In a nutshell, the FCC doesn't test the phones by actually holding them up to someone's head and making calls, they test the phone flat with nothing touching it. Now this doesn't let Apple off the hook for the design, but it does explain why its easy to block the antenna, and why is it there in the first place. Take a look.
Sure he does ... it's called "Class Action lawsuit". If you continue to sell a product, after being made aware of a design defect - you are committing fraud. In fact, each and every phone Apple sells further increases the damages that will be accessed.
Thus, it is in Apple's best interests to fix this problem post haste.
That would be a funny. Apple is starting to feel the pain of being a large company, hard to hide in the shadows when you have grown this big this fast.
Signal bars are relative. Do you think a phone with 5 bars, 1 mile from a cell tower, will have the same signal strength as a phone with 5 bars, 100 ft from a tower?
If a phone is close enough to a tower, an antenna's poor performance becomes less of an issue.
Now who's the one that doesn't have a clue?
I'm not trying to defend Steve Jobs or Apple. I'm just trying to point out why it's not happening to all phones. I do think there is a fundamental flaw with the phone.
I think the issue is made worse due to the signal being GSM and 3G. I've had issues in the past with GSM, back all the way since AT&T left TDMA and went GSM. It didn't matter what phone I had: Sony Ericcson, Nokia, Palm (ugh), and Motorola. They all had issues with signal loss. Worse than TDMA.
The only place where my phone worked beautifully was in Seattle, and that's because the original AT&T headquarters was there.
I still have the original iPhone and it's ok as far as signal goes, but compared to my girlfriends 3G, mine is better in receiving calls unless she drops the 3G and goes 2G. My brother who uses a BB, also has issues with 3G. His phone sounds like he's underwater, and replacing it hasn't done much to the call quality.
Now Apple has done some further changes to the new iPhone in the way it connects to the network, according to what they told Walt Mossberg. I think that this new way, coupled with the antenna design, and AT&T being what it is, makes this issue amplified. The other thing to consider is how long was this phone being tested and where. Where, being more important.
It's going to be a challenge to fix this issue, but it still won't make me go Android or BB.
I dont get it either, are we the only people on the planet without this problem...you'd think it was everyone, but I can hold my phone the "wrong way" and see no bar drop off...
Ditto, no change for me regardless of how I hold the phone. I have four bars to start with, but others posting here say they see a drop "from five to zero" bars.
I'm also failing to see how this is a conspiracy against left-handed people. Whether I hold the phone in my right or left hand, my fingers end up wrapping around and "connecting" all three parts of the outer case anyway. This would make more sense if the claim is that the hand blocks the antenna signal, because in that case I have more "meat" on the left side than on the right side. But I don't see how this can be a conductivity problem. Not on my phone, anyway. I watched a YouTube video where the guy was really gripping it tight, cupping his palm all the way around the left side, so I could imagine that's a blocking rather than a conductivity problem.
Anyway, does this phone use the headphone cable as an extension of the antenna as other phones do? I wonder if anyone who sees the problem on their phone has tried with headphones attached?
The term quite nice compared to what I'd likely say in person to someone jumping to erroneous conclusions and running around claiming imminent doom based on anecdotal evidence or other very, very limited data.
There is no evidence to support a HUGE problem. There is proof that people have held their iPhones in a certain way and the bars dropped. There is also proof this has occurred with previous iPhones and other cellphones.
Now you have Ireland and SpotOn making it their mission in life to talk people out of buying new iPhones because have experienced an issue. They are saying it's a design flaw affecting all phones. You don't think that's an acorn falling being touted as the apocalypse?
The only HUGE problem we've seen so far ?and has always and will always affect every product ever made ? is if your device doesn't work as expected you are an unsatisfied customer. If my iPhone 4 would lose bars and drop calls from holding it in my left hand (the hand I hold it in) I would take it to Apple to get a new one. It's really that simple. To expect there will be no production issues with mass-produced CE is simply unrealistic and ignorant.
PS: Apple engineers say it's better to lose iPhone bars than to lose an iPhone in bars.
You seem to be lumping all of your opponents into a single category. Sure, some people who disagree with you are doing so in an ill-informed or trollish manner. But that doesn't mean that you can write everyone off with a single brush stroke. In fact, you've rudely and incorrectly characterized my point, and then proceeded to rail against that incorrect characterization.
With no empirical data to consider, all any of have to go on are the anecdotes we've personally observed or seen on the internet. Certainly, there is always a tendency for problems to be over-represented in the news and on forums. So at what point is it reasonable to make a claim that a problem is significant? That is a sincere question. Seriously, what would it take for you to say this is a significant problem?
