Uh, I don't know; looks like maybe I am. I'm not going into low-level details, but from the big picture I think two things are true and very important:
1. Apple re-invents user interfaces and the whole world follows.
2. Apple is more savvy about IP law than they used to be
And the conclusion I draw from the above two premises are:
APPL shareholders will make a boatload of $
well said.. this isn't about 40 billion dollars in cash that they have.. which has nothing to do with the litigation potential here.. this is about sales.. it is about market saturation of smart phones and how long it will take to get to a saturation level that slows revenue and profit growth.. The smartphone revolutionizes mobil communication and applications .. the peak of growth percentages will arrive late next year or 2012 with luck.. watch for predictions of slowdown in smart phone growth by the end of this year - with several manufacturers dropping out with no shelf space and low world sales..
apple is protecting their leadership position as best they know how.. and trying to capitalize on every bit of their technology that is patented..
even a small slow down of competition entering the field with "iphone killers" is worth the costs of litigation and risks of losing.. because.. by the time this stuff gets settled in the future, everyone in the world will already have purchased their first, sometimes second, and third smart phone.. and the smartphone business will be just like the existing commodity driven flip phones that Nokia is selling to the world and bragging about being the world's biggest phone builder - with less than 15% YOY revenue growth and crappy bottom line profit.. that is the future.. when apple says the same thing and another technology is driving growth and the future of communication..
But in the mean time.. Apple is going to continue paying investors a handsome bundle of cash in stock price increases..
If you check AAPL's financials, you will find that, by now 1Q10, it's cash and near-cash position should be over $42 billion. It was $39.8 billion (+/-) at 31/12/09.
Near-cash is short-term and other easily liquidated investments. Highly saleable and easily converted into cash when necessary.
A gargantuan liquid reserve sufficient to buy or beat up any thieving gargantuan copyists.
OK?
Chandra
Thank you for the additional info.
I guess you missed the point I was trying to make. It's not the "who's got most cash" pissing contest.
Like I said, the exact figures isn't what's interesting. Although it is mildly interesting to try to understand how the different "cash" declarations differ from each other. The relative sizes and size differences are more interesting.
To make comparisons, it's still more useful to use comparative data from reputable sites instead of us amateurs trying to interpret the data that is reported by the companies (a little differently by each). Forbes or Bloomberg or the like I believe should give fairly validly comparable data shouldn't it?
It's not the exact figures (the forbes ones seemed to be more recent) that is of interest, it's the ballpark of the figures. The "cash" is also about what you count into it (albeit I'm no expert on it). But if you count the cash + marketable securities from here: http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/js...apl&period=qtr, you get 24,8B for 2009 (Nok being 13B). If you do the total current assets, Nok and Apple are 33B companies with Nok being marginally (0.5B) larger. Google is a 30B "asset" company and MSFT is a 52,5B company. Just replace aapl with nok, goog or msft in the URL to see comparable numbers for each.
My 3 minute search was to prove sukaram's false claim: "companies that are so small that Apple's cash is bigger than their market cap" means that "gargantuan" Apple has "gargantuan" adversaries in the Patent battles if this keeps building up the way it has for the last couple of months (big boys suing one another directly or indirectly).
HTC is smaller (around 3B), but that is not the only player in this.
Regs, Jarkko
You are good at neither reading either financials, nor the article (based on which you are commenting).
As has been pointed out, Apple's cash and cash equivalents is at least $40B.
Equally, the article specifically states: "Apple launched a level of discussions with top handset makers to "underscore its growing displeasure at seeing iPhone-related IP infringed." Google and MSFT are not handset makers. The article obviously means:
Nokia: 52B mkt cap (and Apple is already in patent litigation with them)
RIM: $41B
Motorola: 16B
Palm: <1B
Dell (?): 28B
HTC: $8B
Samsung, LG, Sony Ericsson: Data not available
The point is, none of them is 'gargantuan' in relation to Apple's cash pile. Period.
no, but the 2 guys who apple hired and did 'multitouch' developed the technology at university and it looks like the university may actually hold the patents.
If this were true, the university would have sued ages ago.
