Adobe evangelist lashes out at Apple over iPhone 4.0

1356714

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 273
    forisforis Posts: 25member
    Brimelow's ineptitude must surely gall his Adobe masters, but really, what is the likely outcome?



    Flash is gone from iPad, iPhone, fait accompli. John Gruber illuminates perfectly Apple's reasons for changing the iPhone Developer license, and clearly that's not going to change.



    Adobe is angry at all of this, just like a gambler is angry when his horse dies out of the gate. I can remember reading articles for years saying that Adobe was on the wrong track here, and if it all went wrong they had nowhere to go - and now it seems those predictions are coming true.



    So what's the point of Adobe's public fury and whining? Are we supposed to feel sorry for their self inflicted injuries?



    Isn't it time they accept reality, and put some serious work into protecting what's left and mending some fences? If they don't, they will surely find that even the mainstays of their business are far from invincible.
  • Reply 42 of 273
    scottkrkscottkrk Posts: 25member
    The change in the SDK agreement is the push and iAd is the pull from Apple to help move towards HTML5.



    I hope Apple release good HTML5 authoring tools so iPhone developers can make money form Apps and money from writing the Ads!
  • Reply 43 of 273
    philipmphilipm Posts: 240member
    This war goes back a long way. With the introduction of the OS X concept, Adobe baulked at rewriting apps in a completely new framework and forced Apple to compromise the original plan (Blue Box for legacy, all else in Cocoa). That's why Apple introduced Carbon, a short-term hack that wasn't great for development of the platform, requiring a lot of cruft to be maintained (Carbon + Blue Box versions of the same API as well as Cocoa). Most developers would have been a bit leery of developing in Cocoa straight off, but Apple could have put more effort than they did into maintaining Blue Box until they all moved over, a much cleaner break with the past. Adobe got their comeuppance with the shift to Intel, when their favoured tool chain, Codewarrior, died out on the Mac, and they pretty much had to redevelop from scratch.



    You may argue that Apple should play nice with one of their bigger developers, but I would have more sympathy with Adobe if they consistently produced great product. Illustrator is terrible to use, with an interface designed to show off the cool things you can do directly in Postscript, and Photoshop is also not exactly obvious in its user interaction model.



    I have CS3 installed and rarely use it because it's designed on the premise that a pro user should be willing to bash their head against a wall for a week then forget the pain and get used to doing things in weird unnatural ways.



    Adobe can and should do better. Not to say Apple couldn't be nicer to them, but that's not the Steve way. Ask IBM and Motorola.



    If this kind of crazy politics leads in the end to better designs, we all benefit so in a way it's better that these guys are not all good friends scratching each others backs.
  • Reply 44 of 273
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post


    Have you heard of Photoshop? It's quite popular, quite dominant, has about 100% share of the graphic design market.



    If what you say is true then Adobe is a monopoly that needs to be broken up
  • Reply 45 of 273
    davegeedavegee Posts: 2,765member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    I don't think we should automatically assume Apple has the upper-hand here. If Adobe's CS Suite wasn't available for the Mac platform, I bet a lot less people would be using the platform.



    PERHAPS.... but answer these for me first.



    1. What % of Apples total business (and profits) are from "Computers running pure OS X"?



    2. What % of THAT number is directly related to users demanding "Adobe CS"?



    3. In the years to come will "Macintosh Sales" and more to the point "Macintosh Sales who demand Adobe CS" account for 'MORE & MORE" or "LESS & LESS" of Apples bottom line?



    3. What % of Adobes total business (and profits) are from "Mac sales of Adobe CS"?



    Now... Lets ask that question again... Who has the upper hand?



    It's for these very reasons why I give even the most remote glimmer of hope that Apple may one day release a legend of AI hardware forums for 10 years+++... Of course I'm taking about the 'xmac' , 'headless-iMac' ... or whatever the current name happens to be... Once the 'Mac Computer' becomes such a small part of Apples over all bottom line... something like that (or dare I say it... dare, dare) OS X licensing may actually be reconsidered.
  • Reply 46 of 273
    rtamesisrtamesis Posts: 88member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Arthur_Klok View Post


    Adobe is now in BIG trouble. They are going down.



    That was just the opening salvo of Apple's revenge on companies that have long treated Mac users as second class citizens. Next, Apple will unveil it's own suite of professional apps for the Mac to kill the overpriced Creative Suite.
  • Reply 47 of 273
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    I'm actually rather ambivalent about this development as I can already play Flash 1 and 2 on an iPhone/iPad, which is just perfect to annoy the hell out of you Adobe haters with animated ads that you can't block.
  • Reply 48 of 273
    lowededwookielowededwookie Posts: 1,143member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bvz View Post


    I have a unique idea for an iPhone app and want the opportunity to try my hand at developing it. But Apple somehow has it in for Flash (and maybe Android with whom I could cross-compile my app) and so has taken me out as collateral damage.