I just got my hands on one a few minutes ago. Girl in the office pre ordered one. I tested the antenna issue and here is my experience.
If I hold it normally with the left palm touching the area of concern it dropped from 5 bars to 4 after about 10-15 seconds. I was holding it gently not pressing hard into my palm. However if I pressed my thumb quite firmly across the seam it would drop the bars down to 2. I found that with normal use where you touch the sensitive location somewhat off and on during a call you should be ok, but if you are applying a lot of pressure as to make full skin contact for a sustained length of time you may affect the reception.
With no empirical data to consider, all any of have to go on are the anecdotes we've personally observed or seen on the internet. Certainly, there is always a tendency for problems to be over-represented in the news and on forums. So at what point is it reasonable to make a claim that a problem is significant? That is a sincere question. Seriously, what would it take for you to say this is a significant problem?
If Steve said it then he couldn't deny it. Steve isn't saying it, 'cause he knows there's an army there for him.
This is turning into a very ugly product introduction and it really exposes a fundamental flaw at Apple concerning real-world testing... they simply don't know how to do it!
I think they know HOW to do it, but I think they don't do enough real-world testing because they have become so ridiculously paranoid about new models being leaked.
A phone that sells 600,000 in its first day and presumably 10,000,000 in a year should probably have been tested by at least 1000 people. I'd bet Apple didn't test the phone with 100 people.
I love Apple but their arrogance is going to turn the perception of Apple from something unique into "just another typical cruddy manufacturer" in the long term.
As for this particular problem, assuming it's real, if Apple had been aware of the problem, it seems to me it could have been easily solved by placing the breaks in the antenna either at the very top or the very bottom of the phone. But they probably weren't aware of the problem because they didn't do enough testing.
And, I'm right handed, but I hold the phone in my left hand because I type with my right, except when I'm on a call, when I hold the phone in my right hand. I don't know if this is typical for right-handed people or not. From the videos I've seen, I'm not sure why the hand you hold the phone in should make any difference. Isn't the antenna break on both sides of the phone in the same location? So whether you hold it left- or right-handed, isn't it likely for the edge of one's palm to cover that spot?
So if you buy his explanation, then why do think he isn't relevant?
I do buy his explanation about internal antenna placement and attenuation when occluded. He alludes that every phone suffers what the iPhone 4 does which is false.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerofTruth
He pretty much sums up what's going on, why it's going on, and why nobody has done anything different.
Except that halfway through his article he starts to change his tune, he even says that it was a design decision by Apple and could not be fixed, which is a nice way of saying it has a design flaw. Yes it is a design flaw because they chose a thinner enclose that forbade an internal (non touchable) antenna.
So after equating other phones that lose a few bars when their antennas are occluded to the iPhone which goes out of service if simply touched in the wrong spot he goes on to link to a youtube video. This video shows an iPhone losing service by placing the iPhone 4 on it's side and laying a key across the antenna gap. That is plain bs, where is a SINGLE video of ANY OTHER PHONE completely going from full strength to no signal by laying a key on it. All it takes is one, just one and then he can say that all phones are affected this way.
So yes I do buy his explanation of antenna attenuation by hand occlusion in all phones, but I flatly refuse to believe that all phone are affected the way the iPhone 4 is by holding it, touching it or laying a key on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerofTruth
Plus by the end of the article, after all he says about the design of the new iPhone and how it could affect the signal, he says he's buying one!
Yeah that made me wonder about his motivations in the whole thing. First he tries to muddy the water by saying all phones do that, then he claims he is going to buy one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HammerofTruth
If you don't like the explanation, then don't buy one. If you already did and are unsatisfied, take it back and get a refund and buy what you think will get better reception.
I don't like the explanation either, but i'm not going to shoot the messenger.
I did pre-order my iPhone 4, received it Wednesday, returned it to the Apple Store in Greensboro, NC this morning just waiting now on AT&T to cancel my contract upgrade. If I didn't have hundreds invested in iOS software then I would switch to a different platform.
I just got my hands on one a few minutes ago. Girl in the office pre ordered one. I tested the antenna issue and here is my experience.
If I hold it normally with the left palm touching the area of concern it dropped from 5 bars to 4 after about 10-15 seconds. I was holding it gently not pressing hard into my palm. However if I pressed my thumb quite firmly across the seam it would drop the bars down to 2. I found that with normal use where you touch the sensitive location somewhat off and on during a call you should be ok, but if you are applying a lot of pressure as to make full skin contact for a sustained length of time you may affect the reception.
