So far, the reports of the iPhone 4's antenna issues have been based entirely upon unscientific testing by users who don't understand how their signal bars work. Comments by engineers Steve Gibson and Simon Byrnand explain that the signal bar meter does not quantify a specific amount of signal available (very different signal variations can still result in five bars being observed).
That means that videos posted by users that show a drop in signal related to hand placement are nearly worthless as evidence of a real problem. Users don't need bars to appear on their phone; they need a strong enough signal to place a call or send and receive data.
I have to disagree. I think users have a very good idea how signal bars work. It's not exactly rocket science, as you make it out to be. Signal bars represent approxiamate signal strength, and both the signal and the receptor (e.g. antenna) factor into play. Common sense is that, if your phone is showing 5 bars and you place a palm or finger over the receptor, its not the signal thats the issue, its the receptor. Either the signal is misrepresented, the antenna is programmed too acutely, or the antenna (in the case of the iPhone 4) is dampened by skin contact, its a problem that has to do with the iPhone, not user error, and not AT&T's network. At this point, we really don't know which of the three it is, but it must be fixed.
I will not sing ATT's praises but I have to say that for me I have had very little problems with the network. I travel for work (pilot) throughout the US and other countries and I don't seem to experience the horror stories others have shared. My only recurring problem is in JFK airport and that is difficult to know whether it it ATT or user density on the airport cell network. I have had similar problems in airports with other phone providers. I am looking forward to a second carrier in the US so all the complainers will leave and I will stay where I am. Just my opinion.
I will not sing ATT's praises but I have to say that for me I have had very little problems with the network. I travel for work (pilot) throughout the US and other countries and I don't seem to experience the horror stories others have shared. My only recurring problem is in JFK airport and that is difficult to know whether it it ATT or user density on the airport cell network. I have had similar problems in airports with other phone providers. I am looking forward to a second carrier in the US so all the complainers will leave and I will stay where I am. Just my opinion.
Shoozz,
A couple of cities have been notoriously horrific for AT&T users. New York and San Francisco. Dan happens to live in S.F., so his AT&T issues are more pronounced than most readers probably experience. From all I've read I gather there are simply more iPhone (and to a lesser extent other smartphone) users in S.F. & N.Y. than AT&T's network can handle reliably. So "bars" in those cities are virtually worthless when it comes to approximating call quality or stability.
Here in Los Angeles, where there are likely far more users than in S.F., we're far more spread out, so individual towers aren't as likely to overloaded or congested. Pretty much if you have a good signal here indicated by bars, you'll have a good call.
Saying that iPhone 4 signaling issues are entirely based "unscientific" testing has to be one of the most insulting statements on this site. I have had more dropped calls in 4 days than I had since original iPhone launch. Each time, it was due to how I held the phone. I am not trying to B.S. I went to the store and got a replacement phone and hoped that I'd be out of my misery. It didn't matter.
Now my iPhone 4 is on eBay and I have ordered a 2$ sim adaptor to get back to my good old 3GS.
A lot of Americans don't know what "scientific" means. It doesn't mean your perception of reality or observation of what you think might being going on based on seeing some evidence.
It means setting up controlled studies and seeking to understand what is actually happening without the bias of what you think may be happening based on a very limited set of information.
You may have experienced very real issues, but that does not mean the issues being reported will also apply to others, or are related to an actual hardware issue, or that the issue can't be resolved. You haven't proven anything.
Everyone is welcome to the club! Do you still have your 3GS?
We can always get back to iPhone 4 when rev.2 comes along with modified antenna. I love the Facetime! I am in communication software development for 15 years and always dreamt of a mainstream Video Call implementation and Apple nailed it.
I rely upon appleinsider.com for all the news about apple products. Between me and my wife, we own 1 MBP (2009) 1 MB (2009) 1 Mac Mini (2010), 1 Magic Mouse (2009), 2 3GS and now 1 iPhone 4. We had owned 2 iPhone 2Gs in the past. I will not even count a few iPod Touch and iPods I had to gift to some loved family members. Just a point in the case that I am not an apple hater. In fact, I make it a point to tell my friends that I have a windows free home.
