Adobe evangelist lashes out at Apple over iPhone 4.0

13468914

Comments

  • Reply 101 of 273
    avidfcpavidfcp Posts: 381member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post


    It's kinda sad though. Adobe wouldn't be toast at all if they just refocussed on what they actually claim to be their goals which is enabling professional content creators to create content on whatever platforms they need to in the most efficient, platform agnostic way possible. Today that means HTML 5 and delivering decent, reasonably priced content creation tools for Mac OS-X. They just aren't even trying to do that.



    The ironic thing is that almost the only thing that will keep traditional desktop systems in existence is the fact that all the content *creation* (or the creation of any consequence at least), will still have to be done on desktop computers. This is Adobe's niche basically.



    It's their choice as to whether they go down in flames, or simply do what they claim to want to do and live on. CS suite has sucked on the Mac for several years now and no competitors of any note have come forward yet (except perhaps Pixelmator). Adobe should consider themselves lucky that no one has ate their lunch to date and buckle down and do some real work for a change.



    Adobe After Effects are used on nearly 90% macs for tv and film. If Adobe pulled the plug, Apple would for sure HEAR ABOUT IT.
  • Reply 102 of 273
    nomadnomad Posts: 11member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tegeril View Post


    [...]Many of the performance optimizations afforded to Flash on Windows (in 10.1 specifically) are a direct result of access to hardware acceleration. The plugin development structure in Safari does not allow the same access. It cannot be done because Apple does not make available the required APIs.



    I'm going with the DF (if i remember correctly) argumentation here. Why the hell should you (as an OS) give a plugin direct hardware access? There are a ton of APIs (namely Quicktime, Core Video) on OSX for hardware accelerated video playback - use them. It's ridiculous for a browsers plugin to have so much low-level access.



    The other day I read about Apple complaining that Adobe needs so deep level hardware access with their software, it's a real pain for Apple. (For anti-piracy things, i guess).



    That being said, the reals reason for this post is a littel thought (that already a trillion people got, maybe i missed the remarks in the thread, sorry)

    Adobe should start to develop a "Web-standard" IDE, be it that they implement a "export to HTML-Package" into the Flash IDE or do it any other way. It's IMHO the thing you can make money with in the future. To my knowledge there is no such thing, open or closed source around today. Sure - the standards are not final, but hell, you can release updates, patches. They do it all the time with other software, so why not here. They already showed that they are willing to let the community take a part in the development of a software with the beta releases of Lightroom via the Adobe Labs.



    Problem is - if they start doing that, they simultaneously give the impression, they're not 100% sure if Flash is going to be the #1 rich-content medium in the internet and are having second thoughts about it. But on the other hand, if you already know flash, than you can use the tool and create things, that "by magic" work on the iP*ds and all the other no-Flash-devices around the planet. So it should turn out a win-win situation. They need to add a few resources to this, and if in the end, flash goes out of the fight as the winner, they wasted the money on this part, but if it's going downhill for flash, they may have saved their sweet behinds in the long run.



    And if i got this idea, surely more than a handful of developers at Adobe got the same thought, but maybe the management just doesn't think it's the right thing to do - or to say it directly "we need to focus, not diversify"



    Or, I'm completely off with the guess, and (as it seems to be) have no clue on the whole marketing subject what-so-ever and Adobe just has to sit this one out. You never know.
  • Reply 103 of 273
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,757member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon. View Post


    Lemon Bon Bon.



    This. Well, what you quoted.
  • Reply 104 of 273
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,354moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mesomorphicman View Post


    What they showed with iAd was impressive from an H5 point.



    Yeah, I saw that too. I wonder how they made it though. Surely not in code. Perhaps they will introduce a new iWeb that allows HTML 5 animations.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox


    Yes, it arguably hurts Apple more than Adobe in the long run, but that would be what is known as "cutting off your nose to spite your face."



    Of course but they still might do it. If they give in to Apple and lose Flash, it's a big expense and a loss of a stranglehold on the web. If they take away the CS Suite from the Mac, most publishers will migrate away from the Mac platform and continue to use Flash/Air in the short term at least. Even if everyone ends up on HTML 5, Apple loses out.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DaveGee


    In the years to come will "Macintosh Sales" and more to the point "Macintosh Sales who demand Adobe CS" account for 'MORE & MORE" or "LESS & LESS" of Apples bottom line?