And by 'at university' are you talking as students or employees. Did the university fund their research? As there any paperwork that said university claims overship of all work by students or even employees. And where is the patent filing by this university.
Heck why not, since you know so much, actually state the names of the gentlemen and the university in question and stop being so vague.
" Google and MSFT are not handset makers. The article obviously means:
Nokia: 52B mkt cap (and Apple is already in patent litigation with them)
RIM: $41B
Motorola: 16B
Palm: <1B
Dell (?): 28B
HTC: $8B
Samsung, LG, Sony Ericsson: Data not available
The point is, none of them is 'gargantuan' in relation to Apple's cash pile. Period.
About financials: I did mention I'm no expert, I just used comparative data from Forbes. Your point was about Apple's cash being bigger than the others' cap. If you don't take Nokia, RIM, Google or MSFT into account, you're correct.
An honest straight question: Where in the forbes figures do you see Apple as having 40B in cash? I know that by counting certain lines in Apple's yearly report that can be done, but when you look at comparative reports from 12/2009 at forbes, where is it?
The article : "Reiner also cautioned that Apple's approach could backfire if taken too far, as entering into a legal battle with some of the biggest names in the cell phone business would be unwise.
But it also brings Apple a step closer to a head-on legal confrontation with an array of gargantuan adversaries"
We can agree to disagree on the interpretation of said sentences especially if you regard HTC, Motorola, Dell and Palm to be "some of the biggest names in mobile biz", but if you read a few lines before in the article: "Microsoft has also told potential customers it would support them legally if they, like HTC, were hit with a lawsuit over intellectual property", it to me is pretty clear what the article intended. But you see it differently I guess and that's fine.
I don't see the big three or four as being "gargantuan" _compared_ to Apple's pile. I just see them as "gargantuan" period. Just like Apple is "gargantuan"
If you check AAPL's financials, you will find that, by now 1Q10, it's cash and near-cash position should be over $42 billion. It was $39.8 billion (+/-) at 31/12/09.
Near-cash is short-term and other easily liquidated investments. Highly saleable and easily converted into cash when necessary.
A gargantuan liquid reserve sufficient to buy or beat up any thieving gargantuan copyists.
OK?
Chandra
News flash. Apple to buy google nokia samsung Microsoft and kodak.
FYI. The point is that Apple does not have the cash reserves to take on all those companies at the same time in an all out patent war
News flash. Apple to buy google nokia samsung Microsoft and kodak.
FYI. The point is that Apple does not have the cash reserves to take on all those companies at the same time in an all out patent war
That's a fair point to consider. One-on-one, Apple would have the cash to outlast most of these companies. But if war breaks out, it'll definitely put Apple up against multiple companies at the same time.
Even if Apple ultimately doesn't win its patent cases, they do get the advantage of spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt about their competitors. If they are able to delay competing products or cause competitors to limit the functionality of those products, then this strategy is probably worth it because it gives Apple more time to build marketshare.
Isn't this the mindset that got IBM and later Microsoft in the trouble they landed? IBM recovered by being innovative and competetive. Microsoft is slowly showing signs of it - Windows 7, Courier (if they are able to deliver), XBox Motion sensor. Apple seems to be resting on its laurels while Android has leapfrogged it. If the iPhone is unable to catch up or go past the Android in 4.0, lawsuits are not going to help prevent it from sliding even further behind.
Isn't this the mindset that got IBM and later Microsoft in the trouble they landed? IBM recovered by being innovative and competetive. Microsoft is slowly showing signs of it - Windows 7, Courier (if they are able to deliver), XBox Motion sensor. Apple seems to be resting on its laurels while Android has leapfrogged it. If the iPhone is unable to catch up or go past the Android in 4.0, lawsuits are not going to help prevent it from sliding even further behind.
An honest straight question: Where in the forbes figures do you see Apple as having 40B in cash? I know that by counting certain lines in Apple's yearly report that can be done, but when you look at comparative reports from 12/2009 at forbes, where is it?
