I disagree that it is ridiculous. I just think it is too early. I think eventually the truth will come out though. Already sources inside Apple are spinning this as blaming Papermaster for the antenna.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman
To read any kind of admission into Papermaster's leaving is ridiculous. Either he couldn't take the heat in the kitchen and decided to leave or else it wasn't hot enough for him - how can we know. By all means, I love speculation like the next guy but to deduce anything with certainty is foolish. I reckon it was his boyfriend that told him he spent too much time at the office and he had to make a choice. I mean, why not?
Put simply, the iPhone was a hugely botched product introduction for Apple on at least four fronts: launch-day logistical nightmares, antenna-gate, much-anticipated white model not ready, and production bottlenecks combined with poor demand forecasting. (The fact that the product is so far the largest seller for Apple is not very relevant. It should - and could - have been an even bigger seller.)
It was stunningly poor execution for a company that has been good at it in the past.
It is only fitting that the person in charge of the product take responsibility. Jobs at performance-oriented firms like Apple are not sinecures. I am glad that Apple is sending a clear signal that it will hold its managers accountable.
The fact that this guy has name recognition, at least with the geeks on Appleinsider, makes me think this was not "punishment" for the antenna.
Anyway, I don't think you can be this strident about the antenna yet. Tim Bajarin (spelling might be off, but he writes for pcmag.com) said that he talked to someone at another mobile phone company who said that the design was a real breakthrough and would probably be copied in the future.
What if the gap was on the bottom of the phone, instead of the side? I am willing to bet that Apple will probably stick with the design and tweak it as necessary in future revisions. But I don't think the design itself is nearly as bad as you make it out to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by davestall
I did not say that media cant influence people. I said that Apple could not dispute what the media was saying. If there were really no problem; it would have been very easy to dispute. In fact if there were no problem; there wouldn't have been the grass roots ground swell from users to report the problem.
Apple made a huge mistake in the phone design, they then made multiple mistakes addressing it. They literally are shipping free band-aids to "fix it". I suspect a lot more than one person will be fired. This guy has name recognition; the engineers and product managers nobody will ever hear about.
So, is this saying that the iPhone 4 antenna IS flawed? Or is this just a firing due to many reasons, not just this one?
I don't want to buy my first iPhone if it is indeed flawed and the next version is completely changed, and mine is worth nothing, and does indeed not work as it should.
Or, as some have said, is this STILL overblown and the antenna works as well or better than many of the other top smartphones, and Papermaster's firing has nothing to do with me having a great phone when I get it in a couple of months?
I'd really like to know. I'm so on the fence about this whole iPhone antenna thing. I can't afford to get into a 3 year contract with a flawed phone. Literally, can't afford it. $$$
Really instead of reading all the negative crap on the net learn to digest the facts yourself. IPhone4 isn't flawed any more than any other man made device.
Besides the big issue right now is iOS the software or operating system. If you really want something that performs well wait for version 4.1.
Seriously! First reply states it's because of the iPhone 4 antenna, 2nd reply states that Apple is wrong for putting all the blame on Papermaster for "Antennagate".
Personally, I think if an engineer who loses an iPhone 4 doesn't get fired that Papermaster didn't get fired for helping make Apple's best phone, especially after the lengths Apple went to get him. The truth is probably dull so it probably won't ever be considered on Internet forums.
HP has a CEO position open.
edit: Doh! Pipped by cvaldes1831.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1st
He only started on 2009, the antenna must already in the making (product test need at least 3 month to 6 month, plus MFG launch to market and design phase), not enough time... Need at least 18-20 month to be responsible. Well, interesting for everybody to just easily find the link.. I don't believe it...
We don't know how long Apple was developing the antenna. There are many parts to the iPhone that could have been in development for two years that may not include the antenna such as the A4.
From Daring Fireball:
Quote:
From what I’ve heard, it’s clear he was sacked. Papermaster was a conspicuous absence at the Antennagate press conference. Inside Apple, he’s “the guy responsible for the antenna” — that’s a quote from a source back on July 23. (Another quote from the same source: “Apparently the antenna guys used to have a big chip on their shoulder. No more.”)
