Within this year or next year smart phones and mobile internet devices sales are goin to surpass the PC. All they need are HTML5 compliant browsers to support the standard. The three major smart phone manufacturers do support HTML5. Flash is getting left out of the devices that will soon dominate web usage.
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Within this year or next, Android will be the dominant mobile platform. And it supports Flash 10.1.
Flash has no EOL in sight, but there are certain aspects of Flash that will continue to drop out of favour from here on out.
Flash still has plenty of reasons to exist so as you state, "companies won't be jumping on the HTML5-only bandwagon" but they will be moving more into non-Flash as the standard with Flash as the fallback more many things we used to think were only capable with Flash.
Everytime I read an article and thread like this which seem to dominate this forum lately I start to wonder one thing. What if Apple and Adobe actually put as much energy trying to get a good mobile version of Flash instead of putting all their energy into bashing each other and taking the time to write stupid letters.
With a little effort on the hardware end from Apple and some effort on the optimization end from Adobe this just doesn't seem like a massive issue.
Yes, Flash for OSX is a major CPU hog which impacts Windows users far less, but some of that appears to be resolved in 10.1.
Its really annoying because it seems like both these companies wants to bitch about who is right on this issue rather then working together to fix it. Which in the long run benefits their customers.
Within this year or next, Android will be the dominant mobile platform. And it supports Flash 10.1.
Wow! you certainly have provided irrefutable facts to back up your statements!
I'm convinced! Monday, I am going to pop down to my local phone store and buy one of these Android phones running Flash 10.1. Which one do you suggest I buy? I have a compelling need to surf the "full web" on my smart phone.
And, I guess most of the Apple fans, here, should log off AppleInsider, then ramble on over to one of the AndroidInsider forums, to compare Flash experiences!
Your whole argument is a giant fallacy. You assume a whole lot of stuff with little to no proof.
How are they going to be the minority if IE6+IE7 is still the majority? And even if falls down quite a bit more, a 30% minority, for example, is still a significant number. Websites will cater to that, like it or not. Just like IE's lingering presence made most of the web IE6 compatible for over 6 years.
Some quick searching for browser stats by version shows IE 6+7 totals about 30%. Since when has 30% been a majority of anything? They do make up about half the IE users currently tho.
Some quick searching for browser stats by version shows IE 6+7 totals about 30%. Since when has 30% been a majority of anything? They do make up about half the IE users currently tho.
35.29 to be exact.
About the same as IE8, the most used browser. I wonder, do you know that if someone has 35%, another 30, another 20%, the one with 35% is still a majority? It's still more than firefox, or chrome or safari.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
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For all you Flashers out there... I am curious-- does mobile Flash support OpenGL ES?
If so, what versions?
What GPUs are supported?
What versions of Android OS are supported?
.
Does it matter? It's not supposed to be either one or the other. Flash on mobile won't stop development on whichever native language a mobile phone supports. But, for example, an on-line poker site wants to have a mobile client. Flash would be a great tool to facilitate that, since it would work more or less the same on every phone with a touchpad that supported it. You don't need a beefy processor or state of the art interfaces. Just something that works on most mobile phones.
About the same as IE8, the most used browser. I wonder, do you know that if someone has 35%, another 30, another 20%, the one with 35% is still a majority? It's still more than firefox, or chrome or safari.
When the category is IE 6+7 vs Everyone Else, they total 35%, everything else is 65%. That means they are clearly a minority. The other browsers are all more current as far as standards go.
It's not about iPhone OS v. Flash or Apple v. Flash. It's about efficiency v. inefficiency. Flash still has plenty of areas that it's more efficient for devs to code for on the desktop because HTML5, CSS3 and these JS frameworks and browsers are so new. But that won't last forever. Now that much of this is in place they can start building tools that will chip away at Flash's backend dominance. "All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again.". On the mobile platform Adobe has sank their own battleship, so to speak. They failed to make Flash viable for mobiles. They failed to have Flash ready for touch devices. Now we have HTML5 alive and well in every major mobile OS browser and we have streaming video (their battleship) without the use of Flash.
I wouldn't say that it's simply because HTML 5, CSS 3 and JavaScript are so new (and you probably didn?t mean it that way). As a developer, it is very appealing to use a technology like Flash or Silverlight since they will render content and behave exactly the same across the multitude of browsers. Although it would be nice to just use HTML, CSS, JavaScript for building web applications, the idea of making the pages compatible across browsers is appalling. There are even rendering differences between the major web browsers for the new versions (HTML 5 and CSS 3).
This problem will likely be around for quite some time -- until the major web browsers render HTML, apply CSS and execute JavaScript exactly the same. Some of the standards the companies building browsers are trying to support are so complex that it is incredibly hard to have the exact same implementation.
