I must applaud you friend, very well said. I work in retail and what it comes down to always and every day is attitude. I have gone out of my way and bent the rules many times for customers simply because they were nice and reasonable and polite. Too many people walk around acting like the world owes them something, i dont care if you pay monthly service, i dont care how much you spent on this item, nothing gives you the right to treat another person in a rude, degrading negative manor unless they met you with the same treatment first. I have been on both sides of the customer service counter and i have found that being nice, polite, understanding and patient go a very long way. In the end when someone says to you, im sorry there is nothing i can do for you, it really means "i probably could have helped you, possibly bent a rule here or there to make things happen for you, but youre a rude inconsiderate jerk, have a nice day."
Now more on topic, i have had my fair share of dealings with Liquid damage indicators and to be honest most people dont really understand how they work. when people think about liquid damage they think dunked in water. but there are many types of situations in which your phone can be exposed to liquid without you even being aware. Moisture, rain, humidity, condensation, steam, etc. To put it in a way one could understand, if you took your dvd player out in the rain would you expect it to work? better yet would you expect the manufacturer to cover your replacement? absolutely not.
Now i must say that at times i have found them too sensitive. I have touched one with my finger by accident and the simple oils on my hand triggered the LDI. however a phone is a piece of electronic equipment, and just as we keep our TVs, dvd players, stereos and other devices away from moisture and liquids, the same type of care should be applied to a phone. Just because you didnt witness the exposure to liquid doesnt mean it didnt happen. Sorry but i hope apple wins this one.
So you hope Apple wins if it shows that an LSI can be triggered by touching it?
Really?
Say you buy an AppleCare warranty that extends the coverage to two years, and an LSI is triggered two months after you bought it. You're saying that if your iPhone needs service because something goes wrong with it -- unable to load apps, unable to put it to sleep, unable to use certain features, anything -- Apple should be able to make you pay to fix or replace it based on nothing more than a red or pink LSI? Even though -- by definition -- an LSI is nothing more than an INDICATOR of damage, not PROOF that you actually DAMAGED your iPhone with liquid, justifies the cancellation of your warranty?
I don't think anyone is saying Apple should pay if a customer has carelessly or deliberately damaged his iPhone by spilling water on it or dunking it in the toilet. The issue is whether Apple is using a triggered LSI, without more, as proof that someone did that as a way to get out of having to pay to fix something that may have nothing to do with damage by liquid.
Haven't read all the posts, but I just wanted to share that I just checked my Touch moisture indicator and it's white. That's great, except it shouldn't be. I dropped it in the toilet a few weeks after I got it. It was completely submerged for at least 3 seconds. Maybe trapped air in the jack kept the water off the indicator, but either way it still lends credence to the "These things are worthless" camp.
It's an interesting question posed by the lawsuit. It's clear reading the thread that these indicators are a bit touchy, or at least have some false positive issues. In my mind the case is going to turn on the just how bad the false positive situation is, along with what Apple's documented policies direct the repair people to do.
I'm a bit skeptical of the false positive problem if in fact the description of the independent testing is accurate. Who would let their phone be exposed to -11C temps for an hour at a time, three times in a row? If you're outside in those temps, the phone will be in a pocket or close to your body - your body heat alone will keep it from getting that cold.
Apple's own documented policies are likely to be quite benign, as well. I'd bet the "use the indicators as a possible flag for concern, but not as 100 percent proof" policy is in there.
Where I think the problem lies is Apple employees who, for whatever reason, don't want to help a customer they don't like and use a tripped indicator as a reason for denial. If the documented Apple policy is legal, but the way the employees are implementing the policy is sketchy, then the lawsuit has some problems. How do you prove that Apple employees are being overly aggressive in denying claims because of tripped indicators? I don't think there's any question that some Apple employees are probably too aggressive in denying claims because of the indicators, but if that's not a company-wide policy I have a hard time seeing how the plaintiffs sustain a class action. (You have to show that all class members have been treated alike, and if the problem is ad hoc and subject to anecdotal proof at best, that's hard to do).