    There's a trickle-down effect though. Linux isn't viewed very highly among consumers as it doesn't get support from big vendors. It's not just about direct sales. Adobe is huge in desktop publishing and those people also write articles about Apple. If they are forced not to use Macs because they are incompatible then it causes a wider effect than simply not having compatible software.



    That of course assumes printed media will still exist and not some form of electronic ink, the former being why Adobe's Suite is needed.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by foad


    The fact is that Adobe, like every other developer, has access to a variety of APIs that give it access to the GPU. Microsoft has implemented those same APIs in Silverlight and to much success.



    They have GPU-accelerated HTML 5 in IE9 too - maybe not Canvas though, which would be a real pain:



    http://www.downloadsquad.com/2010/03...bs-all-apps-h/

    http://www.guru3d.com/news/nvidia-gp...ted-ie9-video/



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RationalTroll


    It could be far worse than you think:



    What if Apple were intentionally harming Adobe's market cap to prep for a hostile takeover within a year or two after the price drops far enough?



    Then there would indeed be a CS Suite for the Mac - and only for the Mac.



    That's sometimes seen as the reason behind the Intel/NVidia disputes. It's a possibility but I think unlikely. Given Apple's developments in Webkit/Canvas, I think this is entirely different from a buyout attempt. Often, Apple just step forward from the group of big companies and point in another direction and expect them to follow. It annoys them because they are comfortable making money for doing nothing instead of making things to a higher standard and don't like following the little guy.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sfoalex


    I have to disagree strongly with you. A good case in point was Avid pulling out of the Mac market. That was said to be a nail in Apple's coffin. Apple doesn't just sit there and watch the product vanish entirely with no response. Apple bought several companies and the results arenthe Final Cut Suite which has basically marginalized Avid, the industry standard.



    If Adobe and even Microsoft ever decided to drop Apple they'd live to regret it. Apple's response would be to build software that's better and cheaper than Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. And it can be done. Apple simply doesn't go after Adobe's market so long as Adobe doesn't force Apple to do so by pulling out.



    That's a good point but "Apple's response would be to build" and "Apple bought several companies" conflict. Apple don't build professional software from the ground up very often. The question is what companies could they buy to take on Adobe.



    InDesign CS4 - Quark

    Photoshop CS4 Extended - loads of image editing tools out there but plugin support is tricky

    Illustrator CS4 - Quark, maybe try to get some of the Freehand devs on board

    Acrobat 9 Pro - not going to happen

    Flash CS4 Professional - iWeb + animation

    Dreamweaver CS4 - Any autocompletion editor like Coda integrated into iWeb, hook it into the Apache server in OS X and it's a great testing platform

    Fireworks CS4 - Same as Photoshop replacement

    After Effects CS4 - they need to improve Motion but it's on the right path, including good GPUs would help

    Adobe Premiere Pro CS4 - Final Cut obviously

    Soundbooth CS4 - they do have soundtrack pro in the FCP Suite

    LightRoom - Aperture



    It's possible for them to do it and in many ways I'm with you on the frustration with the software, the expense etc but I don't want to see them do the same thing they did with Shake. Bought out the industry standard software, did nothing with it, then dropped it. Now all those experienced users have to migrate to Nuke and buy new licenses at great expense.



    If they bought out Quark and took on the CS Suite and then do nothing to compete, people are just left with frustration and eventually great expense. Even though Final Cut is very popular now, the software itself is stagnating - yes Apple are lazy too. Their compression software is utter garbage. It is so slow and unstable. Their format support is poor and slow. Their error messages are not intuitive. Final Cut is not popular because it's great but because it's good and cheap, something contrary to Apple's philosophy. It becomes evident that it's little more than a way to sell more high-end Macs.
  • Reply 105 of 273
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,757member
  • Reply 106 of 273
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,757member
    It's all part of the plan.



    Apple's making a key transition here. They're among the first to start leaving behind the old "operating system on a computer" paradigm.