When the category is IE 6+7 vs Everyone Else, they total 35%, everything else is 65%. That means they are clearly a minority. The other browsers are all more current as far as standards go.
So, if they are the most used tool (tied with ie8) to access the web they aren't a majority?
And you miss the point entirely. Only html5, around 65% can see with no problems. Flash maybe 98%.
the number i hear quoted is about 100. out of 200,000. and apparently none of them are rated all that good (does anybody have a list?)
i'm sure we're going to survive the loss...
easy now, I have no information on whether they are good or not, other than they were accepted into tha app store at one point. I was just mentioning something I found out recently, and wondered what will happen with those apps. I assume since they likely won't adhere to the new rules they'll be wiped.
I wouldn't say that it's simply because HTML 5, CSS 3 and JavaScript are so new (and you probably didn’t mean it that way). As a developer, it is very appealing to use a technology like Flash or Silverlight since they will render content and behave exactly the same across the multitude of browsers. Although it would be nice to just use HTML, CSS, JavaScript for building web applications, the idea of making the pages compatible across browsers is appalling. There are even rendering differences between the major web browsers for the new versions (HTML 5 and CSS 3).
This problem will likely be around for quite some time -- until the major web browsers render HTML, apply CSS and execute JavaScript exactly the same. Some of the standards the companies building browsers are trying to support are so complex that it is incredibly hard to have the exact same implementation.
this is a point a lot of people who aren't web developers seem to gloss over.
When I do develop something using flash, the one thing missing from the mix is the cross browser compatibility stuff. A feature is only as great as it's complete support across all major browsers both current and the ones still in use.
Though disclaimer, (which you need around here it seems), this doesn't by any means detract from the great new capabilities of html5.
For all you Flashers out there... I am curious-- does mobile Flash support OpenGL ES?
If so, what versions?
What GPUs are supported?
What versions of Android OS are supported?
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by err
35.29 to be exact.
About the same as IE8, the most used browser. I wonder, do you know that if someone has 35%, another 30, another 20%, the one with 35% is still a majority? It's still more than firefox, or chrome or safari.
Does it matter? It's not supposed to be either one or the other. Flash on mobile won't stop development on whichever native language a mobile phone supports. But, for example, an on-line poker site wants to have a mobile client. Flash would be a great tool to facilitate that, since it would work more or less the same on every phone with a touchpad that supported it. You don't need a beefy processor or state of the art interfaces. Just something that works on most mobile phones.
Yes it matters to me... I am currently working on 2 apps that use OpenGL. There are some decisions to be made because all versions of iPhone OS do not support all (basically, both) versions of OpenGL ES.
I googled to see how Flash proposed to handle this... and the results suggested they didn't, currently, but would in the future.., I didn't want to start an investigation.
i just thought some of Flash experts, posting here, would know!
So, if they are the most used tool (tied with ie8) to access the web they aren't a majority?
And you miss the point entirely. Only html5, around 65% can see with no problems. Flash maybe 98%.
Which do you think a company would invest in?
If the company doesn't have their head in the sand and sees how the % of people still limited to IE 6 and 7 is eroding monthly, then why would they restrict themselves to those?
Everytime I read an article and thread like this which seem to dominate this forum lately I start to wonder one thing. What if Apple and Adobe actually put as much energy trying to get a good mobile version of Flash instead of putting all their energy into bashing each other and taking the time to write stupid letters.
With a little effort on the hardware end from Apple and some effort on the optimization end from Adobe this just doesn't seem like a massive issue.
Yes, Flash for OSX is a major CPU hog which impacts Windows users far less, but some of that appears to be resolved in 10.1.
Its really annoying because it seems like both these companies wants to bitch about who is right on this issue rather then working together to fix it. Which in the long run benefits their customers.
do you really think apple put a lot of energy into bashing adobe? i see adobe's staff blog a lot lately, certainly bashinging apple (brimelow?), and flash developers post on forums (understandable, we're talking about their living after all). all i've seen from apple is one open letter by mr. jobs and a couple of remarks by some pr person. did i miss something?
Yes it matters to me... I am currently working on 2 apps that use OpenGL. There are some decisions to be made because all versions of iPhone OS do not support all (basically, both) versions of OpenGL ES.
I googled to see how Flash proposed to handle this... and the results suggested they didn't, currently, but would in the future.., I didn't want to start an investigation.
i just thought some of Flash experts, posting here, would know!
.
I personally don't know very much on the subject of openGL ES, as none of my projects currently would ever use it, but if you google it, you'll find out that player 10.1 will support it. So if a project needs it now, don't consider flash.
