wait, so you are saying he? was born male, but was really a lesbian so (s)he had a sex change so he/she(?) could be with other women as a woman? seems a bit extreme to me--what about children? </strong><hr></blockquote>
slow down. i'm kinda confused what exactly that was supposed to mean. could you maybe rephrase?
I suppose arguing about what a "real transsexual is" is relevant, but not really on-topic when we're talking about legalities of giving full marriage rights to those who are transsexuals/transgendered and happen to be married, whether that is legal or not in the state.
There are several degrees of transgenderism...it goes from those who indulge in occasional cross-dressing, to part-time, then fulltime transvestites, to non-operative 'she-males' (with breast augmentation and male organs) to post-operative transgenders. There is a cross-over into the gay community for sure, but the huge majority of (mostly male) 'transpeople' specially the part-timers or 'weekend warriors' are straight, often married, and have felt a 'difference' about themselves from when they were very young and didn't understand what they were feeling. Many get into repeated attempts to quit, out of guilt or shame, but the desire, no matter how heavily suppressed as a rule doesn't go away.
One thing for sure, out of every transgendered person who undergoes the complete series of treatments to become of the opposite gender, there are many, many more who are of the 'part-time' variety. This whole phenomenon is a lot more common than some folk think. I once read a survey done in a major northwest university (I shall look for the link), in which the male population was asked a question which went something like... "have you at any time or the other dressed in clothing designed for the opposite sex?" Out of several thousand replies, over 40% said "yes".
Although transgendered folk tend to congregate in larger cities like L.A., New York, San Francisco etc, they exist no matter where you are; I cannot imagine the kind of hostility an openly transgendered person would get in rural America, such as in a farming community in Oklahoma or in Hicksville, Alabama.
Most of what I have learned about 'trans-people' is from a friend of mine in Hollywood who is a "male-female" and is a very well-adjusted human being, in a stable, loving (not yet married) relationship with a man. Believe me, if some people find life tough, its a picnic in the park compared to the sh1t that society throws at these people, from intolerance, discrimination, insults, abuse, verbal and physical violence, you name it. I think that much of the violence thrown at these people is of the same breed that is common to 'hate-crimes', which are fear-motivated, and are perpetrated by severely prejudiced people who just cannot come to terms with those who are 'different'...and also insecure men who feel that their sexuality is being threatened when they meet a 'tranny'.
There seem to be some people on this board who seem to think that "transgenderism" is a casual choice, and they want to "become something they are not". It seems "that something they are not" is the biological gender of the body were born into, and condemned to live within, until modern medicine can come to the rescue.
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>any get into repeated attempts to quit, out of guilt or shame, but the desire, no matter how heavily suppressed as a rule doesn't go away.
There seem to be some people on this board who seem to think that "transgenderism" is a casual choice, and they want to "become something they are not". It seems "that something they are not" is the biological gender of the body were born into, and condemned to live within, until modern medicine can come to the rescue.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't discriminate. I don't hate. I wouldn't treat someone I knew was a transgender any different than a non-transgendered person--though I would generally treat them as I would treat the sex which they are, or are at the time at least. (I hope that makes sense.)
However, how you've put it that people can't suppress these "desires" to look and act like the opposite sex is not a "lifestyle choice" in my opinion, it smacks of "psychological condition," if you ask me. When it boils down to the essence of your being, you are what you are, and no superficial operation or hormone pill or fetching shade of transvestite lipstick can change that. It's just pretending. Now, WHY people do this, I would like to understand. Were they sexually abused as a child? As an adult? Did they not have a stable parent figure of the same sex, or opposite sex? Did their parents confuse them about sexuality, or perhaps oppress sexuality altogether? Did they discover at an early age that someone in their family was a cross-dresser or transgendered? Did they not get enough attention as a child, as a teenager, or as an adult? Who knows... I do believe that most transgendered have PSYCHOLOGICAL problems, not physical or genetic ones. In my opinion the only people truly deserving of the name "transgender" are those who have an actual chromosomal defect (a real sex chromosome variation, such as a Klinefelter's male or 47-49 chromosomes compared to the normal 46). At serious risk of sounding insensitive, I feel that otherwise you're just a crossdresser, maybe even with some grotesque bodymods, who thinks he/she/it/he-she/she-he/whatever has something to prove. That's the sad part, that they can't accept who they are or how they developed.
