Could it be that your dog knows what he did was "bad" and so was afraid (all animals know fear - really more of an instict than an emotion IMO) of being punished somehow?
Fear is an instinct as well as an emotion.
You say proud, I say just plain old excited. Example: you could probably say a hundred different things to your dog, but if you say it with enthusiasm in your voice and a smile on your face, he will likely wag his tail every time. OTOH, If you say "good dog" like you're pissed, he might actually be afraid afterwards. Try it. Dogs hone in on tone of voice and physical disposition as much as any words that come out of our mouths.
Excitement is an emotion too
When I'm happy the dog is happy, when I'm upset with him he gets upset too. I think what you said sort of backs up what I'm saying.
Could it be that his "anger" is really just a last resort behavior, because he has to go out but you don't take him. And thus, he finds his scent from the last time and dumps his load where all dogs most likely would?
Well, we do take him out regularly. Isn't it odd that he only dumps in the house when we don't play ball or give him as much attention as usual? Otherwise he does it if he's sick and he doesn't go in front of the bedroom, he goes in the kitchen where there's no rug and clean up is easy! Perhaps everytime he does poop in the house we magically find something we did wrong. Who knows.
You should really take a look at that Darwin essay I posted above. He did a study on this and his findings are really interesting.
By the way, do you own a dog Moogs ™ ? I think its the attachment that we create with these animals that makes us think of them more as humans than pets. If you had a dog I bet you'd feel the same way. Not that it changes your arguments or mine. I guess it really doesn't matter. I feel that my dog has emotions and I don't see any harm in that. The dog sure benefits from it.
Could it be that your dog knows what he did was "bad" and so was afraid
True, this is the standard response.
However my question becomes this:
I assume via inductive reasoning that since when a human displays an emotion is measn that he has that emotion, and thus when a animal displays it so must he have it.
Its weak, but its better than nothing.
What I want is some evidence to the contrary. Can any one help out?
But then would we have to give them rights like people? Could they vote or work or have citizenship?
Lets not get carried away
The point of law and society is to organize/regulate people, as dogs and cats are not people (in the human sense of the word) they are not privlaged to being part of the process.
ut what about the ability for human speech. Our cat Tawny used to speak every now and then
Funny you should say... I have a cat whom (in comparison to most other cats whom I have met and had) is rather intelligent. A few years ago my mother told me this story in which she was working in the kitchen (while I was at highschool), and all of a sudden she heard a very clear "mom?". She looked around surprised since she knew that both me and my sister were at school, only to see the cat standing there looking up at her.
As I know that cats can NOT speak (physically they dont have the capabillities) I know that he did not actually SAY this. However via a strong enough thought, and perhaps a slight mental connection (you tell me this can not happen and so help me... )...
<strong>I love my pup and although I say things like "Oh look, she's jealous" or "I think she's mad at me.", I don't really believe that she has those emotions.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What do you think our emotions are? The way I see it, our emotional reactions generally prompt the same sort of behaviors that an instinct should in the same situations.
When we find someone that fits with our ideals for a spouse/mate we fall in love with them (obviously I'm simplifying here, but keep reading). This love, assuming the other party also feels that way, eventually leads to mating and procreation (again simplification, but I think you can see the connection). The only difference I can see between love and a mating instinct is that, due to the pretty much universal practice of marriage, there is much more time between when a human falls in love with another human and mates, than there is between when an animal discovers a suitable mate and mates.
I think what it comes down to is that our emotions are nothing more than the remnants of the instincts that used to control us minus the control factor. Emotions are just instincts that we can ignore if we so choose.
The point of law and society is to organize/regulate people, as dogs and cats are not people (in the human sense of the word) they are not privlaged to being part of the process.
Yeah but what if they become sufficiently advanced and revolt against their masters. maybe dogs and cats will unite under one banner and overthrow humans as the dominant species on earth. Then our decendents will be their pets.
As I know that cats can NOT speak (physically they dont have the capabillities) I know that he did not actually SAY this. However via a strong enough thought, and perhaps a slight mental connection (you tell me this can not happen and so help me... )...</strong><hr></blockquote>
So how can my mother and I BOTH verify the fact that we saw and heard our cat say "help me" and "I won't go" when cats absolutely cannot speak? It obviously wasn't the voice of a human, but it was distinguishable enough that we could both tell what he was saying.
Let me back this up with the fact that my cat was much more intelligent than many humans I know (seriously). People would come over and, on a regular basis, comment on how human-like his demeanor was. If it's possible, I'd swear he was a human trapped in a cat's body.
