RIM, Nokia respond to Apple's "Antennagate" press conference

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  • Reply 501 of 547
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by shadash View Post


    So there is no relationship between quality and customer satisfaction. You've had 2 Macs break. Are you satisfied? Your experience hasn't been my experience. I have a G4 Titanium PowerBook that I got in 2002 that is still running strong.



    For the first failure I was very disappointed by the Apple customer service, but was very pleased with the repair, for the second failure I didn't both ringing Apple, just took it to the repair agent, which was a very poor experience (and I let Apple know so as well.)
  • Reply 502 of 547
    djsherlydjsherly Posts: 1,031member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by joseph_went_south View Post


    Personally I love the way my iPhone 3Gs feels in the palm of my hand. I am in Canada and will be getting the iPhone 4 as soon as it's available. I never liked the way most other phones feel in my hand. I will shift a finger over if I need to and even still that will make for a more pleasurable holding experience than I can get with any other phone out there. People who feel otherwise, don't buy the iPhone! I am amazed you and others want to keep dragging this out... don't like the way you may need to grip the iPhone 4 to avoid a decrease in reception and prefer a different phone? Then buy the competition! Sheesh!



    I've already stated my reasons and I think they are quite rational. I never once said I prefer another phone - the truth is quite the opposite. And I've decided that Apple is not getting my cash until I'm satisfied this issue won't affect me. I've already stated that the risk of getting a dud phone in unacceptable to me because my return options are limited and quite inconvenient. What the hell else do you think I should be doing?



    Be getting off your high horse.
  • Reply 503 of 547
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 8CoreWhore View Post


    What evidence do you have that iPhone db drop is higher than norm?



    None. You are merely an irrational koolade drinking hater.



    I'd expect someone has already replied you, but just in case... according to AnandTech's iPhone 4 review, as seen here: http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/t...one-4-review/2



    Holding phone naturally, iP4 has 10x more attenuation than iP3Gs and almost twice more than Nexus One:

    iP4 : iP3Gs : Nexus = 19.8 : 1.9 : 10.7dB



    Cupping tightly is a bit better:

    iP4 : iP3Gs : Nexus = 24.6 : 14.3 : 17.7dB, but still solid difference.



    Holding on open palm:

    iP4 : iP3Gs : Nexus = 9.2 : 0.2 : 6.7dB



    Only holding naturally inside case gives iP4 respectable result:

    iP4 : iP3Gs : Nexus = 7.2 : 3.2 : 7.7dB, actually a tad better than Nexus.



    Unfortunately iP4 is giving less attenuation than Nexus only when not in touch with human skin. It seems iP4 doesn't want to be hold by humans, which is not a good habit for a phone.



    Obviously every phone is having some attenuation, question is: where is the limit of acceptable. I'm not aware there is standard that says that attenuation should not go bellow XYdB regardless how phone is held (though obviously there should be one in the process of approving new phones), so it boils down to what is acceptable to each individual.
  • Reply 504 of 547
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post


    I think that the RIM executives are the pot calling the kettle black. How can they deny the video proof that their phones have the exact same problem? The hand in the video held their phone using fingertips and then with the palm and fingers encircling it with a normal grip. Their bars dropped just the same as the other phones.



    Nobody likes being caught in their hypocrisy but it happens.



    I think that is nonsense.



    Back to good old car analogy:



    Apple's car requires 100 meters to stop from 100 to 0 kmh. People start complaining and Apple releases statement that Nokia and RIM cars need distance to stop as well, neither will stop on the spot and that is just another challenge for car industry... completely disregarding that Nokia and RIM cars, having same size/weight, will stop in 50 and 60 meters respectively.



    However, if you drive your Apple car in scuba-diving body-glove suit, it will stop as quickly as the others, even better than some. So Apple decides to drop a scuba-diving suit in every trunk. Problem solved?



    Hm...
  • Reply 505 of 547
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


    I think that is nonsense.



