Steve Jobs slams Adobe Flash as unfit for modern era

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  • Reply 41 of 350
    chronsterchronster Posts: 1,894member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bloodstains View Post


    I think this is a great idea and something that Adobe could really do well at if they persued it.



    Adobe already has tools for flash to html5 conversion, and on top of that a lot of html5 authoring tools are already sold by Adobe now.



    Please can everyone stop talking out of their ass and use google for just a few seconds before posting?



    here's an interview with mark randall

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aafYF-hLHvo
  • Reply 42 of 350
    Perfect, Steve, and you're going to have to write another exposition of the LAW and business reality in clear language to dispel the 'Apphole' meme. Yes you have to educate the masses who have lost their moral, ethical and legal compass.



    Love live the facts, logic and truth! Dispel darkness forevermore!



    Steve does not want Adobe to die. He wants them to get off their lazy butts and return to greatness. They started going bad when they charged insane amounts for their fonts, and have been off track ever since. Resurrect the original Adobe.
  • Reply 43 of 350
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,745member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by agl82 View Post


    You managed to reply to my comment without confronting its central thesis. Steve Jobs claims that Adobe's Flash technology is proprietary. This is a fact. Flash IS proprietary. However, Steve also claims that HTML5 (which includes H.264 for video playback) is an "open standard". His words:



    "...we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open. Rather than use Flash, Apple has adopted HTML5, CSS and JavaScript ? all open standards."




    This is undeniably false. H.264 is a proprietary codec which must be licensed from MPEG LA. It is not "open" in any sense whatsoever. Steve Jobs is, therefore, a liar.




    Royalty-free until 2016.
  • Reply 44 of 350
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


    "Adobe has been painfully slow to adopt enhancements to Apple’s platforms. For example, although Mac OS X has been shipping for almost 10 years now, Adobe just adopted it fully (Cocoa) two weeks ago when they shipped CS5.



    I appreciate this letter and it's all true, but I don't think Adobe should be chastised for just going to Cocoa when so many of Apple's own apps are still running in Carbon.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    A bit misleading, don't you think, since the fees are waived through 2015, by which time there will likely be a new standard, and I don't think there's any evidence to support the assertion that Ogg Theora, "works nearly as well," unless one is very liberal in the meaning of 'nearly'. Firefox risks slipping into irrelevance if they don't get on board.



    Firefox is going against GPU and CPU leaders industry from the HW to the OS to the browser. There is no way that they can win against MS, Apple, Google, Intel, Nvidia, and every ARM-based device.



    The only saving grace for Firefox and Opera is Google's purchase of VP8. They might be able to make it better than H.264 in the long run, get into chips for decoding and even make it free or charge. But for the next 5 years H.264 is where it's at and Firefox will just fall behind as companies aren't going to want to encode Theora and H.264 when only one is good quality and HW decoded.



    edit: Pipped by addicted44. Doh!





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bytor View Post


    Hmmmm...



    Which iPhone is he using where there is 10 hours of video playing?



    hile I figure he's using the next gen iPhone at this point, the current one can do 10 hours of H.264 video.
    The beauty of H.264 is the decoding in HW from so many major players. Ogg really sucks!
  • Reply 45 of 350
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,582member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by agl82 View Post


    "...we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open. Rather than use Flash, Apple has adopted HTML5, CSS and JavaScript ? all open standards."[/B]



    This is undeniably false. H.264 is a proprietary codec which must be licensed from MPEG LA. It is not "open" in any sense whatsoever. Steve Jobs is, therefore, a liar.




    Do you even know what open means?
  • Reply 46 of 350
    chronsterchronster Posts: 1,894member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post


    Royalty-free until 2016.



    And we'll all be dead by then anyways.



    2012, HELLOOOO?
  • Reply 47 of 350
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tazinlwfl View Post


    W3C decided to use H.264 as part of their standard because of its current wide implementation. They made a deal with MPEG to waive the fees b/c it will be part of the OPEN HTML5 web standard.



    Except, it most likely wont be part of the HTML5 standard. The WHATWG group (the one with all the browsers as members, and which has really driven development of HTML5) seems to be okay with not specifying a codec in the standard. I think the W3C will also do the same.



    Also, its not like there isn't a precedent for this. Consider the IMG tag. You can post JPEG, GIF, PNG, or any other image format you would like. It all works. The same should/will be true of the video tag, although, much like the case of IMG tag, one format will end up being most popular (JPEG for images, and H.264 for video).
  • Reply 48 of 350
    eightzeroeightzero Posts: 2,504member
    Ignore the content for just a second and consider the delivery. Steve is the very recognizable face of Apple Inc., and he essentially throws down directly at a competitor. Where is "Mr. Adobe?" How will he respond? There really isn't a credible way for anyone at Adobe to respond - no one will listen to some non-descript VP of corporate isoterica explain why Apple is wrong. In this case, Steve is right because he is Steve.



    Steve and Apple have this craft down to an Art. There is *no way* for Adobe to debate these issues with their now disappearing supporters. Sure, argue in their stead, but Apple wins this whole thing where it matters hands down because Jobs spells chapter and verse of why he's right. It doesn't matter if he really is.
  • Reply 49 of 350
    crowleycrowley Posts: 6,063member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by agl82 View Post


    You managed to reply to my comment without confronting its central thesis. Steve Jobs claims that Adobe's Flash technology is proprietary. This is a fact. Flash IS proprietary. However, Steve also claims that HTML5 (which includes H.264 for video playback) is an "open standard". His words:



    "...we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open. Rather than use Flash, Apple has adopted HTML5, CSS and JavaScript ? all open standards."