In some respects this lawsuit is not as frivolous as a lot of the crap that Apple has to deal with, but I'm still skeptical that it can succeed. Once you lose class action status, the economics of the case become untenable for the plaintiff's counsel.
And yes I am a lawyer, and I have defeated a putative class action on similar grounds in the past.
Apple's own documented policies are likely to be quite benign, as well. I'd bet the "use the indicators as a possible flag for concern, but not as 100 percent proof" policy is in there.
How do you prove that Apple employees are being overly aggressive in denying claims because of tripped indicators?
A parade of reasonable-acting people telling their sob stories to the jury? I'm no litigator, but isn't that the way it is done?
A parade of reasonable-acting people telling their sob stories to the jury? I'm no litigator, but isn't that the way it is done?
Unlike many other places, yes this type of civil matter could be held as a trial with a jury though it's quite likely the Court would decide otherwise. If it's heard in a Court of the state though it's more likely that they may not use a jury at all for what, if at all, is likely to be just a pecuniary consideration.
I'm not conspiracy-theorist, but AT&T appears to know something most of us don't.
Although they offer insurance that cover liquid damage on wireless phones, only two phones are not eligible for coverage under it: the GoPhone (a pre-paid disposable) and the iPhone.
Actually it isn't, not when they are dropped off at a phone store here.
The iPhone box isn't used the person seeking repair keeps it, it's wrapped in bubble wrap, inside a cardboard box, inside a sealed plastic bag, delivered overnight.
When a customer sends it to Apple directly, it's dropped off at a post office wrapped in bubble wrap etc and sent overnight.
It seems a lot of people commenting here have not replaced or sent phones away for repair, the only thing sent. with all phones is the phone the customer keeps everything including the back and the battery (unless it's a battery issue).
If a moisture sensor is tripped on any phone we offer to send it for further assessment rather than replacing it on the spot, the technicians take photo's of any damage they find before rejecting a warranty.
Water condensing on the LSI is also condensing inside the phone, thus causing damage.
If I use my iPhone inside my bathroom I make sure it is next to an open window so that airflow keeps condensing water away from it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ-PL
You are not right. Please, read the original article. Three attempts as it is the way the iPhone goes from the phone owner to the repair service.
Well, if she has halfway decent lawyers, they may have gotten enough information from the manufacturer of the LCI to know a) how reliable they are and b) what information Apple was given about the reliability.
As for your comment re lawyers, that's the way the system works in this country. One benefit of this is that lawyers won't generally take a case that they don't think they have a reasonable chance of winning because they'll just end up losing money on it.
Clearly you have no experience in manufacturing or purchasing: a) No manufacturer will voluntarily provide information indicating that it sells a defective product and b) Apple would not source a defective OEM product because it simply invites problems. If you are suggesting that Apple sourced the LCIs because they were known to provide false positives as a way to avoid warranty claims you are truly smoking something.
And with regard to how the legal system in the US works you are about 180° off center. There is a myriad of lawyers who solicit and encourage litigation of this sort because they believe that merely filing suit and some discovery motions will force the Defendant into a settlement. True multi-state class actions are huge undertakings that look to a prospective settlement pool of many hundreds of millions of dollars. A claim of a defective sensor in a $500 product is not the basis for such a claim.
This situation in class actions and tort law in general will not abate until we adopt what is known as the English Rule. Loser pays. If you sue and you lose - you pay the other sides legal fees and costs. Good bye to "The Cochran Firm" "Mike Slocum Law Firm" et. al.
I had exactly the same problem with Apple "Genius" refusing to repair my iPhone 3GS at Sherman Oaks Apple Store just a few months ago. I never dropped it in the water, not even close, yet somehow sensor was triggered, so no matter what, they refused to take it in for a repair. The funny thing was, right next to me, another Apple "Genius" was putting one of those screen protector for a customer, SPRAYING THE SOLUTION TO HER IPHONE 3GS to apply the protector! I asked the store manager, "Can that trigger the sensor?" His reply was, "I'm not going to comment on that." And I further asked, "So if she comes back in a few minutes and claims having a problem with her iPhone, and the sensor was triggered, you are not going to honor the warranty, even if one of your "Geniuses" was the one who sprayed the solution like spraying Windex on the window?" Of course, his response was, "No comment." I have also heard the "Genius" saying the bathroom moisture can cause the sensor to trigger in some occasion. This liquid sensor thing is a full of crap, just another excuse for Apple not to take responsibilities for its own products. I miss when the Apple stores were scarce and the store employees were much nicer and passionate about their products and customers.
