Im an all Apple Shop... I own a MBP, I've owned all 3 iPhones and now Im on a HTC Hero.. I only changed because the iPhone plan was too expensive.. I loved my iPhone..
THIS is just retarded on Apples part. Come on guys, without competition, what would we have? I really hope the FTC steps in and takes control over the situation.. Limiting growth on another corporation just because they sell a phone that functions like yours? I must say that Android and the iPhone are pretty far from the same.. This is just like Apple who keeps the OS closed so se cant FULLY use our equipment that WE pay for.
Oh whoop de doo!. Apple lost the look-feel patent dispute with Microsoft yonks ago. ....
As with the patents though, it's the details that count.
There is a popular misconception that Apple lost that suit because "you can't patent look and feel" when that isn't the case at all. The suit was "settled" (not "lost"), because Apple could have been construed to have given Microsoft permission to copy them in an agreement Apple signed with Microsoft over technology sharing. They settled out of court because of that, not because "look and feel" lawsuits are inherently un-winable.
If Apple has a patent on the "look and feel" of iPhone interface elements (they do), and valid trademarks on the "look and feel" of the iPhone (they do as of last week), there is nothing to stop them from forcing the copy-cats to stop copying them. In fact it's likely to be a slam dunk.
That being said, they don't appear to be doing that. They are being nice and only suing HTC on specific technologies that were pilfered, and don't seem to care about "look and feel" so far.
Looks like the legal team has an idea for how to spend that $40 billion in cash!
Anyone else noticed the attacks on Android that are springing up?
A week or so a go we had a pure FUD hatchet job attempted on the Nexus One, erroneously claiming it only had a 16 bit display. I wonder who paid for that bit of 'research'?
Now we have a full frontal attack on the manufacturer of the Nexus One who also are producing Android phones.
alm, they just didn't see them as a real threat. Htc coupled with Android is a very real threat. It's on the table. And I agree with the above statements that the Implementation of multitouch to the N1 in addition to Sense UI probably tipped the scale.
I think that Apple didn't bother going after Palm because Palm was "only" piggybacking onto iTunes, not stealing their products. It really benefitted Apple in a minor way: more iTunes users, more iTunes Store sales. I'm surprised that Apple didn't license an iTunes "key" to Palm for them to use iTunes.
All Apple needed do was tweak iTunes a bit and break the Palm connections. A few hours of programmers' time versus the bottomless money pit of legal action. Sounds like a deal.
Maybe Apple was cutting Jon Rubinstein some slack, too.
Quadra's post was that only Apple is able to create innovative things and field them to the consumer. All the Google items I listed have become "game changers" in their own right.
The success of Apple can, in part, be attributed to its partnership with Google (Maps and Search).
And you would argue that those services are as usable/functional/accurate as Google's versions?
They're relics of the internet now, just like Alta Vista and Netscape. There's a reason why people don't use them much anymore. Yahoo's still fighting to be relevant these days.
Appearently Engadget has posted that HTC says this a complete suprise.
The list of devices is: Nexus One, Touch Pro, Touch Diamond, Touch Pro2, Tilt II, Pure, Imagio, Dream / G1, myTouch 3G, Hero, HD2, and Droid Eris
One should note those devices run Android or Windows Mobile. Some with Sense and some without.
Again, if they are running without Sense, shouldn't Apple be after Microsoft or Google.
I guess it could get really ugly if Microsoft or Google get involved. I'd imagine they would want to if they feel the sale of their devices could get stopped.
Some of the things mentioned don't even deserve a patent.
"Unlocking A Device By Performing Gestures On An Unlock Image"
Patents ought be novel and innovative, and yet they seem to have been granted coverage over something that hardly smacks of innovation.
Remember this: the leaking out of ideas (whether patented or not) is good for the whole industry and for consumers as a whole. Ideas want to flow from one company and one product to the next, and with the movement of staff and reverse engineering of products they always do.
Sure patenting allows some healthy capture of initial profits but there is also plenty of ideas that that ought be beyond being captured by one company in perpetuity, and I think this example is one of those.
So based on the list I posted above from Gizmodo, they are for example suing on the lockscreen found on touch screen phones.
To me, that sounds pretty frivolous.
It also sounds they are just gathering all their patents and throwing them at HTC in the hope they stick.
Some of the like the Digital Camera patent are quite old. HTC has used Digital Camera for years (my Orange SPV had an included Camera you could attach).
Notice the lack of multitouch.
This just proves to me that they are for whatever reason afraid of Android.