    So use XCode and not be included in the collateral damage. I'm pretty confident thinking that Flash does nothing that can't be done natively do why bother about Flash?
  • Reply 49 of 273
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post


    ....As for Flash, I'm with Adobe on this. Apple should just give people the option of installing a flash plug-in. Freedom is a beautiful thing, unless you're Steve Jobs, in which case, it's the enemy.





    Flash is only good for watching video, unfortunately it is also a medium to deliver advertisements. There for I do not want flash on my iPhone. I rather enjoy website that don't annoy me with over-bearing flash ads. I don't need my bandwidth taken up by fucking full page flash ad that covers the content of the website.
  • Reply 50 of 273
    foadfoad Posts: 717member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by grking View Post


    You are right, it is their choice, and if they choose to produce a second rate product for the Mac, why complain?



    I doubt you would argue that Apple should be forced to allow low level graphics access for hardware acceleration to improve performance, so why should Adobe be forced to make a good Mac version if they do not want to.



    The fact is that Adobe, like every other developer, has access to a variety of APIs that give it access to the GPU. Microsoft has implemented those same APIs in Silverlight and to much success. What Adobe wants is something that it doesn't need. They want an amount of control that is unreasonable for something like Flash.



    With that being said, it's estimated that 50% of Adobe's sales are to Mac users. If such a large portion of your user base is on the Mac, then they should care, but they just don't. As a company, they screwed with Apple from the inception of OS X and at a time when Apple was struggling. Now in the mobile market where Adobe doesn't really have any leverage, Apple isn't going to pander to their needs. They have a strong platform that they have been working on for years and with open standards at their disposal, they aren't kissing anyones, especially Adobe's, rear end.



    Adobe has been lazy for quite some time and with no unified corporate vision. They have been screwing over their users across all platforms. Creating insanely bloated applications, even forcing Flash into the UIs of those applications for no reason and having users struggle through such awkward concepts, that it would drive any normal person insane.



    Finally, even if you put aside performance on Mac desktops and laptops, it has been almost 3 years since the iPhone has been released, and Flash is still not optimized enough to even run on other mobile OS's. They are still trying to optimize it for them with no release date set in stone. If the Flash player is at that level, what makes you think Apple would even contemplate putting Flash on the iPhone?
  • Reply 51 of 273
    sipsip Posts: 210member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post


    Have you heard of Photoshop? It's quite popular, quite dominant, has about 100% share of the graphic design market.



    As for Flash, I'm with Adobe on this. Apple should just give people the option of installing a flash plug-in. Freedom is a beautiful thing, unless you're Steve Jobs, in which case, it's the enemy.



    There are a lot of Photoshop and CS3 users who haven't upgraded to CS4. If Adobe drops the CS suite for OS X, users will still be able to run CS3 or CS4 (and CS5). Adobe hasn't ported its code to Cocoa, which would make it a damn sight more efficient. Everything each application needs would be wrapped in a package instead of being strewn all over your root and user Library folders. Also, don't forget that most of Adobe products rely heavily on Plug-Ins (Photoshop CS3 alone has over 200MB of them).



    Steve jobs isn't stupid: Apple developed OSX to run on Intel processors years before actually moving the whole Mac line to Intel Inside. iWork was a response to MS threatening to stop Office development. OSX has loads of APIs that can do a lot of what Photoshop can. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if Apple already has basic applications to compete with Photoshop & Illustrator. QXP can always take its user base back from InDesign. Apple could do for Photoshop and Illustrator what FCP did to Premiere on the Mac.
  • Reply 52 of 273
    foadfoad Posts: 717member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by I.P.Freely View Post


    Flash is only good for watching video, unfortunately it is also a medium to deliver advertisements. There for I do not want flash on my iPhone. I rather enjoy website that don't annoy me with over-bearing flash ads. I don't need my bandwidth taken up by fucking full page flash ad that covers the content of the website.



    Flash isn't even that good for playing video. It is just ubiquitous. There are plenty of other methods that are more optimal, including native formats. All Flash does in regards to video is put a layer on top of the video that it is streaming. That is why it was relatively easy for Apple to develop a YouTube app that plays the actual source video. It's also why you see so many of the TV networks with players on the iPad. They are just streaming the source videos.



    Microsoft was smart enough to provide server-side capability for Silverlight enabled sites like Netflix to stream the source videos to platforms that don't have Silverlight on them. That is why you see such broad distribution (iPad, PS3, XBOX, Wii, and soon even the iPhone) of Netflix players in the market.
  • Reply 53 of 273
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    I don't think we should automatically assume Apple has the upper-hand here. If Adobe's CS Suite wasn't available for the Mac platform, I bet a lot less people would be using the platform.



    If Apple threaten Adobe's business, Adobe can do far more damage in reverse. Obviously it affects their business somewhat initially too but it won't be long-lasting.



