Another EU story. Could a European friend explain why?
I was crusin' over at drudgereport.com (I'm sure a few of you visit there from time to time) and saw this article posed:
<a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/02/07/nfrid07.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/02/07/ixnewstop.html"; target="_blank">EU wrangle adding to fridge mountain</a>
The EU sure has enough its mishaps to keep me chuckling. Anyhow, this really isn't the point of this thread. This story just got me thinking...
What is the goal of the EU? What is the point? Is it just a band of nations promoting their ideals? A stronger economy? An alliance able to become a super power in its own right? How close of ties does the EU plan? A sort of UN style Gov't now with a migration towards a single state?
I'm just wondering if hassle and red tape will eventually cause some nations to leave the EU. Do the benefits out weigh the costs?
Does ever European citizen have a vision of a greater Europe and the EU as the road to get there?
<a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/02/07/nfrid07.xml&sSheet=/news/2002/02/07/ixnewstop.html"; target="_blank">EU wrangle adding to fridge mountain</a>
The EU sure has enough its mishaps to keep me chuckling. Anyhow, this really isn't the point of this thread. This story just got me thinking...
What is the goal of the EU? What is the point? Is it just a band of nations promoting their ideals? A stronger economy? An alliance able to become a super power in its own right? How close of ties does the EU plan? A sort of UN style Gov't now with a migration towards a single state?
I'm just wondering if hassle and red tape will eventually cause some nations to leave the EU. Do the benefits out weigh the costs?
Does ever European citizen have a vision of a greater Europe and the EU as the road to get there?
Comments
I looked up "EU" in the groverat dictionary, its synonyms are "clusterf*ck" and "time bomb".
Things are good now (and let's all pray it remains that way), but many of these nations historically hate each other.
But I wish them the best of luck.
<a href="http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=95001025"; target="_blank">We'll Run
This Planet
As We Please</a>
And if you don't like it, go back where we came from.
BY P.J. O'ROURKE
Saturday, August 25, 2001 12:01 a.m. EDT
[quote]
...
Or is the point of multilateralism simply that America is expected to imitate the elder and better nations of Europe? They, in their wisdom, decided that their continent did not have enough government and needed one more big one. After Hitler, Napoleon and Attila the Hun, the Europeans should know where this leads. Undeterred by historical example, however, the EU looks to fulfill the age-old dream of having a country of English cooks, German lovers, French defense forces and Italian efficiency experts.
...<hr></blockquote>
With this guy , USA will become more and more popular.
<strong>The purpose of the EU is to regain Europe's relevance in the face of the dominant US.
I looked up "EU" in the groverat dictionary, its synonyms are "clusterf*ck" and "time bomb".
Things are good now (and let's all pray it remains that way), but many of these nations historically hate each other.
But I wish them the best of luck.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You really don't know shit about the EU do you. It is so typical for ignorant americans, to state that the nations in the EU historically hate each other and therefore think that we can't cooperate with each other. It would be the same as saying the US is doomed because of the civilwar a centuary ago between the north and the south.
None of the countries in the EU hate each other for things that have only historically meaning. Let me ask you where you find conflicts that will eventually send the EU back to the stoneage?
<strong>I
The EU sure has enough its mishaps to keep me chuckling. Anyhow, this really isn't the point of this thread. This story just got me thinking...
What is the goal of the EU? What is the point? Is it just a band of nations promoting their ideals? A stronger economy? An alliance able to become a super power in its own right? How close of ties does the EU plan? A sort of UN style Gov't now with a migration towards a single state?
I'm just wondering if hassle and red tape will eventually cause some nations to leave the EU. Do the benefits out weigh the costs?
Does ever European citizen have a vision of a greater Europe and the EU as the road to get there?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well i try to answer you , even if i do not got any official answers to offer.
I don't think the goal of Europe is just to promote ideals. Europe is made of several different country who have all a strong culture, different culture means different ideal, some of this ideal are shared by all countries, it's include democraty, liberty ...(not specific or original ideal as you can seen).
One important goal, and the first one in action is to have a stronger economy : that the beginning of EU.
An another important goal is diplomatia, europe have not weight if they don't speak with the same voice, europeans leader has understand this point and tend to speak with the same voice.
The europe of defense is just on the beginning but at a very low level (as you know budget of Bush's US defense equal the defense's budget of all the states of EU). Make a better defense seems logical, especially in case the conflicts are outside.
The goal is not to make one big state, it's quite impossible for the moment, the country are too different especially in the social aspect. But it's stronger also than making only an alliance.
In fact EU try to find his own way, and will be never be structured like USA, (our history are too different, to make a federal state). But EU is a need for future, because France alone has no power , nor germany, spain, italy , and all the others states of the européan union.