Also reducing voltage to the processor seems quite suspect as AMD and Intel have done this for years. Yes this was issued in 2008. I know it states only a portion of the processor, but isn't this exactly what NVIDIA Tegra does?
My opinion is that we do need patent reform and that Apple should be ashamed of themselves.
Most of this has NOTHING to do with the iPhone is just an attempt to bully HTC over Android.
One. Frivolous is a matter of opinion. I think your whole argument is frivolous.
Two. So since Nokia was the first to sue Apple do you say that Nokia is bullying Apple becuase they were scared? If you're going to call a spade a spade be sure to share the love all the way around.
Three. Maybe you're right. But I think alot of people that come into an Apple forum keep missing the point. It's like going to a Batman forum board and saying that Superman is the raddest man and Batman sucks and is a big bully. I mean really, what do you think is going to happen? There's a reason that people are called fans, and sometimes that means looking over the faults no matter what they are. Obviously you are some sort of fan for Android or you wouldn't be on here posting how bad the evil Apple Corporation is. Just don't be suprised when someone goes to an Android forum or HTC forum and bad mouths them there.
Apple has innovated and has taken ideas from others, indeed. What company has not? The whole point of patent law is to facilitate this very process, by encouraging inventors to publish the details of useful and marketable ideas in open disclosures, giving them a vetted claim to priority and royalties.
Why exactly is it a "major problem" that large companies can do this? Small companies can.
Anyone can. Some years ago, Peter Roberts, a Sears store employee, independently patented (#3,208,318) the quick-release socket wrench. He made $1,000,000 in court after Sears stole it. Is that a problem to you as well?
Have you been looking at the patents over the past few years? These corporate companies have been able to patent tech that's been around for years. It has become ridiculous. This has been a major problem that has benefitted larger companies because they have a heavier influence on the marketplace.
It has got far past the point where the modern inventor cannot challenge a team of Ivy League lawyers because they can't afford the expenses.
If you look at Apple's recent history, they have lost as many lawsuits as they have won because they do take tech that is patented by other small companies. The individual inventor is handicapped no matter what you say. It is always better to have a team of high paid lawyers.
Fanboys may not admit but Apple is not always innocent in these situation. Don't think I dislike Apple. For the most part, I only buy their products because they are the best at what they do. Their needs to be some honesty on this thread.
So based on the list I posted above from Gizmodo, they are for example suing on the lockscreen found on touch screen phones.
To me, that sounds pretty frivolous.
It also sounds they are just gathering all their patents and throwing them at HTC in the hope they stick.
Some of the like the Digital Camera patent are quite old. HTC has used Digital Camera for years (my Orange SPV had an included Camera you could attach).
Notice the lack of multitouch.
This just proves to me that they are for whatever reason afraid of Android.
Also reducing voltage to the processor seems quite suspect as AMD and Intel have done this for years. Yes this was issued in 2008. I know it states only a portion of the processor, but isn't this exactly what NVIDIA Tegra does?
My opinion is that we do need patent reform and that Apple should be ashamed of themselves.
Most of this has NOTHING to do with the iPhone is just an attempt to bully HTC over Android.
You sure make it sound like Apple is the only one to sue in regards to patents.
What are you thoughts on Nokia or Kodak suing Apple. I imagine thats all fine and dandy.
I've been waiting to see what Apple would do about the copyists ...
Browsing the lawsuit docs, it gets way too technical for me to decipher. I'll be content to let the courts sort it out. Interesting to see Next listed there on the first page. A lot of the patents seem to do with object oriented programing ... Snow Leopard is mentioned a bunch, and iTunes to a lesser extent.
Remember well the initial iPhone unveiling and how near the end, Jobs touted the 200 patents that they had on various parts of it and the vow that they would protect them. I've wondered about that statement more than once in the several years that have passed since that day.
My take is that Apple hasn't patented the concept of "multi-touch", but has patented the specific algorithms used by the device to correctly interpret what users' touches mean. For example, "Touch Screen Device, Method, And Graphical User Interface For Determining Commands By Applying Heuristics." From Wikipedia, "In computer science, a heuristic algorithm, or simply a heuristic, is an algorithm that is able to produce an acceptable solution to a problem in many practical scenarios, in the fashion of a general heuristic, but for which there is no formal proof of its correctness..."
Obviously Apple can't patent the idea of touching a screen, but I think what Apple has patented is how the iPhone intreprets such a touch. The titile of the patent says, "Determining Commands By Applying Heuristics." Is this a click? Does the user mean to scroll down? Is he flicking to the next photo? Is this a pinch? Is this a random touch to be ignored?
I would think that HTC would have to divulge what it's algorithms are in order to prove they didn't copy Apple's.
