The willful ignorance about statistical sampling techniques - despite it being clarified - is truly pathetic. Stunning even. Some of you need to get at least a high school level of education.
Apple has until January to get the iPhone on T-mobile before I just give up and get an Android phone with them. I really don't want to switch to AT&T and I'm still waiting to get my first smart phone.
You should go buy an iPhone 3G/3GS, unlock it and put it on Tmobile now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadash
Count me in this group. Enjoying by 3G on T-Mobile until January.
Tmobile's rates make the slightly more limited network quite tolerable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadash
AT&T's network was bad in 2007 - when (comparatively) few iPhones were on it. The Droids have been selling hand over fist on Verizon and no one that I am aware of has complained about it. And Droid users gobble up even more data than iPhone users.
So good luck bringing down the network. And since you'll be on Verizon, enjoy use of your phone in places that you could only dream about with AT&T.
At least in So Cal, this is completely true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42
I'm happy with AT&T and have no intention of switching - and no surprise that this article validates that the overwhelming majority are happy with AT&T. The vocal techies tend to be the most who agitate - if the average person can get functionality, they are typically happy. They aren't interested in enabling the service menu and arguing who has less db of loss....
I also remember before Verizon had any real competition how big of jerks they were. I'm not surprised that they were colluding with google to limit choice - what a shocker Have fun with your locked down and un-even Internet on Verizon wireless.
The other point that is now obvious is if/when Verizon gets the iPhone, Android is going to be seriously stunted.
One can hope this is true but it really is starting to feel a bit like Apple is trying to shut the barn door after the horses have left. Part of me is wondering if this is why Apple has been stuck around $250-265 for what seems to be forever. Clearly their forward growth and current profits dictate a higher price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso
If 1/3 of the ATT customers all bailed and went to Verizon, then ATT service would rock; and I'd still be the one with a "world phone".
I'm pretty sure this new chip will do both networks. Several Blackberries are both CDMA and GSM worldphones. Apple might even call it something crazy like the iPhone 4G, bump the A4 in it to a full 1 ghz (instead of the estimated 750-800 mhz now) and it might be LTE as well.
51% of Verizon customers! isn't Verizon the larger carrier in US? that is a surprisingly large number, especially after reading "Why the Verizon iPhone is already too late" on msnbc. Did anyone read that article? the writer must be a little bit confused if he thinks this number is anything close to the truth.
51% of Verizon customers! isn't Verizon the larger carrier in US? that is a surprisingly large number, especially after reading "Why the Verizon iPhone is already too late" on msnbc. Did anyone read that article? the writer must be a little bit confused if he thinks this number is anything close to the truth.
After reading forums and blogs about Apple for the last decade it's clear to me that the truth is nowhere to be found. Everybody spins the data to support their fanboy or hater bias. This survey is a pure example conflicting data that can be spun anyway you like. if you are an at&t hater you can rag on that tidbit. If you are an Android hater you can spin the part about existing Verizon customers waiting for the iPhone. The fans of either can spin this survey their way too.
The only thing that matters, in my opinion, is that Apple's sales continue to rise and profits soar even in the face of the Android 'surge'. If that's not an indicator of success I don't know what is but that fact can be spun too can't it.
Bottom line, it's all completely useless bullshit.
Since 3G doesn't work on T-Mobile how's the Edge speed doing? How do you watch a movie over that Edge netork?
First I store most movies on my iPhone. Second, you are aware that all McDonald's, Starbucks, Public Libraries, etc all have free Wifi right?
Second, AT&T no longer has unlimited data so how many movies are you going to watch at $10 per GB?
Third, traveling between major metro areas, AT&T has mostly 2G coverage anyway. I mean I can't even believe you are making this point with a straight face. AT&T basically has islands of 3G coverage and all the roads connecting them are blanketed in crappy 2G. No matter what iPhone you have, you should have found some ways to accommodate this for now because unless you are on Verizon, you aren't getting much 3G.
Verizon would get my business under certain circumstances. They would have to offer noticeable savings over AT&T, and 10 bucks a month wouldn't be it. They would have to offer simultaneous voice and data and they cannot cripple an iPhone in any way. However I am also satisfied with AT&T and don't plan to move.