Saying that iPhone 4 signaling issues are entirely based "unscientific" testing has to be one of the most insulting statements on this site. I have had more dropped calls in 4 days than I had since original iPhone launch. Each time, it was due to how I held the phone. I am not trying to B.S. I went to the store and got a replacement phone and hoped that I'd be out of my misery. It didn't matter.
And I've had ZERO dropped calls since I got my iPhone 4 - compared to occasional dropped calls with my iPhone 3G. See how anecdotal evidence works?
If you're insulted because he said the complaints were unscientific, then either you're far too easily insulted or you don't have any idea how the scientific method works. Either way, you shouldn't be making comments that simply prove that you don't know what you're talking about.
Here, let me point out a few of the questions that a scientific analysis would answer:
- What percentage of phones are having the reported problem?
- What percentage of users see this problem in their normal usage vs. intentionally trying to duplicate it?
- What percentage of dropped calls are occurring with the iPhone 4?
- What percentage of dropped calls occurred with previous iPhones and other iPhones under identical conditions?
- What is the increase in dropped calls (if any) if holding the iPhone with your hand cupped over the bottom?
- And so on.
Does your experience answer ANY of those questions?
Anyone suggesting that the evidence is available to answer those questions is simply making things up and has some kind of agenda.
A couple issues that I've run into since I got my new iP4....
The 3G reception when I'm at work is atrocious. I have to use EDGE to get any data connection for more than a couple seconds. I'm inside at a large tech company facility so there may be a lot of people accessing the network at the same time and we're all overloading the towers. Not a phone issue is my guess.
I have experienced the proximity sensor not working properly. The time that I've noticed it was when I was on a call in a dimly lit room and the backlight would come on periodically during a call though I'd not moved the phone away from my ear. So far I've not muted/put on hold/called another contact during a call as I've seen other people document.
I have been able to reproduce the dropped signal issue but I've never had a dropped call because of it. I think that the call quality overall is better than on my 3GS. It's clearer and that's probably due to the noise-cancelling mic on the phone.
Overall, I'm please with the phone and hope that some iOS updates will remedy the issues that some are experiencing.
It may not be a scientific test or done in a lab in controlled conditions but if I hold my phone in a normal manner, like I've done with every other phone I've ever owned, I can watch the signal strength drop from five to zero bars within 20-30 seconds every time I pick up the phone. I can say also that right now, I will drop about 90% of my calls in that same amount of time, holding the phone in my left hand, like I've done before...I'm praying a firmware update will be made available soon to fix this, and fix it for good, because...
It happens to me too, when I clutch it with my left hand, fully covering the bands. But interestingly, I am getting used to holding it slightly differently (and not because Uncle Steve said so), and find that the problem disappears nearly completely. If it recurs, I will have to consider getting the bumpers, although I have trouble with the aesthetics of it.
Hopefully, there will be a software fix making it a non-issue.
Incidentally, you're right: Facetime is quite impressive.
Everyone is welcome to the club! Do you still have your 3GS?
We can always get back to iPhone 4 when rev.2 comes along with modified antenna. I love the Facetime! I am in communication software development for 15 years and always dreamt of a mainstream Video Call implementation and Apple nailed it.
My 3GS will be in my possession for another hour and 15 minutes. I have been buying and selling extra iPhones since they came out and this year I just don't care about the hassle.
I didn't even sell my iPad WiFi on Craig's List even though I got it the first day and only kept it a week. Paid about $50 for Apple to take that back for a restocking fee, but that was just a momentary lapse in judgement. In retrospect I wish i would have thought of that.
As for the iPhone 4, I highly doubt any HW changes will be made to the design. If it's a physical defect I'm wager it's a production issue affect only a subset, how ever large that may be,.of the total units sold.
A lot of Americans don't know what "scientific" means. It doesn't mean your perception of reality or observation of what you think might being going on based on seeing some evidence.
It means setting up controlled studies and seeking to understand what is actually happening without the bias of what you think may be happening based on a very limited set of information.
