European Union joins FTC investigation into Apple's opposition of Flash

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  • Reply 61 of 238
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,581member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post


    Blanket statements, great! Just what we need, another politician saying anything to make the uninformed feel informed and scare them to your side of the argument. I suppose you support the poor getting poorer while the rich get richer, the dumb getting dumber while the smart get smarter (about controlling the dumb).



    We need regulation to curb unlimited power and protect those with the least power.



    This issue has absolutely nothing to do with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, nor with protecting the powerless. Please save those arguments for cases where they actually apply, otherwise, no one will take you seriously when they really should.
  • Reply 62 of 238
    It will be interesting to see how the FTC actually frames the issue. The situation reminds me of Oprah vs the Beef Industry. The argument was that Winfrey's influence was so great that the industry suffered devastating financial losses simply as a result of her publicly taking a stance against eating beef.
  • Reply 63 of 238
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post


    Blanket statements, great! Just what we need, another politician saying anything to make the uninformed feel informed and scare them to your side of the argument. I suppose you support the poor getting poorer while the rich get richer, the dumb getting dumber while the smart get smarter (about controlling the dumb).



    We need regulation to curb unlimited power and protect those with the least power.



    I agree with you but this does not fall there under.

    This is just a buyer beware. If you want flash-which runs poorly on pcs and macs and even poorer on the Android. Don't buy an iphone. Now if you want to force the public - the whole public to buy an iphone only - well maybe just maybe the argument might gain a little credibility but still not much.
  • Reply 64 of 238
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,581member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post


    If you want to limit it to just the recent months, then sure, Android has slowed a bit. But that would be in error to say that just because it had a less steep curve for a few months that it's overall momentum is slowing.



    I'm talking long-term here, so overall is what I'm looking at and it doesn't seem to be decreasing.



    Well, given that it is slowing, based on the curve, which is based on the numbers, you certainly can't argue that it isn't... now... slowing.
  • Reply 65 of 238
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,581member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post


    Actually, that's exactly what Apple did. There really can be no argument otherwise. They did it to prevent porting of apps (vs rewriting them in xcode). Period. End of discussion.



    In fact, they are not preventing porting. What they are doing is making it more difficult to do crapware cross-compiles to iOS. But, nothing Apple has done prevents developers from cross compiling or porting their software to other platforms, or porting to iOS. What they can't now do is simply write it to a meta-platform and recompile for various platforms. including iOS, but absolutely nothing is stopping them from porting like real programmers do.
  • Reply 66 of 238
    ssquirrelssquirrel Posts: 1,196member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    Actually, if you look at charts of Androids growth, they already show its momentum slowing, with it's growth curve significantly less steep in recent months.



    Growth charts flatten naturally as you accumulate more of an installed base. If you have 10 and add 100 to it, that's a greater % increase than if you have 1 million and gain another million. It's a much larger number, but a smaller percentage increase.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    In fact, they are not preventing porting. What they are doing is making it more difficult to do crapware cross-compiles to iOS. But, nothing Apple has done prevents developers from cross compiling or porting their software to other platforms, or porting to iOS. What they can't now do is simply write it to a meta-platform and recompile for various platforms. including iOS, but absolutely nothing is stopping them from porting like real programmers do.



    Especially since writing code for the iOS in Objective-C isn't required, but it is certainly one of the few languages that are allowed. C, C++ and Obj-C are the allowed languages for apps. The C and C++ portions should be able to port right over.
  • Reply 67 of 238
    quinneyquinney Posts: 2,526member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    Not only are these apps not wanted, they aren't needed and don't bring anything of value. Worse yet, they limit the advancement of the platform, unless Apple is willing to regularly break them all by just ignoring backwards compatibility for the crap that would result, a path that I would advise them to take, frequently, if they were forced to allow this junk.



    I like this idea. In the meantime, I wonder if the EU would mind if Apple just created a special category in the App Store for cross-compiled shovelware apps. That way, users could be forewarned that the apps might not continue working through system updates.
  • Reply 68 of 238
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    You see, this is exactly the sort of crappy port mentality that Apple doesn't want screwing up it's platform, with apps that break every time there's a system update until the producers of the porting tool get around to updating it and lazy developers getting around to updating their app. Meanwhile, Apple is faced with the dilemma of holding back platform development, or pissing off customers because they sold them crapware to begin with.