<strong>So how can my mother and I BOTH verify the fact that we saw and heard our cat say "help me" and "I won't go" when cats absolutely cannot speak?</strong><hr></blockquote>Folie Ã* deux?
The only reason why I get embarrassed when I do something is because I know someone will rib me for it later. If there was nobody around to catch any of my mistakes, I might show embarrassment at first, but after a long time, I just wouldn't care.
The more social the animal, the more likely it is to show emotion. Dogs and cats and other higher order animals are very social.
It is an old myth that dogs only have black and white vision. The have limited color vision, like someone who is red/green colorblind.
My cockatoo Roxy, can actually ask for what she wants. She can associate abstract. It has taken me 8 years to get her where she is now but she clearly has intelligent thought capability, not just mimicry.
You can ask her "what is Roxy?" She will respond "Big preatty cockatoo". Then ask her what a cockatoo is. "bird" is always the response. I thought at first this was merely association stimulus until I took her flying in the Cessna. We got to the airport and when she saw the airplane she exclimed "BIG PREATTY BIRD!", "LOOK AT THAT BIG PREATTY BIRD!" This took me by total suprise. The kicker was when she said "I wanna fly". She knew what that airplane was. It was all I could do to hold her back from climbing in before I could pre-flight. She has seen my R/C planes and calls them birds, but the real one was a big preatty bird. She can eat with utensils and work a combonation lock.
I am just so amazed at the intelligence with my feathered companion.
The intelligence of parrots is being tken seriously since the studies of Irene Pepperberg has come to scientificly accepted at MIT. <a href="http://www.alexfoundation.org/index.html"; target="_blank">Alex</a>
<strong>My cockatoo Roxy, can actually ask for what she wants. She can associate abstract. It has taken me 8 years to get her where she is now but she clearly has intelligent thought capability, not just mimicry.
You can ask her "what is Roxy?" She will respond "Big preatty cockatoo". Then ask her what a cockatoo is. "bird" is always the response. I thought at first this was merely association stimulus until I took her flying in the Cessna. We got to the airport and when she saw the airplane she exclimed "BIG PREATTY BIRD!", "LOOK AT THAT BIG PREATTY BIRD!" This took me by total suprise. The kicker was when she said "I wanna fly". She knew what that airplane was. It was all I could do to hold her back from climbing in before I could pre-flight. She has seen my R/C planes and calls them birds, but the real one was a big preatty bird. She can eat with utensils and work a combonation lock.
I am just so amazed at the intelligence with my feathered companion.
The intelligence of parrots is being tken seriously since the studies of Irene Pepperberg has come to scientificly accepted at MIT. <a href="http://www.alexfoundation.org/index.html"; target="_blank">Alex</a></strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes Crazy pilot, the parrots hare very clever, perhaps one day she will able to pilot your Decathlon.
<strong>Fear is an instinct as well as an emotion.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think fear is an emotion, but I don't want to get into a battle of semantics with you. Instincts are behaviors and reactions within us that are genetically ingrained from way back - way back in the sense of, fear was what kept us alive when being tracked by the sabre-tooth tiger (you get the idea). To me an emotion is something of a different order - something more psychological than chemical, if you want to look at it that way.
[quote]<strong>Excitement is an emotion too
When I'm happy the dog is happy, when I'm upset with him he gets upset too. I think what you said sort of backs up what I'm saying.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Mmm...dunno. I don't think of excitement as an emotion either. Sort of the opposite of fear in the above context....
[quote]<strong>By the way, do you own a dog </strong><hr></blockquote>
Uh oh...someone didn't read my post very carefully. Why yes we do own a dog. And I do indeed have a good "raport" with her, but I still don't think she's has emotions so much as geneticly instinctive behaviors that appear to be emotional in nature. Just because she makes "sad eyes" when we wake her from a nap, doesn't mean she knows what "sad" is. Nor does she know what "happy" is necessarily - all she knows is if she comes to the door and acts all spastic when I get home, she gets a treat.
Now, I'm not saying (again) that dogs have NO emotions. I'm saying they don't have human emotions which are set off by human-like reasoning. Their emotions are different, and of a lower order IMO, than what we experience every day. That doesn't make them any less enjoyable to have around or any less a member of the family - just less capable of exhibiting certain pyschological behaviors akin to our own.
How am I supposed to respond to a rational non-threatening post like that?
Sorry I missed your line about owning a dog, I skipped right to the part where you quoted me. hehe. Bad Willoughby, no bone.