None of my 5 iPods have ever been in/under water. All of them have their moisture sensors triggered red.
They're all off warranty and still working perfectly, so it's of no consequence to me, but the fact remains that every one of these never wet devices are indicating that they've all been submerged.
So would you rather pay more for your phones so that phone manufacturers can cover the cost of fraudulent claims?
No, I think it's one of the manufacturers' responsibilities to offer the reliable products, including the sensor. Either they should produce the higher quality sensor, or make it more flexible at the store to accept the warranty repairs, instead of flat out "no."
So well put. People will claim anything to not own up to their mistakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blursd
I can tell you from experience there are A LOT of people who do stupid things, or have stupid things happen to their devices and then lie about it to the Genius/Specialist and then get belligerent when they're called on it. There are also people who legitimately have an issue, and didn't violate their warranty, but there are by far the minority and usually are easier to spot out.
If you've done any sort of work at all with repairing or diagnosing Apple products it becomes evident almost half the time at a prima face glance that someone is lying. If a device really has been dunked in water, or dropped onto a hard surface you can deny it all you want, but the truth is right there in front of you. I understand no one likes having bad things happen to them, and most of the time the damage is unintentional ... just man up to it, and you're half way to a better experience when you go in for service.
I can't even count how many times I would open up computers or iPods and all the components would either be completely corroded or still covered in moisture, and the owners who get angry and continue to emphatically deny their device had ever come in contact with liquid. Its one thing when its an ambigous reading on a moisture sensor ... its another when theres a half cup of water still inside your device. They would swear up and down it had never been within a thousand miles of water, and I was trying to "cheat" them. Thats not exactly the best way to get someone to want to help you ...
Others are more comical yet more annoying. There was a person who brought in their three year, four month old computer that had been smashed into pieces, and then proceeded to tell us that not only was Apple to blame for it, but we also had to replace it with a brand new 15" MacBook Pro (she had a 15" PowerBook) and recover all the data and preinstall all her lost programs. We when we confronted her with the fact her computer had no AppleCare on it, that even if it had been covered by AppleCare; 1) AppleCare wouldn't cover accidental damage, and 2) any AppleCare she could have purchased for it would have expired four months prior. She became belligerent and started a diatribe about how Apple had "cheated" her, and it was ridiculous, and she was going to sue us personally and Apple ... blah. blah, blah.
Her view might seem melodramatic, but it is rather evocative of a common trend of customer who bring their devices in for repair -- the attitude that someone bad happened to their device that isn't covered under warranty, but Apple should still be required to fix it for free. And we're talking about some pretty spectacular and comprehensive damage in some cases. I found that car analogies tended to work quite well in getting the point across. I told this woman, "Could you buy a new car from a dealer, drive it for three years and four months, then get in an accident and take it back to the dealer and damand that they fix it for free?" Then she started going off on how cars have insurance and that AppleCare is like insurance, so it should be covered. Of course, then I had to point out that car insurance is specifically designed for covering accidents whereas AppleCare was simply an extension (not indefinite) of the factory warranty. "It's not like you can buy an iMac, walk out the door, then smash it on the sidewalk, walk back in, and say 'I'd like to have to repaired for free.'" "Why not?" she said. "Because accidental damage is not covered by AppleCare." She insightfully responded, "so if I intentionally damage my computer I AM covered!" "No," I said "if you intentionally damage your computer you're an idiot."
THESE are the type of people that cause Apple to take these actions, and they are far more common than you might believe. It was far more refreshing, and I was more inclined to help the ones that would at least tell the truth -- sometimes though the damage was so extensive there wasn't any way to help them.