    This is undeniably false. H.264 is a proprietary codec which must be licensed from MPEG LA. It is not "open" in any sense whatsoever. Steve Jobs is, therefore, a liar.




    What you are saying is undeniably false. HTML5 does not "include" h.264 for video playback, the format for embedding video with the video tag within HTML5 is currently undefined.
  • Reply 50 of 350
    No matter what you think of Apple or Adobe, a few things should be pretty obvious.



    Adobe SHOULD have gotten off their butts and made a serious attempt at engaging Apple at a high level on this subject. The feeling I get is Adobe didn't think much of the iPhone, and certainly never embraced OSX.



    Adobe is a much, much smaller company whose earnings are increasingly unreliable and who should be looking out for their own good by preemptively seeking solutions.



    Again, I get the feeling they rode their Flash wagon and never stopped to engage Apple on this at all.



    Again, they have a lot to loose. Apple does not. This is not fanboy drivel. This is a fact. Adobe is not a healthy company and instead of partnering, or trying to solve issues they have ignored Apple and the platform.



    I have used Adobe products since, gawd,, 1990 or so. And there is no doubt that the experience is not been getting better.



    No matter what you feel bout the Flash issue, everyone would have to agree that Adobe injured their relationship with Apple and are now trying to strong arm them with all the vitriol they have unleashed. I think a wiser method would have been to just quietly work on the issue instead of declaring war. Obviously their corporate leaders didn't think this out. They could have remained quietly working away on amazing solutions for mobile Flash. Solutions that save battery and integrate touch.



    Instead they threw a tantrum. And they may have done more damage than they can repair. We can watch their stock and earnings. Maybe HP will have to buy them to.
  • Reply 51 of 350
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,215member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bytor View Post


    Hmmmm...



    Which iPhone is he using where there is 10 hours of video playing?



    i love how people always miss those two very very important works up to
  • Reply 52 of 350
    activate reality distortion field!
  • Reply 53 of 350
    Take that, Shantanu!
  • Reply 54 of 350
    scotty321scotty321 Posts: 313member
    Bravo, Steve Jobs!!! OUTSTANDING LETTER!!!
  • Reply 55 of 350
    agl82agl82 Posts: 15member
    .
  • Reply 56 of 350
    markbmarkb Posts: 153member
    Quote:

    For example, although Mac OS X has been shipping for almost 10 years now, Adobe just adopted it fully (Cocoa) two weeks ago when they shipped CS5



    Isnt iTunes still Carbon based? I agree that Adobe drags its feet at best, but if the heart of your media empire hasnt "fully" adopted Mac OS X then....

    iTunes performs reasonably on most of my Macs but I do have to say that it can freeze the system at will when it decides it needs to. I guess it being their main cross-platform effort limits them as much as it limits Adobe.



    retract my comment if I am wrong about iTunes.
  • Reply 57 of 350
    welshdogwelshdog Posts: 1,695member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


    New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind.





    Steve Jobs

    April, 2010



    Wow.



    That happened.
  • Reply 58 of 350
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by agl82 View Post


    You managed to reply to my comment without confronting its central thesis. Steve Jobs claims that Adobe's Flash technology is proprietary. This is a fact. Flash IS proprietary. However, Steve also claims that HTML5 (which includes H.264 for video playback) is an "open standard". His words:



    "...we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open. Rather than use Flash, Apple has adopted HTML5, CSS and JavaScript – all open standards."




    This is undeniably false. H.264 is a proprietary codec which must be licensed from MPEG LA. It is not "open" in any sense whatsoever. Steve Jobs is, therefore, a liar.




    It has become apparent that you don't understand the difference between Open as in Open Source and open as in Open Standard. Take an hour, read both pages and hopefully you'll realize that just because they both contain the word Open, doesn't mean that they have to be the same thing.



    If Steve had claimed that H.264 is simply Open, then your argument might have merit. However, he did not, his use of the term falls inline with many (most) of the formal definitions for the term by Standards Development Organizations, and as a result you are are the one who is wrong.
  • Reply 59 of 350
    tazinlwfltazinlwfl Posts: 117member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addicted44 View Post


    Except, it most likely wont be part of the HTML5 standard. The WHATWG group (the one with all the browsers as members, and which has really driven development of HTML5) seems to be okay with not specifying a codec in the standard. I think the W3C will also do the same.



    Also, its not like there isn't a precedent for this. Consider the IMG tag. You can post JPEG, GIF, PNG, or any other image format you would like. It all works. The same should/will be true of the video tag, although, much like the case of IMG tag, one format will end up being most popular (JPEG for images, and H.264 for video).



    [I changed my post to say "support", because like you say, that's essentially what they are saying]



    I like that I can use H.264 in almost any video container. There is an h264 container, but generally you'd use .mp4, .mov, .avi, etc... it's really up to the browsers to support the codec (but the W3C does need to define its support for the codecs, which is where the problems lay).
  • Reply 60 of 350
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,215member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by walshbj View Post


    I'm pretty surprised he felt compelled to write this letter.



    Easy. He wrote it to shut up the people that are bad mouthing the decision not to support Flash on the ipad etc. To give Apple's side of what is not just some sandbox fight or just about supporting app sales etc.



    And here's the fun, how many sites etc have moved to stand on Apple's side, or at least on the line since the ipad was announced and released. Netflix makes an app; ABC makes an app; CBS announces an HTML5 version of their video site; even more rumors of a Hulu app; youtube, which has always had an app, beta tests html5; facebook is testing HTML5 for videos; farmville, one of the biggest games on facebook, is rumored to be working on an app and so on.
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