I don't discriminate. I don't hate. I wouldn't treat someone I knew was a transgender any different than a non-transgendered person--though I would generally treat them as I would treat the sex which they are, or are at the time at least. (I hope that makes sense.)</strong><hr></blockquote>
It makes sense, and it's good to know. Just for semantics sake, you wouldn't treat anyone you knew was transgendered, not a transgender. does that make sense?
[quote]<strong>
However, how you've put it that people can't suppress these "desires" to look and act like the opposite sex is not a "lifestyle choice" in my opinion, it smacks of "psychological condition," </strong><hr></blockquote>
interesting idea, but i don't think that the American Psychological Association agrees with you.
[quote]<strong>if you ask me. When it boils down to the essence of your being, you are what you are,</strong><hr></blockquote>
which is the same argument that could be used to argue the opposite argument you are making here. People who are transgendered feel that is who they are. MTFs (Male To Female) feel that they are women. FTMs (Female to Male) feel that they are men.
[quote]<strong>and no superficial operation or hormone pill or fetching shade of transvestite lipstick can change that. It's just pretending. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure I would put sex reassignment in the superifical operation category. On a side note, most plastic surgery IS superficial. Do you feel the same way about plastic surgery as you do sex reassignment surgery? After all, if you are old, you are old. Having an operation to make you young is just pretending.
[quote]<strong>Now, WHY people do this, I would like to understand. Were they sexually abused as a child? As an adult?</strong><hr></blockquote>
If being transgendered were linked to sexual abuse, the transgendered community would be much larger than it is now. But the simple fact of the matter is that being sexually abused has no effect on your sexuality. (I'll talk about sexuality a little more later on.)
[quote]<strong>Did they not have a stable parent figure of the same sex, or opposite sex?<hr></blockquote></strong>
Just like what I said above, if this were the case, the transgendered community would be much larger.
[quote]<strong>Did their parents confuse them about sexuality, or perhaps oppress sexuality altogether?<hr></blockquote></strong>
And if this were the case, most people in the United States would have been transgendered in generations past. Sexuality in this country has been oppressed for generations. But most people living in these sexually oppressed times were not transgendered. Although, one could argue that this oppression is one of the root causes of homophobia and transphobia.
[quote]<strong>In my opinion the only people truly deserving of the name "transgender" are those who have an actual chromosomal defect (a real sex chromosome variation, such as a Klinefelter's male or 47-49 chromosomes compared to the normal 46).<hr></blockquote></strong>
You have a right to this opinion. But I also have a right to tell you why I disagree with you. Transgendered is generally defined as "an umbrella term for those 'gender outlaws' who blur the lines of 'traditional' gender expression. Transgendered people include or have been referred to as transvestites, transsexuals, drag queens and kings, cross-dressers, and berdaches, to name just a few." (Source: National Museum & Archive of Lesbian and Gay History, The Gay Almanac, New York, New York, Berkley Book, 1996.) People with the medical conditions you name above already have terms that describe them.
[quote]<strong>That's the sad part, that they can't accept who they are or how they developed.
Still, to each his own.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I would argue here that they have accepted who they are. And that they are acting upon this acceptance.
Now back to sexuality.
Sexuality is comprised of four components: biological sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, and social sex role. Biological sex is, as it sounds, whether a person is male or female. Gender identity is the psychological sense of being either male or female, and does not necessarily match your biological sex. Sexual orientation is the lasting emotional, romantic, and sexual attraction to a certain sex. Social sex role is determined the a person's adherence to the social norms for feminine or masculine behavior.
I know most people didn't bother to read all of this. I know that it is long. Sorry. But to those that did, hope you learned something. cheers.
I'd quote you and all that, but I really don't have much to say in reply to what you've said--I just respectfully disagree on some of the points.
The parts about what may be related to the cause of 'transgenderedness,' however, I simply cannot let slip by. Your logic is flawed. I made suggestions of all too viable possibilities that may contribute to the end result of a desire to be transgendered (to have a 'gender identity' different from your 'biological sex' as you so well put it in your educational part at the bottom). You said that if those things were in actuality some of the cause(s) of transgenderedness, there would be more transgendered folk. Why is that flawed logic? Because there is no way to prove that ALL kinds of sexual abuse or sexual repression or all of the other-sex-related cases I suggested as causes are the same, and that ALL people respond to ALL of them the same way, and ALL of those results would HAVE to be a desire to be transgendered, and NO ONE would repress it. Obviously, you can see how that would be a seriously flawed argument, if you had elaborated on that point. If you don't understand that, here's an analogy. I say "Most everybody knows that Windows is boring." You say, "No, that can't be true, or more people would have Macs." The flaw with that argument is the logic that if people do see Windows as boring, that they would HAVE to get/use/buy a Mac.