In my view, it is best to not look at cookie-cutter sources such as Forbes (they are a good business publication, but not great for data). The best is to simply go to the source, i.e., Apple's (or any other company's) investor relations (e.g., http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....7&p=irol-index).
The latest 10Q, filed January 25, 2010 shows (p. 3):
Cash $7.6B
Short term marketable securities $17.2B
Long term marketable securities $15.0B
or about $40B in total. It is probably fair to speculate that it's gone up by another few billion since then.
Failing that, the financial provided by Yahoo or Google are not bad either (but I have occasionally found mistakes there too).
""Apple's legal maneuvering appears to have temporarily retarded its rivals' hot pursuit of the iPhone," Reiner said. "But it also brings Apple a step closer to a head-on legal confrontation with an array of gargantuan adversaries. Now that it has made its point, Apple may want to go back to saber rattling."
The 5th largest company in the U.S. fears no one!!!
Google and MSFT are not handset makers. The article obviously means:
.
Except that both Google and MS have said that they would offer support to companies who get sued. One can debate how much they are willing to pony up, but it is a bit naive to think that Google and MS are going to watch HTC go under when they are the probably the largest maker of handsets that use their respective OSs.
Except that both Google and MS have said that they would offer support to companies who get sued. One can debate how much they are willing to pony up, but it is a bit naive to think that Google and MS are going to watch HTC go under when they are the probably the largest maker of handsets that use their respective OSs.
It is utterly unlikely that they will waste their corporate resources and legal talent to fight on someone else's behalf. No sensible company will do so. They will wait and see, and gather the arsenal for their turn, if/when it occurs. Maybe they'll go as far as filing a brief defending handset makers, that's about it.
Comments
Uh, I don't know; looks like maybe I am. I'm not going into low-level details, but from the big picture I think two things are true and very important:
1. Apple re-invents user interfaces and the whole world follows.
2. Apple is more savvy about IP law than they used to be
And the conclusion I draw from the above two premises are:
APPL shareholders will make a boatload of $
well said.. this isn't about 40 billion dollars in cash that they have.. which has nothing to do with the litigation potential here.. this is about sales.. it is about market saturation of smart phones and how long it will take to get to a saturation level that slows revenue and profit growth.. The smartphone revolutionizes mobil communication and applications .. the peak of growth percentages will arrive late next year or 2012 with luck.. watch for predictions of slowdown in smart phone growth by the end of this year - with several manufacturers dropping out with no shelf space and low world sales..
apple is protecting their leadership position as best they know how.. and trying to capitalize on every bit of their technology that is patented..
even a small slow down of competition entering the field with "iphone killers" is worth the costs of litigation and risks of losing.. because.. by the time this stuff gets settled in the future, everyone in the world will already have purchased their first, sometimes second, and third smart phone.. and the smartphone business will be just like the existing commodity driven flip phones that Nokia is selling to the world and bragging about being the world's biggest phone builder - with less than 15% YOY revenue growth and crappy bottom line profit.. that is the future.. when apple says the same thing and another technology is driving growth and the future of communication..
But in the mean time.. Apple is going to continue paying investors a handsome bundle of cash in stock price increases..
@ jahonen
If you check AAPL's financials, you will find that, by now 1Q10, it's cash and near-cash position should be over $42 billion. It was $39.8 billion (+/-) at 31/12/09.
Near-cash is short-term and other easily liquidated investments. Highly saleable and easily converted into cash when necessary.
A gargantuan liquid reserve sufficient to buy or beat up any thieving gargantuan copyists.
OK?
Chandra
Thank you for the additional info.
I guess you missed the point I was trying to make. It's not the "who's got most cash" pissing contest.
Like I said, the exact figures isn't what's interesting. Although it is mildly interesting to try to understand how the different "cash" declarations differ from each other. The relative sizes and size differences are more interesting.
To make comparisons, it's still more useful to use comparative data from reputable sites instead of us amateurs trying to interpret the data that is reported by the companies (a little differently by each). Forbes or Bloomberg or the like I believe should give fairly validly comparable data shouldn't it?