But somehow, Perhaps I'm wrong, but I suspect you wouldn't consider flash player for a project anyway.
easy now, I have no information on whether they are good or not, other than they were accepted into tha app store at one point. I was just mentioning something I found out recently, and wondered what will happen with those apps. I assume since they likely won't adhere to the new rules they'll be wiped.
i'm still curious to see a list of those apps...
my point was: we're talking about a minute percentage of the overall number. that's kinda the point of the whole thing: adobe claims that apple's app developers are being hamstrung. in reality the people that are being excluded are NOT iphone developers (the 100 apps notwithstanding), but flash developers that want a shortcut into the app store. different thing.
do you really think apple put a lot of energy into bashing adobe? i see adobe's staff blog a lot lately, certainly bashinging apple (brimelow?), and flash developers post on forums (understandable, we're talking about their living after all). all i've seen from apple is one open letter by mr. jobs and a couple of remarks by some pr person. did i miss something?
I see a lot more people bashing adobe on forums than the other way round, but it's likely about even.
And a cursory knowledge of the platform would inform you that should flash go down, I doubt any of the real developers would be out of a living.
my point was: we're talking about a minute percentage of the overall number. that's kinda the point of the whole thing: adobe claims that apple's app developers are being hamstrung. in reality the people that are being excluded are NOT iphone developers (the 100 apps notwithstanding), but flash developers that want a shortcut into the app store. different thing.
I haven't seen a list either, I'll have to dig and find out. As far as I know, there are more than just flash developers looking for a shortcut to the app store. The flash packager thing was a relatively "late-comer" to the party of development platforms that exported to iphone. Unity, and phonegap comes to mind.
Personally, it's easier as a developer or a company to develop once, export for all, certainly this makes business sense obviously. But since I don't have an intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the compilers, and the issues surrounding using or not using native Obj-C, it's hard for me to offer any kind of an informed opinion on that beyond unproven theories.
Comments
Within this year or next year smart phones and mobile internet devices sales are goin to surpass the PC. All they need are HTML5 compliant browsers to support the standard. The three major smart phone manufacturers do support HTML5. Flash is getting left out of the devices that will soon dominate web usage.
.
Within this year or next, Android will be the dominant mobile platform. And it supports Flash 10.1.
Flash has no EOL in sight, but there are certain aspects of Flash that will continue to drop out of favour from here on out.
Flash still has plenty of reasons to exist so as you state, "companies won't be jumping on the HTML5-only bandwagon" but they will be moving more into non-Flash as the standard with Flash as the fallback more many things we used to think were only capable with Flash.
Everytime I read an article and thread like this which seem to dominate this forum lately I start to wonder one thing. What if Apple and Adobe actually put as much energy trying to get a good mobile version of Flash instead of putting all their energy into bashing each other and taking the time to write stupid letters.
With a little effort on the hardware end from Apple and some effort on the optimization end from Adobe this just doesn't seem like a massive issue.
Yes, Flash for OSX is a major CPU hog which impacts Windows users far less, but some of that appears to be resolved in 10.1.
Its really annoying because it seems like both these companies wants to bitch about who is right on this issue rather then working together to fix it. Which in the long run benefits their customers.
Within this year or next, Android will be the dominant mobile platform. And it supports Flash 10.1.
Wow! you certainly have provided irrefutable facts to back up your statements!
I'm convinced! Monday, I am going to pop down to my local phone store and buy one of these Android phones running Flash 10.1. Which one do you suggest I buy? I have a compelling need to surf the "full web" on my smart phone.
And, I guess most of the Apple fans, here, should log off AppleInsider, then ramble on over to one of the AndroidInsider forums, to compare Flash experiences!
Which one will you be visiting?
.
Your whole argument is a giant fallacy. You assume a whole lot of stuff with little to no proof.
How are they going to be the minority if IE6+IE7 is still the majority? And even if falls down quite a bit more, a 30% minority, for example, is still a significant number. Websites will cater to that, like it or not. Just like IE's lingering presence made most of the web IE6 compatible for over 6 years.
Some quick searching for browser stats by version shows IE 6+7 totals about 30%. Since when has 30% been a majority of anything? They do make up about half the IE users currently tho.
For all you Flashers out there... I am curious-- does mobile Flash support OpenGL ES?
If so, what versions?
What GPUs are supported?
What versions of Android OS are supported?
.
Within this year or next, Android will be the dominant mobile platform. And it supports Flash 10.1.
Apple is doomed?!
... is there any other answer to these types of statements...
Some quick searching for browser stats by version shows IE 6+7 totals about 30%. Since when has 30% been a majority of anything? They do make up about half the IE users currently tho.