If you go in and say, "Look, I know this isn't covered, but I was using my iPod and I dropped it, and now the touch interface doesn't work anymore." 9 times out of 10 the genius will try everything they can think of to fix it (within what they're allowed to do). If you come in and say "I bought this last week and now the touch screen doesn't work anymore, and you better fix it for free (even though you know you dropped it" the genius will only do as much as is required, and send you on your way with your broken iPod.
Usually, people who do or have stupid things happen to their things will find some way to blame it all on someone else no matter how much it was their own fault. I can remember;
1) The lady who tried to convince me her soft plastic cover for her solid aluminum MacBook Pro had caused the uniform 15 degree bend down the center of her computer.
2) The man who told me his iPod Touch was defective because the sides of the device did not respond to input.
3) The person who dropped their 24" iMac when they got home, and smashed the screen into oblivion - yet somehow it was Apple's fault.
4) The lady who accused me of breaking her computer when I opened it in front of her and the logic board was covered in milk ... "I didn't do that," she said "YOU did!"
5) The man who peeled back to sides to his aluminum PowerBook because he couldn't figure out how to replace the hard drive, and demanded Apple fix the damage, and replace the casing.
I would like someone to test this indicator in a bathroom after a long hot shower.
i have my phone in the bathroom all the time. long, hot, steamy showers. the outside is damp, the indicators have yet to go off.
also, the lights are external but the actual sensor is in the middle of the phone. or at least it was in the 3g. my roommate dropped his and it was before they would just replace the screen so we took it apart.
As for the language, i'm not shocked. Some folks probably have an issue with the notion that they cover deficits (ie stuff that is basically their fault) and not damage (stuff that if your fault) and what is which. so they have to spell it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe
He, like a many of us, reads the Apple news sites and blogs. And he's right--there HAVE been an awful lot of reports of false-positive moisture sensors.
Define 'a lot'. There are several million iphones out there. So exactly how many have been brought in for a repair with tripped sensors and you can prove that the person wasn't lying. Or even desregard that. assume they are all telling the truth. Are we talking a 100, a 1000, what.
Chances are that that 'awful lot' comes out to less than 1% of all the iphones out there and probably less than 10% of all the phones brought in for repairs with even one tripped sensor.
According to Apples spec, many of us can't use the IPhone or IPod touch. If you live in a foggy area, like San Francisco, 100% humidity, do not take your phone outside. If you live in a hot area, (over 95 degrees), do not take you phone outside. Too dry? under 5%, same thing. Under 30 degrees, keep it at home. The real world is the real world. Even our troops use Apple products in Iraq, are they excluded also?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamG
Moisture coming through a concrete basement floor and walls due to moist soil on the outside may be as much as 100 pints per day.
Most Minnesota basements get quite humid in summer. Our relatively low soil temperatures chill foundation walls and floors, cooling the air. This raises the relative humidity of basements in summer.
The point is that Apple's specs exclude use by people who escape to their finished basement in the summer. Whether or not such an exclusion is OK is another question.
And with regard to how the legal system in the US works you are about 180° off center. There is a myriad of lawyers who solicit and encourage litigation of this sort because they believe that merely filing suit and some discovery motions will force the Defendant into a settlement. True multi-state class actions are huge undertakings that look to a prospective settlement pool of many hundreds of millions of dollars. A claim of a defective sensor in a $500 product is not the basis for such a claim.
This situation in class actions and tort law in general will not abate until we adopt what is known as the English Rule. Loser pays. If you sue and you lose - you pay the other sides legal fees and costs. Good bye to "The Cochran Firm" "Mike Slocum Law Firm" et. al.
The flaws in such a system can be seen in the McDonald's Restaurants v Morris & Steel. It took 20 years to get the unfair judgment against Morris & Steel reversed.
It also would put the average person on an even more uneven playing field against out of control groups like the RIAA then they already are on.
It certainly wouldn't stop the patent troll mess for which Marshall, Texas has become the poster child of everything that is wrong with the US patent system.