You may have experienced very real issues, but that does not mean the issues being reported will also apply to others, or are related to an actual hardware issue, or that the issue can't be resolved. You haven't proven anything.
Well, firstly, the article undermines a real problem faced by real users who happen to be real apple fans. So regardless of the term "scientific", the article is one-sided.
Secondly, if you think everyone else is a dumb, you are mistaken. I have (and still am) working for major cellular equipment manufacturers and directly participated in and contributed to 3GPP and LTE standardization. I know what diagnostics to check and how the signal behaves at my home. I know exactly where the ATT towers are and I have participated in large scale operator RF planning and testing so I know what the bars actually mean and how to verify if the CSQ and CQI is good at my home. So it'd be nice if you stop assuming that people complain for no good reason and without "scientific" knowledge!!
So far, the reports of the iPhone 4's antenna issues have been based entirely upon unscientific testing by users who don't understand how their signal bars work. Comments by engineers Steve Gibson and Simon Byrnand explain that the signal bar meter does not quantify a specific amount of signal available (very different signal variations can still result in five bars being observed).
I have never before felt the need to complain about an article in the venerable Appleinsider. However, the paragraph above got my goat. It is true that I do not understand quite how signal bars work, but what I can assure you is that this is not just an issue of bars, as my signal goes from 5 bars to nil in about 15 seconds, but most significantly of all there is a concomitant drop of the phone call or a total failure of download of data, whichever is appropriate.
Not scientific, I grant you, but this isn't simply a matter of false reporting by the OS (via bars), rather it is a genuine issue, I'm surprised that neither you nor your colleagues appear to be able to replicate it.
"Despite its fancy hardware, the core feature that is getting people into the Apple Store for iPhone 4 is FaceTime. "
This is a total crock of shit! I doubt there was anyone in line at my Apple store who would not have also been there without Facetime. People were there for a better screen, faster processor, better camera and yes the front facing camera, but if there was no facetime and just support for Skype, we all would have been there. Facetime is a great example of media buying into marketing without questioning it, and then perpetuationg its own feedback loop without regard to reality.
How many people have actually made more that a few novelty Facetime calls. Once you tried it to see what it was all about, has it REALLY become part of your daily routine?
IMHO, the screen and camera are the killer pieces of hardware and if there is a big app hit in this iteration it will be iMovie. After using iMovie for the first time I see myself and others using it all the time. After using Facetalk for the first time, I was wondering if I would ever bother to use it a second time.
Well, firstly, the article undermines a real problem faced by real users who happen to be real apple fans. So regardless of the term "scientific", the article is one-sided.
Secondly, if you think everyone else is a dumb, you are mistaken. I have (and still am) working for major cellular equipment manufacturers and directly participated in and contributed to 3GPP and LTE standardization. I know what diagnostics to check and how the signal behaves at my home. I know exactly where the ATT towers are and I have participated in large scale operator RF planning and testing so I know what the bars actually mean and how to verify if the CSQ and CQI is good at my home. So it'd be nice if you stop assuming that people complain for no good reason and without "scientific" knowledge!!
And, yet, in spite of your claim of scientific knowledge, the concept of determining how many people are having the problem never occurred to you. The thought of proper controls never occurred to you. The thought of independent verification of the claims never occurred to you. The thought of allowing someone with all the proper equipment to determine the scope of the problem and a solution never occurred to you.
Sorry, but anyone saying "I have a problem so Apple sucks' can't event pretend to have scientific knowledge. Well, they can pretend, but no one in their right mind would believe it.
I have never before felt the need to complain about an article in the venerable Appleinsider. However, the paragraph above got my goat. It is true that I do not understand quite how signal bars work, but what I can assure you is that this is not just an issue of bars, as my signal goes from 5 bars to nil in about 15 seconds, but most significantly of all there is a concomitant drop of the phone call or a total failure of download of data, whichever is appropriate.
Not scientific, I grant you, but this isn't simply a matter of false reporting by the OS (via bars), rather it is a genuine issue, I'm surprised that neither you nor your colleagues appear to be able to replicate it.
Regards,
R.
Well said. I share your pain. eBay is your friend!