    Back to good old car analogy:



    Apple's car requires 100 meters to stop from 100 to 0 kmh. People start complaining and Apple releases statement that Nokia and RIM cars need distance to stop as well, neither will stop on the spot and that is just another challenge for car industry... completely disregarding that Nokia and RIM cars, having same size/weight, will stop in 50 and 60 meters respectively.



    However, if you drive your Apple car in scuba-diving body-glove suit, it will stop as quickly as the others, even better than some. So Apple decides to drop a scuba-diving suit in every trunk. Problem solved?



    Hm...



    False analogy, and hopefully you see that. You're just looking at the numbers and not the performance. Even Anandtech, which is credited for publishing dBm numbers as reported by the phone has said that iPhone 4 is able to perform better and hang on to calls at much weaker signals. They also said that just measuring signal strength from the tower's output is not that meaningful because it isn't the only factor that affects real world performance. It doesn't show how well the tower receives the phone, nor the signal-to-noise ratio.



    In car brakes, stopping distance is the main performance metric that matters, but in cell phones, it's perhaps more useful to measure the frequency of call drops, and the frequency of being able to place and hold calls. Unfortunately, you give people this little bar graph and on iOS4, Apple's signal formulas were screwed up, and the next thing you know, Consumer Reports is screaming, "The sky is falling!" there must be a defect in Apple's design, and we know better cuz the bar graph goes from 5 bars to 1 bar! Never mind that the phone works in places that a 3GS would fail to place a call.



    So, when you say "Problem Solved?" which problem are you referring to? The problem that the iPhone 4 antenna performs better than the 3GS and Nexus One in more real world low signal situations? Or the perception problem caused by the miscalculated bar graph?
  • Reply 506 of 547
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by joseph_went_south View Post


    From the videos shown in Steve Jobs' presentation, the other phones will lose bars easily with a NORMAL grip. If ALL I have to do is move one single finger to avoid that issue from happening on the iPhone, then it seems to me that the competitors' phones de-tuning issues are WORSE. I can easily move one finger off the spot on the iPhone, not so easily grip the others in a manner different than what was shown.



    Put another way, it seems from the videos that to avoid the signal drop, you need a complete reorganization of your grip on the competitors' phones, while you may or may not just need to move a solitary finger to alleviate the issue on the iPhone.





    I totally agree. Having a specific spot to avoid attenuation is so much better than not knowing exactly how to.
  • Reply 507 of 547
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    You are right! There is just so much [potential] advantage to having the antenna outside the case. Once they get it right (and they will) the external antenna opens up possibilities for what you can cram inside-- and use the outside antenna to interface the outside world!



    The camera, A4 processor, iOS... are all good, but the iP4 breakthrough is the external antenna/frame-- the exoskeleton!



    So, all this insufferable crap means, that once again Apple has a 3-year lead on its competitors-- What? KimoSabe, me have death grip too? I never even left the reservation!



    Apologies in advance to Native Americans... it is a poor illustration!



    .



    I'll add that since Apple will have the patents on this design, you will see the competition further behind.
  • Reply 508 of 547
    asciiascii Posts: 5,936member
    Are these companies denying the facts Apple posted, or just blowing hot air?



    All phones can be death-gripped. The only reason iPhone 4 got picked on is because:



    1. It's easier to see the place to grip on the iPhone 4

    2. Gizmodo wanted revenge over the stolen prototype so they made a video about the iPhone 4's weak spot.
  • Reply 509 of 547
    radster360radster360 Posts: 547member
    This is what this all adds up to -



    Consumer Report - 0

    Media - 0

    RIM, Nokia, HTC, Samsung and all SmartPhone markers - 0

    iPhone 4 Customer - 1

    Apple - 1



    Excellent job by Steve - Apple was pushed into this by Media and when Steve came back with a solid comeback everyone is now complaining that he isn't playing fair! Everyone go back to what you were doing - The show is over! Move along!
  • Reply 510 of 547
    g3prog3pro Posts: 669member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by radster360 View Post


    This is what this all adds up to -



    Consumer Report - 0

    Media - 0

    RIM, Nokia, HTC, Samsung and all SmartPhone markers - 0

    iPhone 4 Customer - 1

    Apple - 1



    Excellent job by Steve - Apple was pushed into this by Media and when Steve came back with a solid comeback everyone is now complaining that he isn't playing fair! Everyone go back to what you were doing - The show is over! Move along!





