The thing that people seem to forget is that these prisoners down in Cuba are NOT POWs. They are criminals. They conspired to kill American citizens. POWs get released after the war is over. These prisoners will not.
I've searched my heart and my head for sympathy and compassion for these people, but both said "let the f**kers rot".
I know people say "If we treat these people like animals that makes us no better than them". To those people I say let's rewind the clock two years and we'll ship all of you out to Afghanistan to teach the Taleban compassion.
Whether the individuals in the camp on Cuba committed atrocities, or merely sanctioned them by being fully paid-up members of an organization which condones such behavior, they deserve treatment an awful lot worse than they're currently receiving.
My aggression has nothing to do with September 11, but their treatment of men, women, children, and even animals in Afghanistan. They're destructive, humanity-hating, evil f**ks with no respect for the lives of others.
<strong>Maybe you need to be a little clearer.</strong><hr></blockquote>Well I thought I was clear enough.
You may have noticed that the world - that is the world outside the U.S. -is "showing concern". Now if that is the case, I think it is counter-productive as far as the *overall* aims are concerned, meaning the big picture.
You/we want to have people on your/our side in this particular situation, because the whole thing is not over by a long shot, and the U.S. needs continued - even if it is only moral - support from the free world.
What is happening in Cuba will soon - mark my words - be viewed by the majority of people, including the ones that are pro-U.S. and anti-terrorism, as the actions of big bully showing off, and once again the good guys will have become the bad guys. Now that would be counter-productive, no?
<strong> [quote]
The thing that people seem to forget is that these prisoners down in Cuba are NOT POWs. They are criminals. They conspired to kill American citizens. POWs get released after the war is over. These prisoners will not.</strong><hr></blockquote>No, what the U.S. seems to be forgetting is that the whole world is watching, and what it sees it does not like. *We* are supposed to be different from *them*, if you see what I mean.
It is one thing to say that these people are not POWs - although international opininon is divided on that - and quite another to treat them the way they are being treated, and then to even make a show of it, and thereby giving plenty of ammunition to the people on the fringe to exploit the swing in public opinion.
I must add here that Bush has never struck me as particular subtle, but that is another matter.
<strong>What is happening in Cuba will soon - mark my words - be viewed by the majority of people, including the ones that are pro-U.S. and anti-terrorism, as the actions of big bully showing off, and once again the good guys will have become the bad guys.</strong><hr></blockquote>Again, can you be more specific about what is happening in Cuba that may be objectionable? Is it that they're being held at all, or that they're being held under conditions that are too harsh? I don't see any good arguments there - they're basically being treated like high-security, extremely dangerous criminals. And the Red Cross has seen them.
AFAIK, they haven't made any decisions about how or whether to try them, but that is a trickier issue. I think the special military tribunals, as initially laid out, are a bad idea and may cause more legal problems than they avoid. They should use regular military trials, or even just federal court, and let the chips fall, IMO.
The thing that people seem to forget is that these prisoners down in Cuba are NOT POWs. They are criminals. They conspired to kill American citizens. POWs get released after the war is over. These prisoners will not.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, Fran, they are not criminals. They are
accussed criminals. We don't know that they are criminals until they are proven to be so in a court of law.
Until that time, they must be treated in just the same manner that our justice system would treat any other high-risk prisoner. Did you ever see Tim McVeigh kept in an outdoor cage 6 by 8 feet? Did you ever see him gagged, hooded, and sedated for transportation? No.
The United States stands for equal justice under the law. The current administration's policy towards these accused criminals represents anything but equal justice.
Belle said it perfectly. Having said, that, they have perfectly adequate food and shelter given to them. Also, our interrogation methods do not include physical or psychological torture. We show a LOT of grace towards these animals. Look at how fellow Afghanis from anti-Taliban tribes and alliances treat their prisoners. We are the good guys for them relative to that treatment. We will always get the bad publicity of course. It's our role to bear the burden of the world's anger and frustration as far as I can see.
BTW: American armed forces have adopted the rule of law for US domestic criminals towards our POWs because they have found that torture and inhumane treatment are inhumane. They get a lot more from the prisoners and they do not incite more anger from their homelands in the process. So in response to your initial post:
Your assumption that they are not being treated well is false. And yes, inhumane treatment does come back to bite you later.
Did you ever see Tim McVeigh kept in an outdoor cage 6 by 8 feet? Did you ever see him gagged, hooded, and sedated for transportation? No.