Does it affect the call, have you tried calling her phone from a land line while performing those tests? Is it possible that you can have her test the phone calls while doing that? This way, it can confirm whether or not doing so will make you loose calls or have the quality drop.
This antenna thing is an Apple Basher trick. My IPhone 4 works great. If you have sweaty hands, and are out on the edge of a Wi-Fi network range, it might make a difference. I have tried and it just doesn't happen. AT&T dropped down to Edge coverage briefly yesterday, due to the system overload they experinced. It came back to 5 Bars of 3G by late afternoon. This is a non-issue, and should not be blown up into a genuine problem. It Isn"t1
So at what point is it reasonable to make a claim that a problem is significant? That is a sincere question. Seriously, what would it take for you to say this is a significant problem?
I don't think you can until there is some formal report stating it as such. We can theorize that it's significant to all devices sold and hypothesize as to what the cause is and what the resolution will be, but to we cannot reasonably claim that it's a "design flaw" that affects everyone while standing on an anti-Apple soapbox without looking like crazy people on the street spouting Revelations and prophesying the end of the world.
Question: has anyone tried a Belkin or Griffin Technology iPhone protective case and see it THAT cures the problem? If it does, that tells me there's a physical problem with the iPhone 4 itself--too much sensitivity to the electrical charge from a human body transmitted through the skin of your hand. I'm surprised Apple didn't catch this issue during final testing.
Ok, just got off the phone with Steve Jobs, it is not a design flaw at all, it is actually the key combination to turn your iPhone 4 into an iPod Touch 4. So you see you are getting TWO devices for the price of one, and you are getting a yet released device on top of it. I am so happy Steve does so much for us. All you fanbois can get back inline, Apple will take care of you.
Does it affect the call, have you tried calling her phone from a land line while performing those tests? Is it possible that you can have her test the phone calls while doing that? This way, it can confirm whether or not doing so will make you loose calls or have the quality drop.
I called my iPhone while holding it gently but I can't say that I evaluated the sound quality. It did not drop but then again we had at probably 4 bars on hers and 4-5 on my 3Gs.
I think my conclusion is that I am no longer concerned and will eventually buy one, but my contract is not up until next year.
That I would believe is a software problem or network congestion problem, not a problem with the antenna.
Don't I wish. All I know is that the bars drop on the call today, day before they didn't, with the 3Gs.
I have been an early adopter my whole life, but this time I think that I am going to revert to my old phone for a few months. iPhones are cool, but at some level, I need to make a phone call.
Comments
In a nutshell, the FCC doesn't test the phones by actually holding them up to someone's head and making calls, they test the phone flat with nothing touching it. Now this doesn't let Apple off the hook for the design, but it does explain why its easy to block the antenna, and why is it there in the first place. Take a look.
http://www.antennasys.com/antennasys...-antennas.html
Gruber pushing his agenda.
Sure he does ... it's called "Class Action lawsuit". If you continue to sell a product, after being made aware of a design defect - you are committing fraud. In fact, each and every phone Apple sells further increases the damages that will be accessed.
Thus, it is in Apple's best interests to fix this problem post haste.
That would be a funny. Apple is starting to feel the pain of being a large company, hard to hide in the shadows when you have grown this big this fast.
Signal bars are relative. Do you think a phone with 5 bars, 1 mile from a cell tower, will have the same signal strength as a phone with 5 bars, 100 ft from a tower?
If a phone is close enough to a tower, an antenna's poor performance becomes less of an issue.
Now who's the one that doesn't have a clue?
I'm not trying to defend Steve Jobs or Apple. I'm just trying to point out why it's not happening to all phones. I do think there is a fundamental flaw with the phone.
I think the issue is made worse due to the signal being GSM and 3G. I've had issues in the past with GSM, back all the way since AT&T left TDMA and went GSM. It didn't matter what phone I had: Sony Ericcson, Nokia, Palm (ugh), and Motorola. They all had issues with signal loss. Worse than TDMA.
The only place where my phone worked beautifully was in Seattle, and that's because the original AT&T headquarters was there.
I still have the original iPhone and it's ok as far as signal goes, but compared to my girlfriends 3G, mine is better in receiving calls unless she drops the 3G and goes 2G. My brother who uses a BB, also has issues with 3G. His phone sounds like he's underwater, and replacing it hasn't done much to the call quality.