    "OS X" will in time become the "iPhone OS" or the "iOS" - whatever they'll call it, and you'll see Apple develop the hell out of it. It'll get to a point where it will far outshine OS X in efficiency, scalability, and speed. "Notebooks" in time will look nothing like what we see now. Desktops in their current form will be dead. Retail outlets can hardly move them as it is.



    We'll continue to see "Macs." But they'll be quite different. Apple isn't ignoring its Mac business. Apple is evolving it. I'm a bit surprised that quite a few people aren't seeing the Big Picture here.



    Risky. Ballsy. And incredibly inspiring. THIS is how the industry moves forward.
  • Reply 107 of 273
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    All this Flash hate...I don't get it. Flash is a good idea, it just isn't optimized (by a long shot, I know) on Mac or i***. I imagine Adobe is working on that. Although I don't get why it has taken them years and they have nothing to show, or even more, why they haven't announced that they are trying to work with Apple on accelerating Flash on Mac and iPhone.



    Now that I use ClickToFlash...I have to say, a lot of the Internet depends on Flash. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't use a lot of the Internet. Try ClickToFlash. I hope they don't piss off Steve Jobs by doing something stupid like hobbling CS5 or something else. Because then Steve Jobs will probably be immature and escalate this "war". This is stupid, Apple and Adobe should be friends and united against Microsoft. So stupid. We are collateral damage as a developer here said. I wanted to get into iPhone apps a bit even and the Flash development environment sounded like a great friggin idea. My programmer colleagues universally seem to detest Obj-C. Big time. Apple is becoming more dictator-like every year and frankly it's unnerving and sad. When MS offers more freedom you know something is wrong...
  • Reply 108 of 273
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,757member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post


    All this Flash hate...I don't get it. Flash is a good idea, it just isn't optimized (by a long shot, I know) on Mac or i***. I imagine Adobe is working on that.



    Don't let your imagination run away with you.



    Adobe has supposedly been "working on" fixing and optimizing their Mac products for years. Things have only gotten worse.



    Apple decided not to wait and while they're at it, take the bull by the horns and promote a new standard.
  • Reply 109 of 273
    Quote:

    Wow, just wow.



    Apple are out competing Adobe how exactly? Flash has near 100% penetration on PCs. Photoshop totally dominates the graphic design market.



    Google dominates search. Android is a far more advanced OS than even iPhone OS 4, and Android market share is rapidly rising.



    And as for MS... oh come on. Think before you type.



    All strangely irrelevant in the 3rd Great Age of Computing.



    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • Reply 110 of 273
    successsuccess Posts: 1,040member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sfoalex View Post


    I have to disagree strongly with you. A good case in point was Avid pulling out of the Mac market. That was said to be a nail in Apple's coffin. Apple doesn't just sit there and watch the product vanish entirely with no response. Apple bought several companies and the results arenthe Final Cut Suite which has basically marginalized Avid, the industry standard.



    If Adobe and even Microsoft ever decided to drop Apple they'd live to regret it. Apple's response would be to build software that's better and cheaper than Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. And it can be done. Apple simply doesn't go after Adobe's market so long as Adobe doesn't force Apple to do so by pulling out.



    Remember Avid truly was in Adobe's position. It was simply unthinkable that anyone could topple Avid. Apple did and they did it in record time.



    I've been using Adobe's apps since the very beginning. And I am so sick of Adobe. I would love Apple to go after Adobe. Virtually everyone I know feels the same way. We're sick to death of Adobe's rising prices and extreme activation measures.



    If Adobe dropped Apple, I'd clap clap clap. Because I know what Apple's response would be. Build a better graphics suite and sell it for less.



    Bring it on.



    So true. Actually the ironic thing about extreme activation measures is that the very people they're meant for easily bypass those measures by downloading one Volume License serial number. They're spread like wildfire on the net and there's actually never any need for software hacks or anything convoluted. Enter Volume License serial number while disconnected from the net, enter in Adobe's domain names in your host file to block communication to Adobe and that's it. All of the "activation" steps required are quite ridiculous actually. Can view it on YouTube.



