Retirement Age

Posted:
in AppleOutsider edited January 2014
I haven't read much on this topic, but there is some news going around about ideas to once again increase the age for Social Security benefits to kick in, as a way to cut the Social Security budget.



As one of the most liberal members on this board, would you find it strange if I said I support this idea?



It comes down to this. As the situation changes, sacrifices need to be made. Social Security is not facing an immediate budget crisis, but there is clearly one on the horizon. Increasing the age for benefits could help to alleviate this problem greatly, with the goal to help us get past the baby boomer bump. It is a better solution than increasing Social Security tax levels. It is also a far better solution that privatization, which is a nightmare waiting to happen. Think the Wall Street bailouts were offensive? Just wait until we have a bailout of the privatized Social Security system if privatization goes ahead.



The baby boomer issue is a temporary one. All we have to do is get past it and we can look at further action.



We should also consider that due to medical advancement, older people should be healthier nowadays and more able to continue to work effectively well into their sixties. If they want to retire earlier, they should have prepared for their retirement on their own terms.



I'd be interested in hearing what everyone feels about this, especially Jimmac and a few others who are closer to retirement age than the other youngsters here.



[edit: Oops wrong forum... can a mod please move this to Political Insider? Thanks.]
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 33
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    I'm not really opposed to this idea. Although I wish we had Al Gore's lockbox from 2000 to avoid some of this mess...fiscal conservatism met with severe derision by the alleged beacons of conservatism themselves who really are nothing more than the epitome of hypocrisy.
  • Reply 2 of 33
    Why not just abolish the SSSystem and let people be responsible for taking care of themselves ???.



    You know... Planning ahead? ... Saving throughout you life so you'll have money set aside for when you can no longer work? ... Why is that such a difficult concept for people to grasp?
  • Reply 3 of 33
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    Not everyone can. And the response to that from Republicans is "well, fuck those people." The response to that from caring, compassionate individuals is "well, they're humans, too...shit...better do what we can for them as a civilized society."
  • Reply 4 of 33
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BR View Post


    Not everyone can.



    Oh, but they can...



    But it takes sacrifice and self control throughout ones life. Bad decisions made repeatedly throughout ones life have consequences.



    And apparently republicans don't have a lock on this attitude! (as I'm not one)
  • Reply 5 of 33
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    When there are abundant resources and they are being hoarded by a very small few, such sacrifice and self control (and a shit ton of luck because a single medical issue that isn't your fault can bankrupt you) should be unnecessary.
  • Reply 6 of 33
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post


    Oh, but they can...



    But it takes sacrifice and self control throughout ones life. Bad decisions made repeatedly throughout ones life have consequences.



    And apparently republicans don't have a lock on this attitude! (as I'm not one)



    Remember the lady who told Geedub she was struggling to make ends meet working three jobs, and el Prez congratulated her for being "uniquely American"? Do you think she is being irresponsible if she can't pay for her own retirement? Do you think she's alone?
  • Reply 7 of 33
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    Ya, that "uniquely American" quality is not something to be envied.
  • Reply 8 of 33
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BR View Post


    ... such sacrifice and self control should be unnecessary.



    Then why should ANYone work for ANYthing???

    Just getting up and going to work is some measure of sacrifice (there are certainly other things I would RATHER be doing)



    Everything should just be given to us by the government! (which gets it's $ by taking it from US.)







    Keep in mind, that when the tax system becomes such that EVERY dime over $250k that ANYbody makes must be given to the government (and tell me how else we will pay for all this crap.) Then nobody will even try to make more than that 250k... and tax receipts will drop to such that the government will have NO $$ to fund ANYthing!.

    (Yes, that 250k number was pulled out of thin air to illustrate a point... I don't know that anyone has publicly said what the income cap will be yet.)
  • Reply 9 of 33
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    You think in such hyperbole. Society will come crashing down when lazy people stop wanting to do things! AHH!!! No.



    I like how you selectively quoted me there as well...completely ignoring the other point that a single stroke of bad luck can bankrupt your entire family and NO ONE SHOULD LIVE WITH THAT KIND OF FEAR.
  • Reply 10 of 33
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BR View Post


    ...NO ONE SHOULD LIVE WITH THAT KIND OF FEAR.



    Why not? ... where is the right to be free from fear enumerated in our (or any nation's) constitution?



    If you don't want to be afraid, then take no risks... live extremely conservatively.



    You don't have the right to happiness... you have the right to PURSUE happiness.
  • Reply 11 of 33
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    Where is the virtue in being forced to live in fear over medical bill induced bankruptcies all because we treat sickness as a for-profit industry? As a civilized society, that's just one of the things that we are capable of doing away with and should because it's the right thing to do. Where's the compassion for our fellow man? I'm really fucking sick and tired of this "sucks to be you" mentality that is thriving in this country today.



    And of course you take my quote out of context again and change the scope of it. I never said people should have a right to live completely without fear. I said that certain fears that are easily assuaged (specifically healthcare related) have no virtue in our society.
  • Reply 12 of 33
    splinemodelsplinemodel Posts: 7,311member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BR View Post


    Not everyone can. And the response to that from Republicans is "well, fuck those people." The response to that from caring, compassionate individuals is "well, they're humans, too...shit...better do what we can for them as a civilized society."