Finally you have things like Psystar which leave the issue of even if Apple finally gets the award Psystar won't ever be able to pay so Apple is still out all the money that it took to sue Psystar--money that could have gone into hiring more workers, making a better product, etc.
I had my first 3G for a little over a year & pulled it out of my pocket (no case) to answer it during a misty day. In short order it went kaput. First thing the Genius did at the Apple Store was look down the headphone jack & he said it was an Issue that was NOT covered. $199 later I had a new (refurbished?) phone. The good news is my contract was not extended. I did go buy an iSkin case that has plugs for every orifice. My real complaint is that the phone is so sensitive to moisture when the main use will be outdoors. If this lawsuit is indeed legit, I hop she prevails.
When a customer sends it to Apple directly, it's dropped off at a post office wrapped in bubble wrap etc and sent overnight.
Maybe there you live. Here in Poland you send iPhone to the GSM provider shop (first freeze/warm), then they send it to the messengers central (second freeze/warm), and next the phone goes to repair service (third freeze/warm).
I know it is the matter of moisture condensation from temperature change but when you send your phone, you have no influence on it. In my article I show it is matter of luck if you loose your guarantee.
Comments
I must applaud you friend, very well said. I work in retail and what it comes down to always and every day is attitude. I have gone out of my way and bent the rules many times for customers simply because they were nice and reasonable and polite. Too many people walk around acting like the world owes them something, i dont care if you pay monthly service, i dont care how much you spent on this item, nothing gives you the right to treat another person in a rude, degrading negative manor unless they met you with the same treatment first. I have been on both sides of the customer service counter and i have found that being nice, polite, understanding and patient go a very long way. In the end when someone says to you, im sorry there is nothing i can do for you, it really means "i probably could have helped you, possibly bent a rule here or there to make things happen for you, but youre a rude inconsiderate jerk, have a nice day."
Now more on topic, i have had my fair share of dealings with Liquid damage indicators and to be honest most people dont really understand how they work. when people think about liquid damage they think dunked in water. but there are many types of situations in which your phone can be exposed to liquid without you even being aware. Moisture, rain, humidity, condensation, steam, etc. To put it in a way one could understand, if you took your dvd player out in the rain would you expect it to work? better yet would you expect the manufacturer to cover your replacement? absolutely not.
Now i must say that at times i have found them too sensitive. I have touched one with my finger by accident and the simple oils on my hand triggered the LDI. however a phone is a piece of electronic equipment, and just as we keep our TVs, dvd players, stereos and other devices away from moisture and liquids, the same type of care should be applied to a phone. Just because you didnt witness the exposure to liquid doesnt mean it didnt happen. Sorry but i hope apple wins this one.
So you hope Apple wins if it shows that an LSI can be triggered by touching it?
Really?
Say you buy an AppleCare warranty that extends the coverage to two years, and an LSI is triggered two months after you bought it. You're saying that if your iPhone needs service because something goes wrong with it -- unable to load apps, unable to put it to sleep, unable to use certain features, anything -- Apple should be able to make you pay to fix or replace it based on nothing more than a red or pink LSI? Even though -- by definition -- an LSI is nothing more than an INDICATOR of damage, not PROOF that you actually DAMAGED your iPhone with liquid, justifies the cancellation of your warranty?
I don't think anyone is saying Apple should pay if a customer has carelessly or deliberately damaged his iPhone by spilling water on it or dunking it in the toilet. The issue is whether Apple is using a triggered LSI, without more, as proof that someone did that as a way to get out of having to pay to fix something that may have nothing to do with damage by liquid.
I'm a bit skeptical of the false positive problem if in fact the description of the independent testing is accurate. Who would let their phone be exposed to -11C temps for an hour at a time, three times in a row? If you're outside in those temps, the phone will be in a pocket or close to your body - your body heat alone will keep it from getting that cold.
Apple's own documented policies are likely to be quite benign, as well. I'd bet the "use the indicators as a possible flag for concern, but not as 100 percent proof" policy is in there.
