MacBook Pros in tight supply, new models could broaden gap with MacBooks

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  • Reply 101 of 115
    it feels like they wont release til after the Ipad , the hype train is already steaming up for the Ipad, it seems like apple wouldn't want anything getting in its' way. \
  • Reply 102 of 115
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by psylence2k View Post


    it feels like they wont release til after the Ipad , the hype train is already steaming up for the Ipad, it seems like apple wouldn't want anything getting in its' way. \



    This is atypical. Plus, last year's iPhone OS special event took place on Tuesday, March 17th and was announced on Thursday, March 12th. Less than two weeks away from the anniversary of that event.
  • Reply 103 of 115
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solarein View Post


    I agree that Core i7 Arrandale performance isn't as good as it could be, I would've liked to see everything moved on-die with the CPU like the first generation Nehalems, but it looks like Intel went with the money saving route by reusing their 45nm northbridge fabs. But there is a definite performance gain, compared to the fastest Core 2 Duo (T9900), the Core i7 620M performs better in most benchmarks, with especially wide margins in multi-threaded benchmarks. And this comes with little decrease in battery life compared to the high frequency Core 2 Duos (battery life is worse in absolute terms compared to lower end Core 2 Duos but still better in terms of performance/watt.) So what's the tradeoff here? It seems to me to be just a newer, better chip.



    With regards to OpenCL acceleration, how long do you think it will be before applications that people use often support it? OpenCL is still too nascent for it to be a major factor in purchasing decision when it comes to laptops. By the time that the applications that someone would like to run faster supports it, it may be time to purchase another laptop. Also, OpenCL is only helpful for very specific kinds of programs, those that can execute with massive parallelism. GPGPU execution is a tradeoff, in exchange for having many execution units, each unit is exceedingly simple compared to what CPUs can do. They don't have the out-of-order, branch-prediction, speculative execution logic that CPUs use to speed up single threads. This means that only specific kinds of programs that can be parallelized to such scales are accelerated by GPGPU execution, other kinds of programs will execute quite poorly on GPGPUs.



    There are more than a few PC game companies that are now thinking of (and some have already) moving to Open GL for cross platform compatibility. It's gotten to the level at which it competes against DirectX very well.
  • Reply 104 of 115
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by infinitespecter View Post


    I can confess that I am genuinely confused about the differences in the 2010 processors. Can you explain the differences between the Core i3,i5, and i7 processors? How do they compare to similarly clocked Core 2 Duo machines? I know some seem to be clocked very low (like 1.6ghz) and some are clocked much higher. Some have turbo boost and hyper threading and some don't.



    What it comes down to is that I have to buy a machine in the next week or so for work, and I would hate to get a Macbook or Macbook Pro only to find that the Core i3 or i5 is a dramatic improvement since I am likely to keep it for a few years.



    It's like this. These are Nehalem based chips, in other words, memory controller on the same chip, same thing with the Northbrige. Intel is not allowing third parties to do Northbridge chips for this. The Arrendales also contain Intel's integrated graphics. The chips that Apple has been buying from Nvidia contains a Northbridge and a graphics core.



    If Apple goes to any of the i series chips from Intel, they won't be able to use the superior Nvidia chips they've been using, and will be stuck with the Intel graphics they don't want.



    If they go with the Nvidia chips, they will have to stick with a series of Core2 chips; the ones they're using now.



    Which choice would people prefer?



    EDIT:



    Oops! I just happened to glance at this post again. It's not Northbridge, it's Southbridge. Don't know what I was thinking there.
  • Reply 105 of 115
    mcarlingmcarling Posts: 1,106member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solarein View Post


    I agree that Core i7 Arrandale performance isn't as good as it could be, I would've liked to see everything moved on-die with the CPU like the first generation Nehalems, but it looks like Intel went with the money saving route by reusing their 45nm northbridge fabs.