Apparently someone at Apple thought that the iPhone's antenna issue was enough of a reason to fire Papermaster.
What I am looking at is apple spending a lot of money to ship free rubberbands. A lot of people are taking advantage. Why? They like an ugly rubberband on their phone? No; to fix a design flaw. And lets not forget about Steve Jobs holding a press conference to admit the flaw. Ignore his lame attempt to claim other phones have the same problem. Evey example he gave is easily disputed with real evidence. Apple however cannot dispute the problem because it is a real problem. An Embarrassing one.
Yes; apple lemmings are still buying the flawed product. They dont care about having to wear a rubber band. Thats OK with me; although I think its pretty funny.
Apple's press conference wasn't really about the antenna. It was about the media response. There is no evidence of higher returns or lower sales. Joe Consumer doesn't read this site; they are 99.9% of the people buying the handsets. The cost of the rubberband deployment is negligible relative to their overall budget. Heck, they might end up spending more cash on the Mac mini pricing snafu in South Korea.
The proximity sensor issue is real. Apple acknowledges that one, says a fix is coming Real Soon Now(TM).
Again, there is no evidence that the media's coverage of this antenna issue had any significant impact on their business.
Apple's press conference was for show. Apple decided to dance with the ugly girl for one song. They're not getting married next week.
Either he couldn't take the heat in the kitchen and decided to leave or else it wasn't hot enough for him - how can we know.
Then we should forever change the phrase " if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen" to "if you can't take the attenuation, get out of the anechoic chamber".
Quote:
By all means, I love speculation like the next guy but to deduce anything with certainty is foolish. I reckon it was his boyfriend that told him he spent too much time at the office and he had to make a choice. I mean, why not?
I just heard from a reliable source Papermaster quit because of the Prop 8 overturn andecided to move from CA to UT. This is fun, I can see why the trolls like to make shit up.
PS: Screw my self-imposed banning on the topic. If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em… or at least entertain yourself at their expense.
Me think this thread shows, once again, the bitterness and frustration of IP4 haters when Apple suppress Antennagate by just a press release. They will continue to be bitter and unhappy until Apple recall the phone.
Head of HP Palm Division and Rubinstein will be CEO of HP.
Putting Rubinstein in charge as CEO would be a disaster. He's a hardware man, through and through. Put him in charge of reinvigorating the HP Printing, Server and Embedded Devices Divisions.
Put Papermaster under one of them and go find a CEO who can run a business and has vision. Rubinstein is not CEO material.
Me think this thread shows, once again, the bitterness and frustration of IP4 haters when Apple suppress Antennagate by just a press release. They will continue to be bitter and unhappy until Apple recall the phone.
Poor them. My Condolences.
Actually I just got an iPhone 4 and have no problems though I put Invisible shield on everything but the screen the moment I got it. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem for others and if they (including myself) see it as an issue and you should be able to beat them on logic and not name calling if you're right.
After all that effort to recruit him from IBM, he turned out to be not that good? Oh well, no way to have known. Anyway it probably makes sense to have a single hardware division, in that the iDevices are becoming more and more similar to full computers.
so few complained that Jobs had to give a pep talk regarding the matter?
wise up.
Ha! Are you seriously still in the dark about this? Maybe it's flame bait, but I'll bite A bug in the iOS4 made the signal bars very unevenly distributed across the range (Anandtech found that the entire spread from 1 to 5 bars covered only -18dBm), so if you were close to -90dBm (bottom of the 5-bar display), a death grip would make it appear as if you lost all your signal, when in fact, you might have only dropped -18dBm. That was the kindling. People started saying OMG, the phone is defective! Death grip videos started to appear. That was fuel for the fire. The bloggosphere started buzzing about it. Everyone loves negative news, controversy, drama. It's a big feedback chamber, bloggers repeating the story for weeks. When the noise got loud enough, the mainstream media picked it up as "news". Then Consumer Reports flip-flopped, and that became its own story...