So now that you've said Dogs have emotions, but just on a different level, where can we take this? How about we pretend that you think dogs have no feelings or emotions and should be used as a food source for humans? Come on! Than I'll pretend that I AM a dog and I'm really offended by your comments. Yeah thats the ticket!
she saw the airplane she exclimed "BIG PREATTY BIRD!", "LOOK AT THAT BIG PREATTY BIRD!"
Holy sh!! Thats one smart bird.
So how can my mother and I BOTH verify the fact that we saw and heard our cat say "help me" and "I won't go" when cats absolutely cannot speak
Let me back this up with the fact that my cat was much more intelligent than many humans I know (seriously).
Quote a friend of mine whne I brought up this same subject:
"Hell, Mish [my cat] is smarter than most the people from KG [my old highschool]"
I know what your saying, and I beleive that he probably meant to say something along those lines. Cats communicate VERY well (from a facial glance I can usually tell what Mish wants, and he responds to verbal stimulus very well... or at least when hes not completley ignoring me ), however they dont have the abillity to make facial and vocal changes in order to speak. My sugestion, like with my cat, is that he (or she) "vibed" you (which cats do VERY well) and meowed. At least that is what Im assuming happened with Mish, as Im pretty sure that he cant talk, or else he'd be saying "food" constantly.
He does however Meow a LOT. Whenever he thinks hes alone I could SWEAR he shouts "hello?". Not to mention when hes really happy and he kind of mumbles.
than there is between when an animal discovers a suitable mate and mates.
Very few animals actually "mate" in the same sence as humans do. However there are some birds (Swans any one? Mate for life) who do, along with some animals as well. Actually several species of apes and monkeys have HIGHLY sophisticated mating rituals and practices.
Yeah but what if they become sufficiently advanced and revolt against their masters. maybe dogs and cats will unite under one banner and overthrow humans as the dominant species on earth. Then our decendents will be their pets.
Then we would have to build larger, smarter robot cats and dogs to chase away the super evolved robot cats and dogs. Then the robots would realize that we are using them as mere means and revolt to create a robot utopia, But then who would give them <a href="http://www.bobandgeorge.com/Archive/Jan02.html?29"; target="_blank">ice cream...?</a>
Roxy is down right uncanny with her associative ability. She knows what a "cockatoo" is. We went to the vet to board her when I went on vacation and there was a moluccan cockatoo there in its cage. Roxy leaned over and said "Hello, big preatty cockatoo". The vet was floored. I asked what is Roxy to her. "Roxy is a preatty cockatoo" she answers. She told the other cockatoo to "c'mere, gimme a kiss". I guess she wanted it out of its cage.
When she is tired and wants to sleep she tells me "its time for the preatty bird to go nite nite".
She clearly can communicate her wishes to me.
This is very common in the parrot world when given a good social environment and caring home.
I'd like to restate my above post and reassert that humans are animals too. So in light of this, who has the audacity to suggest we, as animals, do not have emotions, but some instincts that merely due to their context appear to be emotions?
Comments
And as mammals, we are closely genetically related tp our furry friends. Even brain chemistry.
<strong>I know they do...
When I was about twelve I came home wearing a red shirt(a color I never wear) and a new short haircut...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dogs only see in black and white.
<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Fear is an instinct as well as an emotion.
You say proud, I say just plain old excited. Example: you could probably say a hundred different things to your dog, but if you say it with enthusiasm in your voice and a smile on your face, he will likely wag his tail every time. OTOH, If you say "good dog" like you're pissed, he might actually be afraid afterwards. Try it. Dogs hone in on tone of voice and physical disposition as much as any words that come out of our mouths.
Excitement is an emotion too
When I'm happy the dog is happy, when I'm upset with him he gets upset too. I think what you said sort of backs up what I'm saying.
Could it be that his "anger" is really just a last resort behavior, because he has to go out but you don't take him. And thus, he finds his scent from the last time and dumps his load where all dogs most likely would?
Well, we do take him out regularly. Isn't it odd that he only dumps in the house when we don't play ball or give him as much attention as usual? Otherwise he does it if he's sick and he doesn't go in front of the bedroom, he goes in the kitchen where there's no rug and clean up is easy! Perhaps everytime he does poop in the house we magically find something we did wrong. Who knows.
You should really take a look at that Darwin essay I posted above. He did a study on this and his findings are really interesting.
By the way, do you own a dog Moogs ™ ? I think its the attachment that we create with these animals that makes us think of them more as humans than pets. If you had a dog I bet you'd feel the same way. Not that it changes your arguments or mine. I guess it really doesn't matter. I feel that my dog has emotions and I don't see any harm in that. The dog sure benefits from it.