    I'm currently looking at replacements for Illustrator and Photoshop. Once I've decided I'll be done with Adobe for ever. It will be nice to use a graphic design app on my MacBook without waiting for other applications to slowly open because Photoshop is using 50% of my CPU. Good riddance.
  • Reply 111 of 273
    hexorhexor Posts: 57member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bvz View Post


    I have a unique idea for an iPhone app and want the opportunity to try my hand at developing it. But Apple somehow has it in for Flash (and maybe Android with whom I could cross-compile my app) and so has taken me out as collateral damage.



    You could have used the developer tools that are specifically for the iPhone and avoided this all together. Relying on someone else to mimic the tool-chain of the manufacturer is just foolish especially on a platform that changes so rapidly. The framework will ALWAYS be behind the "native" framework especially if they have to keep things working on multiple platforms. On top of that you would not only have to worry about bugs in the native framework but you add an entire new level of complexity with the secondary framework.
  • Reply 112 of 273
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sfoalex

    I have to disagree strongly with you. A good case in point was Avid pulling out of the Mac market. That was said to be a nail in Apple's coffin. Apple doesn't just sit there and watch the product vanish entirely with no response. Apple bought several companies and the results arenthe Final Cut Suite which has basically marginalized Avid, the industry standard.



    If Adobe and even Microsoft ever decided to drop Apple they'd live to regret it. Apple's response would be to build software that's better and cheaper than Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. And it can be done. Apple simply doesn't go after Adobe's market so long as Adobe doesn't force Apple to do so by pulling out.



    Remember Avid truly was in Adobe's position. It was simply unthinkable that anyone could topple Avid. Apple did and they did it in record time.



    I've been using Adobe's apps since the very beginning. And I am so sick of Adobe. I would love Apple to go after Adobe. Virtually everyone I know feels the same way. We're sick to death of Adobe's rising prices and extreme activation measures.



    If Adobe dropped Apple, I'd clap clap clap. Because I know what Apple's response would be. Build a better graphics suite and sell it for less.



    Bring it on.



    A-MEN! *(Pats baseball bat...)



    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • Reply 113 of 273
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,757member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sfoalex View Post


    I have to disagree strongly with you. A good case in point was Avid pulling out of the Mac market. That was said to be a nail in Apple's coffin. Apple doesn't just sit there and watch the product vanish entirely with no response. Apple bought several companies and the results arenthe Final Cut Suite which has basically marginalized Avid, the industry standard.



    If Adobe and even Microsoft ever decided to drop Apple they'd live to regret it. Apple's response would be to build software that's better and cheaper than Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. And it can be done. Apple simply doesn't go after Adobe's market so long as Adobe doesn't force Apple to do so by pulling out.



    Remember Avid truly was in Adobe's position. It was simply unthinkable that anyone could topple Avid. Apple did and they did it in record time.



    I've been using Adobe's apps since the very beginning. And I am so sick of Adobe. I would love Apple to go after Adobe. Virtually everyone I know feels the same way. We're sick to death of Adobe's rising prices and extreme activation measures.



    If Adobe dropped Apple, I'd clap clap clap. Because I know what Apple's response would be. Build a better graphics suite and sell it for less.



    Bring it on.



    Can we make this a sticky?
  • Reply 114 of 273
    Quote:

    Can we make this a sticky?



    Yes please.



    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • Reply 115 of 273
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by philipm View Post


    I have CS3 installed and rarely use it because it's designed on the premise that a pro user should be willing to bash their head against a wall for a week then forget the pain and get used to doing things in weird unnatural ways.




    If Adobe doesn't want to do things the Apple way, they should be bannad from all Apple products!
  • Reply 116 of 273
    hexorhexor Posts: 57member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aquatic View Post


    I wanted to get into iPhone apps a bit even and the Flash development environment sounded like a great friggin idea. My programmer colleagues universally seem to detest Obj-C. Big time. Apple is becoming more dictator-like every year and frankly it's unnerving and sad. When MS offers more freedom you know something is wrong...