<strong>
You really don't know shit about the EU do you. It is so typical for ignorant americans, to state that the nations in the EU historically hate each other and therefore think that we can't cooperate with each other. It would be the same as saying the US is doomed because of the civilwar a centuary ago between the north and the south.
None of the countries in the EU hate each other for things that have only historically meaning. Let me ask you where you find conflicts that will eventually send the EU back to the stoneage?</strong><hr></blockquote>
don't blame groverat, there is not any provocation in what he say (even i don't understand the definitions of his groverat dictionnary : my lack of english).
Nothing arrogant at the contrary of this article,
Scott H, show a section of it : after , Napoleon, Hitler and Attila the un, the europeans should know where this leads. Strange comparison between dictator and a union freely voted by hundred millions of europeans citizens. Futhermore this guy have forgotten to cite Charlemagnes who rules an empire (a popular man; for germans he is german, for french we think he is french : strange at this time there wher not french or german nations, this concept appear later)
I can suffer people like O Rourke in general and their way of acting.
i am a surgeon, do you think when i work with the nurses and other people i show all the time that i a m the boss : no, the other people know that i am the boss, i don't need to show this and i try to be respectefull with them, even if i am the boss they are my equals because they are humans like me. Doesn't this sort of thing is written in the US constitution ?
The same thing should apply for everystate, France has not the right to be arrogant with denmark, because France is bigger, he has got more weight but she must be respectefull and listen what denmark have to say. Of course weight of differents states are different and weight of US is the most important but it's not an excuse for arrogance. There is a huge difference between being proud of your self and to be arrogant.
This economic arrangement suited both countries: Germany ("mitteleuropa") gained from being integrated with the more prosperous post-war West, while France could count on Germany to take a back seat and support its own foreign policy initatives and desires. This is the core of the EU and these ideas have remained in force: Germany the silent giant, France the ideological center of the EU.
It will be interesting to see how the smaller outlying countries in the EU change the flavor of this arrangement. Or how Germany's new foreign policy initatives work. Or how the Mediterraneans -- the Spanish, Italians, Greeks -- assert their views...etc. Very interesting.
<strong>
You really don't know shit about the EU do you. It is so typical for ignorant americans, to state that the nations in the EU historically hate each other and therefore think that we can't cooperate with each other.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Historically that's true. You hate each other so much you invade each others countries and kill 6 million people. That was the last project you all worked together on.
<strong>
Historically that's true. You hate each other so much you invade each others countries and kill 6 million people. That was the last project you all worked together on.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The past is the past, Scott, you have also your big time also even if it was a few time ago ? There is still yankees, but USA is unified, they where slaves in the past (in France too but for less years) but US is a big democratie now.
Time have changed, and europeans people have learned to know each others. I won't see any reasons to fight against my friends from germany or italy, it's just as dumb as to fight my friends from USA.
So if you think it will prevent us to build Europe you make a serious mistake, the post of Timo is much more interesting because , he asked more interesting questions. Timo you seem to study a lot europe don't you ?
<img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />
Reading all europeans have made a unic common project with Hitler extermination plan is horrible for my eyes.
BTW in reaction to the other thread I don't know the taste of a frog and I don't especially want to eat one. And the majority of my friends (99% I'd say) never even eat one in their life.
Some African peoples eat ants. And for this I don't call them ants eaters.
I don't bash on Americans. I felt your pain during the WTC tragedy.
So who is the most extremist ?
I think if the war exists, It is not the fault of Americans nor Europeans nor whatever country in particular. I think war exists bacause some humans, leaders in their own country/region/ethnos group, think the same bad way as you think.
Can I also remind you that Europe as an alliance exists only since ~ 50 years ? Yes "Europeans" have fight for centuries. But the Peoples from the old world have a 4000-years History. If you had such a long time in America how many other Hiroshimas would you have done ? But you don't have much History and one internal war at the beginning for Independance (a good reason IMHO). Moreover, and it is not the less irrelevant, you have one common language. The Babel Tower problem is... a very big problem.
But powerdoc is right : all this belongs to the past. Turn your mind towards the future please. It could look bad or it could look good. It depends on everyone's way of thinking.
So... think different !
PS :
Dis-moi powerdoc, tu manges des grenouilles, toi ?
<strong>Scott H, This is a forum and you can say what you want but there is a point where I can't believe that someone can say the things you write.
<img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />
Reading all europeans have made a unic common project with Hitler extermination plan is horrible for my eyes.
BTW in reaction to the other thread I don't know the taste of a frog and I don't especially want to eat one. And the majority of my friends (99% I'd say) never even eat one in their life.