So Apple responded. The July 16 press conference was not a "pep talk" for angry iPhone 4 owners. It was to address the media, which had by then, snowballed their thinly-researched, fact-starved stories into "Antenna-gate".
Actually I just got an iPhone 4 and have no problems though I put Invisible shield on everything but the screen the moment I got it.
That's good for you. No question though there are a lot of non-owners who jump on your bandwagon. Me? I'll test it out at the store and if it's not affected then that's it for me. No need to beat the dead horse times and times again.
you mean like a Apple Bumper fixed the non-problem?
The problem was fixed by patching iOS4 to display a more accurate (linear) signal display. It was previously misleading, resulting in a widespread belief in some kind of design flaw with the antenna. You could call it a non-problem
Ha! Are you seriously still in the dark about this? Maybe it's flame bait, but I'll bite A bug in the iOS4 made the signal bars very unevenly distributed across the range (Anandtech found that the entire spread from 1 to 5 bars covered only -18dBm), so if you were close to -90dBm (bottom of the 5-bar display), a death grip would make it appear as if you lost all your signal, when in fact, you might have only dropped −18dBm.
While I agree with you overall and going from the minimum 5 bar (-90 dB) to the start of 1 bar (-108 dB) is a difference of 18 dB, the method they used was not a bug. It was intentional and deliberate.
Since the bars only real info is if you have a connection to a cell tower, and that more bars represent better signal strength than a less bars and vice versa, but these do not carry over to other cellular devices or carriers as there is no standardization for what the bars actually represent in decibels it was and is common to make a device seem like it was getting a better signal than one might actually expect.
AnandTech also showed that Android is nearly as absurd and the difference from going from maximum bars to one bars is only a change of 14 dB, 4 less than iOS 4.0’s change from maximum bars to one bars. Even with the change 5 bars ends at 76 dB, more than ⅓ of what it can represent. It’s all nonsense and I wish the bars would just go away in favour of a more useful system or have the dB to bar levels mandated.
It seems that all of Apple's actions following the antenna outcry were consistent with their knowledge of a true hardware issue: 1. Admitting to faulty signal-strength indication algorithm as a sidetracking maneuver; 2. Calling in an emergency press-conference; 3. Appeasing customers with freebies; 4. Commencing a denigration campaign against their competitors; 5. Firing the person in charge of the antenna design.
I'd use Occam's razor.
I think I spot the flaw in this argument: all of it
... t?s all nonsense and I wish the bars would just go away in favour of a more useful system or have the dB to bar levels mandated.
You say this a lot, but I don't' think you've ever made a case for what a more useful alternative might be, or why in fact the bars bother you so much.
If a handset has five bars it will always be able to make a call, if it has less than one it will never be able to make a call. The way the bars are calculated now, they reflect an a fairly simple scale between those two points. I don't get the controversy. Even if I agree with what you are arguing in theory, in practice, I don't think I've ever seen any one look at their phone and say "damn these bars, I just don't know what they mean." I think most people find them helpful indicators of the drop-off in signal.
The only alternative ever raised to the bar display is just to show the db numbers but this is clearly a big step backwards for the average phone user. It's a scale of negative numbers for a start, and the user has to memorise arbitrary start and end numbers and visualise the scale in between. How could that ever be more helpful for the end user? it's beyond a great deal of the publics capabilities.
For those that like the numbers, it would be nice if they were added back in as a preference, but the current bar display is always going to be far more useful to the largest number of people.
You say this a lot, but I don't' think you've ever made a case for what a more useful alternative might be, or why in fact the bars bother you so much.
I’ve stated it on many occasions on this forum and elsewhere. It’s a bother because it’s meaningless as this change and data has clearly shown. It serves no useful purpose as stated.
Quote:
If a handset has five bars it will always be able to make a call, if it has less than one it will never be able to make a call..