You sure make it sound like Apple is the only one to sue in regards to patents.
What are you thoughts on Nokia or Kodak suing Apple. I imagine thats all fine and dandy.
If you would reread what I posted, you will notice something about PATENT REFORM listed in there.
That is my opinion on all of this. I think Nokia shouldn't have sued Apple, though I can understand it slightly in light of this. Perhaps Nokia was scared Apple would sue them and thought if they beat them to it they would have a leg up. Especially consider that Nokia doesn't sell anything really in the US so a loss wouldn't kill them.
As for Kodak, based right next door (I live in Rochester, NY). I think they have had plenty of time to innovate and have lost patent suits before (I think someone mentioned prior in the thread a quite large suit was lost way back in the day). I think Kodak should have seen things coming. They had plenty of time back when AOL was selling crap digital cameras to join the croud. The didn't until digital cameras got better and were really in and thus lost marketshare.
As for HTC, I honestly believe the knew touch was the next big thing and had planned that direction. Obviously, Microsoft was a stumbling block (though Photon, was prototyped inside Microsoft in 2005 before the iPhone was public and was quite a touch friendly version of Windows Mobile, though I will say I'm glad they ditched in favour of WP7S which I think is way better) as well the fact that HTC had never done software before. So to claim that HTC mastered touch software in 6 months after the announcement of the iPhone is just pure idiocracy. No they had obviously planned this stop gap before WM7 which was then ditched after the iPhone showed Microsoft it need a UI revolution just not a touch version of WM6. Can the iPhone take credit for that yes, but atleast Microsoft did a completely new UI that is quite revolutionary in some aspects.
But I'll say it again. We need patent reform. Technology as we know it today is a different beast to what it was back when patent law was created. Today technology moves so fast and it is impossible not have the same ideas being created at the same time in different ways. It is also impossible to not use other ideas, unless you don't want to progress and just die. The iPhone and other companies would not exist if Nokia was strict on its patents. They has such a huge hand in the creation of GSM. The fact is most Computer Technology patents go unenforced until a patent troll decides he wants money or a company fears losing or actually loses marketshare to a competitor or is about bankrupt (Kodak).
Comments
THIS is just retarded on Apples part. Come on guys, without competition, what would we have? I really hope the FTC steps in and takes control over the situation.. Limiting growth on another corporation just because they sell a phone that functions like yours? I must say that Android and the iPhone are pretty far from the same.. This is just like Apple who keeps the OS closed so se cant FULLY use our equipment that WE pay for.
Sorry, but Apple needs to lose this one..
Oh whoop de doo!. Apple lost the look-feel patent dispute with Microsoft yonks ago. ....
As with the patents though, it's the details that count.
There is a popular misconception that Apple lost that suit because "you can't patent look and feel" when that isn't the case at all. The suit was "settled" (not "lost"), because Apple could have been construed to have given Microsoft permission to copy them in an agreement Apple signed with Microsoft over technology sharing. They settled out of court because of that, not because "look and feel" lawsuits are inherently un-winable.
If Apple has a patent on the "look and feel" of iPhone interface elements (they do), and valid trademarks on the "look and feel" of the iPhone (they do as of last week), there is nothing to stop them from forcing the copy-cats to stop copying them. In fact it's likely to be a slam dunk.
That being said, they don't appear to be doing that. They are being nice and only suing HTC on specific technologies that were pilfered, and don't seem to care about "look and feel" so far.
Yeah! Game changing innovations just like Google Maps, Google Search, and Google Navigation! Oh wait...
because mapquest and Yahoo didn't exist?
Looks like the legal team has an idea for how to spend that $40 billion in cash!
Anyone else noticed the attacks on Android that are springing up?
A week or so a go we had a pure FUD hatchet job attempted on the Nexus One, erroneously claiming it only had a 16 bit display. I wonder who paid for that bit of 'research'?
Now we have a full frontal attack on the manufacturer of the Nexus One who also are producing Android phones.
Appleis scared of Android?
Check yor meds buddy.... it's time.
"Google's don't be evil mantra? It's bullshit! They're trying to kill us!" - Steve Jobs at a recent town hall meeting post iPad conference.
alm, they just didn't see them as a real threat. Htc coupled with Android is a very real threat. It's on the table. And I agree with the above statements that the Implementation of multitouch to the N1 in addition to Sense UI probably tipped the scale.
I think that Apple didn't bother going after Palm because Palm was "only" piggybacking onto iTunes, not stealing their products. It really benefitted Apple in a minor way: more iTunes users, more iTunes Store sales. I'm surprised that Apple didn't license an iTunes "key" to Palm for them to use iTunes.