Where I think the problem lies is Apple employees who, for whatever reason, don't want to help a customer they don't like and use a tripped indicator as a reason for denial. If the documented Apple policy is legal, but the way the employees are implementing the policy is sketchy, then the lawsuit has some problems. How do you prove that Apple employees are being overly aggressive in denying claims because of tripped indicators? I don't think there's any question that some Apple employees are probably too aggressive in denying claims because of the indicators, but if that's not a company-wide policy I have a hard time seeing how the plaintiffs sustain a class action. (You have to show that all class members have been treated alike, and if the problem is ad hoc and subject to anecdotal proof at best, that's hard to do).
In some respects this lawsuit is not as frivolous as a lot of the crap that Apple has to deal with, but I'm still skeptical that it can succeed. Once you lose class action status, the economics of the case become untenable for the plaintiff's counsel.
And yes I am a lawyer, and I have defeated a putative class action on similar grounds in the past.
Apple's own documented policies are likely to be quite benign, as well. I'd bet the "use the indicators as a possible flag for concern, but not as 100 percent proof" policy is in there.
How do you prove that Apple employees are being overly aggressive in denying claims because of tripped indicators?
A parade of reasonable-acting people telling their sob stories to the jury? I'm no litigator, but isn't that the way it is done?
A parade of reasonable-acting people telling their sob stories to the jury? I'm no litigator, but isn't that the way it is done?
Unlike many other places, yes this type of civil matter could be held as a trial with a jury though it's quite likely the Court would decide otherwise. If it's heard in a Court of the state though it's more likely that they may not use a jury at all for what, if at all, is likely to be just a pecuniary consideration.
Although they offer insurance that cover liquid damage on wireless phones, only two phones are not eligible for coverage under it: the GoPhone (a pre-paid disposable) and the iPhone.
http://www.wireless.att.com/learn/ba...-insurance.jsp
The iPhone box isn't used the person seeking repair keeps it, it's wrapped in bubble wrap, inside a cardboard box, inside a sealed plastic bag, delivered overnight.
When a customer sends it to Apple directly, it's dropped off at a post office wrapped in bubble wrap etc and sent overnight.
It seems a lot of people commenting here have not replaced or sent phones away for repair, the only thing sent. with all phones is the phone the customer keeps everything including the back and the battery (unless it's a battery issue).
If a moisture sensor is tripped on any phone we offer to send it for further assessment rather than replacing it on the spot, the technicians take photo's of any damage they find before rejecting a warranty.
Water condensing on the LSI is also condensing inside the phone, thus causing damage.
If I use my iPhone inside my bathroom I make sure it is next to an open window so that airflow keeps condensing water away from it.
You are not right. Please, read the original article. Three attempts as it is the way the iPhone goes from the phone owner to the repair service.
Well, if she has halfway decent lawyers, they may have gotten enough information from the manufacturer of the LCI to know a) how reliable they are and b) what information Apple was given about the reliability.
As for your comment re lawyers, that's the way the system works in this country. One benefit of this is that lawyers won't generally take a case that they don't think they have a reasonable chance of winning because they'll just end up losing money on it.
Clearly you have no experience in manufacturing or purchasing: a) No manufacturer will voluntarily provide information indicating that it sells a defective product and b) Apple would not source a defective OEM product because it simply invites problems. If you are suggesting that Apple sourced the LCIs because they were known to provide false positives as a way to avoid warranty claims you are truly smoking something.
And with regard to how the legal system in the US works you are about 180° off center. There is a myriad of lawyers who solicit and encourage litigation of this sort because they believe that merely filing suit and some discovery motions will force the Defendant into a settlement. True multi-state class actions are huge undertakings that look to a prospective settlement pool of many hundreds of millions of dollars. A claim of a defective sensor in a $500 product is not the basis for such a claim.
This situation in class actions and tort law in general will not abate until we adopt what is known as the English Rule. Loser pays. If you sue and you lose - you pay the other sides legal fees and costs. Good bye to "The Cochran Firm" "Mike Slocum Law Firm" et. al.
btw- the term "Law Firm" is used advisedly here.
So would you rather pay more for your phones so that phone manufacturers can cover the cost of fraudulent claims?
