What's the deal with the Southern US?

brussell · March 9, 2002 4:04PM

I was thinking about this because of the thread about the woman who killed the guy in her windshield. I was wondering why it seems like these things always happen in Texas.

Well, I did a little digging, and it's true - there's more violent crime, and especially gun-based crime in the south, especially Texas.

But they execute more people which is supposedly a deterrent, and more people have guns which supposedly protects you from crime.

What's the deal? You Southerners got some 'splainin' to do.

:razz:

<a href="http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/region.htm"; target="_blank">Homicide is higher in the South.</a>

<a href="http://www.vpc.org/studies/norckey.htm"; target="_blank">Gun ownership is higher in the South.</a>

Executions are higher in the South:

fotns · March 9, 2002 4:21PM

About the death penalty, deterrence is not its main objective. First and foremost, it is punishment. It is the ultimate price so justice may be served. If it deters others, so much the better, but even if it doesn't, that does not negate its importance in the criminal justice system.

agent302 · March 9, 2002 6:17PM

[quote]Originally posted by FotNS:

About the death penalty, deterrence is not its main objective. First and foremost, it is punishment. It is the ultimate price so justice may be served. If it deters others, so much the better, but even if it doesn't, that does not negate its importance in the criminal justice system.<hr></blockquote>

Actually, deterrence is a main concept put forth by groups trying to lobby for the introduction of the death penalty. Life without parole is just as much punishment.

thinkingdifferent · March 9, 2002 7:35PM

Last week I heard a story on Public Radio that was talking about how racism was increasing in the deep south, specifically Texas. It seems that ever since the mid 60's, the south has become more republican. This is being attributed to the democracts passing anti discrimination laws in the '60s. Right or wrong, racism will always be around, deal with it.

splinemodel · March 9, 2002 9:22PM

Alright, bear with me here:

The racial climate in the South has always been shaky. First it was white vs. black in master vs. slave, then white vs. Mexican in the wars, and etc. In the North there never was the direct racial conflict that there was in the South.

The Southerners I know who are big-time Republicans are more in favor of the party, not for any racial reasons, but because Republicans tend to lobby towards policies that are genuinely in line with the way of life down there. I'd guess that the biggest reason why most Southern blacks are Dems is because many Southern whites are Republicans. Economic factors come second.

As for Public Radio, it's something not to be trusted in the same way that right-wing journals are a bit untrustworthy. It's run by a bunch of socialist, intellectual-aristocrats who think that they are keepers of culture. To say that racism is increasing in the South is dead wrong. Perhaps there are spikes in some regions, but I'm sure that it has greatly decreased overall in the past 20 years. The folks at NPR were using skewed surveys, without a doubt.

_ alliance _ · March 10, 2002 12:04AM

we gotta have our guns. its as simple as that. its security. (i dont own a gun btw...)

in the south, we have to deal w/ all this racist bullsh*t. in the north, u have to deal w/ the canadians. it seems that we got the good end of that deal.

torifile · March 10, 2002 12:20AM

The south has it's fair bit of racial tension, but I don't think that that's the main reason for the higher crime rates. I think it actually has more to do with the higher rates of poverty down here. The south, as a whole, is poorer than the north. Also, there have been several studies that look at the way violence is perceived in the south, and it appears to be more acceptable.

For example, there's something that social psychologists like to call a "culture of honor." Basically what this boils down to is that committing an act of violence that is perceived as being provoked because of a slight to one's honor, is looked upon more favorably in the south than in the north (how's that for an awkwardly worded sentence??). What several studies have shown is that the south has such a culture. They sent out fake resumes to random employers, both in the south and the north, identical in all ways. For the question about being convicted of a felony on the application, they answered yes and provided an explanation something like "I killed a man because he was sleeping with my wife." There was a significant difference in the number of telephone inquiries for followup interviews at the employers who were based in the south. I'm sure I forgot some of the methodology, but that's the gist.

Another study looked at the terms used to describe violent crimes on the local news in the south and the north. They coded stories for the "tone" (warmth, positivity, negativity, etc.) and they found that the newscasts in the south tended to use more positive terms overall for acts of violence.

