Apple says any mobile phone has reception issues when held wrong

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  • Reply 421 of 444
    davegeedavegee Posts: 2,765member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dfiler View Post


    Hopefully you're saying that in jest.



    What we're seeing here is an unexpected shortcoming as compared to a well known product eco-system alternative.



    No jest...



    This is what Apple has turned into.... They are the 'word' they are the 'law'... People like me have vocally expressed our displeasure with how Apple was behaving and everyone came to their defense and attacked those (like me) and shouted us down.



    Steve's QUIP about this says it all:



    "Don't hold it that way!"



    Well, congratulations Apple defenders you have only yourself to blame!



    Dave
  • Reply 422 of 444
    irelandireland Posts: 17,798member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DaveGee View Post


    No jest...



    This is what Apple has turned into.... They are the 'word' they are the 'law'... People like me have vocally expressed our displeasure with how Apple was behaving and everyone came to their defense and attacked those (like me) and shouted us down.



    Steve's QUIP about this says it all:



    "Don't hold it that way!"



    Well, congratulations Apple defenders you have only yourself to blame!



    Dave



    Whatever about Apple, Steve's saying that is indefensible. It's insulting.
  • Reply 423 of 444
    dean812dean812 Posts: 32member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by msantti View Post


    I can't get mine to do it.



    I must be retarded.



    When I stand on my head and balance the phone on the bottom of my feet, it will do it though!







    Yea using the "R" word is just so amusing isn't?! Check yourself before you speak!
  • Reply 424 of 444
    bdblackbdblack Posts: 146member
    This is clearly a design flaw.



    Almost all portable consumer radio products have a plastic coating on their antenna. There is a good reason for this. Basically, your fleshy paws alter the properties of the antenna when they make direct contact with it. Ironically, this effect is part of how the iPhones touch screen works. The plastic acts as an insulator preventing this. When your skin does make contact with an antenna it's tuning can change dramatically. Signal strength can be reduced to almost nothing, or it could get better, or it could stay relatively the same depending on your overall moisture content, saltiness, and mass. Don't believe me? Get an old radio with a naked antenna and move it around and try touching the antenna. You will notice upon contact the signal will change.

    Remember old analogue rabbit ears? Anyone who has used these would have found holding the antenna affects the signal. You move them around and finally get them into a spot where they work. Great, then you let go and go to sit down and the picture goes. Very frustrating.



    Remember how apple field tested the iphones in cases? They never would have been able to observe this problem because they never had the phones naked in the field. The effect probably isn't noticeable on their campus either. Very funny their engineers didn't see this one coming.



    My advice? Get a bumper or some other case.

    Whatever you use it should have a bit of thickness to it.
  • Reply 425 of 444
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BDBLACK View Post


    This is clearly a design flaw.



    Almost all portable consumer radio products have a plastic coating on their antenna. There is a good reason for this. [...]



    And the fact that it's not affecting all iPhone 4s doesn't make you think twice about making an arrant claim?



    Seriously people, a little objectivity and critical thinking would go a long way here.
  • Reply 426 of 444
    bdblackbdblack Posts: 146member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    And the fact that it's not affecting all iPhone 4s doesn't make you think twice about making an arrant claim?



    Seriously people, a little objectivity and critical thinking would go a long way here.



    I just explained why it doesn't affect all iPhone 4s, or at least I thought I did.



    There are a number variables depending on the condition of the original signal, and the particular tuning of the antenna. In some cases the signal could be reduced, improved, or unaffected. I'm not prepared to explain the physics of how radios tune into specific frequencies but it is a fact making direct contact with an antenna will affect the signal, and the effect can be rather unpredictable. Go find a manual for an old cellphone with a pull out antenna. It will say right there "don't touch the antenna"
  • Reply 427 of 444
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BDBLACK View Post


    I just explained why it doesn't affect all iPhone 4s, or at least I thought I did.