In any case, all you've said about gender identity vs. biological gender has only reinforced my theory that the desire to be transgendered in anyway is indeed a psychological 'issue' (I'd call it a condition, personally, but as I said, to each his own).
<strong>There's a lot of misinformation in this thread.
Powerdoc, the people you are referring to as "true transsexuals" are actually ambiguously gendered and can have either an xy chromosome pair, or an xx pair. Transexuals are in no way automatically attracted to their original gender. Their own gender issues are not an integral part of their sexual preference.
pi</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is no contradiction with what i say, i just give a example, of a true transexual who have a penis surgery, i did not say that they where all in that case.
My point is that at the exception of true transexual, i think that people should not be allowed to change of civil status or being married. Married deal with social status : a man and a woman. There is no obligatioin to be married or to have childs, but it is the right of a state to promote it. What is the interest of beein married if you are a transexual : believing that you have really change of sex is a mirage.
In France we have created the PACS, it's not a mariage but a contract of communauty life between two persons : i have nothing against this and it's a good solution for people who want to live in a different way and who wanted to be recocnize.
bradbower, what about people with CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome?)
Unlike people with Klinefelter's Syndrome, these people don't have an additional X chromosome. They are chromosomally male (XY.) However, these people also have:
1) a vagina (but no uterus) instead of a penis
2) undescended testes
3) a female outward appearance after puberty
These people are not affected by androgens like testosterone, meaning they usually end up being ultra-feminine in appearance.
If they are what they are, what the hell are they? And do chemical imbalances in the brain or other less drastic abnormalities play a role in determining who is a 'true transsexual?'
<strong>I'd quote you and all that, but I really don't have much to say in reply to what you've said--I just respectfully disagree on some of the points.
...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, I respectfully disagree with you too. It's nice to know that we can agree on something.
OK. I'll admit that my argument was flawed. (So now we agree on two things :eek: !) So here's another one that is less flawed. And shorter too!
The American Psychological Association says that is is not an illness, mental disorder or emotional problem. End of argument.
Comments
I'm off-topic?! You're offtopic! This whole damn board is off-topic!!
Wait, wait, wait, I got a better one.
The topic? You can't HANDLE THE TOPIC!!
<strong>
wait, so you are saying he? was born male, but was really a lesbian so (s)he had a sex change so he/she(?) could be with other women as a woman? seems a bit extreme to me--what about children?
slow down. i'm kinda confused what exactly that was supposed to mean. could you maybe rephrase?
<strong>Most of you are off-topic.
I'm off-topic?! You're offtopic! This whole damn board is off-topic!!
Wait, wait, wait, I got a better one.
The topic? You can't HANDLE THE TOPIC!!</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
I suppose arguing about what a "real transsexual is" is relevant, but not really on-topic when we're talking about legalities of giving full marriage rights to those who are transsexuals/transgendered and happen to be married, whether that is legal or not in the state.
One thing for sure, out of every transgendered person who undergoes the complete series of treatments to become of the opposite gender, there are many, many more who are of the 'part-time' variety. This whole phenomenon is a lot more common than some folk think. I once read a survey done in a major northwest university (I shall look for the link), in which the male population was asked a question which went something like... "have you at any time or the other dressed in clothing designed for the opposite sex?" Out of several thousand replies, over 40% said "yes".
Although transgendered folk tend to congregate in larger cities like L.A., New York, San Francisco etc, they exist no matter where you are; I cannot imagine the kind of hostility an openly transgendered person would get in rural America, such as in a farming community in Oklahoma or in Hicksville, Alabama.
Most of what I have learned about 'trans-people' is from a friend of mine in Hollywood who is a "male-female" and is a very well-adjusted human being, in a stable, loving (not yet married) relationship with a man. Believe me, if some people find life tough, its a picnic in the park compared to the sh1t that society throws at these people, from intolerance, discrimination, insults, abuse, verbal and physical violence, you name it. I think that much of the violence thrown at these people is of the same breed that is common to 'hate-crimes', which are fear-motivated, and are perpetrated by severely prejudiced people who just cannot come to terms with those who are 'different'...and also insecure men who feel that their sexuality is being threatened when they meet a 'tranny'.