    About a year from now, Intel will release successors to Arrandale with the northbridge/graphics shrunk to 35nm and incorporated on-die with the CPU. I'm not going to wait for it. As soon as I can get a MacBook Air with 4GB (and presumably an Arrandale CPU), I will buy.
  • Reply 106 of 115
    duskdusk Posts: 36member
    Little Chip explanation.



    Arrendale is 2 Core and basicly a 45nm shrink of the old Intel Northbridge (with the new Intel HD GPU) and only the cores of the Nehalem Design.



    The Quad Core Clarksfield Core i7 are much lower clock and although they can use Turbo Boost to get from 1,6 - 2,8 Ghz they don't reach clock speeds as high as Arrendale but are still faster.

    The reason is they are real Nehalem(not just the cores) they have a memory controller on DIE which is really fast. The Arrendale Memory controller is in fact slower than Core 2 Duo's Northbridge+ FSB Solution (there is more bandwidth but the Latency sucks).

    Nehalem has less but an extremely fast Cache compared to Core 2.



    I think Intel wanted to have something to put into Sandybridge (Next Gen) and since the Arrendales are enough of an improvement over Core 2 they didn't put to much effort into integration. You still have all the Power Efficiency stuff though.

    According to rumors only moving the memory controller on DIE will give an 10-20% Performance boost for Sandybridge. Leaving the IMC off DIE also gives the really slow clocked Quad Cores an Advantage.



    In Sandybridge there really is everything(tech) in there. I don't know what they do in the next Architecture. If you want the best possible Performance now. Intel has 6 Core Westmeres out. They are 32nm and have IMC on DIE and everything, but you only see them in something like an Mac Pro.
  • Reply 107 of 115
    solareinsolarein Posts: 143member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dusk View Post


    Little Chip explanation.



    Arrendale is 2 Core and basicly a 45nm shrink of the old Intel Northbridge (with the new Intel HD GPU) and only the cores of the Nehalem Design.



    The Quad Core Clarksfield Core i7 are much lower clock and although they can use Turbo Boost to get from 1,6 - 2,8 Ghz they don't reach clock speeds as high as Arrendale but are still faster.

    The reason is they are real Nehalem(not just the cores) they have a memory controller on DIE which is really fast. The Arrendale Memory controller is in fact slower than Core 2 Duo's Northbridge+ FSB Solution (there is more bandwidth but the Latency sucks).

    Nehalem has less but an extremely fast Cache compared to Core 2.



    I think Intel wanted to have something to put into Sandybridge (Next Gen) and since the Arrendales are enough of an improvement over Core 2 they didn't put to much effort into integration. You still have all the Power Efficiency stuff though.

    According to rumors only moving the memory controller on DIE will give an 10-20% Performance boost for Sandybridge. Leaving the IMC off DIE also gives the really slow clocked Quad Cores an Advantage.



    In Sandybridge there really is everything(tech) in there. I don't know what they do in the next Architecture. If you want the best possible Performance now. Intel has 6 Core Westmeres out. They are 32nm and have IMC on DIE and everything, but you only see them in something like an Mac Pro.



    QPI has higher latency than FSB? That's surprising to me but I haven't looked into the numbers.
  • Reply 108 of 115
    solareinsolarein Posts: 143member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Those are valid points but I wouldn't say it's necessarily form over function and simply being "Faster" doesn't mean that the Vaio Z is more function over form as that isn't the only measure we need to consider.



    The Pro line is more about performance over the non-Pro line of Macs, but not only about processing performance and not usually trying to be the fastest PC in that display size for that machine type.



    I answer the rest under Aquatic's post...







    There are some things to consider with Sony's design. How rigid/durable is it compared to the 13" MBP? How big is the battery and how much of the battery sticks out to make that 1.3" height?



    solarein states that the average thickness of the Vaio Z is 1" but the MBP is 0.95" inches. How much of that 5% over the footprint of the machine helps with cooling and making components that can be built higher?



    What purpose are the feet on the Vaio Z? Presumably for cooling, but most laptops are often used on the lap where the feet become pointless and the bottom is firmly resting on an object nearing 100° F. Is the machine tested well to operate under those conditions? If so, then why have the feet at all.