Regs, Jarkko
It's not the exact figures (the forbes ones seemed to be more recent) that is of interest, it's the ballpark of the figures. The "cash" is also about what you count into it (albeit I'm no expert on it). But if you count the cash + marketable securities from here: http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/js...apl&period=qtr, you get 24,8B for 2009 (Nok being 13B). If you do the total current assets, Nok and Apple are 33B companies with Nok being marginally (0.5B) larger. Google is a 30B "asset" company and MSFT is a 52,5B company. Just replace aapl with nok, goog or msft in the URL to see comparable numbers for each.
My 3 minute search was to prove sukaram's false claim: "companies that are so small that Apple's cash is bigger than their market cap" means that "gargantuan" Apple has "gargantuan" adversaries in the Patent battles if this keeps building up the way it has for the last couple of months (big boys suing one another directly or indirectly).
HTC is smaller (around 3B), but that is not the only player in this.
Regs, Jarkko
You are good at neither reading either financials, nor the article (based on which you are commenting).
As has been pointed out, Apple's cash and cash equivalents is at least $40B.
Equally, the article specifically states: "Apple launched a level of discussions with top handset makers to "underscore its growing displeasure at seeing iPhone-related IP infringed." Google and MSFT are not handset makers. The article obviously means:
Nokia: 52B mkt cap (and Apple is already in patent litigation with them)
RIM: $41B
Motorola: 16B
Palm: <1B
Dell (?): 28B
HTC: $8B
Samsung, LG, Sony Ericsson: Data not available
The point is, none of them is 'gargantuan' in relation to Apple's cash pile. Period.
no, but the 2 guys who apple hired and did 'multitouch' developed the technology at university and it looks like the university may actually hold the patents.
rofl
'it looks like'
Yeah that's a strong and informed statement.
If this were true, the university would have sued ages ago.
And by 'at university' are you talking as students or employees. Did the university fund their research? As there any paperwork that said university claims overship of all work by students or even employees. And where is the patent filing by this university.
Heck why not, since you know so much, actually state the names of the gentlemen and the university in question and stop being so vague.
here is a more recent article. read on!
http://industry.bnet.com/technology/...-shaky-ground/
I never use ignore lists. I prefer to choose to reply or not to
[CENTER]Think Different
" Google and MSFT are not handset makers. The article obviously means:
Nokia: 52B mkt cap (and Apple is already in patent litigation with them)
RIM: $41B
Motorola: 16B
Palm: <1B
Dell (?): 28B
HTC: $8B
Samsung, LG, Sony Ericsson: Data not available
The point is, none of them is 'gargantuan' in relation to Apple's cash pile. Period.
About financials: I did mention I'm no expert, I just used comparative data from Forbes. Your point was about Apple's cash being bigger than the others' cap. If you don't take Nokia, RIM, Google or MSFT into account, you're correct.
An honest straight question: Where in the forbes figures do you see Apple as having 40B in cash? I know that by counting certain lines in Apple's yearly report that can be done, but when you look at comparative reports from 12/2009 at forbes, where is it?
The article : "Reiner also cautioned that Apple's approach could backfire if taken too far, as entering into a legal battle with some of the biggest names in the cell phone business would be unwise.
But it also brings Apple a step closer to a head-on legal confrontation with an array of gargantuan adversaries"
We can agree to disagree on the interpretation of said sentences especially if you regard HTC, Motorola, Dell and Palm to be "some of the biggest names in mobile biz", but if you read a few lines before in the article: "Microsoft has also told potential customers it would support them legally if they, like HTC, were hit with a lawsuit over intellectual property", it to me is pretty clear what the article intended. But you see it differently I guess and that's fine.
I don't see the big three or four as being "gargantuan" _compared_ to Apple's pile. I just see them as "gargantuan" period. Just like Apple is "gargantuan"
Regs, Jarkko
here is a more recent article. read on!
http://industry.bnet.com/technology/...-shaky-ground/
Interesting read... From the other links on the site, there are articles saying MS actually filed for a multitouch patent before Apple did?
I wouldn't be surprised if HTC's lawyers used this information in some way. It would guarantee MS being drawed into the Apple v. HTC lawsuit.
[CENTER]Think Different
Well...not so much these days, eh?