Comments
So far, the reports of the iPhone 4's antenna issues have been based entirely upon unscientific testing by users who don't understand how their signal bars work. Comments by engineers Steve Gibson and Simon Byrnand explain that the signal bar meter does not quantify a specific amount of signal available (very different signal variations can still result in five bars being observed).
That means that videos posted by users that show a drop in signal related to hand placement are nearly worthless as evidence of a real problem. Users don't need bars to appear on their phone; they need a strong enough signal to place a call or send and receive data.
I have to disagree. I think users have a very good idea how signal bars work. It's not exactly rocket science, as you make it out to be. Signal bars represent approxiamate signal strength, and both the signal and the receptor (e.g. antenna) factor into play. Common sense is that, if your phone is showing 5 bars and you place a palm or finger over the receptor, its not the signal thats the issue, its the receptor. Either the signal is misrepresented, the antenna is programmed too acutely, or the antenna (in the case of the iPhone 4) is dampened by skin contact, its a problem that has to do with the iPhone, not user error, and not AT&T's network. At this point, we really don't know which of the three it is, but it must be fixed.
Now my iPhone 4 is on eBay and I have ordered a 2$ sim adaptor to get back to my good old 3GS.
Why don't you return it to Apple instead of Ebay?
Why don't you return it to Apple instead of Ebay?
He can make money from selling it.
Maybe you should get out from behind that steel reinforced concrete wall and get a better signal.
I will not sing ATT's praises but I have to say that for me I have had very little problems with the network. I travel for work (pilot) throughout the US and other countries and I don't seem to experience the horror stories others have shared. My only recurring problem is in JFK airport and that is difficult to know whether it it ATT or user density on the airport cell network. I have had similar problems in airports with other phone providers. I am looking forward to a second carrier in the US so all the complainers will leave and I will stay where I am. Just my opinion.
Shoozz,
A couple of cities have been notoriously horrific for AT&T users. New York and San Francisco. Dan happens to live in S.F., so his AT&T issues are more pronounced than most readers probably experience. From all I've read I gather there are simply more iPhone (and to a lesser extent other smartphone) users in S.F. & N.Y. than AT&T's network can handle reliably. So "bars" in those cities are virtually worthless when it comes to approximating call quality or stability.
Here in Los Angeles, where there are likely far more users than in S.F., we're far more spread out, so individual towers aren't as likely to overloaded or congested. Pretty much if you have a good signal here indicated by bars, you'll have a good call.
He can make money from selling it.
What a racket. He should have bought one for his wife as well.
What a racket. He should have bought one for his wife as well.
If I were you, I would have thought of it!!
What a racket. He should have bought one for his wife as well.
It kind of makes me want to do it.
Saying that iPhone 4 signaling issues are entirely based "unscientific" testing has to be one of the most insulting statements on this site. I have had more dropped calls in 4 days than I had since original iPhone launch. Each time, it was due to how I held the phone. I am not trying to B.S. I went to the store and got a replacement phone and hoped that I'd be out of my misery. It didn't matter.
Now my iPhone 4 is on eBay and I have ordered a 2$ sim adaptor to get back to my good old 3GS.
A lot of Americans don't know what "scientific" means. It doesn't mean your perception of reality or observation of what you think might being going on based on seeing some evidence.
It means setting up controlled studies and seeking to understand what is actually happening without the bias of what you think may be happening based on a very limited set of information.
You may have experienced very real issues, but that does not mean the issues being reported will also apply to others, or are related to an actual hardware issue, or that the issue can't be resolved. You haven't proven anything.
It kind of makes me want to do it.
Everyone is welcome to the club! Do you still have your 3GS?
We can always get back to iPhone 4 when rev.2 comes along with modified antenna. I love the Facetime! I am in communication software development for 15 years and always dreamt of a mainstream Video Call implementation and Apple nailed it.
I rely upon appleinsider.com for all the news about apple products. Between me and my wife, we own 1 MBP (2009) 1 MB (2009) 1 Mac Mini (2010), 1 Magic Mouse (2009), 2 3GS and now 1 iPhone 4. We had owned 2 iPhone 2Gs in the past. I will not even count a few iPod Touch and iPods I had to gift to some loved family members. Just a point in the case that I am not an apple hater. In fact, I make it a point to tell my friends that I have a windows free home.