It's just more accepted down here. There's more of a sense of vigilante justice, if you will. You take care of your property, however you can. Of course, there could be other reasons, but I'm sure that these are just as logical explanations as any. (Personally, I like to laugh when all the gun-toting rednecks around here say that the guns make them safer. Just look at the stats for god's sake!)

[edit: I forgot to mention the heat/aggression connection. People tend to be more aggressive when it's hotter and it's hotter in the south. (This could also be a cause of the poverty, leading to the aggression. That is, poverty mediates the relationship between heat and aggression, at least partially.) Just something else to chew on.]

[ 03-10-2002: Message edited by: torifile ]

spaceman_spiff · March 10, 2002 12:29AM

[quote]Originally posted by ThinkingDifferent:

Last week I heard a story on Public Radio that was talking about how racism was increasing in the deep south, specifically Texas...<hr></blockquote>

More racist than during Jim Crow? Yeah, right.

moogs · March 10, 2002 11:39AM

I don't know if a study has ever been done on this, but my theory is that racism doesn't have so much to do with southern vs. northern, as it does rural vs. urban (or whether your parents grew up in a rural area vs. an urban one).

[While in college] I found some seriously f*cked up redneck bastards from Iowa (a supposedly calm, friendly place to all who visit), Illinois, Wisconsin - even Minnesota. Many didn't even attempt to hide their racist attitudes in public places. And almost without exception, the people who held these views - they all came from farm communities or places that were otherwise isolated from urban areas.

Now think about this: the deep south is a LOT more tomato field than it is Atlanta or Charlotte, if you take my meaning. Most of Georgia, South Carolina, Florida, Alabama (and the others) - it's all farmland or empty tracts of pine forrest. And much of it is dirt-poor also - which could cerainly be a related factor. Poverty tends to bring out the worst in people... jealousy, bitterness towards outsiders, etc.

I don't know exactly what it is that skews the opinions of people in rural areas - maybe it's just a simple lack of contact with those they hate. It seemed many of the people I noted above basically never had to deal with anyone of color until they got to college (too late for change, obviously). Another thing I don't get is that supposedly people in rural communities are *more* ethical as a group than us urban dwellers, *more* "do unto others", etc.

But if you ask me, the behavior of people who come from rural areas doesn't bear this out too well. Now it could just be that I ran into all the wrong people in this regard and so, the vast majority of farm families and rural dwellers are kind as can be - but the odds seem against it from my perspective. Almost every racist dickhead I had the displeasure of meeting during my college years, came from rural places (even though the largest percentage of students were from the city - by FAR).

Thus I think racism in large part has to do with the type of community you grew up in (in terms of urban or rural), not how far north or south of the Mason-Dixon line you are. That's NOT to say there are no cross-burning dip-shits in the big city, just far fewer of them as a percentage of their community.

An takers?

[ 03-10-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ? ]

[ 03-10-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ? ]

outsider · March 10, 2002 1:02PM

in the south, we have to deal w/ all this racist bullsh*t. in the north, u have to deal w/ the canadians. it seems that we got the good end of that deal.

I know you're just kidding, but I can't think of any better neighbors than Canada. You should see how lax the borders are.

_ alliance _ · March 10, 2002 1:16PM

[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:

in the south, we have to deal w/ all this racist bullsh*t. in the north, u have to deal w/ the canadians. it seems that we got the good end of that deal.

I know you're just kidding, but I can't think of any better neighbors than Canada. You should see how lax the borders are.<hr></blockquote>

so they DO intermingle w/ americans...

something must be done before they run wild.

spaceman_spiff · March 10, 2002 1:26PM

[quote]Originally posted by Moogs ?:



Thus I think racism in large part has to do with the type of community you grew up in (in terms of urban or rural), not how far north or south of the Mason-Dixon line you are...

An takers?<hr></blockquote>

I dunno. NYC (as much as I love the place) at times displays a frightening amount of racial polarization. And it's not just the "cross burning dipshits" who are the problem. There are also the Al Sharptons on the other side of the divide.