Actually, phones can still make calls with no bars showing, it’s when it says NO SERVICE that there is no service. But this drives home point, it’s a yes/no situation. The methods I’ve suggested is to…
Simply show the best connection available. For example: No Service, Voice, GPRS (or Slow 2G), EDGE (or Fast 2G), 3G (or HSDPA), etc.
Have regulation bodies define the number of bars, the dB range between bars, and the time between bars changing. The last may seem inconsequential but I’ve noticed that phones are quicker to show when there is more signal strength than they are to show that the signal strength has dropped. This could be another tactic to make the phone seem like it’s better than its competitors.
I don’t expect either of these to actually be put in place, but they would offer some real data and this whole “I can make it drop from having full signal to no signal" nonsense from happening the way it did. Apple didn’t change the algorithm because it was a bug, they changed it so you can’t make such a dramatic drop. It’s just the other end of the same market engine.
Comments
To read any kind of admission into Papermaster's leaving is ridiculous. Either he couldn't take the heat in the kitchen and decided to leave or else it wasn't hot enough for him - how can we know. By all means, I love speculation like the next guy but to deduce anything with certainty is foolish. I reckon it was his boyfriend that told him he spent too much time at the office and he had to make a choice. I mean, why not?
It was stunningly poor execution for a company that has been good at it in the past.
It is only fitting that the person in charge of the product take responsibility. Jobs at performance-oriented firms like Apple are not sinecures. I am glad that Apple is sending a clear signal that it will hold its managers accountable.
Anyway, I don't think you can be this strident about the antenna yet. Tim Bajarin (spelling might be off, but he writes for pcmag.com) said that he talked to someone at another mobile phone company who said that the design was a real breakthrough and would probably be copied in the future.
What if the gap was on the bottom of the phone, instead of the side? I am willing to bet that Apple will probably stick with the design and tweak it as necessary in future revisions. But I don't think the design itself is nearly as bad as you make it out to be.
I did not say that media cant influence people. I said that Apple could not dispute what the media was saying. If there were really no problem; it would have been very easy to dispute. In fact if there were no problem; there wouldn't have been the grass roots ground swell from users to report the problem.
Apple made a huge mistake in the phone design, they then made multiple mistakes addressing it. They literally are shipping free band-aids to "fix it". I suspect a lot more than one person will be fired. This guy has name recognition; the engineers and product managers nobody will ever hear about.
So, is this saying that the iPhone 4 antenna IS flawed? Or is this just a firing due to many reasons, not just this one?
I don't want to buy my first iPhone if it is indeed flawed and the next version is completely changed, and mine is worth nothing, and does indeed not work as it should.
Or, as some have said, is this STILL overblown and the antenna works as well or better than many of the other top smartphones, and Papermaster's firing has nothing to do with me having a great phone when I get it in a couple of months?
I'd really like to know. I'm so on the fence about this whole iPhone antenna thing. I can't afford to get into a 3 year contract with a flawed phone. Literally, can't afford it. $$$
Really instead of reading all the negative crap on the net learn to digest the facts yourself. IPhone4 isn't flawed any more than any other man made device.
Besides the big issue right now is iOS the software or operating system. If you really want something that performs well wait for version 4.1.
Dave
Seriously! First reply states it's because of the iPhone 4 antenna, 2nd reply states that Apple is wrong for putting all the blame on Papermaster for "Antennagate".
Personally, I think if an engineer who loses an iPhone 4 doesn't get fired that Papermaster didn't get fired for helping make Apple's best phone, especially after the lengths Apple went to get him. The truth is probably dull so it probably won't ever be considered on Internet forums.
HP has a CEO position open.
edit: Doh! Pipped by cvaldes1831.
He only started on 2009, the antenna must already in the making (product test need at least 3 month to 6 month, plus MFG launch to market and design phase), not enough time... Need at least 18-20 month to be responsible. Well, interesting for everybody to just easily find the link.. I don't believe it...
We don't know how long Apple was developing the antenna. There are many parts to the iPhone that could have been in development for two years that may not include the antenna such as the A4.