Saying that iPhone 4 signaling issues are entirely based "unscientific" testing has to be one of the most insulting statements on this site. I have had more dropped calls in 4 days than I had since original iPhone launch. Each time, it was due to how I held the phone. I am not trying to B.S. I went to the store and got a replacement phone and hoped that I'd be out of my misery. It didn't matter.
And I've had ZERO dropped calls since I got my iPhone 4 - compared to occasional dropped calls with my iPhone 3G. See how anecdotal evidence works?
If you're insulted because he said the complaints were unscientific, then either you're far too easily insulted or you don't have any idea how the scientific method works. Either way, you shouldn't be making comments that simply prove that you don't know what you're talking about.
Here, let me point out a few of the questions that a scientific analysis would answer:
- What percentage of phones are having the reported problem?
- What percentage of users see this problem in their normal usage vs. intentionally trying to duplicate it?
- What percentage of dropped calls are occurring with the iPhone 4?
- What percentage of dropped calls occurred with previous iPhones and other iPhones under identical conditions?
- What is the increase in dropped calls (if any) if holding the iPhone with your hand cupped over the bottom?
- And so on.
Does your experience answer ANY of those questions?
Anyone suggesting that the evidence is available to answer those questions is simply making things up and has some kind of agenda.
The 3G reception when I'm at work is atrocious. I have to use EDGE to get any data connection for more than a couple seconds. I'm inside at a large tech company facility so there may be a lot of people accessing the network at the same time and we're all overloading the towers. Not a phone issue is my guess.
I have experienced the proximity sensor not working properly. The time that I've noticed it was when I was on a call in a dimly lit room and the backlight would come on periodically during a call though I'd not moved the phone away from my ear. So far I've not muted/put on hold/called another contact during a call as I've seen other people document.
I have been able to reproduce the dropped signal issue but I've never had a dropped call because of it. I think that the call quality overall is better than on my 3GS. It's clearer and that's probably due to the noise-cancelling mic on the phone.
Overall, I'm please with the phone and hope that some iOS updates will remedy the issues that some are experiencing.
It may not be a scientific test or done in a lab in controlled conditions but if I hold my phone in a normal manner, like I've done with every other phone I've ever owned, I can watch the signal strength drop from five to zero bars within 20-30 seconds every time I pick up the phone. I can say also that right now, I will drop about 90% of my calls in that same amount of time, holding the phone in my left hand, like I've done before...I'm praying a firmware update will be made available soon to fix this, and fix it for good, because...
It happens to me too, when I clutch it with my left hand, fully covering the bands. But interestingly, I am getting used to holding it slightly differently (and not because Uncle Steve said so), and find that the problem disappears nearly completely. If it recurs, I will have to consider getting the bumpers, although I have trouble with the aesthetics of it.
Hopefully, there will be a software fix making it a non-issue.
Incidentally, you're right: Facetime is quite impressive.
Everyone is welcome to the club! Do you still have your 3GS?
We can always get back to iPhone 4 when rev.2 comes along with modified antenna. I love the Facetime! I am in communication software development for 15 years and always dreamt of a mainstream Video Call implementation and Apple nailed it.
My 3GS will be in my possession for another hour and 15 minutes. I have been buying and selling extra iPhones since they came out and this year I just don't care about the hassle.
I didn't even sell my iPad WiFi on Craig's List even though I got it the first day and only kept it a week. Paid about $50 for Apple to take that back for a restocking fee, but that was just a momentary lapse in judgement. In retrospect I wish i would have thought of that.
As for the iPhone 4, I highly doubt any HW changes will be made to the design. If it's a physical defect I'm wager it's a production issue affect only a subset, how ever large that may be,.of the total units sold.
A lot of Americans don't know what "scientific" means. It doesn't mean your perception of reality or observation of what you think might being going on based on seeing some evidence.
It means setting up controlled studies and seeking to understand what is actually happening without the bias of what you think may be happening based on a very limited set of information.