    It's not the 90's any more, and there are a lot of users on the Mac platform that are not in the design or publishing industry.



    Adobe had the power then, so Apple made Carbon.

    Now Apple has the power so it has made the iPhone, iPod Touch and now the iPad, all without flash!



    Get with the times!
  • Reply 54 of 273
    sipsip Posts: 210member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mgjcg View Post


    WHAT AN ASS YOU ARE!!! SAYING WHATEVER YOU WANT TO RANT ABOUT AND THEN TURNING YOUR COMMENTS OFF SO NO ONE CAN TELL YOU HOW WRONG YOU ARE!!!!



    - FLASH SUCKS MORE THAN YOU DO (REMARKABLY)

    - FLASH IS NOT OPEN TO ALL DEVELOPERS, YOU HAVE TO BUY ADOBE CRAPPY SOFTWARE

    - CSS3, HTML5, JAVASCRIPT IS ALL FREE AND OPEN AND DEVELOPERS CAN MAKE ALL THEY WANT USING THOSE STANDARDS

    - APPLE IS NO DIFFERENT THAN OTHER VENDORS IN CONTROLLING WHAT GETS DEVELOPED FOR THEIR HARDWARE WHEN COMPARED TO XBOX, NINTENDO, PLAYSTATION, ETC



    Posting in all capital letters means you're shouting -- Netiquette demands that you do not shout.



    I assume the address you have posted is his residential address? I think that you should edit your post to remove this.



    No offence meant...
  • Reply 55 of 273
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by foad View Post


    The fact is that Adobe, like every other developer, has access to a variety of APIs that give it access to the GPU. Microsoft has implemented those same APIs in Silverlight and to much success. What Adobe wants is something that it doesn't need. They want an amount of control that is unreasonable for something like Flash.



    With that being said, it's estimated that 50% of Adobe's sales are to Mac users. If such a large portion of your user base is on the Mac, then they should care, but they just don't. As a company, they screwed with Apple from the inception of OS X and at a time when Apple was struggling. Now in the mobile market where Adobe doesn't really have any leverage, Apple isn't going to pander to their needs. They have a strong platform that they have been working on for years and with open standards at their disposal, they aren't kissing anyones, especially Adobe's, rear end.



    Adobe has been lazy for quite some time and with no unified corporate vision. They have been screwing over their users across all platforms. Creating insanely bloated applications, even forcing Flash into the UIs of those applications for no reason and having users struggle through such awkward concepts, that it would drive any normal person insane.



    Finally, even if you put aside performance on Mac desktops and laptops, it has been almost 3 years since the iPhone has been released, and Flash is still not optimized enough to even run on other mobile OS's. They are still trying to optimize it for them with no release date set in stone. If the Flash player is at that level, what makes you think Apple would even contemplate putting Flash on the iPhone?



    You make some wonderful points. Expect the majority to just gloss over it.
  • Reply 56 of 273
    alandailalandail Posts: 755member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post


    Have you heard of Photoshop? It's quite popular, quite dominant, has about 100% share of the graphic design market.



    As for Flash, I'm with Adobe on this. Apple should just give people the option of installing a flash plug-in. Freedom is a beautiful thing, unless you're Steve Jobs, in which case, it's the enemy.



    There are apparently technical reasons related to efficient multitasking why they can't do that. Which would you rather have. Flash based apps without efficient multitasking or efficient multitasking without flash based apps.
  • Reply 57 of 273
    alandailalandail Posts: 755member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bvz View Post


    It is like Apple is the political party and the fanboys are all reading from the same talking points memo: Kill Flash! Kill Adobe! Before Apple took up the cause, did any of these guys spend more than 10 seconds arguing that flash should be dealt a death blow? Answer: no.



    actually it was pretty common for people to complain about flash hogging the cpu and being responsible for most crashes. Both of these are why "clicktoflash" exists.
  • Reply 58 of 273
    successsuccess Posts: 1,040member
    Good news. Real apps please.
  • Reply 59 of 273
    mr. memr. me Posts: 3,221member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bvz View Post


    ...



    It is like Apple is the political party and the fanboys are all reading from the same talking points memo: Kill Flash! Kill Adobe! ...



    You are clearly not paying attention. It is not about fanboyism, it is about personal experience that many contributors to this forum have with Flash--and Adobe. You've been lurking on this forum for six years. I've been a Mac user for 21 years. Adobe has been an important developer for the Mac for each of those years. However, Adobe has also been a problem for most of them. Flash is only the latest example.
  • Reply 60 of 273
    kyle172kyle172 Posts: 64member
    History doesn't repeat itself, but it can



    Remember your comrades who stood up for you, and also helped define who you are, even though you were in the brink of destruction to loosing millions and fileing for Bankruptcy.



    I'm dissappointed with Apple and these lastest pesky moves it has decided tighten with loyal developers and users.
Sign In or Register to comment.