Apple: If you're trying to prove that HTML5 is ready to replace Flash, you don't advertise your HTML5 demo and immediately tell me my browser, nor any other besides your Safari, will not work with it. You just shot yourself in the foot.
I'm with Adobe on this one; before this silly Demo fiasco , I wasn't! I had no idea how unimplemented the standard was.
Geez again, why do people continue to make this already answered, already thwarted point..
They are demoing the FUTURE of ALL the aspects HTML5 can bring. The point is to try and get all the developers and then of course all the other browser platforms on board. If they all had it it wouldn't be the future, nor would there be a point of a DEMO.
If you opened up chrome and the demo worked perfectly fine, it would then be pointless cause you already have everything they are trying to demo.
Did anyone else not notice from the heading "Developers: Learn how to do it yourself" that this demo is for.. I dunno.. Developers, and not consumers who happen to be browsing at that moment. Clearly anyone who develops websites would already have every major browser already so they can test their site's compatability and would never see that error message.
Please, for anyone else who's thinking about making this arguement woul you please just say it over in your head a few times first until you realize what your actually saying?? "Geez, you'd think if they wanted to show people all these great features of HTML5 that firefox, chrome, and opera don't fully support yet, you'd think they would at least make it work on firefox, chrome, and opera!!"
Well they went from 90 to 60. IE9 better end up really good. A "Vista type" publicity debacle will really put the hurt on them.
Everything I've seen is promising for IE9. Unfortunately, it's Mozilla and Opera that seem to be dropping the ball as of late. Mozilla especially, since they still can't get Firefox Mobile on Android, which I think it very important for the future of their business.
Note: On Windows I use IE8 as my browser. I do not care for the look or feel or Firefox, and don't use extensions. Granted, I also use Chrome Frame set to always to give it WebKit+V8 engines, but I find I prefer the integrated browsers over 3rd-party ones. Plus, according to AnandTech the included browsers for Mac and Windows offer you the best usable time when using the battery on your notebook.
Apple: If you're trying to prove that HTML5 is ready to replace Flash, you don't advertise your HTML5 demo and immediately tell me my browser, nor any other besides your Safari, will not work with it. You just shot yourself in the foot.
I'm with Adobe on this one; before this silly Demo fiasco , I wasn't! I had no idea how unimplemented the standard was.
What's there to be with? Adobe Flash vapor? Adobe Flash on mobile is still beta, and crashes, and significantly slows down the few devices it's able to run on today.
By the way, when Apple introduced 3.5" floppy disks, it didn't work on anything else either. A few years later, it was being used on all PCs one could buy.
The situation isn't that balck and white. Yes IE is the dominant desktop browser. But that doesn't mean a much when you dominate old technology. There are countless examples of companies who've tried to cling to the past and are no longer with us today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevetim
Browser market share is browser market share. The dynamics of windows domination has in fact stifled web technology advancement.
Why bother making pro apps when 80% of PC users have $300 Dell/HP machines? Why bother offering better quality audio codecs when the majority can't tell the difference? Why bother implementing proper standards based tech when most people don't care? Why bother offering better cooked food when so many people think McDonalds is fine. And so on.
What's there to be with? Adobe Flash vapor? Adobe Flash on mobile is still beta, and crashes, and significantly slows down the few devices it's able to run on today.
One of the many things that Flash does well is hide the source code. When Google financial application converts to html5 you'll know its time has come. Imagine if that Google code was scrapable, every 2 bit stock picker site would have something similar.
Google does do a pretty nice job of obfuscating their js though. Near impossible to read.
I noticed for the iTunes sample demo they use s_objectID for audio. I checked the latest WebKit nightlies and they still don't support any of the audio tag codecs besides WAV. I didn't expect them to use it for the official Safari 4 HTML5 demo or use WAV, but I thought by now AAC and MP3 would be supported, thought not OGG. That is what is supported on the iPhone's Safari.
Just for the record, they all work for me using OmniWeb 5, except for the VR demo.
Personally I don't get the moaning? Most of us are Mac users; hopefully most of us don't use the god awful alternatives out there for the Mac. Most web dev's have Safari, actually most people who 'have a enthusiasm' about computer's would have Safari somewhere on there machine (Mac or PC) or they wouldn't mind downloading it for the sake of having a look. Do you really think 'normal people' will want to see the 'latest in HTML5 tech'?
People like Elen Fiess have there porn and homework to deal with. Apple slammed it up there for us, the demo's are good and they show the future, MS did that (nobody complained it wasn't for Mac) and it was quite good... even though it was just a 'media centre' esque web browser/picture viewer and had nothing to do with the outcome of Vista.
One of the many things that Flash does well is hide the source code. When Google financial application converts to html5 you'll know its time has come. Imagine if that Google code was scrapable, every 2 bit stock picker site would have something similar.