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BR View Post


    When there are abundant resources and they are being hoarded by a very small few, such sacrifice and self control (and a shit ton of luck because a single medical issue that isn't your fault can bankrupt you) should be unnecessary.



    I don't know of any Republicans that are calling for large-scale elimination of social security, welfare, medicare. They do seek reform, because none of these programs are working efficiently. Moreover, it is tempting to look at the welfare states of the EU and say what a feasible system it is, but the bottom is starting to fall out there, too. The economic facts are that the most efficient fiscal mix has much reduced social welfare spending than represented by current levels, and that the private sector seems to be increasingly good at this (see the Gates Foundation).
  • Reply 13 of 33
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    The reforms that Republicans seek just line the pockets of their corporate puppet masters. Efficiency is the last thing they seek. Privatization and deregulation is what they seek. And we've seen the disastrous results of going too far in that direction this last decade. There is nothing that says government can't run efficiently.



    We should have had a lockbox on social security a very long time ago. We should decimate our defense spending. We should promote an educated populace.
  • Reply 14 of 33
    splinemodelsplinemodel Posts: 7,311member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BR View Post


    The reforms that Republicans seek just line the pockets of their corporate puppet masters. Efficiency is the last thing they seek. Privatization and deregulation is what they seek. And we've seen the disastrous results of going too far in that direction this last decade. There is nothing that says government can't run efficiently.



    We should have had a lockbox on social security a very long time ago. We should decimate our defense spending. We should promote an educated populace.



    I'm not trying to get into an ideological debate. I personally disagree with socialism or even watered-down EU style social democracy, but I'm not making that the point. I am, however, making the point that there are a lot elements to the overall debate that you are missing or have incorrect. The economy is not a simple equation. Not all debt spending is created equal.



    Democratic officials tend to receive more money from big corporate than Republicans do, so I don't really see a unique connection between Republicans and "corporate puppet masters." Big corporations tend to prefer soft-regulation, of the sort most Democrats and many Republicans seem to favor, because it allows them to operate with reduced competition. By nature of having non-incentivized pay structures for most employees and share-price incentives at the C-level, big corporations are revenue driven, not profit driven, so they are perfectly happy to work under restrictions. They will generally prevent deregulation if they can, in favor of soft-regulatory policies. The bailout can be considered the ultimate denouement of soft-regulatory policies, not de-regulation.



    Defense spending has risen considerably under Obama, so it's not really a partisan issue either. Moreover, defense spending has less economic impact than welfare spending, because without many exceptions it creates US jobs and large amounts of domestically-held intellectual property (e.g. patents). Cutting SS and medicare would have more net benefit on the economy, because a much larger portion of the resultant dollars are not fed back into the domestic economy. That is not to say that defense spending should be exempt from reduction, but it does make a point about its relative value.



    The "lockbox" is silly, because there already is this thing called an IRA that is great for saving money in. Nobody will ever vote for federally mandated retirement savings.



    What evidence do you have about not promoting an educated populace? I think it is clear that education is promoted. In parts of the world (and even among different US cultures), more is done with a lot less, because the students themselves embrace education. This is very easy to observe.
  • Reply 15 of 33
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    The lockbox was never silly. The fact you would even say that is silly. The lockbox was to keep the surplus away from the rest of congress so they can't spend it. Instead of going year to year, SS could build up some savings.



    How do we not promote an educated populace? Look a the numbers:

    *41 per cent say Jesus Christ will return within the next 40 years

    *64 percent of Americans support teaching creationism alongside evolution in the classroom

    *Half of all Americans believe they are protected by guardian angels, one-fifth say they've heard God speak to them, one-quarter say they have witnessed miraculous healings, 16 percent say they've received one and 8 percent say they pray in tongues
  • Reply 16 of 33
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    Guys, SAFETY NET. That's what all public financial help for individuals should be about. No liberal is sitting around saying, money for everyone! w000t!



    The better off of us, can help out the less fortunate, but in a way that a safety net catches those who fall on hard times, yet able to lift them out and help them to be more productive and return to contributing to society.



    There will always be those, eg. mentally or physically disabled people that will need more help than others (unless you're arguing for eugenics), but in most cases the "less fortunate" in the developed world become "less fortunate" because of losing jobs, global economic shifts, medical challenges, and so on.



    As for Social Security, I can't speak of specifics as I'm not in the US.



    But, in many countries around the world, there is like a "compulsory 401K". Could such a system be implemented in the US (if it hasn't already)? For example, whenever you work, the employer must contribute to your retirement fund, say 10% of your paycheck. Employers compensate by slightly lower wages, but that could be acceptable since it's basically "forcing" people to save for the future, where they wouldn't otherwise. In countries where this is implemented, this "compulsory 401K" fund cannot be withdrawn from until your retirement age unless there are serious medical expenses, etc.



    How would the above program compare/ be integrated with Social Security? If possible?



