, I don't claim to be a "God thread poster", I'm just a little more informed than some people in this particular matter. As far as being able to use both at the same time, it's anyone's guess really... I don't think the Intel IGP is capable of computing OpenCL, but it would certainly be nice to let it handle the basic graphics needs, while letting the discrete GPU do more intensive stuff, like encoding video in OpenCl... when Apple eventually offers support for it in FCP.**
The reason why I've been following the thread so much is because I do a ton of HD video editing on the fly, and I'm really looking forward to the performance boost of the new i5/i7 Arrandales. One of the biggest gains in performane between Core 2 Dou and the i5/i7 Arrandales will be in video encoding/ rendering! * **
I can almost guarantee you, Apple will have to include a discrete Nvidia or ATI GPU in evey MacBook Pro that has an Intel i5/i7 Arrandale in it... Apple's not going to sit arround waiting for Intel and Nvidia to settle their dispute just so they can continue using integrated GPU's from Nvidia (particullarly not when other Arrandale notebooks are beginning to hit the market). And if you dig deep enough, even though Nvidia's new Optimus tech for their discrete GPUs doesn't officially list support for OS X, you'll find a certain snowy cat next to some of their documentation. *Hint, hint* **
*
Lol, I don't claim to be a "God thread poster", I'm just a little more informed than some people in this particular matter. As far as being able to use both at the same time, it's anyone's guess really... I don't think the Intel IGP is capable of computing OpenCL, but it would certainly be nice to let it handle the basic graphics needs, while letting the discrete GPU do more intensive stuff, like encoding video in OpenCl... when Apple eventually offers support for it in FCP.**
The reason why I've been following the thread so much is because I do a ton of HD video editing on the fly, and I'm really looking forward to the performance boost of the new i5/i7 Arrandales. One of the biggest gains in performane between Core 2 Dou and the i5/i7 Arrandales will be in video encoding/ rendering! * **
i wanna play cryis
Additionally, I think download-based movie watching will get extra inconvenient for us all. Sony, Warner Bros., etc., will always be on the lookout for a better distribution deal, and may even set up their own shops. This will be bad because you might not be able to always bet on them distributing their movies in a format (like h.264) that either your computer or home theater will be able to recognize, unlike the ubiquitous DVD. Microsoft will start another format war, and will gather support for the next version of VC-1 from smaller studios, and the only way some of us will be able to appreciate the less popular movies distributed in Microsoft's format will be to have another account or set of hardware to play the competing format.
It could be worse. Warner and Sony and all the other studios might not go for either Apple's iTunes store or a Microsoft store or an Amazon store and come up with their own stores and formats/LEVELS OF QUALITY and we'll be the ones who will have to cope with the differing qualities set up by them as well as making sure that we can play all the formats from each vendor.
Or we can buy one DVD/BD from any of them.
The very idea of creating a third-party chipset for Nehalem-derived processors is stupid. With the northbridge now integrated onto the processor itself, the chipset is relegated to the role of a simple I/O hub (what we used to call the southbridge). Nvidia had plenty of time to see this coming, and the result is their "Optimus" tech, a neat solution to automate switchable graphics.
Will Apple use that tech? Who knows. But don't cry for poor Nvidia.
I think discs are more convenient than downloads. You don't have to store the wads of GBs on your HDDs and you can quickly move the disc between your computer and your home theater's DVD/BD player.
Additionally, I think download-based movie watching will get extra inconvenient for us all. Sony, Warner Bros., etc., will always be on the lookout for a better distribution deal, and may even set up their own shops. This will be bad because you might not be able to always bet on them distributing their movies in a format (like h.264) that either your computer or home theater will be able to recognize, unlike the ubiquitous DVD. Microsoft will start another format war, and will gather support for the next version of VC-1 from smaller studios, and the only way some of us will be able to appreciate the less popular movies distributed in Microsoft's format will be to have another account or set of hardware to play the competing format.
It could be worse. Warner and Sony and all the other studios might not go for either Apple's iTunes store or a Microsoft store or an Amazon store and come up with their own stores and formats/LEVELS OF QUALITY and we'll be the ones who will have to cope with the differing qualities set up by them as well as making sure that we can play all the formats from each vendor.
Or we can buy one DVD/BD from any of them.
nice try
but digital in the clouds with massive economies of scale make digital much cheaper and faster and greener than discs
and twenty yr old cult films are already 4 .99 on disc or online
the market will fragment even more
and the race to bottom heats up
i hope they do set up their own stores
and quality is going up ,,digital is simple
0
Even so, people actually do like to get out and go shopping, buy a dvd, browse, hire etc. It's part of what we do, and even if the industry rapidly gears towards digital-downloads, it's going to take sometime for peoples habits to change. It's also going to take sometime just to educate people how to even download and watch a video on their TV -- you know, most people are terrible at file management.
