Open source community 'hopelessly confused' by Apple-HTC suit

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  • Reply 61 of 126
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,665member
    Gah. Here we go again. Every time there's an article on the HTC lawsuit, we get all these internet armchair lawyers, huffing and puffing about how a brief gloss on the points of contention give them enough information to definitively state that they have no basis, that they're obvious, that they are negated by prior art, that next thing you know Apple will try and patent the idea of a screen, or a keyboard.



    Maybe we could have a big, bold faced sticky at the head of all of these postings, explaining that IP patent suits hinge on specific implementations, that the particulars of those implementations are likely beyond the grasp of 99% of the people posting here, and that a single sentence descriptive phrase in no way constitutes the entire case being made for a particular piece of IP.



    So if you see "Object Oriented User Interface" or the like, please, for the love of God, spare us yet another burst of outrage over Apple's overreaching attempts to patent the very air we breath, and know that there is a great mass of technical particulars regarding how this particular implementation of this particular iteration of something that might be briefly described as an "Object Oriented User Interface", that it's that particular implantation which is at dispute, and not some broad idea of the entire category.



    People. Please. I beg of you. Be less stupid.
  • Reply 62 of 126
    shubiduashubidua Posts: 157member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    That's their right. That's my right. I have posted BSD and Creative Commons licensed code, but I refuse to play in GPL projects. I also sometimes keep code for myself with an eye to potential future income generating uses. This is exactly the way the whole OS world was designed to work (except in Stallman's mind).



    I agree that it is their right, but apparently I didn't manage to include that idea in my post
  • Reply 63 of 126
    igeniusigenius Posts: 1,240member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by All Day Breakfast View Post


    I'm not sure what things your Treo did better than an iPhone but I do notice that the relative market share of the iPhone and Treo's.



    The thing I mostly miss is the ability to use a stylus when it is a better choice than a fingertip. The finger is a blunt tool and a stylus is more precise.



    There's other stuff too, like battery life, but it's been a while since I used the Treo.



    And BTW, WRT to market share, the Treo is no longer being manufactured, AFAIK.
  • Reply 64 of 126
    shubiduashubidua Posts: 157member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tomfoolery View Post


    I don't know how widespread it is, but I've definitely seen that attitude. Do you guys know about "tall poppy syndrome?" It might be something that's only talked about where I live. But the basic idea is that when somebody becomes too successful, people start to resent him. Oh sure, he's a nice guy, he loves his family, he volunteers at the soup kitchen, but he's just too good at whatever it is he does. He's makin' us look bad.



    This is an issue known on the whole planet, though it might have different names.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tomfoolery View Post


    Apple's that annoying jerk from high school who was all-state in football, captained the swim team, dated the head cheerleader and still managed to graduate valedictorian. They make it look easy, and we resent the heck out of them for it.



    Nice metaphor! Most people don't see them working their asses of, but I think that we have some really hard working guys over at infinite loop.

    The other thing is that they are not afraid to throw old stuff out of their software / hardware, which gives them a huge advantage over MS, because they try to be backwards compatible for a long time.

    Finally, they are driven by guys who want to use the stuff themselves, and this can be huge factor in motivation to do it right, that and the some people on a higher pay level willing to spend time and money on it. Furthermore they have enough imagination to come up with a cool way of how to use the stuff.
  • Reply 65 of 126
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


    Wolf, in a new note to investors, said the open source community is "hopelessly confused."





    Could have ended right there, and it would be nearly as accurate of an article.
  • Reply 66 of 126
    dr.wdr.w Posts: 1member
    Of course, Apple has no interest in licensing any of its patents and would rather shut down the competition than enable them by licensing technology. Apple is not like Nokia or Qualcomm who sue companies to get them to pay licensing fees and royalties. This lawsuit is not about generating revenues from royalties for Apple, it is about their technology and their desire to dominate the field. If they have to enforce their patents by legal means then so be it.



    If Apple wins this lawsuit, then handset manufacturers will have to design innovative workarounds and develop new technologies, and pull these products from store shelves. If Apple does prevail, then the only companies that will be able to compete with them in the short term will be Microsoft and Nokia due to their massive patent libraries. HTC will be in serious trouble and Google will have to scamper to acquire companies to gain freedom to operate via their patents. It could set Android back several years and give Maemo/Meego a huge boost.
  • Reply 67 of 126
    mark2005mark2005 Posts: 1,158member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sranger View Post


    I have thought a lot about this law suit and I finally decided that I am against Apple on this one. While I think they have the right to defend their patents ( I Own a couple of my own), I do not think they have the right to try and destroy cometition with strong arm tactics. The part that gets me is how they went to the ITC and are trying to halt the import of a competors product BEFORE they have their day in court to try and defent their patents. This seem more like extortion than a real claim of damages. Also the fact that they are going after Google through HTC is just wrong. If they have a problem with Google, then go after Google...