Google does do a pretty nice job of obfuscating their js though. Near impossible to read.
When Google does flip from Flash on their Finance page here is an example of how they might do it using JS.
New technology isn't implemented from waiting for the majority of users to catch up. If you waiting for them nothing would ever change. The majority of Windows users will use an old outdated computer until they are forced to buy a new one. If the industry sat around and waited for that we would still be using floppy disks, parallel ports, dot matrix printers, and green CRT monitors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevetim
I agree totally with this. My main point of discussion is html5 is not yet a technology that many developers will embrace on desktops until windows users get on board with machines with html5 compatible browsers installed. A majority of windows users have no ability to view html5 today. I agree that the number is moving rapidly in favor of html5. I also think html5 is the future, but question is when? I believe it can happen as early as next spring (more likely it will be about a year after that). IE9 will probably be launched by then ... I also believe microsoft will not just float ie 9 out there. I think they will spend big bucks on advertising it. It is a big deal upgrade for them.
New technology isn't implemented from waiting for the majority of users to catch up. If you waiting for them nothing would ever change. The majority of Windows users will use an old outdated computer until they are forced to buy a new one. If the industry sat around and waited for that we would still be using floppy disks, parallel ports, dot matrix printers, and green CRT monitors.
Look people. There are parts of the HTML5 spec that only Safari currently supports. Both Firefox and Chrome are behind, hence the requirement for Safari.
THe Chrome & Firefox developers should speed up their implementation of the draft spec as it currently stands.
As a side note, if you visit http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/ you can view the demos in other browsers. Some of the functionality won't be there, but they'll work for the most part.
Thanks for the link.
In many way it isn't so much that they are behind, and more that there are still points where the implementations differ slightly. Also, at this point CSS3 is mainly active via the "proprietary browser prefixes", such as "-webkit-", "-moz-", "-o-", etc.
Also, Google Chrome is using the same rendering engine as Safari, so they results should be 98% identical - it all depends which revision of WebKit each is using. The only place they seem to differ is in the Javascript engine being used.
Edit: Many do work in non-Safari browser, such in Firefox, but some like the Tron example suffer because of the H264 video not being supported by all browsers. At the same time it would be nice if Apple didn't specifically check for Safari. I got some of them working in other browsers with user-agent spoofing.
New technology isn't implemented from waiting for the majority of users to catch up. If you waiting for them nothing would ever change. The majority of Windows users will use an old outdated computer until they are forced to buy a new one. If the industry sat around and waited for that we would still be using floppy disks, parallel ports, dot matrix printers, and green CRT monitors.
Anyone reasonable will agree with this. But there is the added dimension of what companies are willing to spend to design websites. You do something cool in html5 for the boss of the company and then a customer of his calls and says the website don't work because the moron is still running XP with IE6. Then the boss chews out the developer and the developer said he warned the boss but the boss was to stupid to understand the technology problems.
This is real world ... this is why microsoft and IE have stifled the technology enhancements on the web.
Apple has to be stopped from trying to tell you how you are supposed to consume the internet. Why Jobs wants to make Apple into a new Microsoft - would it be called Applesoft ?
Anyone reasonable will agree with this. But there is the added dimension of what companies are willing to spend to design websites. You do something cool in html5 for the boss of the company and then a customer of his calls and says the website don't work because the moron is still running XP with IE6. Then the boss chews out the developer and the developer said he warned the boss but the boss was to stupid to understand the technology problems.
This is real world ... this is why microsoft and IE have stifled the technology enhancements on the web.
Thats the beauty of designing technology Creating something that is amazing and complex, but all the end users feels is the amazing.. no one said it was easy!!
Apple has to be stopped from trying to tell you how you are supposed to consume the internet. Why Jobs wants to make Apple into a new Microsoft - would it be called Applesoft ?
I see sf_dude has been hanging out over at flashtalkingpoints.com
Apple has to be stopped from trying to tell you how you are supposed to consume the internet. Why Jobs wants to make Apple into a new Microsoft - would it be called Applesoft ?
How is he telling anyone how to consome internet?? This doesn't even have anything to do with consuming internet, it's about building internet.
Apart from us tech savy people, 95% of people using the internet have no idea what any of this means and nor do they care.. they just want to enjoy the internet.
All Job's is saying is that in His company's opinion this will create the best product, this is what his company will be using, and he is using this demo to encourange and convince others of the same thing.
It has to be said that although there is a bit of debate on when that future will come, it is fairly unanimous amongst developers and software/computer companies that HTML5 is the future. Adobe is the only one who disagrees, although in retrospect their opinion is a little bias since they own the past
Apple this week posted a new section on its website, showing off the abilities of HTML5 in a standards based browser such as Safari, including interactive videos and photos.