Tim McVeigh, despite the horrible acts he committed, was in the end an American citizen. These scum-buckets are not. They are not entitled to the same rights that American citizens, even if they are horrific criminals, are entitled to. You think the Taliban would treat their prisoners better? I suspect 100 times worse.
These dregs of humanity are getting 3 square meals each day and a roof over their heads basking in a glorious tropical climate. Compare the life, comfort and security of these murdering maniacs (paid for by the US taxpayer) to the 10's of thousands of US citizens who have been evicted this winter, in sub zero conditions, for no crime other than being the uncomfortable end of capitalism. The human rights observers in Cuba are maybe looking in the wrong places.
Furthermore, why should the United States taxpayers be paying for the incarceration of these terrorists? I say send the bill to Saudi Arabia; after all it was mostly Saudi citizens who were responsible for killing 3000+ people on Sept 11. Or is the pursuit of Saudi culpability a little too uncomfortable or "close to home"?
<strong>I've searched my heart and my head for sympathy and compassion for these people, but both said "let the f**kers rot".</strong><hr></blockquote>But you've made The Error?: Presuming their guilt. Some of them were brought in from the battle field, but some are suspected terrorists who have been brought in from other countries. They can be interrogated, tried, treated like POWs, or whatever. But they shouldn't be presumed guilty of terrorism.
I don't see how Tim McVeigh is any "better" than these guys.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think anyone said he was "better". Just that he was in a better situation because he had Bill of Rights behind them.
Also I think "treatment" does need to be defined. When I first read it I thought it meant "mental health" type of treatment. But I guess it means treatment as a prisoner of war.
Many in the world will hate us no matter what. France has a hard time backing the US in anything. The Saudis are wolfs in wolfs clothing with some wolfs in sheep clothing to represent them.
We could give those low lifes the best conditions and the fairest trial and we'd be hated all around. Time for the US to tell the world to very much go **** itself because we need to do what's best for us. Let the Red Cross in and make the changes they want and then tell eveyone to **** off.
I don't mind us feeding these bastards before we execute them.
My suggested menu for these wretches who profess to be such devout Muslims:
Breakfast:
Bacon and Ham.
Lunch: Something nice and Kosher (a tribute to our Israeli Friends who have been fighting with these sons of bitches longer than we have). Make sure that they know that they're eating food approved by Rabbinical Authority.
Supper:
No supper. Supper's for good kids.
Just tryin' t' he'p,
Seriously, short of mass lobotomies these guys are NOT GOING TO CHANGE. Each one is a Kamikazi waiting to die and go to paradise. Let's meet their demands and kill them. We must have some new weapon systems that could benefit from live fire testing.
The government could have a lottery (free tickets to people who lost family on 9-11) for executioners. Might help the economy get on its feet.
<strong>But you've made The Error?: Presuming their guilt. Some of them were brought in from the battle field, but some are suspected terrorists who have been brought in from other countries. They can be interrogated, tried, treated like POWs, or whatever. But they shouldn't be presumed guilty of terrorism.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Re-read my post. My feelings have nothing to do with terrorism, as I specifically stated. These people all fought on the side of the Taleban, who for some years have been a malignant tumor eating away at Afghanistan from the inside.
I don't think any of them are guilty of the "TV journalism" definition of terrorism, particularly against the US, but if they side themselves with a group with the malicious policies of the Taleban, they deserve everything they get.
What does trouble me is exactly what they're going to be tried for by the US. What also troubles me is that the one American among them is being treated differently.
It seems that since we are in a 'conflict' against a terrorist organization versus a criminal organization (like THRUSH, KAOS or the Mafia), we need to have another Geneva Convention to determine how exactly we are going to treat these scum.
Captured on the battlefield = guilty until proven innocent.
Don't forget that these bastards kidnapped and hung a Marine officer years ago, to say nothing of how they murdered Seaman Robert Streatham (sp?).
In their minds, we are at war. In this one aspect, I agree with the bastards.
<strong>My feelings have nothing to do with terrorism, as I specifically stated. These people all fought on the side of the Taleban, who for some years have been a malignant tumor eating away at Afghanistan from the inside.</strong><hr></blockquote>It's my understanding that some of these people were brought in from other countries unrelated to the Afghanistan war. So they were not all fighting on the side of the Taliban.
