Another religious thread!.Questions
Your personal faith is irrelavent to this Q.
Q1.If mankind tommorow had undeniable proof that there is no God/figurehead, that EVERYONE accepted to be true, we have some scenarios.
1) Mankind puts aside all their differences, accepts that there is only a limited reason for their existance, and the world pulls together to make the best possible for everyone for the short time we exist.
2) Structure and discipline completely breaks down, society falls apart through lack of guidance. Impending doom lingures.
Q2. Your God /figurehead appears tomorrow. Tells a few hundred thousand that they have led their lives in accordance with the code, and they will be saved. You are not on the list. Your punishment is that you get to stay on Earth exactly as it is now. What happens?
Q1.If mankind tommorow had undeniable proof that there is no God/figurehead, that EVERYONE accepted to be true, we have some scenarios.
1) Mankind puts aside all their differences, accepts that there is only a limited reason for their existance, and the world pulls together to make the best possible for everyone for the short time we exist.
2) Structure and discipline completely breaks down, society falls apart through lack of guidance. Impending doom lingures.
Q2. Your God /figurehead appears tomorrow. Tells a few hundred thousand that they have led their lives in accordance with the code, and they will be saved. You are not on the list. Your punishment is that you get to stay on Earth exactly as it is now. What happens?
Comments
Add to that the morons here in Chicago that worship at Virgin Mary discolored planes of glass in peoples' homes.
Your question is moot with people like this in the world.
[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>
1.You may say I'm a dreamer, but my answer is scenario one. (Sorry, I've been cracking BAD jokes all day.)
Actually, I think it would be survival of the fittest.
2. I'm an atheist, see Q. 1
Jeff
Christ was a Jew. He was a rabbi . . .in the sense that he was a teacher and man of wisdom.
What Islam does with its heritage is different than what the other two monotheism of the book do, and they think different things about Jesus . . . Muslims take him as a prophet in a long line of prophets which ends with the final and ultimate prophet Muhammed . . . many Jews think of Christ as a rabbi, in that he said wise things . . many see his name throughout history and see him repeatedly used for anti-semitic pogroms and slaughters of their brethren.
Mainly though the three monotheism see God as a historical force: that the ways that history unfolds are part of gods work: hence they are religions of prophets: fortelling and saying words inspired by God.
Buddhism and Hinduism are not really concerned with history because they see the situation on a vast cosmological scale where humans are tiny nothings . . . . when physicists talk about an expanding and contracting universe, this is talked about allready in Hinduism which describes as much and uses time scales (yugas)of multiples of eons and eons. (though some physicists now have 'proof' that the universe will not have enough energy to contract and will expand till there is nothing at all)
There is a saying in Buddhism:
Disciple: "When will I attain enlightenment master?"
Buddha: "Do you see that stone mountain"
Disciple: "Yes"
Buddha: "Every fifty thousand years a sparrow flies by that mountain and brushes it once with its wing . . .when that sparrow has worn the mountain down to flattness you shall attain enlightenmnent"
[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
<strong>Allah is the same god.... Islam is a "religion of the Book". Meaning that it grows from the Hebrew bible . . . as does Christianity.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Somehow, I've managed to collect a number of Christian friends, and the way the relationship between the Christian, Jewish, and Islamic gods was explained to me is that they both are and aren't the same. (Someone feel free to thump me if I screw this up.)
As it was explained to me, Christians believe that God is made up of the holy trinity: the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost. Christianity, Jewism, and Islam share a belief in "the Father," but Christianity is unique in that it is the only religion of the three to believe that Jesus is both the son of and a part of God. Jewism and Islam both believe Jesus was a man and a prophet, and so the God they believe in is not quite the same as the Christian God of the Holy Trinity.
[quote]<strong>
There is a saying in Buddhism:
Disciple: "When will I attain enlightenment master?"
Buddha: "Do you see that stone mountain"
Disciple: "Yes"
Buddha: "Every fifty thousand years a sparrow flies by that mountain and brushes it once with its wing . . .when that sparrow has worn the mountain down to flattness you shall attain enlightenmnent"
</strong><hr></blockquote>
My Christian friends use a similar analogy when explaining "eternity." (Though, why they feel the need to use an analogy is beyond me. Personally, I think "forever," is a pretty good explaination of what "eternity means...)
Not all christians believe in the trinity. Mainly catholics and other denominations. Many believe that God and the holy spirit are one but Jesus is another entity entirely. There is so much confusion in christianity it's hard to make a general statement about the ideology as a whole. It's one of the reasons I have rejected all but the most basic principles.
I think that I'll go with scenario 3: the majority of people dismiss the undeniable truth and continue to believe. Religion is not based on proof, but on faith...proof and facts will not sway anyone.
That said, I'm an atheist so I don't suppose it'd bother me (neither would Q2) !
rr.
example: Volcano explodes = fire god
Religion = A way to explain ourselves.
example:You do something bad and you go to a place where you burn to death forever?
Prove there's a Hell and maybe I'll believe in a bearded fool in the sky... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong>Don't worry there is no hell. There is no place big enough to hold all the people who would be there... (remember when Kenny went to heaven then hell? notice the population meter?
Right, too many butt ****ing priests already there...
If a "supreme being" appeared to us all Hell would break loose. Get the premise? If you contemplate a scenario where the "Good Guy" appears you have to mention what if the "Bad Guy" appears too!