    Sounds more like your programmer colleagues don't know much about objective c. There are 13 year olds writing native iPhone apps using objective-c and your university team can't handle that?
  • Reply 117 of 273
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DaveGee View Post


    It's for these very reasons why I give even the most remote glimmer of hope that Apple may one day release a legend of AI hardware forums for 10 years+++... Of course I'm taking about the 'xmac' , 'headless-iMac' ... or whatever the current name happens to be... Once the 'Mac Computer' becomes such a small part of Apples over all bottom line... something like that (or dare I say it... dare, dare) OS X licensing may actually be reconsidered.



    Apple is now a mobile device company. I expect to see them deempahasize the desktop line. they lost to Windows a long time ago.
  • Reply 118 of 273
    Apple makes their own Photoshop, Illustrator and HTML 5 authoring tool?



    I'd move over in a heart beat. If they dropped Mac support. But they won't. They don't have the b*lls and they'd lose 40-50% revenue that comes from Mac buyers. Apple made Adobe and they can break them.



    They can whine like stuck pigs...but they're software on the mobile platform is slow, buggy, bloated etc. And until they get off their arse and get 'creative' (har!) again and create innovative authoring tools that scale instead of bloat...they're going to take one helluva beating. Like Microsoft, Adobe just aren't ready for the mobile age of computing.



    This isn't 1984. Apple are prepared this time. They've put massive infrastructure around 'simple' and mobile computing that does 80-90% of the things we really use computers for. Adobe and M$ are stuck in the past. They haven't moved their business models forward and are blowing bubbles with conservative foot dragging. They look paralised with fear.



    I look at Pixelator. I see a hungry young app that will do for alot of people. And how difficult to get something going like that, with a small footprint, for the iPad..? Who long before the fizzing Mac developer community bring out a nice 'flash' style authoring tool for HTML 5? Something is going to do it. I think Adobe needs new leadership. They're run by a sales guy. You can tell how they've milked and faffed with the CS Suite over the last few years. On a glacial slow development pace.



    Dinosaurs got replaced by the Mammals.



    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • Reply 119 of 273
    In an industry that changes as much as computers and software, did web developers honestly expect to be able to use the same language for over 15 years? I bet most industries wish they could stay competitive without significant innovation for that long; I know it sure would make my job a lot easier.



    I've asked a bunch of people why they hate the lack of flash support, and the only example that keeps popping up is guess what? Not being able to play Farmville. I feel your pain guys, I really do And to quote Homer Simpson: "Ah video games, the reason this generation of Americans is the best ever." But don't worry, I'm sure your precious Farmville will adapt. I'm getting the impression that people just love to hate Apple.



    96% of people have a flash plugin installed because they visited a flash site at some point in their browsers' existance, and there is no point to uninstall a plugin. If adobe wanted to cite a meaningful statistic, they'd tell us what percentage of high volume websites still use flash.
  • Reply 120 of 273
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sflocal View Post


    Oh give me a break! This is simply pure FUD. Last time I checked, there is Android, RIM, WinMo, Palm, Symbian, etc. Nice that you conveniently left that part out eh? Besides, with the way the Android boys are kicking, Android will overtake the iPhone by when????? This time next Thursday? Then, you can sleep nice knowing open source (and the world) was victorious over closed, "safe", and proprietary toasters.



    And least the news psot disagress with you



    Quote:

    The report also stated Adobe's position that "more than 96 percent of U.S. Web surfers have Flash installed on their computers, according to researcher StatOwl," without noting that the iPhone now accounts for more than 60% of all smartphone traffic globally, while the iPod touch accounts for nearly all (93%) of web traffic among "mobile Internet devices." It's not hard to guess that iPad will similarly account for most "tablet" web traffic.



    More than 60% for Smartphone

    93% of the mobile internet market (by traffic, but that should imply a huge market share)

    And with iPhone 4, iPhone OS 4.0 on the Horizon and the iPad just release, I am quite sure, that those numbers will grow quite a bit. (At least in my Opinion, because they bring exactly what's been missing up to now)



    So using this market position to directly harm competitors (in this case Adobe etc) or indirectly (App Devs, without cross compilers, will develope for the biggest product group, i.e. iPhone OS in this case, limiting the Offer for other products, thus damaging them. Those who are willing to do the extra work for more than one platform are rare) is, at least as far as I think, worth an anti trust lawsuit
Sign In or Register to comment.