From Daring Fireball:
From what I’ve heard, it’s clear he was sacked. Papermaster was a conspicuous absence at the Antennagate press conference. Inside Apple, he’s “the guy responsible for the antenna” — that’s a quote from a source back on July 23. (Another quote from the same source: “Apparently the antenna guys used to have a big chip on their shoulder. No more.”)
Apparently someone at Apple thought that the iPhone's antenna issue was enough of a reason to fire Papermaster.
What I am looking at is apple spending a lot of money to ship free rubberbands. A lot of people are taking advantage. Why? They like an ugly rubberband on their phone? No; to fix a design flaw. And lets not forget about Steve Jobs holding a press conference to admit the flaw. Ignore his lame attempt to claim other phones have the same problem. Evey example he gave is easily disputed with real evidence. Apple however cannot dispute the problem because it is a real problem. An Embarrassing one.
Yes; apple lemmings are still buying the flawed product. They dont care about having to wear a rubber band. Thats OK with me; although I think its pretty funny.
Apple's press conference wasn't really about the antenna. It was about the media response. There is no evidence of higher returns or lower sales. Joe Consumer doesn't read this site; they are 99.9% of the people buying the handsets. The cost of the rubberband deployment is negligible relative to their overall budget. Heck, they might end up spending more cash on the Mac mini pricing snafu in South Korea.
The proximity sensor issue is real. Apple acknowledges that one, says a fix is coming Real Soon Now(TM).
Again, there is no evidence that the media's coverage of this antenna issue had any significant impact on their business.
Apple's press conference was for show. Apple decided to dance with the ugly girl for one song. They're not getting married next week.
Either he couldn't take the heat in the kitchen and decided to leave or else it wasn't hot enough for him - how can we know.
Then we should forever change the phrase " if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen" to "if you can't take the attenuation, get out of the anechoic chamber".
By all means, I love speculation like the next guy but to deduce anything with certainty is foolish. I reckon it was his boyfriend that told him he spent too much time at the office and he had to make a choice. I mean, why not?
I just heard from a reliable source Papermaster quit because of the Prop 8 overturn andecided to move from CA to UT. This is fun, I can see why the trolls like to make shit up.
PS: Screw my self-imposed banning on the topic. If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em… or at least entertain yourself at their expense.
Poor them. My Condolences.
I was going to say exactly the same thing
Head of HP Palm Division and Rubinstein will be CEO of HP.
Putting Rubinstein in charge as CEO would be a disaster. He's a hardware man, through and through. Put him in charge of reinvigorating the HP Printing, Server and Embedded Devices Divisions.
Put Papermaster under one of them and go find a CEO who can run a business and has vision. Rubinstein is not CEO material.
Me think this thread shows, once again, the bitterness and frustration of IP4 haters when Apple suppress Antennagate by just a press release. They will continue to be bitter and unhappy until Apple recall the phone.
Poor them. My Condolences.
Actually I just got an iPhone 4 and have no problems though I put Invisible shield on everything but the screen the moment I got it. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem for others and if they (including myself) see it as an issue and you should be able to beat them on logic and not name calling if you're right.
hey dummy,
so few complained that Jobs had to give a pep talk regarding the matter?
wise up.
Ha! Are you seriously still in the dark about this? Maybe it's flame bait, but I'll bite
So Apple responded. The July 16 press conference was not a "pep talk" for angry iPhone 4 owners. It was to address the media, which had by then, snowballed their thinly-researched, fact-starved stories into "Antenna-gate".
Wise up.
Actually I just got an iPhone 4 and have no problems though I put Invisible shield on everything but the screen the moment I got it.
That's good for you. No question though there are a lot of non-owners who jump on your bandwagon. Me? I'll test it out at the store and if it's not affected then that's it for me. No need to beat the dead horse times and times again.
If it's affected then I simply buy another phone.
you mean like a Apple Bumper fixed the non-problem?