But wasn't this thread supposed to be about murder rates and captital punishment? Racism isn't the only reason people commit murder. I'll bet it isn't even in the top five.

samantha joanne ollendale · March 10, 2002 1:50PM

I lived in Texas for a year, and from unfortunate first hand observation, for every Al Sharpton, there must be at least 10,000 David Dukes.

ghost_user_name · March 10, 2002 2:22PM

There was a report out several years ago that was much more intelligent and substantial than the replies here. I think I read about it in Scientific American? The increased violence in the south was linked to .... can't remember .... the culture that solves problems via the dual. That is one's "honor" is involved in situation in the south much more than in other parts of the country. Something like that.

spaceman_spiff · March 10, 2002 2:42PM

[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:

I lived in Texas for a year, and from unfortunate first hand observation, for every Al Sharpton, there must be at least 10,000 David Dukes.<hr></blockquote>

Wow! Ten thousand! No hyperbole here folks.

ghost_user_name · March 10, 2002 2:46PM

Of course the liberal knee jerk reaction is to blame white racism for everything.

torifile · March 10, 2002 4:17PM

[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:

There was a report out several years ago that was much more intelligent and substantial than the replies here. I think I read about it in Scientific American? The increased violence in the south was linked to .... can't remember .... the culture that solves problems via the dual. That is one's "honor" is involved in situation in the south much more than in other parts of the country. Something like that.<hr></blockquote>

I guess you didn't read my post, did you? It's the culture of honor and I describe a couple of the studies examining it.

torifile · March 10, 2002 4:19PM

[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:

Of course the liberal knee jerk reaction is to blame white racism for everything.<hr></blockquote>

It's not the cause for everything, but it is the cause of a lot of things. Don't be so closed minded. Whites have caused more than their fair share of suffering in the world. Accept that and move on.

[ 03-10-2002: Message edited by: torifile ]

macskickass · March 10, 2002 4:23PM

[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:

Of course the liberal knee jerk reaction is to blame white racism for everything.<hr></blockquote>

Of course the white racist conservative reaction is to blame everything on liberals.

nonhuman · March 10, 2002 4:23PM

[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:

Of course the liberal knee jerk reaction is to blame white racism for everything.<hr></blockquote>

Which brings up an interesting point. When not at school in Minnesota, I live in Berkeley and Oakland in California (parents are divorced thus two houses...). While there is some white racism, what I've run into the most is black racism. There have been many many times when I've been made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome, unwanted, and on the very rare occasion fearful for no reason other than that I am white and in a predominately black area (not that Berkeley and Oakland are, but parts of them are). And it is black racism mostly, not non-white racism. While it does exist, I almost never get the same hostility from Hispanics who are vastly more numerous or Asians who are also pretty numerous.

The only times I've really experience white racism is when we lived in New Jersey (where we were in a small town, and previous to that way out in the Pine Barrens).

[ 03-10-2002: Message edited by: nonhuman ]

brussell · March 10, 2002 4:26PM

<a href="http://www.sciam.com/2000/1000issue/1000numbers.html"; target="_blank">Here's another article about homicides</a> in the southern US vs. the world. Look at Alaska - even though it's more north, it still has higher homicide rates compared to Canada.

<a href="http://reason.com/9702/bk.wright.shtml"; target="_blank">Here's a review of the theory torifile and Scott_H are talking about - the culture of honor in the South.</a>

[quote]Southerners and Northerners have different attitudes about violence--not across the board (as might be expected) but in certain specific areas, all of which seem linked to notions of honor and respect. Southerners, for example, are more likely to agree that violence is acceptable in defense of home and family and as a mechanism of social control, and they are especially likely to endorse violence as a response to insults and affronts, most of all when they involve women. This pattern suggests a culture in which honor threatened is honor lost and no response to the possible loss of honor is too extreme. Nisbett and Cohen note the evident similarities between this Southern code and the new culture of violence in the inner cities, where "dissing" often leads to death.<hr></blockquote>

What's the deal with the Southern US?

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