    I'm sorry but doesn't everyone have to update their apps everytime Apple updates their platform. Hell, I'm still waiting for some of the NATIVE apps I bought to get background push notifications, or even quick app switching! Your argument is moot. There are lazy devs on both sides of the fence. If I ported an app and it broke after an Apple update, I'd lose money if I didn't fix it! It would be in my best interest to patch it so I could make money again. Yet there are devs out there now playing by Apple's rules that are not updating their apps for full functionality utilization. Apple's reasoning is flawed.



    I dislike this "lazy" argument too. A dev has to write it in some language or another in the first place for it to exist. The only lazy dev is the one that doesn't write an app in the first place. Again, time is money. If I had to spend my precious resources rewriting everything myself, or choose a less expensive, faster option to get my product to market, I think everyone would do it. In either scenario, testing is required for operability.
  • Reply 69 of 238
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post


    This isn't about forcing Apple to run Flash on the iPhone... the investigation is ONLY about Apple banning software such as Flash from converting code to iPhone language-friendly apps. Even I see a problem with that. This doesn't hurt just Adobe. It hurts anyone out there that might have been trying to create a business around app portability between various app storefronts. And that in turn hurts app developers with limited resources attempting to port their apps to broader markets. This is where I see the harm. If the app code is written in Apple's accepted languages, it should be allowed regardless of being ported from another language. If the app is buggy or harmful, reject it as any other natively written app..



    OFT.

    This is what the investigation is about. Apple blocking any apps not developed with their tools. That does hinder competition - competition in ways to develop apps. has Apple overstepped their bounds? I'm not sure, but that's why there is an investigation going on.
  • Reply 70 of 238
    sendmesendme Posts: 567member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post


    . And the consumer will decide the success or failure of an app based on quality.





    But you misunderstand the real value of our App Store - it is curated.



    Apple only sells good software there, and they shouldn't be forced to sell software that they know is a failure waiting to happen. IMO, Apple should be encouraged in their efforts to sell only the finest software in the App Store. Forcing them to carry crappy products is just plain wrong. There is nothing illegal about curating a retail store. Everbody sells just what they want to sell. It is like telling GNC that they have to sell chocolate cake and ice cream and pork lard.



    Imagine that! "We're the FTC. You must sell lard in your health food store in order to help out your competitors". Sorry, but that makes no sense.
  • Reply 71 of 238
    cubertcubert Posts: 728member
    "whether Apple's business practices harm competition."



    OK. I really want to hear the argument about how Apple excluding Flash from their iOS platform harms other mobile platforms. Sorry, can't even make a stretch.
  • Reply 72 of 238
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by quinney View Post


    I like this idea. In the meantime, I wonder if the EU would mind if Apple just created a special category in the App Store for cross-compiled shovelware apps. That way, users could be forewarned that the apps might not continue working through system updates.





    The only people who care where their app came from is Apple. End users don't care, programmers don't care, just Apple. Any app can break with a system update. All apps submitted to the app store are submitted by registered iPhone developers who have access to the latest betas to test their apps. If the developer does not update their app to be compatible then they are the irresponsible ones. But if Apple were to keep moving the goal posts, they would break a lot of stuff including the law.
  • Reply 73 of 238
    sendmesendme Posts: 567member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post




    Android 2.2 devices - which probably constitute about 0.1% of the smartphone market.







    I think that you may be overestimating things a bit. There are hardly any Android phones, and of those, hardly any of those run 2.2. You can't even upgrade on the vast majority of Android phones, which are crippled with version 1.5 or 1.6, never able to be updated.



    They still sell these! BOGO and all! People think they are buying a good phone, but then, too late, they discover their marvelous DROID is completely obsolete.



    So when they claim that Android is selling like hotcakes in July, what they mean is that obsolete garbage is being given away for free to unsuspecting victims. Google should be ashamed of itself.
  • Reply 74 of 238
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    This issue has absolutely nothing to do with the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, nor with protecting the powerless. Please save those arguments for cases where they actually apply, otherwise, no one will take you seriously when they really should.