Now Apple has done some further changes to the new iPhone in the way it connects to the network, according to what they told Walt Mossberg. I think that this new way, coupled with the antenna design, and AT&T being what it is, makes this issue amplified. The other thing to consider is how long was this phone being tested and where. Where, being more important.
It's going to be a challenge to fix this issue, but it still won't make me go Android or BB.
I dont get it either, are we the only people on the planet without this problem...you'd think it was everyone, but I can hold my phone the "wrong way" and see no bar drop off...
Ditto, no change for me regardless of how I hold the phone. I have four bars to start with, but others posting here say they see a drop "from five to zero" bars.
I'm also failing to see how this is a conspiracy against left-handed people. Whether I hold the phone in my right or left hand, my fingers end up wrapping around and "connecting" all three parts of the outer case anyway. This would make more sense if the claim is that the hand blocks the antenna signal, because in that case I have more "meat" on the left side than on the right side. But I don't see how this can be a conductivity problem. Not on my phone, anyway. I watched a YouTube video where the guy was really gripping it tight, cupping his palm all the way around the left side, so I could imagine that's a blocking rather than a conductivity problem.
Anyway, does this phone use the headphone cable as an extension of the antenna as other phones do? I wonder if anyone who sees the problem on their phone has tried with headphones attached?
Are you not famliar with the fable?The term quite nice compared to what I'd likely say in person to someone jumping to erroneous conclusions and running around claiming imminent doom based on anecdotal evidence or other very, very limited data.
There is no evidence to support a HUGE problem. There is proof that people have held their iPhones in a certain way and the bars dropped. There is also proof this has occurred with previous iPhones and other cellphones.
Now you have Ireland and SpotOn making it their mission in life to talk people out of buying new iPhones because have experienced an issue. They are saying it's a design flaw affecting all phones. You don't think that's an acorn falling being touted as the apocalypse?
The only HUGE problem we've seen so far ?and has always and will always affect every product ever made ? is if your device doesn't work as expected you are an unsatisfied customer. If my iPhone 4 would lose bars and drop calls from holding it in my left hand (the hand I hold it in) I would take it to Apple to get a new one. It's really that simple. To expect there will be no production issues with mass-produced CE is simply unrealistic and ignorant.
PS: Apple engineers say it's better to lose iPhone bars than to lose an iPhone in bars.
You seem to be lumping all of your opponents into a single category. Sure, some people who disagree with you are doing so in an ill-informed or trollish manner. But that doesn't mean that you can write everyone off with a single brush stroke. In fact, you've rudely and incorrectly characterized my point, and then proceeded to rail against that incorrect characterization.
With no empirical data to consider, all any of have to go on are the anecdotes we've personally observed or seen on the internet. Certainly, there is always a tendency for problems to be over-represented in the news and on forums. So at what point is it reasonable to make a claim that a problem is significant? That is a sincere question. Seriously, what would it take for you to say this is a significant problem?
How do you know that for certain?
Does it matter. No.
How do you know that for certain?
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees these absolute statements based on limited information as absurd.
There is a major problem with my iPhone 4, and no one can reasonably deny it.
Now that is a reasonable post. Personally, I would return it for another device.
Nice try. Try reading first before shooting your mouth off, Ireland.
If I hold it normally with the left palm touching the area of concern it dropped from 5 bars to 4 after about 10-15 seconds. I was holding it gently not pressing hard into my palm. However if I pressed my thumb quite firmly across the seam it would drop the bars down to 2. I found that with normal use where you touch the sensitive location somewhat off and on during a call you should be ok, but if you are applying a lot of pressure as to make full skin contact for a sustained length of time you may affect the reception.
With no empirical data to consider, all any of have to go on are the anecdotes we've personally observed or seen on the internet. Certainly, there is always a tendency for problems to be over-represented in the news and on forums. So at what point is it reasonable to make a claim that a problem is significant? That is a sincere question. Seriously, what would it take for you to say this is a significant problem?
If Steve said it then he couldn't deny it. Steve isn't saying it, 'cause he knows there's an army there for him.
This is turning into a very ugly product introduction and it really exposes a fundamental flaw at Apple concerning real-world testing... they simply don't know how to do it!
I think they know HOW to do it, but I think they don't do enough real-world testing because they have become so ridiculously paranoid about new models being leaked.
A phone that sells 600,000 in its first day and presumably 10,000,000 in a year should probably have been tested by at least 1000 people. I'd bet Apple didn't test the phone with 100 people.
