One thing you all are forgetting is that when you do start scrolling with your touch pad/scroll wheel, the scroll bar with proportional content indication then appears.
1) on the iphone/pad, you can't drag the scroll bar thumbnail - we're hoping that on the mac you can still grab and drag the thumbnail
2) You've taken some information that was available to me at a glance, (that I use on a regular basis) and have now hidden it. Now I have to scroll when I dont' want to in order to just see some information. You're effectively saying that on a 24 or 27 inch screen monitor that extra 1/8th of an inch is so important to your visibility that you have to hide the scroll bar?
Seriously... multi-page article on scroll bars. Dozens of you talking about it? Are you kidding me?
And yet, you're reading it. And responding to the comments.
Personally, I think this is exactly the kind of article that should be posted on AppleInsider. First, because it shows a possible future for the OS, instead of just rehashing the news about existing products. Hence, the "insider" bit. Second, because it directly deals with the user interface of the MacOS. This is pretty much the biggest thing the Mac has to offer. Certainly Windows is comparible in functionality - if not more capable. What makes the Mac the Mac is the interface. So potential changes to that interface should be discussed. Is the change better? Will it improve the experience? Will it help keep the competition at bay? All good questions.
Snow Leopard already has hints of this. The scroll bar in the Dock's Grid view of folders is dark and brightens on mouse-over or when in motion. A Snow Leopard misstep toward a no-scrollbar experience is if you select and view many items with Quick Look, you get no indication of where you are in multiple pages of preview icons.
Sounds like they're in a testing/transition period, trying out several new scroll bar styles, looking for a common possibility across all apps, if one exists.
So you really can't whine about not knowing how big the document is, because as soon as you start scrolling you can see how much. Exactly the same way it works on your iPad and iPhone. And how do you know without the trivial movement of an index finger that there's more stuff to scroll to? Cuz the content is likely to be chopped off at the bottom!
Exactly. The whole 'but now I have no idea if there is more content' argument sounds like a Captain Obvious statement from someone who recently read some book about UI design from the Windows 3.11 days. With a magic mouse or trackpad you'd probably only have to touch it with two fingers to bring up the scroll bar. Sure, that means you have to move your finger a few mm very now and then to see how much content there is, which isn't an improvement compared to static scroll bars, but I think the advantage of not spoiling precious screen estate far outweighs that. Especially on smaller screens like the 13" MacBook ones, the scroll bars actually start to add up to over an inch of wasted pixels in the horizontal direction with some windows.
Removing the title bar on the other hand doesn't seem like a good idea to me, but I can't imagine it will simply be removed without something replacing it's function.
Exactly. The whole 'but now I have no idea if there is more content' argument sounds like a Captain Obvious statement from someone who recently read some book about UI design from the Windows 3.11 days. With a magic mouse or trackpad you'd probably only have to touch it with two fingers to bring up the scroll bar. Sure, that means you have to move your finger a few mm very now and then to see how much content there is, which isn't an improvement compared to static scroll bars, but I think the advantage of not spoiling precious screen estate far outweighs that. Especially on smaller screens like the 13" MacBook ones, the scroll bars actually start to add up to over an inch of wasted pixels in the horizontal direction with some windows.
Removing the title bar on the other hand doesn't seem like a good idea to me, but I can't imagine it will simply be removed without something replacing it's function.
It's not just 'touching the mouse or trackpad.' You first have to navigate the pointer to the right window and then to the portion of the window that you want to know if it can be scrolled.
As to replacing the missing title bar, I'm afraid that's not where Apple seems to be going. Neither iTunes 10, not the Lion apps that were demonstrated identified themselves.
Apple continues down a road I'm not comfortable with. Once a true model for interface consistency, they literally threw the book away and decided that anything goes. Personally, I still want my title bars back. Losing the scroll bars is yet another design decision that I think is too "Apple". You can take the minimalist approach too far. As another reader noted earlier, you soon end up with the buttonless iPod shuffle . While the public hated it, that device probably best epitomizes Steve's vision.
The only thing that Apple needs to do to the scroll bars is to replace that blue Aqua button with something gray. Otherwise, it's fine as is.
I prefer the Aqua look of the early OS X versions to the gray on gray on gray look of iTunes.
Even if a user never touches a scroll bar or scroll button, the persistent visibility of scroll bars is a necessary visual feedback indicator informing the user where he or she is in the document: "Am I half way down?" "Am I at the bottom?" "The top?" Even iOS offers such (very spartan) "lines" indicating where a user is in a document or window.
It is said that Apple uses a focus group of one: Steve Jobs.
I appreciate his efforts at UI coherency and a clutter-free appearance, so long as they don't detract from the Mac's traditional "You learn by using -- not reading a thick manual," and feature discovery via the user just using the Mac.
But how does a novice aim at a scroll bar that is invisible? How does a user aim at a Safari Close Tab button that is invisible? How does a user aim at QuickTime Player controls that are invisible?
Not us Power Users, but average Mac users need to know what they're looking for, what they're aiming for. If that comes at the expense of a little clutter (as a necessary evil) then it should be done in the users' interests.
Aesthetics are an important priority, until, that is, when form overtakes function.
The way it will work is this: when the window first opens, the scrollbar will flash briefly (drawing your attention to it's existence, and showing what percentage of content you are viewing) and then disappear.
You won't have to "find" it to scroll because you don't scroll by dragging a bar anymore, you scroll by swiping on the Magic Mouse or Trackpad.
If you don't have a Magic Mouse or Trackpad you either buy one or continue to use the version of OS X that duh, actually matches your hardware, i.e. the one that came with it.
The way it will work is this: when the window first opens, the scrollbar will flash briefly (drawing your attention to it's existence, and showing what percentage of content you are viewing) and then disappear.