    Apologies if I'm not up to date with US terminology. I had an IRA and/or 401K or something like that, about 10 years ago. Can't remember since I left the US 7 years ago.
  • Reply 17 of 33
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BR View Post


    The lockbox was never silly. The fact you would even say that is silly. The lockbox was to keep the surplus away from the rest of congress so they can't spend it. Instead of going year to year, SS could build up some savings.



    How do we not promote an educated populace? Look a the numbers:

    *41 per cent say Jesus Christ will return within the next 40 years

    *64 percent of Americans support teaching creationism alongside evolution in the classroom

    *Half of all Americans believe they are protected by guardian angels, one-fifth say they've heard God speak to them, one-quarter say they have witnessed miraculous healings, 16 percent say they've received one and 8 percent say they pray in tongues



    Believing in God doesn't have to equate to blatant stupidity. It's a pity fundamental Christianity promotes that.



    For me, Christ returning is about oneself reaching a "Christ-like" state of forgiveness and happiness. Teaching creationism alongside evolution has a challenge in that what kind of creationism would you teach? The 7 day version? The intelligent design version? The alien-ancient-astronaut version? Until they can sort that out...



    I'm not a Christian, by the way, I would just call myself agnostic or, gnostic.
  • Reply 18 of 33
    mj1970mj1970 Posts: 9,002member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


    Guys, SAFETY NET. That's what all public financial help for individuals should be about. No liberal is sitting around saying, money for everyone! w000t!



    The problem with your argument here, at least in regard to Social Security, is that it is for everyone. It's not just a "safety net" for those who ran into to a rough spot and were unable to save for retirement. It is paid out to everyone.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


    The better off of us, can help out the less fortunate, but in a way that a safety net catches those who fall on hard times, yet able to lift them out and help them to be more productive and return to contributing to society.



    And, in the case of Social Security, it isn't the "better off of us" helping out the less fortunate. It is transferring wealth from the working young to the non-working old.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


    But, in many countries around the world, there is like a "compulsory 401K". Could such a system be implemented in the US (if it hasn't already)? For example, whenever you work, the employer must contribute to your retirement fund, say 10% of your paycheck. Employers compensate by slightly lower wages, but that could be acceptable since it's basically "forcing" people to save for the future, where they wouldn't otherwise.



    I'd guess at least 10% lower wages and probably more, because administering the plan has to be paid for too.



    Personally I have the problem with paternalistic attitude of forcing people to do the things that are good for them. This is rather arrogant and presumptuous and it suggests that the exact same things needs to be done by all people at the same time and leaves little room for the individual to make the choices and trade-offs that fits their own choices, values and desires.
  • Reply 19 of 33
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    Social Security is the most regressive tax we have. Uncap it and we fix it.
  • Reply 20 of 33
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


    The problem with your argument here, at least in regard to Social Security, is that it is for everyone. It's not just a "safety net" for those who ran into to a rough spot and were unable to save for retirement. It is paid out to everyone.



    And, in the case of Social Security, it isn't the "better off of us" helping out the less fortunate. It is transferring wealth from the working young to the non-working old.



    Fair enough... That's why instead of forcing people by taxes to pay for social security, you could instead get them to save for their own retirement through employer and self-funded contributions.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


    I'd guess at least 10% lower wages and probably more, because administering the plan has to be paid for too.



    Again, I always try to give an international perspective on these boards... You see, right now, as I understand, social security is funded out of public debt. In many countries, employer and self-contributed retirement savings go to something like a mutual fund. Therefore the fund increases in value over time, paying for administrative costs, and giving compounded interest to the retirement savings of an individual. This fund normally cannot be accessed by the government for other spending - perhaps the "locked box" you guys are talking about.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post


    Personally I have the problem with paternalistic attitude of forcing people to do the things that are good for them. This is rather arrogant and presumptuous and it suggests that the exact same things needs to be done by all people at the same time and leaves little room for the individual to make the choices and trade-offs that fits their own choices, values and desires.



    Well, as I understand, social security is a compulsory tax. Therefore that's forcing people to pay for it. I would say shifting it to forcing people to have a "compulsory IRA/401K" is more sensible. The other option would be to let people do whatever they wanted, and then those who are old that didn't save, we leave them out to suffer? Or, then, have to come up with a safety net for these people. The government has to cover its own ass sometimes, I think.



    There is some wiggle room in what I suggest. For example, in the Australian model employers must contribute to the retirement fund. However, the funds are not managed by the government but various financial and fund management companies. The individual can choose which fund to use and their investment strategies - whether they want to be more aggressive or more conservative in how their savings are invested. Moreover, the individual can self-contribute to the fund if they want. They don't have to, but if they do, then I think they get a tax deduction, up to a certain limit and in some cases the government contributes a matching amount, up to a certain limit.



    Additional wiggle room would be for those running their own business, they might be exempted. Those on contract could also be exempted, which is the case for me where I live. I choose a higher wage by being on contract, have more flexible hours, but I do not get that 10% benefit from employers and my retirement fund is not growing at the moment. I always have the option of self-contributions or other plans I see fit.
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