All Apple needed do was tweak iTunes a bit and break the Palm connections. A few hours of programmers' time versus the bottomless money pit of legal action. Sounds like a deal.
Maybe Apple was cutting Jon Rubinstein some slack, too.
because mapquest and Yahoo didn't exist?
Even more to my point!
Quadra's post was that only Apple is able to create innovative things and field them to the consumer. All the Google items I listed have become "game changers" in their own right.
The success of Apple can, in part, be attributed to its partnership with Google (Maps and Search).
because mapquest and Yahoo didn't exist?
And you would argue that those services are as usable/functional/accurate as Google's versions?
They're relics of the internet now, just like Alta Vista and Netscape. There's a reason why people don't use them much anymore. Yahoo's still fighting to be relevant these days.
Here we go!
"We've patented the hell out of this thing"
Finally! Apple wakes up and takes action.
Totally agree!
The list of devices is: Nexus One, Touch Pro, Touch Diamond, Touch Pro2, Tilt II, Pure, Imagio, Dream / G1, myTouch 3G, Hero, HD2, and Droid Eris
One should note those devices run Android or Windows Mobile. Some with Sense and some without.
Again, if they are running without Sense, shouldn't Apple be after Microsoft or Google.
I guess it could get really ugly if Microsoft or Google get involved. I'd imagine they would want to if they feel the sale of their devices could get stopped.
"Unlocking A Device By Performing Gestures On An Unlock Image"
Patents ought be novel and innovative, and yet they seem to have been granted coverage over something that hardly smacks of innovation.
Remember this: the leaking out of ideas (whether patented or not) is good for the whole industry and for consumers as a whole. Ideas want to flow from one company and one product to the next, and with the movement of staff and reverse engineering of products they always do.
Sure patenting allows some healthy capture of initial profits but there is also plenty of ideas that that ought be beyond being captured by one company in perpetuity, and I think this example is one of those.
"Google's don't be evil mantra? It's bullshit! They're trying to kill us!" - Steve Jobs at a recent town hall meeting post iPad conference.
Yet I get called an idiot and told to check my meds when I dare mention this could be because Apple is scared of Android.
So based on the list I posted above from Gizmodo, they are for example suing on the lockscreen found on touch screen phones.
To me, that sounds pretty frivolous.
It also sounds they are just gathering all their patents and throwing them at HTC in the hope they stick.
Some of the like the Digital Camera patent are quite old. HTC has used Digital Camera for years (my Orange SPV had an included Camera you could attach).
Notice the lack of multitouch.
This just proves to me that they are for whatever reason afraid of Android.
Also reducing voltage to the processor seems quite suspect as AMD and Intel have done this for years. Yes this was issued in 2008. I know it states only a portion of the processor, but isn't this exactly what NVIDIA Tegra does?
My opinion is that we do need patent reform and that Apple should be ashamed of themselves.
Most of this has NOTHING to do with the iPhone is just an attempt to bully HTC over Android.
One. Frivolous is a matter of opinion. I think your whole argument is frivolous.
Two. So since Nokia was the first to sue Apple do you say that Nokia is bullying Apple becuase they were scared? If you're going to call a spade a spade be sure to share the love all the way around.
Three. Maybe you're right. But I think alot of people that come into an Apple forum keep missing the point. It's like going to a Batman forum board and saying that Superman is the raddest man and Batman sucks and is a big bully. I mean really, what do you think is going to happen? There's a reason that people are called fans, and sometimes that means looking over the faults no matter what they are. Obviously you are some sort of fan for Android or you wouldn't be on here posting how bad the evil Apple Corporation is. Just don't be suprised when someone goes to an Android forum or HTC forum and bad mouths them there.
Just food for thought.
Yet I get called an idiot and told to check my meds when I dare mention this could be because Apple is scared of Android.
Check your meds, idiot. Android is on it's way out. It's finished! Iphone OS RULEZ!
</sarcasm>
Apple has innovated and has taken ideas from others, indeed. What company has not? The whole point of patent law is to facilitate this very process, by encouraging inventors to publish the details of useful and marketable ideas in open disclosures, giving them a vetted claim to priority and royalties.
Why exactly is it a "major problem" that large companies can do this? Small companies can.
Anyone can. Some years ago, Peter Roberts, a Sears store employee, independently patented (#3,208,318) the quick-release socket wrench. He made $1,000,000 in court after Sears stole it. Is that a problem to you as well?
Have you been looking at the patents over the past few years? These corporate companies have been able to patent tech that's been around for years. It has become ridiculous. This has been a major problem that has benefitted larger companies because they have a heavier influence on the marketplace.