@ jahonen
If you check AAPL's financials, you will find that, by now 1Q10, it's cash and near-cash position should be over $42 billion. It was $39.8 billion (+/-) at 31/12/09.
Near-cash is short-term and other easily liquidated investments. Highly saleable and easily converted into cash when necessary.
A gargantuan liquid reserve sufficient to buy or beat up any thieving gargantuan copyists.
OK?
Chandra
News flash. Apple to buy google nokia samsung Microsoft and kodak.
FYI. The point is that Apple does not have the cash reserves to take on all those companies at the same time in an all out patent war
News flash. Apple to buy google nokia samsung Microsoft and kodak.
FYI. The point is that Apple does not have the cash reserves to take on all those companies at the same time in an all out patent war
That's a fair point to consider. One-on-one, Apple would have the cash to outlast most of these companies. But if war breaks out, it'll definitely put Apple up against multiple companies at the same time.
Even if Apple ultimately doesn't win its patent cases, they do get the advantage of spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt about their competitors. If they are able to delay competing products or cause competitors to limit the functionality of those products, then this strategy is probably worth it because it gives Apple more time to build marketshare.
Isn't this the mindset that got IBM and later Microsoft in the trouble they landed? IBM recovered by being innovative and competetive. Microsoft is slowly showing signs of it - Windows 7, Courier (if they are able to deliver), XBox Motion sensor. Apple seems to be resting on its laurels while Android has leapfrogged it. If the iPhone is unable to catch up or go past the Android in 4.0, lawsuits are not going to help prevent it from sliding even further behind.
Palm: <1B
Damn! They are closer to $900M right now and I think they are losing $150M a quarter. No wonder Apple hasn't sued them yet.
Isn't this the mindset that got IBM and later Microsoft in the trouble they landed? IBM recovered by being innovative and competetive. Microsoft is slowly showing signs of it - Windows 7, Courier (if they are able to deliver), XBox Motion sensor. Apple seems to be resting on its laurels while Android has leapfrogged it. If the iPhone is unable to catch up or go past the Android in 4.0, lawsuits are not going to help prevent it from sliding even further behind.
I can't resist. In glorious Quadra610 form!
They already have.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=107664
An honest straight question: Where in the forbes figures do you see Apple as having 40B in cash? I know that by counting certain lines in Apple's yearly report that can be done, but when you look at comparative reports from 12/2009 at forbes, where is it?
In my view, it is best to not look at cookie-cutter sources such as Forbes (they are a good business publication, but not great for data). The best is to simply go to the source, i.e., Apple's (or any other company's) investor relations (e.g., http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....7&p=irol-index).
The latest 10Q, filed January 25, 2010 shows (p. 3):
Cash $7.6B
Short term marketable securities $17.2B
Long term marketable securities $15.0B
or about $40B in total. It is probably fair to speculate that it's gone up by another few billion since then.
Failing that, the financial provided by Yahoo or Google are not bad either (but I have occasionally found mistakes there too).
The 5th largest company in the U.S. fears no one!!!
Google and MSFT are not handset makers. The article obviously means:
.
Except that both Google and MS have said that they would offer support to companies who get sued. One can debate how much they are willing to pony up, but it is a bit naive to think that Google and MS are going to watch HTC go under when they are the probably the largest maker of handsets that use their respective OSs.
holy crap $223.87!!! Go Apple!
I thought it wouldn't happen until the end of the year, but it's possible AAPL will hit $250 in a month or two... maybe hit $300 by end of year?
[CENTER]Think Different
[RIGHT]Ridiculous.[/RIGHT]
Except that both Google and MS have said that they would offer support to companies who get sued. One can debate how much they are willing to pony up, but it is a bit naive to think that Google and MS are going to watch HTC go under when they are the probably the largest maker of handsets that use their respective OSs.
It is utterly unlikely that they will waste their corporate resources and legal talent to fight on someone else's behalf. No sensible company will do so. They will wait and see, and gather the arsenal for their turn, if/when it occurs. Maybe they'll go as far as filing a brief defending handset makers, that's about it.