Third, traveling between major metro areas, AT&T has mostly 2G coverage anyway. I mean I can't even believe you are making this point with a straight face. AT&T basically has islands of 3G coverage and all the roads connecting them are blanketed in crappy 2G. No matter what iPhone you have, you should have found some ways to accommodate this for now because unless you are on Verizon, you aren't getting much 3G.
One can hope this is true but it really is starting to feel a bit like Apple is trying to shut the barn door after the horses have left. Part of me is wondering if this is why Apple has been stuck around $250-265 for what seems to be forever.
Oh, I don't know. Maybe because the entire market is lousy right now? Look at Apple's performance vs. the market over a wide range of possible time frames. Apple has handily outperformed the market for years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by myonlinelifenow
Just saying. 1000 people means nothing. Report on this when they poll 100,000 people in 15 major cities. That might give a better representation.
Report back when you get an education involving elementary statistics.
There is absolutely no problem with the sample size on this survey. Unless they were trying to claim that very small variations (a few percent) were real, the sample size is more than adequate.
There IS, of course, a potential problem with choosing a representative sample, but since we don't know how the sample was chosen, we'll never be able to answer that question. If the sample is biased, even 10 million surveys will be meaningless.
It isn't a total, flat out lie for those of us that know that we are discussing data and know how to switch the coverage map from voice (which is what you have selected) to data.
That is a link to the Western United States. The East is a bit better, less white more light blue, but the reality is that dark blue is 3G and yes there are islands of it surrounded by light blue. Out west you see plenty of white.
You can click a bit closer on that link and pretend you are in the LA area and decide to drive the 15, 10 or 40 freeway. You will spend the majority of your time in 2G data coverage. This is true of most major freeways and AT&T.
Quote:
Oh, I don't know. Maybe because the entire market is lousy right now? Look at Apple's performance vs. the market over a wide range of possible time frames. Apple has handily outperformed the market for years.
Something is only true until it isn't. Android hasn't come to fruition and started outselling Apple with 2.2, flash support and available on every carrier for years. That was the specific point I made that could be now weighing down the stock. Here is a link to a year to date chart. Apple hasn't made any progress since April. That is almost half a year.
It isn't just about Apple. You can imagine if Apple made Macs that only worked on AT&T internet service. At some point it isn't just about limiting your own growth, it is about enabling the growth of competitors as well.
EDIT: Realize this isn't a knock on Apple, rather proof that when they produce their next iPhone update, even if it is a minor update, that it will unleash a lot of pent up demand, more profits, slap down their competitors and jump that stock price even more.
If the IPHONE4 is available on VERIZON in Jan 2011, then some people will change immediately. Others will wait till their current contract expires to switch. Some will fall into the camp of...Should I buy now or wait till IPHONE 5 is available. Some will wait and see if Verizon can maintain its level of service with all the new customers. Many will migrate from ATT hoping that the grass is greener on the other side. Others still be looking to see what data plans Verizon will employ with the IPHONE4.
BOTTOM LINE: There are so many possible senarios to this story. However they all seem to pan out over a period in time.
"A survey of 1,000 consumers indicates that a significant number of subscribers are waiting to purchase the expected Verizon iPhone 4, indicating new threats for both AT&T and Android. "
When you have a customer base of 94 million and the term "significant number" is used after polling 1000 customers I would say thats a bit over the top and the poll is pretty much meaningless.
Also to say that Android could suffer when it was just reported that 200k units are being activated per day is also a bit much with only 1000 polled.
Clearly Verizon customers would be interested in having the iPhone come to Verizon as I am sure Sprint customers would be also if Apple made a CDMA version of the iPhone I see no reason for them not to roll it out to both Verizon and Sprint.
You've never had a college level statistics class, have you?
One of the things you learn in it is how large of a sample you need to estimate the population. And provided care was taken not to introduce bias into the sample selection process, a sample size of 1000 is more than sufficient to get decent estimates... even if the underlying population is infinite. (By decent estimates, I mean confidence levels high enough to support an article like this one.)
People like to believe that but it doesn't address biases in the people taking the polls, the questions or other factors that aren't always controlled well.