    ...

    However, I do not like what I see Apple doing lately. They seem to be becoming way to much of a control freek company. They seem to be becoming a company that wants to succed through fear and intimidation more than one that wants to succeed through innovation. I personally think they are becoming their own enemy. As a result of this lawsuit I have decided not to buy any more products from Apple. It is my single little (meaningless) vote against what they are doing as a company....



    Going to the ITC is a common scheme used by lots of companies nowadays because it usually acts sooner than going through the courts. Note Nokia went to the ITC. It's not Apple unique. Like it or not, the ITC has taken on the task of resolving patent disputes.



    Apple has only initiated lawsuits of any kind against three companies in the last ten years Burst.com, Psystar, and HTC. (Burst would've sued Apple if Apple hadn't acted first.) Burst and HTC are patent-related. Psystar is copyright related.



    During those same ten years, they've put a ton of resources into innovating for iTunes, iPods, iPhones, iPads, OS X, iPhone/iPad OS, iMacs, Macbooks, iLife, iWork, Apple Stores, and that includes buying other companies who were innovating. So I don't really see that they are "becoming a company that wants to succed through fear and intimidation more than one that wants to succeed through innovation." I think they're finally tired of other companies just copying their innovations. If they could figure out a way to sue MS for copying the Apple Store, they probably would've.
  • Reply 68 of 126
    im an apple fan BIg time and for a logn tiem even before teh trolls jump on the apple tree

    when the other companies been grinding the heck out of apple in court no hard anyone defended apple now you fake ass bitch ass trolls are allover teh comp that give you pc and the option to have cool stuf



    so back off pups freaking haters
  • Reply 69 of 126
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Booga View Post


    Actually the patent in question is a refinement (continuation?) of patent number 6,259,446, which was filed years before the term "Design Patterns" were even in the common geek vocabulary and before this book was written. If anything, Apple's patents serve as a basis for the book and not the other way around.



    Well, patent 6,259,446 was filed in 1992, only 2 years before the famous "Design Patterns" book was published, so it's reasonable to assume that the patterns described in the book were being used widely some time before, certainly before the patent filing. The whole idea of the design patterns book was to formalize ideas that many people had been using in one way or another for a long time. In any case, that patent is about menu systems and not about the Observer design pattern. Just because it is referenced in the later patent does not mean that you can use its dates to check for prior art!
  • Reply 70 of 126
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dr.W View Post


    This lawsuit is not about generating revenues from royalties for Apple, it is about their technology and their desire to dominate the field.



    Hmm. That raises an interesting question.



    The law says that the first person or company to invent something is entitled to a 20-year monopoly on that invention, as long as they agree to fully disclose all the details in their patent application.



    That's what the law says, and it's not a new law by any means. But is the law out of step with public opinion? In the last couple decades it seems like we've grown accustomed to technology and stuff moving at a really fast pace. Does patent law need to change to reflect that? Or on the other hand, are we in the middle of a temporary technological boom, analogous to what I gather from watching the Discovery Channel the biologists call the "Cambrian explosion?"



    A limited monopoly on a new invention seems totally fair and reasonable to me; I'm not one of those guys that says a company doesn't deserve the chance to make bank from its innovations. But is 20 years the right amount of time?



    I really don't know for sure what I think. I'm inclined to say that the 20-year patent period has worked very well for centuries, and we shouldn't go changing it willy-nilly just because things started happening really fast in the 1990s. But I'm not confident that that's right.



    I'd really like to hear what you guys think.
  • Reply 71 of 126
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,025member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by michaelab View Post


    OK, I'm a big fan of Apple and they certainly have the right to protect their IP, but most of those patents listed should never have been granted on the basis of either prior art or being totally obvious.



    I'll just take one example, Patent #6,424,354: Object-Oriented Event Notification System With Listener Registration Of Both Interests And Methods. This is nothing more than the Observer design pattern which was one of the patterns detailed in the now famous Design Patterns book by the 'Gang of Four', published in 1994, four years before the patent was applied for and 8 years before it was granted. Given that it appeared in the book in 1994 it was clearly a well known design pattern long before that. So how the hell did the USPTO grant that one??



    Apple is taking existing public domain IP and patenting it as their own ideas. That stinks. However, I realise that Apple is just playing by the system, and the US Patent system, at least as it applies to software, is rotten to the core



    I'm sure Apple patents goes a lot deeper than just the "idea". Since the "idea" existed before the patent was granted. Apple's patent actually applies to a specific way in which this "idea" is implemented. Now, if there's only one way to implement this "idea", then it was obvious and no patent should have been granted. However, if there's dozens or hundreds of different ways to implement this "idea". With some methods being better and more efficient that others.Then Apple has every right to get a patent on way they're implementing it. Microsoft, Oracle and other software companies may have their own patents on the way they do it. In which case, Google should have found their own way of doing it. Or get a license from some one that already found a way. Instead of "stealing" some ones elses way. If this proves to be the case.
  • Reply 72 of 126
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post


    Where did you think the ``Gang of Four'' got this famous Design Pattern from? They published it from a patent by NeXT. The entire Gang of Four book is a well-known design patterns book from guys tipping their hats to NeXT.