35.29 to be exact.
About the same as IE8, the most used browser. I wonder, do you know that if someone has 35%, another 30, another 20%, the one with 35% is still a majority? It's still more than firefox, or chrome or safari.
.
For all you Flashers out there... I am curious-- does mobile Flash support OpenGL ES?
If so, what versions?
What GPUs are supported?
What versions of Android OS are supported?
.
Does it matter? It's not supposed to be either one or the other. Flash on mobile won't stop development on whichever native language a mobile phone supports. But, for example, an on-line poker site wants to have a mobile client. Flash would be a great tool to facilitate that, since it would work more or less the same on every phone with a touchpad that supported it. You don't need a beefy processor or state of the art interfaces. Just something that works on most mobile phones.
35.29 to be exact.
About the same as IE8, the most used browser. I wonder, do you know that if someone has 35%, another 30, another 20%, the one with 35% is still a majority? It's still more than firefox, or chrome or safari.
When the category is IE 6+7 vs Everyone Else, they total 35%, everything else is 65%. That means they are clearly a minority. The other browsers are all more current as far as standards go.
It's not about iPhone OS v. Flash or Apple v. Flash. It's about efficiency v. inefficiency. Flash still has plenty of areas that it's more efficient for devs to code for on the desktop because HTML5, CSS3 and these JS frameworks and browsers are so new. But that won't last forever. Now that much of this is in place they can start building tools that will chip away at Flash's backend dominance. "All of this has happened before and all of it will happen again.". On the mobile platform Adobe has sank their own battleship, so to speak. They failed to make Flash viable for mobiles. They failed to have Flash ready for touch devices. Now we have HTML5 alive and well in every major mobile OS browser and we have streaming video (their battleship) without the use of Flash.
I wouldn't say that it's simply because HTML 5, CSS 3 and JavaScript are so new (and you probably didn?t mean it that way). As a developer, it is very appealing to use a technology like Flash or Silverlight since they will render content and behave exactly the same across the multitude of browsers. Although it would be nice to just use HTML, CSS, JavaScript for building web applications, the idea of making the pages compatible across browsers is appalling. There are even rendering differences between the major web browsers for the new versions (HTML 5 and CSS 3).
This problem will likely be around for quite some time -- until the major web browsers render HTML, apply CSS and execute JavaScript exactly the same. Some of the standards the companies building browsers are trying to support are so complex that it is incredibly hard to have the exact same implementation.
When the category is IE 6+7 vs Everyone Else, they total 35%, everything else is 65%. That means they are clearly a minority. The other browsers are all more current as far as standards go.
So, if they are the most used tool (tied with ie8) to access the web they aren't a majority?
And you miss the point entirely. Only html5, around 65% can see with no problems. Flash maybe 98%.
Which do you think a company would invest in?
the number i hear quoted is about 100. out of 200,000. and apparently none of them are rated all that good (does anybody have a list?)
i'm sure we're going to survive the loss...
easy now, I have no information on whether they are good or not, other than they were accepted into tha app store at one point. I was just mentioning something I found out recently, and wondered what will happen with those apps. I assume since they likely won't adhere to the new rules they'll be wiped.
You'd think they'd make sure that investment was well warranted by making sure the software isn't a bag of hurt.
No, BluRay is the bag of hurt.
Adobe is buggy and makes Macs crash if they try to surf the web.
I wouldn't say that it's simply because HTML 5, CSS 3 and JavaScript are so new (and you probably didn’t mean it that way). As a developer, it is very appealing to use a technology like Flash or Silverlight since they will render content and behave exactly the same across the multitude of browsers. Although it would be nice to just use HTML, CSS, JavaScript for building web applications, the idea of making the pages compatible across browsers is appalling. There are even rendering differences between the major web browsers for the new versions (HTML 5 and CSS 3).
This problem will likely be around for quite some time -- until the major web browsers render HTML, apply CSS and execute JavaScript exactly the same. Some of the standards the companies building browsers are trying to support are so complex that it is incredibly hard to have the exact same implementation.
this is a point a lot of people who aren't web developers seem to gloss over.
When I do develop something using flash, the one thing missing from the mix is the cross browser compatibility stuff. A feature is only as great as it's complete support across all major browsers both current and the ones still in use.
Though disclaimer, (which you need around here it seems), this doesn't by any means detract from the great new capabilities of html5.
.
For all you Flashers out there... I am curious-- does mobile Flash support OpenGL ES?
If so, what versions?
What GPUs are supported?
What versions of Android OS are supported?
.
35.29 to be exact.