Some African peoples eat ants. And for this I don't call them ants eaters.
I don't bash on Americans. I felt your pain during the WTC tragedy.
So who is the most extremist ?
I think if the war exists, It is not the fault of Americans nor Europeans nor whatever country in particular. I think war exists bacause some humans, leaders in their own country/region/ethnos group, think the same bad way as you think.
Can I also remind you that Europe as an alliance exists only since ~ 50 years ? Yes "Europeans" have fight for centuries. But the Peoples from the old world have a 4000-years History. If you had such a long time in America how many other Hiroshimas would you have done ? But you don't have much History and one internal war at the beginning for Independance (a good reason IMHO). Moreover, and it is not the less irrelevant, you have one common language. The Babel Tower problem is... a very big problem.
But powerdoc is right : all this belongs to the past. Turn your mind towards the future please. It could look bad or it could look good. It depends on everyone's way of thinking.
So... think different !
PS :
Dis-moi powerdoc, tu manges des grenouilles, toi ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oui j'ai du manger deux fois dans ma vie des cuisses de grenouille : c'est pas mauvais, mais ça ressemble assez Ã* de la friture, j'ai aussi mangé des des coquilles Saint Jacques en friture Ã* San diego : ça devait avoir exactement le même gôut. J'ai mangé aussi des escargots ...Scott H sera ravi. Enfin en anglais pour Scott H : there is a restaurant on the road 66 wich cook dead animals killed in the road, you can have flat cat, squirrel and many other animals ...so some americans are flat cats eater !
I found this interesting.
<a href="http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=95001818"; target="_blank">The Return of Anti-Semitism</a>
All right, my statement that the EU is designed to rival the US is essentially taken from the mouths of European leaders. That's not my personal opinion.
I have a problem with allowing France to be the "ideological" center of a large group of independent nations. It is odd that the EU uses the most nationalistic nation in its group to spearhead its unification.
fuku:
[quote]Let me ask you where you find conflicts that will eventually send the EU back to the stoneage?<hr></blockquote>
I don't know of any right now that hold that much weight, but you can see the French now have very little patience for the UK's support of the US. There's one.
Here's the problem as I see it. You're going to have Frenchmen and Englishmen making laws that affect Germans and Italians. The nations are very different, if you'd take the time to read my post (wherein I say that I wish the EU the very best of luck), I just don't see how it will last.
Don't put words in my mouth.
[edit]
Anti-semitism will be alive and well in Europe for a long long time. These are very insular and xenophobic nations (especially France and England).
[ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
<strong>It's great to see so many foriegn people on the board!
All right, my statement that the EU is designed to rival the US is essentially taken from the mouths of European leaders. That's not my personal opinion.
I have a problem with allowing France to be the "ideological" center of a large group of independent nations. It is odd that the EU uses the most nationalistic nation in its group to spearhead its unification.
fuku:
I don't know of any right now that hold that much weight, but you can see the French now have very little patience for the UK's support of the US. There's one.
Here's the problem as I see it. You're going to have Frenchmen and Englishmen making laws that affect Germans and Italians. The nations are very different, if you'd take the time to read my post (wherein I say that I wish the EU the very best of luck), I just don't see how it will last.
Don't put words in my mouth.
[edit]
Anti-semitism will be alive and well in Europe for a long long time. These are very insular and xenophobic nations (especially France and England).
[ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
First USA hasn't the right to allow or to not allow a nation to be an ideologic leader (by the way i don't see in What the France can be an ideologic leader : i never ear in France a discussion about being an ideological leader)
Second : France is not specially a nationalistic nation, i love french food and culture(but not all , many are boring me, and i can apprecialte many others food or culture also) but being French does not make me feel special. I think US is a more nationalistic nation than France (it's one of his quality).
You say that especially France and England (they should be happy to read this) are very insular and xenophobic nations.
I can reply that : this type of sentance is xenophobic against EU, and that you have your problem in US too with the blacks.
I think the different ideologies of the EU countries may in fact conflict in the future - but in the end they will be tied very closely together by the economic agreements of the union (the euro, the common market etc..) that all ready are in place.
Strangely, it is often predicted here in Denmark that one of the bigger conflicts in the coming years is going to take place in the agricultural sector - farmers has historically been subsidised by the EU as a part of "the deal" between the countries: this it threathened by to major factors: 1. the international free trade movement in the WTO where the EU has to allow foreign competitors (=mainly US) fair conditions. 2. the inclusion in the near future of the farmers in the relatively underdeveloped eastern european in the union will make it too expensive for the 'old' countries in the union.
Have a nice day :-)
[ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: Token ]</p>