<strong>
Dogs only see in black and white.
<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe so... but the only other color I wore was black...
P.S. I know black isnt a color... <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
------------------------------------
© FERRO 2001-2002
True, this is the standard response.
However my question becomes this:
I assume via inductive reasoning that since when a human displays an emotion is measn that he has that emotion, and thus when a animal displays it so must he have it.
Its weak, but its better than nothing.
What I want is some evidence to the contrary. Can any one help out?
But then would we have to give them rights like people? Could they vote or work or have citizenship?
Lets not get carried away
The point of law and society is to organize/regulate people, as dogs and cats are not people (in the human sense of the word) they are not privlaged to being part of the process.
ut what about the ability for human speech. Our cat Tawny used to speak every now and then
Funny you should say... I have a cat whom (in comparison to most other cats whom I have met and had) is rather intelligent. A few years ago my mother told me this story in which she was working in the kitchen (while I was at highschool), and all of a sudden she heard a very clear "mom?". She looked around surprised since she knew that both me and my sister were at school, only to see the cat standing there looking up at her.
As I know that cats can NOT speak (physically they dont have the capabillities) I know that he did not actually SAY this. However via a strong enough thought, and perhaps a slight mental connection (you tell me this can not happen and so help me...
<strong>I love my pup and although I say things like "Oh look, she's jealous" or "I think she's mad at me.", I don't really believe that she has those emotions.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What do you think our emotions are? The way I see it, our emotional reactions generally prompt the same sort of behaviors that an instinct should in the same situations.
When we find someone that fits with our ideals for a spouse/mate we fall in love with them (obviously I'm simplifying here, but keep reading). This love, assuming the other party also feels that way, eventually leads to mating and procreation (again simplification, but I think you can see the connection). The only difference I can see between love and a mating instinct is that, due to the pretty much universal practice of marriage, there is much more time between when a human falls in love with another human and mates, than there is between when an animal discovers a suitable mate and mates.
I think what it comes down to is that our emotions are nothing more than the remnants of the instincts that used to control us minus the control factor. Emotions are just instincts that we can ignore if we so choose.
Yeah but what if they become sufficiently advanced and revolt against their masters. maybe dogs and cats will unite under one banner and overthrow humans as the dominant species on earth. Then our decendents will be their pets.
Or maybe not.
<strong>
As I know that cats can NOT speak (physically they dont have the capabillities) I know that he did not actually SAY this. However via a strong enough thought, and perhaps a slight mental connection (you tell me this can not happen and so help me...
So how can my mother and I BOTH verify the fact that we saw and heard our cat say "help me" and "I won't go" when cats absolutely cannot speak? It obviously wasn't the voice of a human, but it was distinguishable enough that we could both tell what he was saying.
Let me back this up with the fact that my cat was much more intelligent than many humans I know (seriously). People would come over and, on a regular basis, comment on how human-like his demeanor was. If it's possible, I'd swear he was a human trapped in a cat's body.
<strong>So how can my mother and I BOTH verify the fact that we saw and heard our cat say "help me" and "I won't go" when cats absolutely cannot speak?</strong><hr></blockquote>Folie Ã* deux?
The more social the animal, the more likely it is to show emotion. Dogs and cats and other higher order animals are very social.
It is an old myth that dogs only have black and white vision. The have limited color vision, like someone who is red/green colorblind.
You can ask her "what is Roxy?" She will respond "Big preatty cockatoo". Then ask her what a cockatoo is. "bird" is always the response. I thought at first this was merely association stimulus until I took her flying in the Cessna. We got to the airport and when she saw the airplane she exclimed "BIG PREATTY BIRD!", "LOOK AT THAT BIG PREATTY BIRD!" This took me by total suprise. The kicker was when she said "I wanna fly". She knew what that airplane was. It was all I could do to hold her back from climbing in before I could pre-flight. She has seen my R/C planes and calls them birds, but the real one was a big preatty bird. She can eat with utensils and work a combonation lock.
I am just so amazed at the intelligence with my feathered companion.
The intelligence of parrots is being tken seriously since the studies of Irene Pepperberg has come to scientificly accepted at MIT. <a href="http://www.alexfoundation.org/index.html"; target="_blank">Alex</a>
<strong>My cockatoo Roxy, can actually ask for what she wants. She can associate abstract. It has taken me 8 years to get her where she is now but she clearly has intelligent thought capability, not just mimicry.