    Do you have any evidence of that?
  • Reply 73 of 126
    mactelmactel Posts: 1,275member
    Apple is getting sued left and right. What this suit amounts to is leverage against such suits from Nokia et al.
  • Reply 74 of 126
    bongobongo Posts: 158member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DavidW View Post


    Apple's patent actually applies to a specific way in which this "idea" is implemented.



    If that is so, that is exactly what is wrong about the lawsuit, at least if you believe all the articles written about it and the clucking fanbois. They all say that Apple has a patent on the very basic ideas and nobody else has the right to implement them in ANY WAY or they deserve to be sued.
  • Reply 75 of 126
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Why don't you provide PROOF of this?



    It should only take you a few years.



    HTC knowingly pushed further and further into mimicking the iPhone.



    Now they know where the boundaries are they should go back a few steps to where their Android phones were before then INNOVATE their OWN methods of doing things.



    Will Google step in?



    Now they are facing possible antitrust action from the FCC over the AdMob acquisition.



    Revenue from 75 million iPhone OS devices > revenue from Android devices.



    The iPad is coming I'm sure Google also wants a slice of that pie.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Icesnake View Post


    Every singlke one of Apples patents fail either the "obviousness" or the "prior art" test. If HTC is smart, they will go to trial (and make sure the venue is not East Texas). Then Apple will pay a lot of money to have their patents overturned.



  • Reply 76 of 126
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sranger View Post


    I have thought a lot about this law suit and I finally decided that I am against Apple on this one. While I think they have the right to defend their patents ( I Own a couple of my own), I do not think they have the right to try and destroy cometition with strong arm tactics. The part that gets me is how they went to the ITC and are trying to halt the import of a competors product BEFORE they have their day in court to try and defent their patents. This seem more like extortion than a real claim of damages. Also the fact that they are going after Google through HTC is just wrong. If they have a problem with Google, then go after Google...



    I personally ( not a patent laywer ) think the claims made by Apple are weak, to general and the patnets should never have been granted. I personally do not think they they should hold up in court. I say should because in a cout of law, justice rarely has anything to do with it.



    I do realize that Apple ( or any big company ) could care less about what I think. Last year I switched from a PC and bought a Macbook and liked it. It bought a MacMini for my entertainment center and I liked it as well. I was thinking about buying another MacMini to replace an aging web server. ( I already converted the code to run on Apache ). I was also starting to buy and rent movies through iTunes. In short, I was becoming a fan of Apple.



    However, I do not like what I see Apple doing lately. They seem to be becoming way to much of a control freek company. They seem to be becoming a company that wants to succed through fear and intimidation more than one that wants to succeed through innovation. I personally think they are becoming their own enemy. As a result of this lawsuit I have decided not to buy any more products from Apple. It is my single little (meaningless) vote against what they are doing as a company....



    I think your impression is being driven by the way the information about the suit has been presented to you, which is to say, irresponsibly and sensationalized. Then again, it wouldn't "sell papers" if the dry facts were communicated, right?
  • Reply 77 of 126
    piotpiot Posts: 1,346member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    People. Please. I beg of you. Be less stupid.



    This is the Intarwebs! Are you new here?



    Try this one: http://www.brucebnews.com/2010/03/ipad-aspect-ratio (Answer in the comments!)
  • Reply 78 of 126
    gwydiongwydion Posts: 1,083member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    Why don't you provide PROOF of this?



    It should only take you a few years.



    HTC knowingly pushed further and further into mimicking the iPhone.



    Now they know where the boundaries are they should go back a few steps to where their Android phones were before then INNOVATE their OWN methods of doing things.



    Will Google step in?



    Now they are facing possible antitrust action from the FCC over the AdMob acquisition.



    Revenue from 75 million iPhone OS devices > revenue from Android devices.



    The iPad is coming I'm sure Google also wants a slice of that pie.



    In which way is mimicking the iPhone?
  • Reply 79 of 126
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by azazel- View Post


    Could have ended right there, and it would be nearly as accurate of an article.



    They don't call 'em "freetards" for nuthin'.
  • Reply 80 of 126
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,665member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by piot View Post


    This is the Intarwebs! Are you new here?



    Try this one: http://www.brucebnews.com/2010/03/ipad-aspect-ratio (Answer in the comments!)



    Heh. I guess being a Windows consultant doesn't require much in the way of common sense.
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