The poll is not proven until after the device is realized in the market. At best polls are informed speculation.
No it is always wise to question polls passed off as the truth or extremely accurate. For one thing polls are oftened tailored to the needs of the group contracting for the poll. Frankly you would be considered gullible if you accepted these results without more detailed info.
Dave
Well now, Dave, I have to take exception on the basis that you are changing the argument. You are correct that polls must take care not to introduce bias either by how they select their samples, how they pose their questions, interpret the data (i.e. spin the results) etc. etc. etc.
But the original complaint above was purely with regard to sample size. And their complaint was bogus.
If the IPHONE4 is available on VERIZON in Jan 2011, then some people will change immediately. Others will wait till their current contract expires to switch. Some will fall into the camp of...Should I buy now or wait till IPHONE 5 is available. Some will wait and see if Verizon can maintain its level of service with all the new customers. Many will migrate from ATT hoping that the grass is greener on the other side. Others still be looking to see what data plans Verizon will employ with the IPHONE4.
BOTTOM LINE: There are so many possible senarios to this story. However they all seem to pan out over a period in time.
That's a good point. If the January release happens and depending on where in the month it's released, it's at that point where it's getting close to the iPhone 5 release so there will be a decent amount of people that'll want to wait and see what it is before switching.
Have you ever said something, that when taken out of context, went again your philosophy? I would rather "judge" someone on their recent actions than on something they said years, or even months ago, for that matter.
Looking over SJ's life I think his actions speak louder than his words .... not that much different than any of us .... and his actions have been pretty good, IMHO.
You sound like a teabagger. They swore Obama would not get elected and that the polls were made up by MSM. Their logic? Neither they nor their friends were ever polled so the results must be made up.
Its hard to respond to someone that actually uses the word "teabagger" Should we simply call you "the flaming liberal"?
So I guess based on the polls the teabaggers should look forward to this November.
Comments
Verizon does not have a true 3G network. They will throttle everything that the Iphone can do.
Apple would be stupid to go to Verizon even with a cdma version.
Oh yeah, lets cut back on technology and offer a CDMA version of the IPhone.
Apple has until January to get the iPhone on T-mobile before I just give up and get an Android phone with them. I really don't want to switch to AT&T and I'm still waiting to get my first smart phone.
You should go buy an iPhone 3G/3GS, unlock it and put it on Tmobile now.
Count me in this group. Enjoying by 3G on T-Mobile until January.
Tmobile's rates make the slightly more limited network quite tolerable.
AT&T's network was bad in 2007 - when (comparatively) few iPhones were on it. The Droids have been selling hand over fist on Verizon and no one that I am aware of has complained about it. And Droid users gobble up even more data than iPhone users.
http://www.cultofmac.com/study-droid...m-iphone/52792
So good luck bringing down the network. And since you'll be on Verizon, enjoy use of your phone in places that you could only dream about with AT&T.
At least in So Cal, this is completely true.
I'm happy with AT&T and have no intention of switching - and no surprise that this article validates that the overwhelming majority are happy with AT&T. The vocal techies tend to be the most who agitate - if the average person can get functionality, they are typically happy. They aren't interested in enabling the service menu and arguing who has less db of loss....
I also remember before Verizon had any real competition how big of jerks they were. I'm not surprised that they were colluding with google to limit choice - what a shocker
The other point that is now obvious is if/when Verizon gets the iPhone, Android is going to be seriously stunted.
One can hope this is true but it really is starting to feel a bit like Apple is trying to shut the barn door after the horses have left. Part of me is wondering if this is why Apple has been stuck around $250-265 for what seems to be forever. Clearly their forward growth and current profits dictate a higher price.
If 1/3 of the ATT customers all bailed and went to Verizon, then ATT service would rock; and I'd still be the one with a "world phone".
I'm pretty sure this new chip will do both networks. Several Blackberries are both CDMA and GSM worldphones. Apple might even call it something crazy like the iPhone 4G, bump the A4 in it to a full 1 ghz (instead of the estimated 750-800 mhz now) and it might be LTE as well.