This liquid sensor thing is a full of crap, just another excuse for Apple not to take responsibilities for its own products.
They're all off warranty and still working perfectly, so it's of no consequence to me, but the fact remains that every one of these never wet devices are indicating that they've all been submerged.
Apple and all the other phone manufacturers.
So would you rather pay more for your phones so that phone manufacturers can cover the cost of fraudulent claims?
No, I think it's one of the manufacturers' responsibilities to offer the reliable products, including the sensor. Either they should produce the higher quality sensor, or make it more flexible at the store to accept the warranty repairs, instead of flat out "no."
I can tell you from experience there are A LOT of people who do stupid things, or have stupid things happen to their devices and then lie about it to the Genius/Specialist and then get belligerent when they're called on it. There are also people who legitimately have an issue, and didn't violate their warranty, but there are by far the minority and usually are easier to spot out.
If you've done any sort of work at all with repairing or diagnosing Apple products it becomes evident almost half the time at a prima face glance that someone is lying. If a device really has been dunked in water, or dropped onto a hard surface you can deny it all you want, but the truth is right there in front of you. I understand no one likes having bad things happen to them, and most of the time the damage is unintentional ... just man up to it, and you're half way to a better experience when you go in for service.
I can't even count how many times I would open up computers or iPods and all the components would either be completely corroded or still covered in moisture, and the owners who get angry and continue to emphatically deny their device had ever come in contact with liquid. Its one thing when its an ambigous reading on a moisture sensor ... its another when theres a half cup of water still inside your device. They would swear up and down it had never been within a thousand miles of water, and I was trying to "cheat" them. Thats not exactly the best way to get someone to want to help you ...
Others are more comical yet more annoying. There was a person who brought in their three year, four month old computer that had been smashed into pieces, and then proceeded to tell us that not only was Apple to blame for it, but we also had to replace it with a brand new 15" MacBook Pro (she had a 15" PowerBook) and recover all the data and preinstall all her lost programs. We when we confronted her with the fact her computer had no AppleCare on it, that even if it had been covered by AppleCare; 1) AppleCare wouldn't cover accidental damage, and 2) any AppleCare she could have purchased for it would have expired four months prior. She became belligerent and started a diatribe about how Apple had "cheated" her, and it was ridiculous, and she was going to sue us personally and Apple ... blah. blah, blah.
Her view might seem melodramatic, but it is rather evocative of a common trend of customer who bring their devices in for repair -- the attitude that someone bad happened to their device that isn't covered under warranty, but Apple should still be required to fix it for free. And we're talking about some pretty spectacular and comprehensive damage in some cases. I found that car analogies tended to work quite well in getting the point across. I told this woman, "Could you buy a new car from a dealer, drive it for three years and four months, then get in an accident and take it back to the dealer and damand that they fix it for free?" Then she started going off on how cars have insurance and that AppleCare is like insurance, so it should be covered. Of course, then I had to point out that car insurance is specifically designed for covering accidents whereas AppleCare was simply an extension (not indefinite) of the factory warranty. "It's not like you can buy an iMac, walk out the door, then smash it on the sidewalk, walk back in, and say 'I'd like to have to repaired for free.'" "Why not?" she said. "Because accidental damage is not covered by AppleCare." She insightfully responded, "so if I intentionally damage my computer I AM covered!" "No," I said "if you intentionally damage your computer you're an idiot."
THESE are the type of people that cause Apple to take these actions, and they are far more common than you might believe. It was far more refreshing, and I was more inclined to help the ones that would at least tell the truth -- sometimes though the damage was so extensive there wasn't any way to help them.
If you go in and say, "Look, I know this isn't covered, but I was using my iPod and I dropped it, and now the touch interface doesn't work anymore." 9 times out of 10 the genius will try everything they can think of to fix it (within what they're allowed to do). If you come in and say "I bought this last week and now the touch screen doesn't work anymore, and you better fix it for free (even though you know you dropped it" the genius will only do as much as is required, and send you on your way with your broken iPod.