    There are a number variables depending on the condition of the original signal, and the particular tuning of the antenna. In some cases the signal could be reduced, improved, or unaffected. I'm not prepared to explain the physics of how radios tune into specific frequencies but it is a fact making direct contact with an antenna will affect the signal, and the effect can be rather unpredictable. Go find a manual for an old cellphone with a pull out antenna. It will say right there "don't touch the antenna"



    Before you said it's a design flaw despite it not affecting everyone's phone. Now you are stating that physical objects can affect transmission. Obviously! How does this explain the drop from 5 bars to No Service by simply putting a finger over the gap between antennas? Do you think that a single finger can affect it that much from 5 bars even though this is far being universal or do you think, just maybe, that there is a production problem with some of their phones?
  • Reply 428 of 444
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BDBLACK View Post


    This is clearly a design flaw...Almost all portable consumer radio products have a plastic coating on their antenna...



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    And the fact that it's not affecting all iPhone 4s doesn't make you think twice about making an arrant claim?



    Seriously people, a little objectivity and critical thinking would go a long way here.



    EDIT: Notice my section in purple... This could be one of the causes of variability in experience, besides obviously differences in location and the general variability of electromagnetic waves through air, hands, etc.



    Let me try some brain use. I never thought so much about antenna design. But back when I had my "mini compo" there was the 2-3 foot retractable metal antenna. Don't remember how touching it affected it but certainly the positioning did.



    As for a TV's metal rabbit ears, yeah, that's hell. Touching it definitely affects the reception, somehow I recall though touching it always *improved* reception, when you did let go, as the poster mention, the TV signal would frustratingly get worse.



    Fast forward to the past 10 years, and mobile phones mostly have concealed (AFAIK) antennas and WiFi devices/in laptops all generally concealed.



    My 802.11G PCI WiFi card in my PC desktop has a black plastic antenna. I never considered there would be metal inside that plastic, which it probably does.



    I had kind of assumed that somehow in the past 10 years they had developed some kind of non- or semi-metallic composite material that acts as a good antenna.



    Now, the iPod Touch and iPad has a black plastic part for WiFi and 3G. Clearly in these devices the antenna is covered. The iPad has the WiFi in the Apple logo at the back, covered by the Apple logo plastic, while it has a black part at the top which covers the 3G antenna.



    As for the iPhone 3G/S, the metal bezel is the antenna. Now, could this have been causing signal problems due to it being almost fully exposed? That requires better investigation. But globally I don't think it is as big a problem. Sure, touching it could cause poorer reception as some videos have demonstrated but from a global perspective, signal issues seem mainly to occur on ATT.



    Now we come to the iPhone 4. Assuming it is held in a "right way" there is still hand-to-metal-antenna contact but the worse signal reduction happens when "bridging" that gap between the two antennas (the "wrong way"). In that sense, you have one antenna that is trying to handle Bluetooth, GPS, WiFi, UMTS and GSM, through a "single" antenna of metal band and human body.



    Now here's an interesting test (I knew my Science degree would come in handy one day).



    Has anybody done any objective testing, for example, in isolating the issue as such - Turn off Bluetooth, GPS (not sure how exactly) and WiFi, and UMTS (3G?) --- how is the GSM-only reception? Is it affected as much? Slowly turn on ONE service at a time, isolating which service may be causing the issue. I haven't looked through the videos but with Bluetooth on could there be worse signal reception? Turn off everything, except for UMTS (not sure how GSM would be force-disabled), are there reception problems?



    Another test to do, is to hold, with just two or three fingers, just the sides of the phone. In this way, your hand is again bridging the two antennas. Are there signal problems again? Repeat isolating each service as above. Are your fingers more conductive than your palms? More surface area?



    So I would postulate this is the kind of critical thinking that some have been doing, that Apple is definitely doing now.