If 1/3 of the ATT customers all bailed and went to Verizon, then ATT service would rock; and I'd still be the one with a "world phone".
Actually the only true "world phones" are the ones with both cdma and gsm capability, like the Sprint TP2 for instance
Count me in this group. Enjoying by 3G on T-Mobile until January.
Since 3G doesn't work on T-Mobile how's the Edge speed doing? How do you watch a movie over that Edge netork?
51% of Verizon customers! isn't Verizon the larger carrier in US? that is a surprisingly large number, especially after reading "Why the Verizon iPhone is already too late" on msnbc. Did anyone read that article? the writer must be a little bit confused if he thinks this number is anything close to the truth.
After reading forums and blogs about Apple for the last decade it's clear to me that the truth is nowhere to be found. Everybody spins the data to support their fanboy or hater bias. This survey is a pure example conflicting data that can be spun anyway you like. if you are an at&t hater you can rag on that tidbit. If you are an Android hater you can spin the part about existing Verizon customers waiting for the iPhone. The fans of either can spin this survey their way too.
The only thing that matters, in my opinion, is that Apple's sales continue to rise and profits soar even in the face of the Android 'surge'. If that's not an indicator of success I don't know what is but that fact can be spun too can't it.
Bottom line, it's all completely useless bullshit.
Since 3G doesn't work on T-Mobile how's the Edge speed doing? How do you watch a movie over that Edge netork?
First I store most movies on my iPhone. Second, you are aware that all McDonald's, Starbucks, Public Libraries, etc all have free Wifi right?
Second, AT&T no longer has unlimited data so how many movies are you going to watch at $10 per GB?
Third, traveling between major metro areas, AT&T has mostly 2G coverage anyway. I mean I can't even believe you are making this point with a straight face. AT&T basically has islands of 3G coverage and all the roads connecting them are blanketed in crappy 2G. No matter what iPhone you have, you should have found some ways to accommodate this for now because unless you are on Verizon, you aren't getting much 3G.
I'd like to give you guys a treat today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxBchGCjRK8
30 seconds you'll enjoy if you love the iPhone.
Oh joy.
Thanks for making the ultimate against Flash on my iPhone.
Third, traveling between major metro areas, AT&T has mostly 2G coverage anyway. I mean I can't even believe you are making this point with a straight face. AT&T basically has islands of 3G coverage and all the roads connecting them are blanketed in crappy 2G. No matter what iPhone you have, you should have found some ways to accommodate this for now because unless you are on Verizon, you aren't getting much 3G.
That is, of course, a total, flat out lie.
http://www.wireless.att.com/coverageviewer/#?type=voice
One can hope this is true but it really is starting to feel a bit like Apple is trying to shut the barn door after the horses have left. Part of me is wondering if this is why Apple has been stuck around $250-265 for what seems to be forever.
Oh, I don't know. Maybe because the entire market is lousy right now? Look at Apple's performance vs. the market over a wide range of possible time frames. Apple has handily outperformed the market for years.
Just saying. 1000 people means nothing. Report on this when they poll 100,000 people in 15 major cities. That might give a better representation.
Report back when you get an education involving elementary statistics.
There is absolutely no problem with the sample size on this survey. Unless they were trying to claim that very small variations (a few percent) were real, the sample size is more than adequate.
There IS, of course, a potential problem with choosing a representative sample, but since we don't know how the sample was chosen, we'll never be able to answer that question. If the sample is biased, even 10 million surveys will be meaningless.
That is, of course, a total, flat out lie.
http://www.wireless.att.com/coverageviewer/#?type=voice
It isn't a total, flat out lie for those of us that know that we are discussing data and know how to switch the coverage map from voice (which is what you have selected) to data.
http://www.wireless.att.com/coverage...64062502&sci=2
That is a link to the Western United States. The East is a bit better, less white more light blue, but the reality is that dark blue is 3G and yes there are islands of it surrounded by light blue. Out west you see plenty of white.
You can click a bit closer on that link and pretend you are in the LA area and decide to drive the 15, 10 or 40 freeway. You will spend the majority of your time in 2G data coverage. This is true of most major freeways and AT&T.