About the same as IE8, the most used browser. I wonder, do you know that if someone has 35%, another 30, another 20%, the one with 35% is still a majority? It's still more than firefox, or chrome or safari.
Does it matter? It's not supposed to be either one or the other. Flash on mobile won't stop development on whichever native language a mobile phone supports. But, for example, an on-line poker site wants to have a mobile client. Flash would be a great tool to facilitate that, since it would work more or less the same on every phone with a touchpad that supported it. You don't need a beefy processor or state of the art interfaces. Just something that works on most mobile phones.
Yes it matters to me... I am currently working on 2 apps that use OpenGL. There are some decisions to be made because all versions of iPhone OS do not support all (basically, both) versions of OpenGL ES.
I googled to see how Flash proposed to handle this... and the results suggested they didn't, currently, but would in the future.., I didn't want to start an investigation.
i just thought some of Flash experts, posting here, would know!
.
So, if they are the most used tool (tied with ie8) to access the web they aren't a majority?
And you miss the point entirely. Only html5, around 65% can see with no problems. Flash maybe 98%.
Which do you think a company would invest in?
If the company doesn't have their head in the sand and sees how the % of people still limited to IE 6 and 7 is eroding monthly, then why would they restrict themselves to those?
Everytime I read an article and thread like this which seem to dominate this forum lately I start to wonder one thing. What if Apple and Adobe actually put as much energy trying to get a good mobile version of Flash instead of putting all their energy into bashing each other and taking the time to write stupid letters.
With a little effort on the hardware end from Apple and some effort on the optimization end from Adobe this just doesn't seem like a massive issue.
Yes, Flash for OSX is a major CPU hog which impacts Windows users far less, but some of that appears to be resolved in 10.1.
Its really annoying because it seems like both these companies wants to bitch about who is right on this issue rather then working together to fix it. Which in the long run benefits their customers.
do you really think apple put a lot of energy into bashing adobe? i see adobe's staff blog a lot lately, certainly bashinging apple (brimelow?), and flash developers post on forums (understandable, we're talking about their living after all). all i've seen from apple is one open letter by mr. jobs and a couple of remarks by some pr person. did i miss something?
Yes it matters to me... I am currently working on 2 apps that use OpenGL. There are some decisions to be made because all versions of iPhone OS do not support all (basically, both) versions of OpenGL ES.
I googled to see how Flash proposed to handle this... and the results suggested they didn't, currently, but would in the future.., I didn't want to start an investigation.
i just thought some of Flash experts, posting here, would know!
.
I personally don't know very much on the subject of openGL ES, as none of my projects currently would ever use it, but if you google it, you'll find out that player 10.1 will support it. So if a project needs it now, don't consider flash.
But somehow, Perhaps I'm wrong, but I suspect you wouldn't consider flash player for a project anyway.
easy now, I have no information on whether they are good or not, other than they were accepted into tha app store at one point. I was just mentioning something I found out recently, and wondered what will happen with those apps. I assume since they likely won't adhere to the new rules they'll be wiped.
i'm still curious to see a list of those apps...
my point was: we're talking about a minute percentage of the overall number. that's kinda the point of the whole thing: adobe claims that apple's app developers are being hamstrung. in reality the people that are being excluded are NOT iphone developers (the 100 apps notwithstanding), but flash developers that want a shortcut into the app store. different thing.
do you really think apple put a lot of energy into bashing adobe? i see adobe's staff blog a lot lately, certainly bashinging apple (brimelow?), and flash developers post on forums (understandable, we're talking about their living after all). all i've seen from apple is one open letter by mr. jobs and a couple of remarks by some pr person. did i miss something?
I see a lot more people bashing adobe on forums than the other way round, but it's likely about even.
And a cursory knowledge of the platform would inform you that should flash go down, I doubt any of the real developers would be out of a living.
i'm still curious to see a list of those apps...
my point was: we're talking about a minute percentage of the overall number. that's kinda the point of the whole thing: adobe claims that apple's app developers are being hamstrung. in reality the people that are being excluded are NOT iphone developers (the 100 apps notwithstanding), but flash developers that want a shortcut into the app store. different thing.
I haven't seen a list either, I'll have to dig and find out. As far as I know, there are more than just flash developers looking for a shortcut to the app store. The flash packager thing was a relatively "late-comer" to the party of development platforms that exported to iphone. Unity, and phonegap comes to mind.
Personally, it's easier as a developer or a company to develop once, export for all, certainly this makes business sense obviously. But since I don't have an intimate knowledge of the inner workings of the compilers, and the issues surrounding using or not using native Obj-C, it's hard for me to offer any kind of an informed opinion on that beyond unproven theories.