Did you ever see Tim McVeigh kept in an outdoor cage 6 by 8 feet? Did you ever see him gagged, hooded, and sedated for transportation? No.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Comments
The thing that people seem to forget is that these prisoners down in Cuba are NOT POWs. They are criminals. They conspired to kill American citizens. POWs get released after the war is over. These prisoners will not.
I know people say "If we treat these people like animals that makes us no better than them". To those people I say let's rewind the clock two years and we'll ship all of you out to Afghanistan to teach the Taleban compassion.
Whether the individuals in the camp on Cuba committed atrocities, or merely sanctioned them by being fully paid-up members of an organization which condones such behavior, they deserve treatment an awful lot worse than they're currently receiving.
My aggression has nothing to do with September 11, but their treatment of men, women, children, and even animals in Afghanistan. They're destructive, humanity-hating, evil f**ks with no respect for the lives of others.
'Scuse my language.
<strong>Maybe you need to be a little clearer.</strong><hr></blockquote>Well I thought I was clear enough.
You may have noticed that the world - that is the world outside the U.S. -is "showing concern". Now if that is the case, I think it is counter-productive as far as the *overall* aims are concerned, meaning the big picture.
You/we want to have people on your/our side in this particular situation, because the whole thing is not over by a long shot, and the U.S. needs continued - even if it is only moral - support from the free world.
What is happening in Cuba will soon - mark my words - be viewed by the majority of people, including the ones that are pro-U.S. and anti-terrorism, as the actions of big bully showing off, and once again the good guys will have become the bad guys. Now that would be counter-productive, no?
<strong> [quote]
The thing that people seem to forget is that these prisoners down in Cuba are NOT POWs. They are criminals. They conspired to kill American citizens. POWs get released after the war is over. These prisoners will not.</strong><hr></blockquote>No, what the U.S. seems to be forgetting is that the whole world is watching, and what it sees it does not like. *We* are supposed to be different from *them*, if you see what I mean.
It is one thing to say that these people are not POWs - although international opininon is divided on that - and quite another to treat them the way they are being treated, and then to even make a show of it, and thereby giving plenty of ammunition to the people on the fringe to exploit the swing in public opinion.
I must add here that Bush has never struck me as particular subtle, but that is another matter.
<strong>Discuss.
I am inclined to think that it is.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes. They should be shot and left to rot.
<strong>What is happening in Cuba will soon - mark my words - be viewed by the majority of people, including the ones that are pro-U.S. and anti-terrorism, as the actions of big bully showing off, and once again the good guys will have become the bad guys.</strong><hr></blockquote>Again, can you be more specific about what is happening in Cuba that may be objectionable? Is it that they're being held at all, or that they're being held under conditions that are too harsh? I don't see any good arguments there - they're basically being treated like high-security, extremely dangerous criminals. And the Red Cross has seen them.
AFAIK, they haven't made any decisions about how or whether to try them, but that is a trickier issue. I think the special military tribunals, as initially laid out, are a bad idea and may cause more legal problems than they avoid. They should use regular military trials, or even just federal court, and let the chips fall, IMO.
<strong>Maybe you need to be a little clearer.
The thing that people seem to forget is that these prisoners down in Cuba are NOT POWs. They are criminals. They conspired to kill American citizens. POWs get released after the war is over. These prisoners will not.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, Fran, they are not criminals. They are
accussed criminals. We don't know that they are criminals until they are proven to be so in a court of law.
Until that time, they must be treated in just the same manner that our justice system would treat any other high-risk prisoner. Did you ever see Tim McVeigh kept in an outdoor cage 6 by 8 feet? Did you ever see him gagged, hooded, and sedated for transportation? No.
The United States stands for equal justice under the law. The current administration's policy towards these accused criminals represents anything but equal justice.
<strong>
Yes. They should be shot and left to rot.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thank you JRC you saved me a little bandwidth on that reply.
<img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
BTW: American armed forces have adopted the rule of law for US domestic criminals towards our POWs because they have found that torture and inhumane treatment are inhumane. They get a lot more from the prisoners and they do not incite more anger from their homelands in the process. So in response to your initial post:
Your assumption that they are not being treated well is false. And yes, inhumane treatment does come back to bite you later.
[ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
Tim McVeigh, despite the horrible acts he committed, was in the end an American citizen. These scum-buckets are not. They are not entitled to the same rights that American citizens, even if they are horrific criminals, are entitled to. You think the Taliban would treat their prisoners better? I suspect 100 times worse.
Furthermore, why should the United States taxpayers be paying for the incarceration of these terrorists? I say send the bill to Saudi Arabia; after all it was mostly Saudi citizens who were responsible for killing 3000+ people on Sept 11. Or is the pursuit of Saudi culpability a little too uncomfortable or "close to home"?
[ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>
Tim McVeigh, despite the horrible acts he committed, was in the end an American citizen. These scum-buckets are not.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
/non-admin mode
I don't see how Tim McVeigh is any "better" than these guys.
<strong>I've searched my heart and my head for sympathy and compassion for these people, but both said "let the f**kers rot".</strong><hr></blockquote>But you've made The Error?: Presuming their guilt. Some of them were brought in from the battle field, but some are suspected terrorists who have been brought in from other countries. They can be interrogated, tried, treated like POWs, or whatever. But they shouldn't be presumed guilty of terrorism.
<strong>
/non-admin mode
I don't see how Tim McVeigh is any "better" than these guys.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think anyone said he was "better". Just that he was in a better situation because he had Bill of Rights behind them.
Also I think "treatment" does need to be defined. When I first read it I thought it meant "mental health" type of treatment. But I guess it means treatment as a prisoner of war.
Many in the world will hate us no matter what. France has a hard time backing the US in anything. The Saudis are wolfs in wolfs clothing with some wolfs in sheep clothing to represent them.
We could give those low lifes the best conditions and the fairest trial and we'd be hated all around. Time for the US to tell the world to very much go **** itself because we need to do what's best for us. Let the Red Cross in and make the changes they want and then tell eveyone to **** off.
My suggested menu for these wretches who profess to be such devout Muslims:
Breakfast:
Bacon and Ham.
Lunch: Something nice and Kosher (a tribute to our Israeli Friends who have been fighting with these sons of bitches longer than we have). Make sure that they know that they're eating food approved by Rabbinical Authority.
Supper:
No supper. Supper's for good kids.
Just tryin' t' he'p,
Seriously, short of mass lobotomies these guys are NOT GOING TO CHANGE. Each one is a Kamikazi waiting to die and go to paradise. Let's meet their demands and kill them. We must have some new weapon systems that could benefit from live fire testing.
The government could have a lottery (free tickets to people who lost family on 9-11) for executioners. Might help the economy get on its feet.
Aries 1B
<strong>But you've made The Error?: Presuming their guilt. Some of them were brought in from the battle field, but some are suspected terrorists who have been brought in from other countries. They can be interrogated, tried, treated like POWs, or whatever. But they shouldn't be presumed guilty of terrorism.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Re-read my post. My feelings have nothing to do with terrorism, as I specifically stated. These people all fought on the side of the Taleban, who for some years have been a malignant tumor eating away at Afghanistan from the inside.
I don't think any of them are guilty of the "TV journalism" definition of terrorism, particularly against the US, but if they side themselves with a group with the malicious policies of the Taleban, they deserve everything they get.
What does trouble me is exactly what they're going to be tried for by the US. What also troubles me is that the one American among them is being treated differently.
[ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: Belle ]</p>
It seems that since we are in a 'conflict' against a terrorist organization versus a criminal organization (like THRUSH, KAOS or the Mafia), we need to have another Geneva Convention to determine how exactly we are going to treat these scum.
Captured on the battlefield = guilty until proven innocent.
Don't forget that these bastards kidnapped and hung a Marine officer years ago, to say nothing of how they murdered Seaman Robert Streatham (sp?).
In their minds, we are at war. In this one aspect, I agree with the bastards.
Aries 1B
<strong>My feelings have nothing to do with terrorism, as I specifically stated. These people all fought on the side of the Taleban, who for some years have been a malignant tumor eating away at Afghanistan from the inside.</strong><hr></blockquote>It's my understanding that some of these people were brought in from other countries unrelated to the Afghanistan war. So they were not all fighting on the side of the Taliban.
However, because these people believe so strongly in the causes of the Taleban and/or al-Queda, they're happy to admit to their allegiances.
<strong>
Did you ever see Tim McVeigh kept in an outdoor cage 6 by 8 feet? Did you ever see him gagged, hooded, and sedated for transportation? No.</strong><hr></blockquote>
We should have.