    If there is an issue with Apple's machine it's likely not form over function so much as marketing over "spec listing". In other words, Apple choose not to make a 13" notebook that starts at $1,800 to compete with Sony but instead to offer a quality machine that starts at $1500, which they latter dropped to $1200. Apple's goal is to make money, as is any other PC company but it seems the only way for others is to go below or above the performance Apple is willing to offer for a machine class.



    A new review came out with a picture that shows what's going on with the Vaio Z's feet/battery really well:





    The battery does stick out, and doubles as the "feet" at the back. This addresses your concern about cooling while used on the lap, because the battery, unlike small feet, can still keep the machine elevated at the back when used on laps. But this isn't a realistic concern in my opinion, when laptops are used on the lap, it's typically a mobile scenario favoring low performance, long battery life usage patterns, and poor ventilation is offset by lower performance demands. Performance-intensive usage patterns are usually found when the laptop is on a desk and plugged into AC power.
  • Reply 109 of 115
    Anyone notice the Best Buy web site now has the i7 logo on all MacBook Pro models??? Even though that's not the processor listed, the graphic is there! It's not on the white MacBook page. A sign of hope!
  • Reply 110 of 115
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AussieMom View Post


    Anyone notice the Best Buy web site now has the i7 logo on all MacBook Pro models??? Even though that's not the processor listed, the graphic is there! It's not on the white MacBook page. A sign of hope!



    Awesome! Did anyone notice how long ago this change was made? Is this something that was changed as soon as the i5/7 processors were available (ie Intel promotion) or something that just happened in anticipation of the new MacBook Pros? I hope the latter is true. I need to get my MacBook already!!
  • Reply 111 of 115
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by miguelcho View Post


    Awesome! Did anyone notice how long ago this change was made? Is this something that was changed as soon as the i5/7 processors were available (ie Intel promotion) or something that just happened in anticipation of the new MacBook Pros? I hope the latter is true. I need to get my MacBook already!!



    Sweet!!!!! Ya'll are right! Core i7 in 15"!!!!!! Hoping for next Tues..



    http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Apple%26...&skuId=9375142
  • Reply 112 of 115
    Well if I sound like a mixture of an impatient teenager and a small business owner talking to his employees - it's because I share our common anticipation of the long overdue refresh of the MBP line.

    Looking at best buys inventories, or reading in between some Apple mid level employees lines gets a little old to decide whether you should hold off buying a laptop or not (i mean it was fun in July, but by now....sorry).

    Well, I'll wait - and remind myself that it is about quality and not speed...fine...well I wrote a review on my blog about quadcore laptops and the mac update if you're interested what goes through my mind once I pull out my draing board. My new site www.macreviewz.com has opinionated reviews on Macs on all the good stuff we care about from a different angle - so hit me back with some feedback if you feel like it.
  • Reply 113 of 115
    bosmanbosman Posts: 23member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post


    Sweet!!!!! Ya'll are right! Core i7 in 15"!!!!!! Hoping for next Tues..



    http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Apple%26...&skuId=9375142



    I see no such i7 logo. It says Core 2 duo as i read it now. Maybe it just looked like the i7
  • Reply 114 of 115
    ndbbmndbbm Posts: 10member
    They changed it back, they were displaying a core I7 logo for awhile.
  • Reply 115 of 115
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ndbbm View Post


    They changed it back, they were displaying a core I7 logo for awhile.



    Yep, they did indeed change it back. I am starting to worry next Tuesday will be another no-show. I don't buy the argument some are pitching that Apple does not want to distract from iPad and will wait for a few weeks after it comes out to update other Macs like MBP. It would make the most sense to release at the same time, so people buying an iPad will see a brand-new laptop or desktop and maybe get that as well. Or get an iPad while getting a new Mac Pro or MBP. Still, I would think we would have heard something from BestBuy or another source with informants by now if they were going to update on 3/16.
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