It has got far past the point where the modern inventor cannot challenge a team of Ivy League lawyers because they can't afford the expenses.
If you look at Apple's recent history, they have lost as many lawsuits as they have won because they do take tech that is patented by other small companies. The individual inventor is handicapped no matter what you say. It is always better to have a team of high paid lawyers.
Fanboys may not admit but Apple is not always innocent in these situation. Don't think I dislike Apple. For the most part, I only buy their products because they are the best at what they do. Their needs to be some honesty on this thread.
So based on the list I posted above from Gizmodo, they are for example suing on the lockscreen found on touch screen phones.
To me, that sounds pretty frivolous.
It also sounds they are just gathering all their patents and throwing them at HTC in the hope they stick.
Some of the like the Digital Camera patent are quite old. HTC has used Digital Camera for years (my Orange SPV had an included Camera you could attach).
Notice the lack of multitouch.
This just proves to me that they are for whatever reason afraid of Android.
Also reducing voltage to the processor seems quite suspect as AMD and Intel have done this for years. Yes this was issued in 2008. I know it states only a portion of the processor, but isn't this exactly what NVIDIA Tegra does?
My opinion is that we do need patent reform and that Apple should be ashamed of themselves.
Most of this has NOTHING to do with the iPhone is just an attempt to bully HTC over Android.
You sure make it sound like Apple is the only one to sue in regards to patents.
What are you thoughts on Nokia or Kodak suing Apple. I imagine thats all fine and dandy.
Browsing the lawsuit docs, it gets way too technical for me to decipher. I'll be content to let the courts sort it out. Interesting to see Next listed there on the first page. A lot of the patents seem to do with object oriented programing ... Snow Leopard is mentioned a bunch, and iTunes to a lesser extent.
Remember well the initial iPhone unveiling and how near the end, Jobs touted the 200 patents that they had on various parts of it and the vow that they would protect them. I've wondered about that statement more than once in the several years that have passed since that day.
I trust them to have their ducks in a row.
Obviously Apple can't patent the idea of touching a screen, but I think what Apple has patented is how the iPhone intreprets such a touch. The titile of the patent says, "Determining Commands By Applying Heuristics." Is this a click? Does the user mean to scroll down? Is he flicking to the next photo? Is this a pinch? Is this a random touch to be ignored?
I would think that HTC would have to divulge what it's algorithms are in order to prove they didn't copy Apple's.
You sure make it sound like Apple is the only one to sue in regards to patents.
What are you thoughts on Nokia or Kodak suing Apple. I imagine thats all fine and dandy.
If you would reread what I posted, you will notice something about PATENT REFORM listed in there.
That is my opinion on all of this. I think Nokia shouldn't have sued Apple, though I can understand it slightly in light of this. Perhaps Nokia was scared Apple would sue them and thought if they beat them to it they would have a leg up. Especially consider that Nokia doesn't sell anything really in the US so a loss wouldn't kill them.
As for Kodak, based right next door (I live in Rochester, NY). I think they have had plenty of time to innovate and have lost patent suits before (I think someone mentioned prior in the thread a quite large suit was lost way back in the day). I think Kodak should have seen things coming. They had plenty of time back when AOL was selling crap digital cameras to join the croud. The didn't until digital cameras got better and were really in and thus lost marketshare.
As for HTC, I honestly believe the knew touch was the next big thing and had planned that direction. Obviously, Microsoft was a stumbling block (though Photon, was prototyped inside Microsoft in 2005 before the iPhone was public and was quite a touch friendly version of Windows Mobile, though I will say I'm glad they ditched in favour of WP7S which I think is way better) as well the fact that HTC had never done software before. So to claim that HTC mastered touch software in 6 months after the announcement of the iPhone is just pure idiocracy. No they had obviously planned this stop gap before WM7 which was then ditched after the iPhone showed Microsoft it need a UI revolution just not a touch version of WM6. Can the iPhone take credit for that yes, but atleast Microsoft did a completely new UI that is quite revolutionary in some aspects.
But I'll say it again. We need patent reform. Technology as we know it today is a different beast to what it was back when patent law was created. Today technology moves so fast and it is impossible not have the same ideas being created at the same time in different ways. It is also impossible to not use other ideas, unless you don't want to progress and just die. The iPhone and other companies would not exist if Nokia was strict on its patents. They has such a huge hand in the creation of GSM. The fact is most Computer Technology patents go unenforced until a patent troll decides he wants money or a company fears losing or actually loses marketshare to a competitor or is about bankrupt (Kodak).