That says it all...
People here seem upset with Apple because other browsers don't support these standards yet. Is that not idiotic or what?
Comments
Apple: If you're trying to prove that HTML5 is ready to replace Flash, you don't advertise your HTML5 demo and immediately tell me my browser, nor any other besides your Safari, will not work with it. You just shot yourself in the foot.
I'm with Adobe on this one; before this silly Demo fiasco , I wasn't! I had no idea how unimplemented the standard was.
Geez again, why do people continue to make this already answered, already thwarted point..
They are demoing the FUTURE of ALL the aspects HTML5 can bring. The point is to try and get all the developers and then of course all the other browser platforms on board. If they all had it it wouldn't be the future, nor would there be a point of a DEMO.
If you opened up chrome and the demo worked perfectly fine, it would then be pointless cause you already have everything they are trying to demo.
Did anyone else not notice from the heading "Developers: Learn how to do it yourself" that this demo is for.. I dunno.. Developers, and not consumers who happen to be browsing at that moment. Clearly anyone who develops websites would already have every major browser already so they can test their site's compatability and would never see that error message.
Please, for anyone else who's thinking about making this arguement woul you please just say it over in your head a few times first until you realize what your actually saying?? "Geez, you'd think if they wanted to show people all these great features of HTML5 that firefox, chrome, and opera don't fully support yet, you'd think they would at least make it work on firefox, chrome, and opera!!"
Well they went from 90 to 60. IE9 better end up really good. A "Vista type" publicity debacle will really put the hurt on them.
Everything I've seen is promising for IE9. Unfortunately, it's Mozilla and Opera that seem to be dropping the ball as of late. Mozilla especially, since they still can't get Firefox Mobile on Android, which I think it very important for the future of their business.
Note: On Windows I use IE8 as my browser. I do not care for the look or feel or Firefox, and don't use extensions. Granted, I also use Chrome Frame set to always to give it WebKit+V8 engines, but I find I prefer the integrated browsers over 3rd-party ones. Plus, according to AnandTech the included browsers for Mac and Windows offer you the best usable time when using the battery on your notebook.
Apple: If you're trying to prove that HTML5 is ready to replace Flash, you don't advertise your HTML5 demo and immediately tell me my browser, nor any other besides your Safari, will not work with it. You just shot yourself in the foot.
I'm with Adobe on this one; before this silly Demo fiasco , I wasn't! I had no idea how unimplemented the standard was.
What's there to be with? Adobe Flash vapor? Adobe Flash on mobile is still beta, and crashes, and significantly slows down the few devices it's able to run on today.
By the way, when Apple introduced 3.5" floppy disks, it didn't work on anything else either. A few years later, it was being used on all PCs one could buy.
Browser market share is browser market share. The dynamics of windows domination has in fact stifled web technology advancement.
Why bother making pro apps when 80% of PC users have $300 Dell/HP machines? Why bother offering better quality audio codecs when the majority can't tell the difference? Why bother implementing proper standards based tech when most people don't care? Why bother offering better cooked food when so many people think McDonalds is fine. And so on.
Because not everyone wants Mcrappy.
What's there to be with? Adobe Flash vapor? Adobe Flash on mobile is still beta, and crashes, and significantly slows down the few devices it's able to run on today.
One of the many things that Flash does well is hide the source code. When Google financial application converts to html5 you'll know its time has come. Imagine if that Google code was scrapable, every 2 bit stock picker site would have something similar.
Google does do a pretty nice job of obfuscating their js though. Near impossible to read.
<a class="audio-gallery movieLink controller active" href="#" onclick="s_objectID="http://a1.phobos.apple.com/*.aac.p.m4a_1";return this.s_oc?this.s_oc(e):true" style="visibility: hidden; ">Play</a>
Test » http://www.findmebyip.com/#target-selector
Just for the record, they all work for me using OmniWeb 5, except for the VR demo.
Personally I don't get the moaning? Most of us are Mac users; hopefully most of us don't use the god awful alternatives out there for the Mac. Most web dev's have Safari, actually most people who 'have a enthusiasm' about computer's would have Safari somewhere on there machine (Mac or PC) or they wouldn't mind downloading it for the sake of having a look. Do you really think 'normal people' will want to see the 'latest in HTML5 tech'?
People like Elen Fiess have there porn and homework to deal with. Apple slammed it up there for us, the demo's are good and they show the future, MS did that (nobody complained it wasn't for Mac) and it was quite good... even though it was just a 'media centre' esque web browser/picture viewer and had nothing to do with the outcome of Vista.
One of the many things that Flash does well is hide the source code. When Google financial application converts to html5 you'll know its time has come. Imagine if that Google code was scrapable, every 2 bit stock picker site would have something similar.