    My theory, and it is obviously not novel, just restating, and highlighting what I believe, is that the problem occurs primarily by the bridging of the antennas, not just "touching any metal antennas"... Because such bridging essentially causes the phone to be one continuous antenna, affected by the human hand, trying to handle 5 different types of signals, across much more spectrum/ channels/ electromagnetic bands. So it's a hardware thing. At the same time, it's a software thing because the software has to figure out, hey, WTF, all these signals, what am I supposed to do?



    In conclusion, it appears that a software fix may allow the iPhone4 to understand the variety of signals coming from this one continuous antenna with a lot of interference going on.



    In the longer run, Apple's go-to strategy for the next batch of iPhone 4 would be to identify, obtain and integrate into their manufacturing some sort of translucent, thin, electrically-isolating coating for the metal band.



    Software the temporary fix, hardware coating the longer-term fix. I'm sure the coating can be obtained, there must be tens or hundreds of companies pitching that to Apple right now. There won't be a redesign of the metal band, any major redesign is impossible at this stage without causing Apple hundred of millions of dollars in cost, R&D, lost sales, delays, lawsuits, etc.
  • Reply 429 of 444
    bdblackbdblack Posts: 146member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Before you said it's a design flaw despite it not affecting everyone's phone. Now you are stating that physical objects can affect transmission. Obviously! How does this explain the drop from 5 bars to No Service by simply putting a finger over the gap between antennas? Do you think that a single finger can affect it that much from 5 bars even though this is far being universal or do you think, just maybe, that there is a production problem with some of their phones?



    Absolutly it can, the same way turning a tuner on a radio just a little bit changes the frequency that radio can recive. It would not affect all iphones the same way because no two objects are identical. Small differences in the phones themselves can change the origional tuning. If the signal is strong without the finger touching that gap, obviously the radio is functioning properly. Everything else would be a variable in that case. Clearly, based on the evidence, insulating the antenna solves the problem... which is why almost all consumer radio products have insulated antennas. Flesh has interesting electrical properties, and like any conductive material it can seriously screw with antennas. Generally it's a bad idea to touch an antenna and it's strange for apple to design one you would touch under normal usage.



    Basically, it depends on the properties of the antenna, the finger, and the signal.
  • Reply 430 of 444
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    EDIT: Clearly, in the iPhone 3G/S the metal bezel on the front only handles a subset of all signals, hence the plastic back which allows other signals to go through to the other antennas in the plastic back.
  • Reply 431 of 444
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


    Has anybody done any objective testing, for example, in isolating the issue as such - Turn off Bluetooth, GPS (not sure how exactly) and WiFi, and UMTS (3G?) --- how is the GSM-only reception? Is it affected as much? Slowly turn on ONE service at a time, isolating which service may be causing the issue. I haven't looked through the video but with Bluetooth on could there be worse signal reception? Turn off everything, except for UMTS (not sure how GSM would be force-disabled), are there reception problems?



    I've tried it in likely every way possible without having it jailbroken and seeing specific numerical values from Field Test Mode. I've even had the pleasure of testing on a second iPhone 4 today, though not as extensively as mine. Both worked fine in every test. I even was able to test it in areas showing EDGE and GPRS so it's not just areas with great 3G coverage.



    I'm not sure you can turn off the GPS radio completely. You can turn off Location Services but that may simply be the iOS side of things, without actually affecting the radio itself which may or may not be designed to send back certain requests to the carrier. The digital compass still works with Location Services turned off, but that is expected.



    I'd like to get ahold of one these bad phones so I can test it alongside mine to see if it truly does happen regardless of the frequency, location to tower, etc. or not. I have to assume at this point that if there are no reports showing it being an issue in some places and not in others that it's likely a fault with that particular device no matter what is going on with cellular service.
  • Reply 432 of 444
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    DJRumpy has mentioned - "Interesting. People are reporting that if you disable the 3G radio, the signal strength issues disappear regardless of what you do with your hands on the phone."