Stupid. When will we understand that neither are there and we do have the capability do all the miracles ourselves?
Why sit and wait?
<a href="http://www.hell.com"; target="_blank">Hell.</a>
Go figger...
Philosophy would shoot that down because without any grounding, you have no clue as to what is right and what is wrong. If there is no god, and you will receive no punishment for anything that you do wrong, how would you know that stealing is bad and love is good? That's a highly oversimplified statement, but it gets my point across.
If it was unequivvicably (sp?) proven that there is no god, society would slowly destroy itself. Why would we want to be nice to each other, follow laws, etc.? There is no ultimate reason to. Everyone would eventually take the attitude of, "Well, I might as well enjoy myself while I'm alive, because I'll have/be nothing when I die."
Humans are inherently evil, selfish, animalistic beings that only act moral and just because of another overwhelming, outside factor. Not because it's the *right* thing to do. You may call yourself an atheist, but there's a reason you have the "morals" you have. It's not 'just because.'
How about this...a general subconscious realization among all human beings that they kinda like being alive. I wouldn't like to have my life ended. To safeguard my own existence, I am willing to give up my right to kill other people. Morality can be easily forged through a series of tradeoffs like the one above.
Murder or other "wrong" acts are not inherently bad in a godless world. They have been designated as destructive to civilization and are punished by society accordingly.
rr.
<strong>A beleif in God is what made civilization what it is today.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't mean to nitpick, but shouldn't that be "gods", small "g"?
"Civilization" is what it is today because of those that went before it - the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Mayans, and the pagans who happily worshipped a weird and wonderful assortment of "gods" long before someone invented Jesus Christ and "one almighty God".
That's what I meant.
And do you really think someone invented Jesus Christ? Even some athiest historians concede that Jesus was a real person (obviouse they don't believe he was the son of a super-natural God).
<strong>Humans are inherently evil, selfish, animalistic beings that only act moral and just because of another overwhelming, outside factor. Not because it's the *right* thing to do. You may call yourself an atheist, but there's a reason you have the "morals" you have. It's not 'just because.'</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmmm...sounds like you've worked for a couple of my bosses.
I wouldn't go that far. I think humans are self-interested by nature, which I think is an important distinction. A self-interested person is able to work with others to further a common interest (e.g., the continuance of a civilized society) that in turn furthers his or her own personal interests. A truly selfish person would not be willing to further a common interest--even one that benefits them--over their own personal interests.
Also, yeah, "morals" don't just spontaneously generate themselves, but it doesn't mean that they can only come from devotion to a single religion. Influences can come from all religions, as well as philosophy, science, poetry, and one's own life experiences.
<strong>And do you really think someone invented Jesus Christ? Even some athiest historians concede that Jesus was a real person (obviouse they don't believe he was the son of a super-natural God).</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm one of these annoying people who is utterly grounded in science and has absolutely no belief in anything that cannot be proven. I don't need a mathematical proof for most things, but some kind of grounding in reality helps.
If someone can show me some contemporary evidence that this Jesus guy ever existed, then I could perhaps be persuaded.
and men were like unto beasts
they were chaotic and lawless.
Then, the Thunder made them afraid.
they saw that thunder was like a mad father and they said there is God and all nature is animated with God, and he can be angry and roar.
Some of the men were bigger and stronger than the others: they liked the women and the food, and liked the others to get these things for them.
They said that the Thunder demanded that things work accordingly, or the Thunder would roar.
what was called 'according' slowly changed from outright slavery to practical means of providing for the strong by maintaining the weak through rules.
These rules were first organized by the mediated rule of the 'thunder' as told to the weak by the strong: in other words, the strong told the weak what Thunder meant: the strong became the priests.
The priests managed to get taken care of without doing physical work but by making sure the thunder was happy. If the weather was bad it was not the strong people's fault, no, they blamed the weak: the weak were guilty, it was the strong men's role to tell them that.
They did not live according to the 'rules' set by the Thunder as told to them by the strong, so the weather went foul and people went hungry -so the strong said to their 'people'.
The Thunder was also the voice of the saddness of life: it took everything from the poor in the form of passing time (all things fade and leave): and in its place the thunder said: if you live by the codes then the strong will look kindly upon you: over time this changed to: if you live by the codes all that was taken will be made whole: it presupposed that the poor hate this world of fading things: in fact the more they hated it the more they were promised a reward. Trembling and self denial became marks of how good a person was: and how good they were was how well they lived by the codes.
Soon, even the strong forgot that the rules were established for their benefit.
they no longer understood that what they called 'morality' was the solidified codes of conduct established in order to best satisfy them by keeping the weak working and afraid of the Thunder.
But because the codes were hidden they worked: if it were known that the codes were born out of fear, power and the hatred of passing time all centered around the figure behind the Thunder: then they would have to make up there own meanings and descriptions of conduct and values.
But, by the time the people began to see that this might be true, they had allready established a civilization and moral code founded on the denial of this world and fear, they did not know how to make an action valuable in itself>
And this they called Nihilism.
And low the many people thought that Nihilism was despair. Despair, because they didn't know how to hear the Thunder as it used to be heard and didn't know how to live:
and low others felt elated because nothing was true anymore: therefor everything was permitted: if they had the creativity to make.
Anyway..
[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>