Oh, I don't know. Maybe because the entire market is lousy right now? Look at Apple's performance vs. the market over a wide range of possible time frames. Apple has handily outperformed the market for years.
Something is only true until it isn't. Android hasn't come to fruition and started outselling Apple with 2.2, flash support and available on every carrier for years. That was the specific point I made that could be now weighing down the stock. Here is a link to a year to date chart. Apple hasn't made any progress since April. That is almost half a year.
It isn't just about Apple. You can imagine if Apple made Macs that only worked on AT&T internet service. At some point it isn't just about limiting your own growth, it is about enabling the growth of competitors as well.
EDIT: Realize this isn't a knock on Apple, rather proof that when they produce their next iPhone update, even if it is a minor update, that it will unleash a lot of pent up demand, more profits, slap down their competitors and jump that stock price even more.
BOTTOM LINE: There are so many possible senarios to this story. However they all seem to pan out over a period in time.
Since 3G doesn't work on T-Mobile how's the Edge speed doing? How do you watch a movie over that Edge netork?
Good enough. The signal from T-Mobile is much better in my area than craptastic AT&T, so slow signal is better than no signal.
Of course. But this is what grabbed me.
"A survey of 1,000 consumers indicates that a significant number of subscribers are waiting to purchase the expected Verizon iPhone 4, indicating new threats for both AT&T and Android. "
When you have a customer base of 94 million and the term "significant number" is used after polling 1000 customers I would say thats a bit over the top and the poll is pretty much meaningless.
Also to say that Android could suffer when it was just reported that 200k units are being activated per day is also a bit much with only 1000 polled.
Clearly Verizon customers would be interested in having the iPhone come to Verizon as I am sure Sprint customers would be also if Apple made a CDMA version of the iPhone I see no reason for them not to roll it out to both Verizon and Sprint.
You've never had a college level statistics class, have you?
One of the things you learn in it is how large of a sample you need to estimate the population. And provided care was taken not to introduce bias into the sample selection process, a sample size of 1000 is more than sufficient to get decent estimates... even if the underlying population is infinite. (By decent estimates, I mean confidence levels high enough to support an article like this one.)
Thompson
People like to believe that but it doesn't address biases in the people taking the polls, the questions or other factors that aren't always controlled well.
The poll is not proven until after the device is realized in the market. At best polls are informed speculation.
No it is always wise to question polls passed off as the truth or extremely accurate. For one thing polls are oftened tailored to the needs of the group contracting for the poll. Frankly you would be considered gullible if you accepted these results without more detailed info.
Dave
Well now, Dave, I have to take exception on the basis that you are changing the argument. You are correct that polls must take care not to introduce bias either by how they select their samples, how they pose their questions, interpret the data (i.e. spin the results) etc. etc. etc.
But the original complaint above was purely with regard to sample size. And their complaint was bogus.
Thompson
If the IPHONE4 is available on VERIZON in Jan 2011, then some people will change immediately. Others will wait till their current contract expires to switch. Some will fall into the camp of...Should I buy now or wait till IPHONE 5 is available. Some will wait and see if Verizon can maintain its level of service with all the new customers. Many will migrate from ATT hoping that the grass is greener on the other side. Others still be looking to see what data plans Verizon will employ with the IPHONE4.
BOTTOM LINE: There are so many possible senarios to this story. However they all seem to pan out over a period in time.
That's a good point. If the January release happens and depending on where in the month it's released, it's at that point where it's getting close to the iPhone 5 release so there will be a decent amount of people that'll want to wait and see what it is before switching.
very nice...straight from the SJ.........
Have you ever said something, that when taken out of context, went again your philosophy? I would rather "judge" someone on their recent actions than on something they said years, or even months ago, for that matter.
Looking over SJ's life I think his actions speak louder than his words .... not that much different than any of us .... and his actions have been pretty good, IMHO.
You sound like a teabagger. They swore Obama would not get elected and that the polls were made up by MSM. Their logic? Neither they nor their friends were ever polled so the results must be made up.
Its hard to respond to someone that actually uses the word "teabagger" Should we simply call you "the flaming liberal"?
So I guess based on the polls the teabaggers should look forward to this November.