    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=948900
  • Reply 433 of 444
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post










    Good catch.



    Apple's probable answer to this: "None of these photos shows someone actually using the iPhone 4 to make a phone call. The closest thing is the first batch, showing people using FaceTime, but that works only via wifi."
  • Reply 434 of 444
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


    DJRumpy has mentioned - "Interesting. People are reporting that if you disable the 3G radio, the signal strength issues disappear regardless of what you do with your hands on the phone."



    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=948900



    That excludes a design flaw which short circuits the antenna since GSM, WiFi and BT all use the antennas. At most, this is pointing to a flaw with the TriQuint UMTS chips, as I previously noted. At the very least, it's a SW/driver issue that can be resolved with an iOS update.
  • Reply 435 of 444
    irelandireland Posts: 17,798member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by johnsawyercjs View Post


    Good catch.



    Apple's probable answer to this: "None of these photos shows someone actually using the iPhone 4 to make a phone call. The closest thing is the first batch, showing people using FaceTime, but that works only via wifi."



    It affects SMS, e-mail too, buying books, buying apps too, over 3G.
  • Reply 436 of 444
    irelandireland Posts: 17,798member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    That excludes a design flaw which short circuits the antenna since GSM, WiFi and BT all use the antennas. At most, this is pointing to a flaw with the TriQuint UMTS chips, as I previously noted. At the very least, it's a SW/driver issue that can be resolved with an iOS update.



    Yes Mr. antenna scientist.
  • Reply 437 of 444
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    Whatever about Apple, Steve's saying that is indefensible. It's insulting.



    Whether 4.0.1, fixes this or not, which I hope it does, Jobs has already created a PR disaster for Apple. This is all over the news.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by str1f3 View Post


    Like you said you don't know if this a design flaw. As of today Apple has not publicly acknowledged a hardware or software issue. It is user error. In the past, they have said an update was coming for a software related issue. If they told Mossberg it was software issue, then why not say so officially?



    That being the said, why continue the flame with the phrase "irrational mob mentality"? Could not also the same be said of those who act irrationally in defense of Apple?



    A design flaw is a very realistic possibility and one can only point to the Mighty Mouse and Cube to see that's a fact.



    Cube wasn't a design flaw, it just wasn't what the user wanted. After that Apple decided that the traditional Mac user was too practical and they needed a new kind of user.
  • Reply 438 of 444
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BenRoethig View Post


    Cube wasn't a design flaw, it just wasn't what the user wanted. After that Apple decided that the traditional Mac user was too practical and they needed a new kind of user.



    For the record there are clear cases where the G4 Cube simply could not operate in anything above 28degC. Due to passive cooling not allowing enough heat to escape. Was 28degC out of operating temperature specifications? Now that I can't be sure of.
  • Reply 439 of 444
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,322moderator
    The Daily Mail in the UK ran a story about an iPhone 4 recall basing it on a fake Twitter post:



    http://www.onlykent.com/20100627/iph...nal-newspaper/



    Google still pulls up the online news link but it has been removed.



    Y'know when bloggers are derided as not being journalists, what does it make journalists employed by national papers who base stories on blogs/tweets?



    I reckon that Apple will fix this issue in manufacturing by perhaps adding either a coating or adding plastic bridges between the seams - that way it looks more Apple-like too. If current users have a problem, they could just exchange them and the ones that are returned can be modified. For the people who decide to stick with their's, they can just get creative:







    4.01 is rumored to come this week, possibly Monday so we'll see if it can be fixed by software.
  • Reply 440 of 444
    osx86osx86 Posts: 1member
    Quote:

    Good catch.



    Apple's probable answer to this: "None of these photos shows someone actually using the iPhone 4 to make a phone call. The closest thing is the first batch, showing people using FaceTime, but that works only via wifi."



    sorry i just had to register in this forum to post exactly the same response. So to the original poster who created this image: you = fail
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