The problem was fixed by patching iOS4 to display a more accurate (linear) signal display. It was previously misleading, resulting in a widespread belief in some kind of design flaw with the antenna. You could call it a non-problem
Ha! Are you seriously still in the dark about this? Maybe it's flame bait, but I'll bite
While I agree with you overall and going from the minimum 5 bar (-90 dB) to the start of 1 bar (-108 dB) is a difference of 18 dB, the method they used was not a bug. It was intentional and deliberate.
Since the bars only real info is if you have a connection to a cell tower, and that more bars represent better signal strength than a less bars and vice versa, but these do not carry over to other cellular devices or carriers as there is no standardization for what the bars actually represent in decibels it was and is common to make a device seem like it was getting a better signal than one might actually expect.
AnandTech also showed that Android is nearly as absurd and the difference from going from maximum bars to one bars is only a change of 14 dB, 4 less than iOS 4.0’s change from maximum bars to one bars. Even with the change 5 bars ends at 76 dB, more than ⅓ of what it can represent. It’s all nonsense and I wish the bars would just go away in favour of a more useful system or have the dB to bar levels mandated.
It seems that all of Apple's actions following the antenna outcry were consistent with their knowledge of a true hardware issue: 1. Admitting to faulty signal-strength indication algorithm as a sidetracking maneuver; 2. Calling in an emergency press-conference; 3. Appeasing customers with freebies; 4. Commencing a denigration campaign against their competitors; 5. Firing the person in charge of the antenna design.
I'd use Occam's razor.
I think I spot the flaw in this argument: all of it
Head of HP Palm Division and Rubinstein will be CEO of HP.
You are insane.
Rubinstein proved at Palm that he is not CEO material.
... t?s all nonsense and I wish the bars would just go away in favour of a more useful system or have the dB to bar levels mandated.
You say this a lot, but I don't' think you've ever made a case for what a more useful alternative might be, or why in fact the bars bother you so much.
If a handset has five bars it will always be able to make a call, if it has less than one it will never be able to make a call. The way the bars are calculated now, they reflect an a fairly simple scale between those two points. I don't get the controversy. Even if I agree with what you are arguing in theory, in practice, I don't think I've ever seen any one look at their phone and say "damn these bars, I just don't know what they mean." I think most people find them helpful indicators of the drop-off in signal.
The only alternative ever raised to the bar display is just to show the db numbers but this is clearly a big step backwards for the average phone user. It's a scale of negative numbers for a start, and the user has to memorise arbitrary start and end numbers and visualise the scale in between. How could that ever be more helpful for the end user? it's beyond a great deal of the publics capabilities.
For those that like the numbers, it would be nice if they were added back in as a preference, but the current bar display is always going to be far more useful to the largest number of people.
IPHONE 5 will be better than ever.
You say this a lot, but I don't' think you've ever made a case for what a more useful alternative might be, or why in fact the bars bother you so much.
I’ve stated it on many occasions on this forum and elsewhere. It’s a bother because it’s meaningless as this change and data has clearly shown. It serves no useful purpose as stated.
If a handset has five bars it will always be able to make a call, if it has less than one it will never be able to make a call..
Actually, phones can still make calls with no bars showing, it’s when it says NO SERVICE that there is no service. But this drives home point, it’s a yes/no situation. The methods I’ve suggested is to…
- Simply show the best connection available. For example: No Service, Voice, GPRS (or Slow 2G), EDGE (or Fast 2G), 3G (or HSDPA), etc.
- Have regulation bodies define the number of bars, the dB range between bars, and the time between bars changing. The last may seem inconsequential but I’ve noticed that phones are quicker to show when there is more signal strength than they are to show that the signal strength has dropped. This could be another tactic to make the phone seem like it’s better than its competitors.
I don’t expect either of these to actually be put in place, but they would offer some real data and this whole “I can make it drop from having full signal to no signal" nonsense from happening the way it did. Apple didn’t change the algorithm because it was a bug, they changed it so you can’t make such a dramatic drop. It’s just the other end of the same market engine.