    Not really. This is the international reaction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn-YesqzvNk
  • Reply 511 of 547
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,757member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


    Ha ha ha ha ha ha, man you are funny. All your posts here are just stuff pulled out of the air.



    There is a connection between quality and customer satisfaction (we're not even talking customer service here.) You can't have one without the other. Apple scores highest in customer satisfaction year after year, across the board. Everyone knows this.



    How do you account for your (obviously false) contention that Apple churns out low quality gear?



    You're a Windows/Android troll masquerading as a "concerned" Apple fan. There's a difference between a habitual contrarian and TROLL.
  • Reply 512 of 547
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,924member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post


    ... You're a Windows/Android troll masquerading as a "concerned" Apple fan. There's a difference between a habitual contrarian and TROLL.



    Sad, really. How empty must one's life be to make one turn to trolling?
  • Reply 513 of 547
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by capoeira4u View Post


    Yeah I agree. I've tried the deathgrip on BB Curve and my iPhone 3G but I couldn't manage to drop a signal bar. I even cupped the phone in between both my hands and squeezed the life out of it, but nothing happened. Either I haven't perfected my deathgrip technique or the force is not with me.



    Just as many Apple users don't experience a problem with the iPhone 4. So you can do one of three things:



    1. Say that since you don't experience a problem with your BB Curve that the problem doesn't exist on BB

    2. Say that since some people don't see the problem on the iPhone 4 that the problem doesn't exist

    3. Realize that not everyone sees the problem and even the ones who do don't see it all the time.







    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


    We are constantly told by people like you that Apple sells tonnes of expensive machines and all the other companies are selling cheap junk. If that is the case, why are the expensive machines at 17.4%? They are charging for quality, and not always producing it.



    What does that have to do with anything? You claimed that Apple quality is poor - yet the survey that you provided shows that it's right up there with the best -- and the methodology almost certainly overestimates the number of defects on Macs.



    Clearly, you can't back up your claim so you'll try to change it - as usual.
  • Reply 514 of 547
    bergermeisterbergermeister Posts: 6,784member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by g3pro View Post


    Not really. This is the international reaction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn-YesqzvNk



    One video is "the international reaction" ? I'm hearing stuff here in Japan that focuses more on why are American's so hasty to make such a fuss over something so small.
  • Reply 515 of 547
    First off, I am a strong supporter of Apple and I have owned an iPhone 4 since the day of its release. As I've navigated through all the news about the reception problem, the point I keep returning to is that I find it absolutely unfathomable that no one (including the 18 PhDs on staff to which Mr. Jobs alluded) recognized that exposing a bare metal antenna was risky. Those of us who grew up with 'rabbit ears' and the days of pull-up antennas on radios can clearly remember that touching the antenna would always change the characteristics of reception -- sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Having an exposed metal antenna wrap around the perimeter of the phone means that it will be touched by conductive human skin any time the phone is not in a case. And that means its reception characteristics will be significantly altered. An internal (not exposed) antenna is subject to a different problem. Rather than having its characteristics altered by conductive skin, it's ability to receive a signal is negatively impacted by the insulating characteristics of the phone's chassis and the human hand. The net effect of this, however, is much less dramatic than being touched directly by something conductive. It is also much easier to compensate for with the software's reception algorithm because it is predictable. The conductivity of the human hand, though, is not predictable. Moisture, size, salt content, etc. all vary conductivity.