Usually, people who do or have stupid things happen to their things will find some way to blame it all on someone else no matter how much it was their own fault. I can remember;
1) The lady who tried to convince me her soft plastic cover for her solid aluminum MacBook Pro had caused the uniform 15 degree bend down the center of her computer.
2) The man who told me his iPod Touch was defective because the sides of the device did not respond to input.
3) The person who dropped their 24" iMac when they got home, and smashed the screen into oblivion - yet somehow it was Apple's fault.
4) The lady who accused me of breaking her computer when I opened it in front of her and the logic board was covered in milk ... "I didn't do that," she said "YOU did!"
5) The man who peeled back to sides to his aluminum PowerBook because he couldn't figure out how to replace the hard drive, and demanded Apple fix the damage, and replace the casing.
I could go on all day ...
Deny warranty repairs = bigger profits.
I would like someone to test this indicator in a bathroom after a long hot shower.
i have my phone in the bathroom all the time. long, hot, steamy showers. the outside is damp, the indicators have yet to go off.
also, the lights are external but the actual sensor is in the middle of the phone. or at least it was in the 3g. my roommate dropped his and it was before they would just replace the screen so we took it apart.
As for the language, i'm not shocked. Some folks probably have an issue with the notion that they cover deficits (ie stuff that is basically their fault) and not damage (stuff that if your fault) and what is which. so they have to spell it out.
He, like a many of us, reads the Apple news sites and blogs. And he's right--there HAVE been an awful lot of reports of false-positive moisture sensors.
Define 'a lot'. There are several million iphones out there. So exactly how many have been brought in for a repair with tripped sensors and you can prove that the person wasn't lying. Or even desregard that. assume they are all telling the truth. Are we talking a 100, a 1000, what.
Chances are that that 'awful lot' comes out to less than 1% of all the iphones out there and probably less than 10% of all the phones brought in for repairs with even one tripped sensor.
Nope. If you treat customers with legitimate complaints badly, you lose business.
True but you don't want to give away the store to the jerks who want to game the system.
Moisture coming through a concrete basement floor and walls due to moist soil on the outside may be as much as 100 pints per day.
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ageng/structu/ae1204w.htm
Most Minnesota basements get quite humid in summer. Our relatively low soil temperatures chill foundation walls and floors, cooling the air. This raises the relative humidity of basements in summer.
http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle.../11311346.html
The point is that Apple's specs exclude use by people who escape to their finished basement in the summer. Whether or not such an exclusion is OK is another question.
And with regard to how the legal system in the US works you are about 180° off center. There is a myriad of lawyers who solicit and encourage litigation of this sort because they believe that merely filing suit and some discovery motions will force the Defendant into a settlement. True multi-state class actions are huge undertakings that look to a prospective settlement pool of many hundreds of millions of dollars. A claim of a defective sensor in a $500 product is not the basis for such a claim.
This situation in class actions and tort law in general will not abate until we adopt what is known as the English Rule. Loser pays. If you sue and you lose - you pay the other sides legal fees and costs. Good bye to "The Cochran Firm" "Mike Slocum Law Firm" et. al.
The flaws in such a system can be seen in the McDonald's Restaurants v Morris & Steel. It took 20 years to get the unfair judgment against Morris & Steel reversed.
It also would put the average person on an even more uneven playing field against out of control groups like the RIAA then they already are on.
It certainly wouldn't stop the patent troll mess for which Marshall, Texas has become the poster child of everything that is wrong with the US patent system.
Finally you have things like Psystar which leave the issue of even if Apple finally gets the award Psystar won't ever be able to pay so Apple is still out all the money that it took to sue Psystar--money that could have gone into hiring more workers, making a better product, etc.
When a customer sends it to Apple directly, it's dropped off at a post office wrapped in bubble wrap etc and sent overnight.
Maybe there you live. Here in Poland you send iPhone to the GSM provider shop (first freeze/warm), then they send it to the messengers central (second freeze/warm), and next the phone goes to repair service (third freeze/warm).
I know it is the matter of moisture condensation from temperature change but when you send your phone, you have no influence on it. In my article I show it is matter of luck if you loose your guarantee.