Google does do a pretty nice job of obfuscating their js though. Near impossible to read.
When Google does flip from Flash on their Finance page here is an example of how they might do it using JS.
I agree totally with this. My main point of discussion is html5 is not yet a technology that many developers will embrace on desktops until windows users get on board with machines with html5 compatible browsers installed. A majority of windows users have no ability to view html5 today. I agree that the number is moving rapidly in favor of html5. I also think html5 is the future, but question is when? I believe it can happen as early as next spring (more likely it will be about a year after that). IE9 will probably be launched by then ... I also believe microsoft will not just float ie 9 out there. I think they will spend big bucks on advertising it. It is a big deal upgrade for them.
If the industry sat around and waited for that we would still be using floppy disks, parallel ports, dot matrix printers, and green CRT monitors.
We would have never had those either, or any computing device, if we only followed the technology status quo of our ancestors.
New technology isn't implemented from waiting for the majority of users to catch up. If you waiting for them nothing would ever change. The majority of Windows users will use an old outdated computer until they are forced to buy a new one. If the industry sat around and waited for that we would still be using floppy disks, parallel ports, dot matrix printers, and green CRT monitors.
couldn't have said it better myself man. Exactly.
Look people. There are parts of the HTML5 spec that only Safari currently supports. Both Firefox and Chrome are behind, hence the requirement for Safari.
THe Chrome & Firefox developers should speed up their implementation of the draft spec as it currently stands.
As a side note, if you visit http://developer.apple.com/safaridemos/ you can view the demos in other browsers. Some of the functionality won't be there, but they'll work for the most part.
Thanks for the link.
In many way it isn't so much that they are behind, and more that there are still points where the implementations differ slightly. Also, at this point CSS3 is mainly active via the "proprietary browser prefixes", such as "-webkit-", "-moz-", "-o-", etc.
Also, Google Chrome is using the same rendering engine as Safari, so they results should be 98% identical - it all depends which revision of WebKit each is using. The only place they seem to differ is in the Javascript engine being used.
Edit: Many do work in non-Safari browser, such in Firefox, but some like the Tron example suffer because of the H264 video not being supported by all browsers. At the same time it would be nice if Apple didn't specifically check for Safari. I got some of them working in other browsers with user-agent spoofing.
New technology isn't implemented from waiting for the majority of users to catch up. If you waiting for them nothing would ever change. The majority of Windows users will use an old outdated computer until they are forced to buy a new one. If the industry sat around and waited for that we would still be using floppy disks, parallel ports, dot matrix printers, and green CRT monitors.
Anyone reasonable will agree with this. But there is the added dimension of what companies are willing to spend to design websites. You do something cool in html5 for the boss of the company and then a customer of his calls and says the website don't work because the moron is still running XP with IE6. Then the boss chews out the developer and the developer said he warned the boss but the boss was to stupid to understand the technology problems.
This is real world ... this is why microsoft and IE have stifled the technology enhancements on the web.
Anyone reasonable will agree with this. But there is the added dimension of what companies are willing to spend to design websites. You do something cool in html5 for the boss of the company and then a customer of his calls and says the website don't work because the moron is still running XP with IE6. Then the boss chews out the developer and the developer said he warned the boss but the boss was to stupid to understand the technology problems.
This is real world ... this is why microsoft and IE have stifled the technology enhancements on the web.
Thats the beauty of designing technology
Apple has to be stopped from trying to tell you how you are supposed to consume the internet. Why Jobs wants to make Apple into a new Microsoft - would it be called Applesoft ?
I see sf_dude has been hanging out over at flashtalkingpoints.com
Back off, you idiot. Since when does Apple pander to whiners like you? This is simply one of the first steps in the transition away from Flash.
DanielSW...
While I agree with all the points you bring up, slinging insults does NOT further your cause or inspire people to listen and/or take you seriously.
Apple has to be stopped from trying to tell you how you are supposed to consume the internet. Why Jobs wants to make Apple into a new Microsoft - would it be called Applesoft ?
How is he telling anyone how to consome internet?? This doesn't even have anything to do with consuming internet, it's about building internet.
Apart from us tech savy people, 95% of people using the internet have no idea what any of this means and nor do they care.. they just want to enjoy the internet.
All Job's is saying is that in His company's opinion this will create the best product, this is what his company will be using, and he is using this demo to encourange and convince others of the same thing.
It has to be said that although there is a bit of debate on when that future will come, it is fairly unanimous amongst developers and software/computer companies that HTML5 is the future. Adobe is the only one who disagrees, although in retrospect their opinion is a little bias since they own the past
That says it all...
People here seem upset with Apple because other browsers don't support these standards yet. Is that not idiotic or what?