I love Apple but their arrogance is going to turn the perception of Apple from something unique into "just another typical cruddy manufacturer" in the long term.
As for this particular problem, assuming it's real, if Apple had been aware of the problem, it seems to me it could have been easily solved by placing the breaks in the antenna either at the very top or the very bottom of the phone. But they probably weren't aware of the problem because they didn't do enough testing.
And, I'm right handed, but I hold the phone in my left hand because I type with my right, except when I'm on a call, when I hold the phone in my right hand. I don't know if this is typical for right-handed people or not. From the videos I've seen, I'm not sure why the hand you hold the phone in should make any difference. Isn't the antenna break on both sides of the phone in the same location? So whether you hold it left- or right-handed, isn't it likely for the edge of one's palm to cover that spot?
So if you buy his explanation, then why do think he isn't relevant?
I do buy his explanation about internal antenna placement and attenuation when occluded. He alludes that every phone suffers what the iPhone 4 does which is false.
He pretty much sums up what's going on, why it's going on, and why nobody has done anything different.
Except that halfway through his article he starts to change his tune, he even says that it was a design decision by Apple and could not be fixed, which is a nice way of saying it has a design flaw. Yes it is a design flaw because they chose a thinner enclose that forbade an internal (non touchable) antenna.
So after equating other phones that lose a few bars when their antennas are occluded to the iPhone which goes out of service if simply touched in the wrong spot he goes on to link to a youtube video. This video shows an iPhone losing service by placing the iPhone 4 on it's side and laying a key across the antenna gap. That is plain bs, where is a SINGLE video of ANY OTHER PHONE completely going from full strength to no signal by laying a key on it. All it takes is one, just one and then he can say that all phones are affected this way.
So yes I do buy his explanation of antenna attenuation by hand occlusion in all phones, but I flatly refuse to believe that all phone are affected the way the iPhone 4 is by holding it, touching it or laying a key on it.
Plus by the end of the article, after all he says about the design of the new iPhone and how it could affect the signal, he says he's buying one!
Yeah that made me wonder about his motivations in the whole thing. First he tries to muddy the water by saying all phones do that, then he claims he is going to buy one.
If you don't like the explanation, then don't buy one. If you already did and are unsatisfied, take it back and get a refund and buy what you think will get better reception.
I don't like the explanation either, but i'm not going to shoot the messenger.
I did pre-order my iPhone 4, received it Wednesday, returned it to the Apple Store in Greensboro, NC this morning just waiting now on AT&T to cancel my contract upgrade. If I didn't have hundreds invested in iOS software then I would switch to a different platform.
I just got my hands on one a few minutes ago. Girl in the office pre ordered one. I tested the antenna issue and here is my experience.
If I hold it normally with the left palm touching the area of concern it dropped from 5 bars to 4 after about 10-15 seconds. I was holding it gently not pressing hard into my palm. However if I pressed my thumb quite firmly across the seam it would drop the bars down to 2. I found that with normal use where you touch the sensitive location somewhat off and on during a call you should be ok, but if you are applying a lot of pressure as to make full skin contact for a sustained length of time you may affect the reception.
Does it affect the call, have you tried calling her phone from a land line while performing those tests? Is it possible that you can have her test the phone calls while doing that? This way, it can confirm whether or not doing so will make you loose calls or have the quality drop.
So at what point is it reasonable to make a claim that a problem is significant? That is a sincere question. Seriously, what would it take for you to say this is a significant problem?
I don't think you can until there is some formal report stating it as such. We can theorize that it's significant to all devices sold and hypothesize as to what the cause is and what the resolution will be, but to we cannot reasonably claim that it's a "design flaw" that affects everyone while standing on an anti-Apple soapbox without looking like crazy people on the street spouting Revelations and prophesying the end of the world.
Does it affect the call, have you tried calling her phone from a land line while performing those tests? Is it possible that you can have her test the phone calls while doing that? This way, it can confirm whether or not doing so will make you loose calls or have the quality drop.
I called my iPhone while holding it gently but I can't say that I evaluated the sound quality. It did not drop but then again we had at probably 4 bars on hers and 4-5 on my 3Gs.
I think my conclusion is that I am no longer concerned and will eventually buy one, but my contract is not up until next year.
That I would believe is a software problem or network congestion problem, not a problem with the antenna.
Don't I wish. All I know is that the bars drop on the call today, day before they didn't, with the 3Gs.
I have been an early adopter my whole life, but this time I think that I am going to revert to my old phone for a few months. iPhones are cool, but at some level, I need to make a phone call.