    I suppose it's possible that an updated software algorithm can improve the stability of iPhone 4 reception, but ultimately, the only way to "fix" it is to insulate the bare metal antenna from the conductivity of the human hand. Again, I can't believe that this wasn't realized in development. Unless, of course, the designers were so smitten with the "cool" look of the stainless steel band.



    In either case, I think it is unfortunate that Apple didn't admit this mistake and not just dismiss it with a simple "if they want bumpers, we'll give them bumpers."
  • Reply 516 of 547
    firefly7475firefly7475 Posts: 1,502member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by g3pro View Post


    Not really. This is the international reaction: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn-YesqzvNk



    Laughed my ass off. I don't care who you are, this is funny!



    Subtitles... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-MdI...layer_embedded
  • Reply 517 of 547
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,924member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RollinRiver View Post


    ... In either case, I think it is unfortunate that Apple didn't admit this mistake and not just dismiss it with a simple "if they want bumpers, we'll give them bumpers."



    The flaw in your argument is that, without a case, the reception on the iP4 and its ability to hold on to a signal, in many cases., is better than other phones, which more or less undermines your conclusion that the antenna design is poor.
  • Reply 518 of 547
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Actually he's a Nokia user.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Quadra 610 View Post


    There is a connection between quality and customer satisfaction (we're not even talking customer service here.) You can't have one without the other. Apple scores highest in customer satisfaction year after year, across the board. Everyone knows this.



    How do you account for your (obviously false) contention that Apple churns out low quality gear?



    You're a Windows/Android troll masquerading as a "concerned" Apple fan. There's a difference between a habitual contrarian and TROLL.



  • Reply 519 of 547
    dick applebaumdick applebaum Posts: 12,527member
    .



    Can anyone provide a link to photos of the iP4 Antenna?



    I am particularly interested in identifying which of the 3 section of the antenna are used for which signals.



    TIA



    Dick
  • Reply 520 of 547
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    So you want to fill us in on the "conductiveness of human skin", what values are we talking here, is there much variation among the population, is there variation due to climatic variations?



    What is the precise effect on an exposed antenna?



    So why haven't more iPhone 4's been returned?



    Why do other phones exhibit the same behaviour when they don't have an exposed antenna?



    What is "significantly altered", do you have some precise values?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RollinRiver View Post


    First off, I am a strong supporter of Apple and I have owned an iPhone 4 since the day of its release. As I've navigated through all the news about the reception problem, the point I keep returning to is that I find it absolutely unfathomable that no one (including the 18 PhDs on staff to which Mr. Jobs alluded) recognized that exposing a bare metal antenna was risky. Those of us who grew up with 'rabbit ears' and the days of pull-up antennas on radios can clearly remember that touching the antenna would always change the characteristics of reception -- sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Having an exposed metal antenna wrap around the perimeter of the phone means that it will be touched by conductive human skin any time the phone is not in a case. And that means its reception characteristics will be significantly altered. An internal (not exposed) antenna is subject to a different problem. Rather than having its characteristics altered by conductive skin, it's ability to receive a signal is negatively impacted by the insulating characteristics of the phone's chassis and the human hand. The net effect of this, however, is much less dramatic than being touched directly by something conductive. It is also much easier to compensate for with the software's reception algorithm because it is predictable. The conductivity of the human hand, though, is not predictable. Moisture, size, salt content, etc. all vary conductivity.



    I suppose it's possible that an updated software algorithm can improve the stability of iPhone 4 reception, but ultimately, the only way to "fix" it is to insulate the bare metal antenna from the conductivity of the human hand. Again, I can't believe that this wasn't realized in development. Unless, of course, the designers were so smitten with the "cool" look of the stainless steel band.



    In either case, I think it is unfortunate that Apple didn't admit this mistake and not just dismiss it with a simple "if they want bumpers, we'll give them bumpers."



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