There seem to be some people on this board who seem to think that "transgenderism" is a casual choice, and they want to "become something they are not". It seems "that something they are not" is the biological gender of the body were born into, and condemned to live within, until modern medicine can come to the rescue.
<strong>any get into repeated attempts to quit, out of guilt or shame, but the desire, no matter how heavily suppressed as a rule doesn't go away.
There seem to be some people on this board who seem to think that "transgenderism" is a casual choice, and they want to "become something they are not". It seems "that something they are not" is the biological gender of the body were born into, and condemned to live within, until modern medicine can come to the rescue.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't discriminate. I don't hate. I wouldn't treat someone I knew was a transgender any different than a non-transgendered person--though I would generally treat them as I would treat the sex which they are, or are at the time at least. (I hope that makes sense.)
However, how you've put it that people can't suppress these "desires" to look and act like the opposite sex is not a "lifestyle choice" in my opinion, it smacks of "psychological condition," if you ask me. When it boils down to the essence of your being, you are what you are, and no superficial operation or hormone pill or fetching shade of transvestite lipstick can change that. It's just pretending. Now, WHY people do this, I would like to understand. Were they sexually abused as a child? As an adult? Did they not have a stable parent figure of the same sex, or opposite sex? Did their parents confuse them about sexuality, or perhaps oppress sexuality altogether? Did they discover at an early age that someone in their family was a cross-dresser or transgendered? Did they not get enough attention as a child, as a teenager, or as an adult? Who knows... I do believe that most transgendered have PSYCHOLOGICAL problems, not physical or genetic ones. In my opinion the only people truly deserving of the name "transgender" are those who have an actual chromosomal defect (a real sex chromosome variation, such as a Klinefelter's male or 47-49 chromosomes compared to the normal 46). At serious risk of sounding insensitive, I feel that otherwise you're just a crossdresser, maybe even with some grotesque bodymods, who thinks he/she/it/he-she/she-he/whatever has something to prove. That's the sad part, that they can't accept who they are or how they developed.
Still, to each his own.
That's all I have to say.
Have a nice day.
I don't discriminate. I don't hate. I wouldn't treat someone I knew was a transgender any different than a non-transgendered person--though I would generally treat them as I would treat the sex which they are, or are at the time at least. (I hope that makes sense.)</strong><hr></blockquote>
It makes sense, and it's good to know. Just for semantics sake, you wouldn't treat anyone you knew was transgendered, not a transgender. does that make sense?
[quote]<strong>
However, how you've put it that people can't suppress these "desires" to look and act like the opposite sex is not a "lifestyle choice" in my opinion, it smacks of "psychological condition," </strong><hr></blockquote>
interesting idea, but i don't think that the American Psychological Association agrees with you.
[quote]<strong>if you ask me. When it boils down to the essence of your being, you are what you are,</strong><hr></blockquote>
which is the same argument that could be used to argue the opposite argument you are making here. People who are transgendered feel that is who they are. MTFs (Male To Female) feel that they are women. FTMs (Female to Male) feel that they are men.
[quote]<strong>and no superficial operation or hormone pill or fetching shade of transvestite lipstick can change that. It's just pretending. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure I would put sex reassignment in the superifical operation category. On a side note, most plastic surgery IS superficial. Do you feel the same way about plastic surgery as you do sex reassignment surgery? After all, if you are old, you are old. Having an operation to make you young is just pretending.
[quote]<strong>Now, WHY people do this, I would like to understand. Were they sexually abused as a child? As an adult?</strong><hr></blockquote>
If being transgendered were linked to sexual abuse, the transgendered community would be much larger than it is now. But the simple fact of the matter is that being sexually abused has no effect on your sexuality. (I'll talk about sexuality a little more later on.)
[quote]<strong>Did they not have a stable parent figure of the same sex, or opposite sex?<hr></blockquote></strong>
Just like what I said above, if this were the case, the transgendered community would be much larger.
[quote]<strong>Did their parents confuse them about sexuality, or perhaps oppress sexuality altogether?<hr></blockquote></strong>
And if this were the case, most people in the United States would have been transgendered in generations past. Sexuality in this country has been oppressed for generations. But most people living in these sexually oppressed times were not transgendered. Although, one could argue that this oppression is one of the root causes of homophobia and transphobia.