You can ask her "what is Roxy?" She will respond "Big preatty cockatoo". Then ask her what a cockatoo is. "bird" is always the response. I thought at first this was merely association stimulus until I took her flying in the Cessna. We got to the airport and when she saw the airplane she exclimed "BIG PREATTY BIRD!", "LOOK AT THAT BIG PREATTY BIRD!" This took me by total suprise. The kicker was when she said "I wanna fly". She knew what that airplane was. It was all I could do to hold her back from climbing in before I could pre-flight. She has seen my R/C planes and calls them birds, but the real one was a big preatty bird. She can eat with utensils and work a combonation lock.
I am just so amazed at the intelligence with my feathered companion.
The intelligence of parrots is being tken seriously since the studies of Irene Pepperberg has come to scientificly accepted at MIT. <a href="http://www.alexfoundation.org/index.html"; target="_blank">Alex</a></strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes Crazy pilot, the parrots hare very clever, perhaps one day she will able to pilot your Decathlon.
[ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>
[ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: Mars_Attacks ]</p>
<strong>Fear is an instinct as well as an emotion.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think fear is an emotion, but I don't want to get into a battle of semantics with you. Instincts are behaviors and reactions within us that are genetically ingrained from way back - way back in the sense of, fear was what kept us alive when being tracked by the sabre-tooth tiger (you get the idea). To me an emotion is something of a different order - something more psychological than chemical, if you want to look at it that way.
[quote]<strong>Excitement is an emotion too
When I'm happy the dog is happy, when I'm upset with him he gets upset too. I think what you said sort of backs up what I'm saying.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Mmm...dunno. I don't think of excitement as an emotion either. Sort of the opposite of fear in the above context....
[quote]<strong>By the way, do you own a dog </strong><hr></blockquote>
Uh oh...someone didn't read my post very carefully.
Now, I'm not saying (again) that dogs have NO emotions. I'm saying they don't have human emotions which are set off by human-like reasoning. Their emotions are different, and of a lower order IMO, than what we experience every day. That doesn't make them any less enjoyable to have around or any less a member of the family - just less capable of exhibiting certain pyschological behaviors akin to our own.
[ 03-07-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ? ]</p>
How am I supposed to respond to a rational non-threatening post like that?
Sorry I missed your line about owning a dog, I skipped right to the part where you quoted me. hehe. Bad Willoughby, no bone.
So now that you've said Dogs have emotions, but just on a different level, where can we take this? How about we pretend that you think dogs have no feelings or emotions and should be used as a food source for humans?
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<strong>Moogs,
Come on! Than I'll pretend that I AM a dog and I'm really offended by your comments. Yeah thats the ticket!
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Are you Leonis beloved dog of the old AI ?
Holy sh!! Thats one smart bird.
So how can my mother and I BOTH verify the fact that we saw and heard our cat say "help me" and "I won't go" when cats absolutely cannot speak
Let me back this up with the fact that my cat was much more intelligent than many humans I know (seriously).
Quote a friend of mine whne I brought up this same subject:
"Hell, Mish [my cat] is smarter than most the people from KG [my old highschool]"
I know what your saying, and I beleive that he probably meant to say something along those lines. Cats communicate VERY well (from a facial glance I can usually tell what Mish wants, and he responds to verbal stimulus very well... or at least when hes not completley ignoring me
He does however Meow a LOT. Whenever he thinks hes alone I could SWEAR he shouts "hello?". Not to mention when hes really happy and he kind of mumbles.
than there is between when an animal discovers a suitable mate and mates.
Very few animals actually "mate" in the same sence as humans do. However there are some birds (Swans any one? Mate for life) who do, along with some animals as well. Actually several species of apes and monkeys have HIGHLY sophisticated mating rituals and practices.
Yeah but what if they become sufficiently advanced and revolt against their masters. maybe dogs and cats will unite under one banner and overthrow humans as the dominant species on earth. Then our decendents will be their pets.
Then we would have to build larger, smarter robot cats and dogs to chase away the super evolved robot cats and dogs. Then the robots would realize that we are using them as mere means and revolt to create a robot utopia, But then who would give them <a href="http://www.bobandgeorge.com/Archive/Jan02.html?29"; target="_blank">ice cream...?</a>
When she is tired and wants to sleep she tells me "its time for the preatty bird to go nite nite".
She clearly can communicate her wishes to me.
This is very common in the parrot world when given a good social environment and caring home.
Oh, and humans are animals.
ciao, stimuli.
ps humans are animals