    And if the commentor I quoted had attached his blanket statement to the discussion at hand, I might have responded with a more pointed response. But it was a blanket statement baselessly accusing the EU of wasting others' money, when they are in the business of limiting power and protecting those with less resources.
  • Reply 75 of 238
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,581member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SSquirrel View Post


    Growth charts flatten naturally as you accumulate more of an installed base. If you have 10 and add 100 to it, that's a greater % increase than if you have 1 million and gain another million. It's a much larger number, but a smaller percentage increase.



    True, but slowing is still slowing.
  • Reply 76 of 238
    sendmesendme Posts: 567member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    Flash is particularly problematic because a) it's a resource hog and b) because Flash promotes sloppy, crappy development to begin with.



    The other problem with Flash is that it is proprietary. Apple uses only open standards, which is why it insists on Objective-C.
  • Reply 77 of 238
    chris_cachris_ca Posts: 2,543member
    This is all a bunch of crap.

    Now governments are going to try to force companies to use/support products from other companies?
  • Reply 78 of 238
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,581member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post


    I'm sorry but doesn't everyone have to update their apps everytime Apple updates their platform. Hell, I'm still waiting for some of the NATIVE apps I bought to get background push notifications, or even quick app switching! Your argument is moot. There are lazy devs on both sides of the fence. If I ported an app and it broke after an Apple update, I'd lose money if I didn't fix it! It would be in my best interest to patch it so I could make money again. Yet there are devs out there now playing by Apple's rules that are not updating their apps for full functionality utilization. Apple's reasoning is flawed.



    I dislike this "lazy" argument too. A dev has to write it in some language or another in the first place for it to exist. The only lazy dev is the one that doesn't write an app in the first place. Again, time is money. If I had to spend my precious resources rewriting everything myself, or choose a less expensive, faster option to get my product to market, I think everyone would do it. In either scenario, testing is required for operability.



    Well, yes, clearly you aren't interested in the quality of your work, but you are exactly the sort of developer consumers should be protected from. And, no, everyone does not have to update their app every time Apple updates iOS. But, if they do, they are responsible, and they can't fall back on lazy ass excuses like, "Yeah, I know the app you bought doesn't work but I can't do anything about it because the Crapware cross-compiler hasn't been updated yet and they are busy working on something else right now, so you are just shit out of luck."
  • Reply 79 of 238
    zoetmbzoetmb Posts: 2,469member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SendMe View Post


    It is true that Apple is in a distant third place in the smartphone world. So I doubt that the FTC will charge them with having a monopoly in the smartphone world. Indeed, there is evidence that Apple is losing market share to Android now (it can't last - how could anybody prefer Android?).



    But in the meantime, you are entirely correct. The FTC is tilting at windmills, going after the third-place horse when others are rounding the stretch.



    While I agree that these investigations are absurd, it's probably not about monopolies - it's probably more about "restraint of trade" or "unfair competition." I think these investigations are happening because both the FTC and the EU don't really understand the technologies. They probably think Flash is like a browser that Apple is keeping off their machines. In any case, by the time either the FTC or the EU came to any decisions, the technology will have long since changed and the point will be moot. I mean, how can you argue with, "we'll permit it when it works." Besides, Apple is certainly not obligated to support every technology out there.
  • Reply 80 of 238
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    In an ideal world it could, but, in this case, they will have to make it clear that banning crapware ports (they'll come up with a PC phrase) is good for consumers and for iOS developers, while at the same time it allows them to improve their platform at a more rapid pace, again benefitting both of these groups. It's good for consumers because it filters out substandard apps that will very likely not work properly after future system updates, and it's good for developers because it creates a level playing field for them to compete on, and everyone benefits from the advancement of the platform with new technologies: Apple, consumers, developers, and copy-cats.



    In an ideal world, nobody uses that word to describe anything. Might force people to think in terms of substance rather than responding with gut reactions that may make them feel superior, but really don't have any other meaning. Frankly I'm hearing a lot of the latter in this debate.



    I don't think anyone is arguing that Apple has to accept any application on their platform. What they may have to do however is articulate performance standards to which apps will be held, rather than an outright ban on cross-compiled apps. I believe Apple's logic in banning all cross-compiled apps is going be tested, particularly by the EU, and if they don't have a substantial technical argument in response (of which "they are mostly crap" is not one), I hope they have a Plan B in reserve.
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