Saying all that, Apple has always been one to push into the future, not be held back by peoples archaic habits. And good on them, sometimes ballsy moves (ie. loosing the floppy drive) are what the industry needs. In this case, not supporting Blu-Ray isn't even very ballsy, the demand is pretty low in the first place.
Can anyone offer more light on the situation for existing laptops?
Does anyone know if/why this technology wouldn't be available for existing dual-graphics MacBook Pros? I was under the impression the existing cards were capable of auto-switching, and that similar PC latptops can already do it. I thought it was more a software/graphics issue with MacOS X that was preventing auto-switching. It would suck if they couldn't make this technology backwards compatible via firmware updates.
Can anyone offer more light on the situation for existing laptops?
AFAIK only the 200/300M-series of GPUs are Optimus-ready.
1) Saying it's terrible is hyperbolic. Take a gander at Hulu's default 360p.
2) Offering High Profile 1080p in 2010 the day after the show airs just isn't going to happen.
3) I don't understand this desire for Blu-ray on a PC. It's a home theater technology. There was a time when CDs and DVDs had a great cost-to-MB ratio for consumers, but that time is gone and Blu-ray in computers is simply an expensive option, that offers little to no benefit with plenty of negatives to go along with it.
4) Most PCs that Apple sells are 13" notebooks with 1280x800 resolution displays. What good does a High Profile 1080p video going to do on such a small display. Then there is the UX issues that have to be dealt with, like using a Blu-ray player to watch a movie on a long flight just to find that the battery dies before you get to the ending.
5) Apple will remove the optical drives from notebooks before it adds AACS support. Optical drives take up a huge part of the machine, they require 5" of port-side space for disc entry thus reducing engineering options, they use a lot of power, are finicky devices with moving parts likely toward the top of repairs Apple Care does, they read and write very slowly compared to storage mediums, they are loud and discs can be pricey. It's great for the home theater, but not for a consumer PC.
6) BRDs are not selling well in the non-Mac PC space. Other vendors offer them but they build systems that allow for the option of cheap BRDs. Apple doesn't have that luxury since they have a 9.5mm ultra-slim slot-loading optical drive.
You can get BR in laptops for under $700, with a Core i3 and Intel HD GMA, and for less than $1000, you can get a Sony Vaio with a Core i5-430 (with HT), 4 GB DDR3 RAM (exp to 8 GB), 500 GB HD, 14.1" 1600x900 res screen, 512 MB dedicated Nvidia GT 330M, and HDMI out.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Sony+-+V...&skuId=9724013
Here's one that has BR for $700:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834152179
It's not an expensive option anymore, and the rest of the market is moving along with Core i and dedicated GPU's already.
I'm actually seriously considering that Sony, as it has nearly everything I want in it, especially since it's small and has a higher res screen, and I like the color.
You can get BR in laptops for under $700, with a Core i3 and Intel HD GMA, and for less than $1000, you can get a Sony Vaio with a Core i5-430 (with HT), 4 GB DDR3 RAM (exp to 8 GB), 500 GB HD, 14.1" 1600x900 res screen, 512 MB dedicated Nvidia GT 330M, and HDMI out.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Sony+-+V...&skuId=9724013
Here's one that has BR for $700:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834152179
It's not an expensive option anymore, and the rest of the market is moving along with Core i and dedicated GPU's already.
I'm actually seriously considering that Sony, as it has nearly everything I want in it, especially since it's small and has a higher res screen, and I like the color.
Yes, the cost has come down, as technology tends to do, but for that drive to work in a Mac Apple would have to completely alter it's signature engineering and aesthetic choices. They use 9.5mm ultra-slim slot-laoding drives. I don't think they're going to use a huge tray-loading drive just add Blu-ray.
And while I'd love for BRD to end up in Macs as an option, even though I'd never get one, I think they are going to be removing the internal optical drive from their notebook line before that. The longer they wait the more likely that will happen and they haven't even added AACS to Mac OS X so 3rd-party BRD for movies can be used, which would alleviate half the issue people have.
There is at least a Dell or Sony with a CD/DVD/BR combo drive that is 9.5mm high, but it was tray-loading if I recall correctly, and that only game out a year ago. Slot-laoding always comes later because of the technology. Have they been released? Who is making them and how much are they?