[quote]<strong>In my opinion the only people truly deserving of the name "transgender" are those who have an actual chromosomal defect (a real sex chromosome variation, such as a Klinefelter's male or 47-49 chromosomes compared to the normal 46).<hr></blockquote></strong>
You have a right to this opinion. But I also have a right to tell you why I disagree with you. Transgendered is generally defined as "an umbrella term for those 'gender outlaws' who blur the lines of 'traditional' gender expression. Transgendered people include or have been referred to as transvestites, transsexuals, drag queens and kings, cross-dressers, and berdaches, to name just a few." (Source: National Museum & Archive of Lesbian and Gay History, The Gay Almanac, New York, New York, Berkley Book, 1996.) People with the medical conditions you name above already have terms that describe them.
[quote]<strong>That's the sad part, that they can't accept who they are or how they developed.
Still, to each his own.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I would argue here that they have accepted who they are. And that they are acting upon this acceptance.
Now back to sexuality.
Sexuality is comprised of four components: biological sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, and social sex role. Biological sex is, as it sounds, whether a person is male or female. Gender identity is the psychological sense of being either male or female, and does not necessarily match your biological sex. Sexual orientation is the lasting emotional, romantic, and sexual attraction to a certain sex. Social sex role is determined the a person's adherence to the social norms for feminine or masculine behavior.
I know most people didn't bother to read all of this. I know that it is long. Sorry. But to those that did, hope you learned something. cheers.
EDIT: I did proofread, I swear I did!
[ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: Stroszek ]</p>
The parts about what may be related to the cause of 'transgenderedness,' however, I simply cannot let slip by. Your logic is flawed. I made suggestions of all too viable possibilities that may contribute to the end result of a desire to be transgendered (to have a 'gender identity' different from your 'biological sex' as you so well put it in your educational part at the bottom). You said that if those things were in actuality some of the cause(s) of transgenderedness, there would be more transgendered folk. Why is that flawed logic? Because there is no way to prove that ALL kinds of sexual abuse or sexual repression or all of the other-sex-related cases I suggested as causes are the same, and that ALL people respond to ALL of them the same way, and ALL of those results would HAVE to be a desire to be transgendered, and NO ONE would repress it. Obviously, you can see how that would be a seriously flawed argument, if you had elaborated on that point. If you don't understand that, here's an analogy. I say "Most everybody knows that Windows is boring." You say, "No, that can't be true, or more people would have Macs." The flaw with that argument is the logic that if people do see Windows as boring, that they would HAVE to get/use/buy a Mac.
In any case, all you've said about gender identity vs. biological gender has only reinforced my theory that the desire to be transgendered in anyway is indeed a psychological 'issue' (I'd call it a condition, personally, but as I said, to each his own).
<strong>There's a lot of misinformation in this thread.
Powerdoc, the people you are referring to as "true transsexuals" are actually ambiguously gendered and can have either an xy chromosome pair, or an xx pair. Transexuals are in no way automatically attracted to their original gender. Their own gender issues are not an integral part of their sexual preference.
pi</strong><hr></blockquote>
There is no contradiction with what i say, i just give a example, of a true transexual who have a penis surgery, i did not say that they where all in that case.
My point is that at the exception of true transexual, i think that people should not be allowed to change of civil status or being married. Married deal with social status : a man and a woman. There is no obligatioin to be married or to have childs, but it is the right of a state to promote it. What is the interest of beein married if you are a transexual : believing that you have really change of sex is a mirage.
In France we have created the PACS, it's not a mariage but a contract of communauty life between two persons : i have nothing against this and it's a good solution for people who want to live in a different way and who wanted to be recocnize.
Unlike people with Klinefelter's Syndrome, these people don't have an additional X chromosome. They are chromosomally male (XY.) However, these people also have:
1) a vagina (but no uterus) instead of a penis
2) undescended testes
3) a female outward appearance after puberty
These people are not affected by androgens like testosterone, meaning they usually end up being ultra-feminine in appearance.
If they are what they are, what the hell are they? And do chemical imbalances in the brain or other less drastic abnormalities play a role in determining who is a 'true transsexual?'
[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
<strong>I'd quote you and all that, but I really don't have much to say in reply to what you've said--I just respectfully disagree on some of the points.
...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, I respectfully disagree with you too. It's nice to know that we can agree on something.
OK. I'll admit that my argument was flawed. (So now we agree on two things :eek: !) So here's another one that is less flawed. And shorter too!
The American Psychological Association says that is is not an illness, mental disorder or emotional problem. End of argument.
Now it's nap time. Cheers.