You may have experienced very real issues, but that does not mean the issues being reported will also apply to others, or are related to an actual hardware issue, or that the issue can't be resolved. You haven't proven anything.
Well, firstly, the article undermines a real problem faced by real users who happen to be real apple fans. So regardless of the term "scientific", the article is one-sided.
Secondly, if you think everyone else is a dumb, you are mistaken. I have (and still am) working for major cellular equipment manufacturers and directly participated in and contributed to 3GPP and LTE standardization. I know what diagnostics to check and how the signal behaves at my home. I know exactly where the ATT towers are and I have participated in large scale operator RF planning and testing so I know what the bars actually mean and how to verify if the CSQ and CQI is good at my home. So it'd be nice if you stop assuming that people complain for no good reason and without "scientific" knowledge!!
So far, the reports of the iPhone 4's antenna issues have been based entirely upon unscientific testing by users who don't understand how their signal bars work. Comments by engineers Steve Gibson and Simon Byrnand explain that the signal bar meter does not quantify a specific amount of signal available (very different signal variations can still result in five bars being observed).
I have never before felt the need to complain about an article in the venerable Appleinsider. However, the paragraph above got my goat. It is true that I do not understand quite how signal bars work, but what I can assure you is that this is not just an issue of bars, as my signal goes from 5 bars to nil in about 15 seconds, but most significantly of all there is a concomitant drop of the phone call or a total failure of download of data, whichever is appropriate.
Not scientific, I grant you, but this isn't simply a matter of false reporting by the OS (via bars), rather it is a genuine issue, I'm surprised that neither you nor your colleagues appear to be able to replicate it.
Regards,
R.
This is a total crock of shit! I doubt there was anyone in line at my Apple store who would not have also been there without Facetime. People were there for a better screen, faster processor, better camera and yes the front facing camera, but if there was no facetime and just support for Skype, we all would have been there. Facetime is a great example of media buying into marketing without questioning it, and then perpetuationg its own feedback loop without regard to reality.
How many people have actually made more that a few novelty Facetime calls. Once you tried it to see what it was all about, has it REALLY become part of your daily routine?
IMHO, the screen and camera are the killer pieces of hardware and if there is a big app hit in this iteration it will be iMovie. After using iMovie for the first time I see myself and others using it all the time. After using Facetalk for the first time, I was wondering if I would ever bother to use it a second time.
Well, firstly, the article undermines a real problem faced by real users who happen to be real apple fans. So regardless of the term "scientific", the article is one-sided.
Secondly, if you think everyone else is a dumb, you are mistaken. I have (and still am) working for major cellular equipment manufacturers and directly participated in and contributed to 3GPP and LTE standardization. I know what diagnostics to check and how the signal behaves at my home. I know exactly where the ATT towers are and I have participated in large scale operator RF planning and testing so I know what the bars actually mean and how to verify if the CSQ and CQI is good at my home. So it'd be nice if you stop assuming that people complain for no good reason and without "scientific" knowledge!!
And, yet, in spite of your claim of scientific knowledge, the concept of determining how many people are having the problem never occurred to you. The thought of proper controls never occurred to you. The thought of independent verification of the claims never occurred to you. The thought of allowing someone with all the proper equipment to determine the scope of the problem and a solution never occurred to you.
Sorry, but anyone saying "I have a problem so Apple sucks' can't event pretend to have scientific knowledge. Well, they can pretend, but no one in their right mind would believe it.
I have never before felt the need to complain about an article in the venerable Appleinsider. However, the paragraph above got my goat. It is true that I do not understand quite how signal bars work, but what I can assure you is that this is not just an issue of bars, as my signal goes from 5 bars to nil in about 15 seconds, but most significantly of all there is a concomitant drop of the phone call or a total failure of download of data, whichever is appropriate.
Not scientific, I grant you, but this isn't simply a matter of false reporting by the OS (via bars), rather it is a genuine issue, I'm surprised that neither you nor your colleagues appear to be able to replicate it.
Regards,
R.
Well said. I share your pain. eBay is your friend!