You won't have to "find" it to scroll because you don't scroll by dragging a bar anymore, you scroll by swiping on the Magic Mouse or Trackpad.
If you don't have a Magic Mouse or Trackpad you either buy one or continue to use the version of OS X that duh, actually matches your hardware, i.e. the one that came with it.
My thoughts as well.
For people worrying about how they're supposed to scroll if they have a mouse with no scroll wheel-- you actually have to go pretty far out of your way to operate a modern Mac that way. If you are the minority buying a desktop, and the minority tossing the mouse that came with your system, and refuse to replace it with a mouse with a scroll wheel for mysterious reasons, then, I suppose, you might find this inconvenient (if it even is, we actually don't know anything about the implementation).
But remember Apple builds integrated systems, all the parts, hardware and software, are supposed to work together. If the OS is favoring touch scrolling, then Apple will provide you with the means of doing that really well, either on the current hardware or as retroactive add ons.
At some point, being stubbornly against the idea of touch scrolling and wanting to know how you're supposed to move a cursor to the right place is like railing against how the menu bar or the dock works.
I like the idea of an indicator that you aren’t at the end, but I love the scrollbars disappearing as I haven’t used them since getting a scrolling trackpad.
I find that visual indicator very useful and think it's an unhelpful move to get rid of it or to minimise it too much.
For intance, Photoshop has a lot of poky little things that become a hindrance rather than a help trying to hit them accurately in the heat of a tight deadline.
I hope it's not simply to 'encourage' people to buy something like a trackpad, however nice it may be, before they really need it.
Scrollbars do have their use, but we have so many other ways to scroll (spacebar, 2-finger drag, scrollwheel, page down key) nowadays that I'm completely fine with them being hidden when not in use. In fact, I actively attempt (at least in Finder) to size my windows so the scrollbar disappears if possible, so I'm already 1/2 towards what Apple's getting at in 10.7. Perhaps there could be some type of mouseover event that would make the scrollbars reappear if 10.7 detected the user's pointer near the edge of a window? That would let those who click to page down/up to continue to do so.
Scrollbars are for scrolling, but they also show you how far down on the page (or document) you are, and how much more of the page (or document) there is to go. When you get rid of scrollbars now, it's because you've enlarged the window so that the whole page is visible. If the page is longer than that, it can be helpful to look at the scrollbar and see how much more of the page there is below (use this comment page as an example). I do it automatically, without thinking about it. I predict people will miss that aspect of scroll bars.
Also, using the Apple Mouse, when the scrolling ball gets stuck, you have to use the scroll bar to scroll - how are you going to do that if it's invisible, and only comes into view when you start scrolling?
In the presentation, Federighi also explicitly noted in passing that the green button is now considered a full screen app button rather than the "zoom to the largest window size that makes sense" that it always has been on the Mac.
About time...
I also don't mind the disappearing scroll bars. I can't remember, at least on the Mac, using the arrow buttons or grabbing the elevator to scroll around. Between the touchpad on my MacBook Pro, the magic trackpad on my Mac Pro or the might mouse on my Mac Pro with the scroll wheel, the scroll bar is just really not that necessary these days.
i'd like to know when apple is going to put the 'track pad' to the right (i'm right-handed?or to the left) of the keyboard.
i've used a wacom for years. whenever i use a laptop, it's completely counter-intuitive.
when i'm on the laptop, my right hand doesn't naturally gravitate toward the middle, and i always struggle with the trackpad movements. it seems about time that apple considered this.
any thoughts?
It's time you deal with the trackpad in the middle. Apple will NOT place the trackpad to either side. Why you ask? Because it would piss off people who are dominant with the other hand.
Comments
One thing you all are forgetting is that when you do start scrolling with your touch pad/scroll wheel, the scroll bar with proportional content indication then appears.
1) on the iphone/pad, you can't drag the scroll bar thumbnail - we're hoping that on the mac you can still grab and drag the thumbnail
2) You've taken some information that was available to me at a glance, (that I use on a regular basis) and have now hidden it. Now I have to scroll when I dont' want to in order to just see some information. You're effectively saying that on a 24 or 27 inch screen monitor that extra 1/8th of an inch is so important to your visibility that you have to hide the scroll bar?
Seriously... multi-page article on scroll bars. Dozens of you talking about it? Are you kidding me?
And yet, you're reading it. And responding to the comments.
Personally, I think this is exactly the kind of article that should be posted on AppleInsider. First, because it shows a possible future for the OS, instead of just rehashing the news about existing products. Hence, the "insider" bit. Second, because it directly deals with the user interface of the MacOS. This is pretty much the biggest thing the Mac has to offer. Certainly Windows is comparible in functionality - if not more capable. What makes the Mac the Mac is the interface. So potential changes to that interface should be discussed. Is the change better? Will it improve the experience? Will it help keep the competition at bay? All good questions.
Yawn.
3 pages of link bait to say...
Lion is going to have a different looking UI to Snow leopard.
Well colour me shocked.
Now give me back the last 4 mins of my life.
There has got to be something better to blog about??
Why did you even post? It's a big deal to figure out of the next version of OS X is removing scrollbars.
So you really can't whine about not knowing how big the document is, because as soon as you start scrolling you can see how much. Exactly the same way it works on your iPad and iPhone. And how do you know without the trivial movement of an index finger that there's more stuff to scroll to? Cuz the content is likely to be chopped off at the bottom!
Exactly. The whole 'but now I have no idea if there is more content' argument sounds like a Captain Obvious statement from someone who recently read some book about UI design from the Windows 3.11 days. With a magic mouse or trackpad you'd probably only have to touch it with two fingers to bring up the scroll bar. Sure, that means you have to move your finger a few mm very now and then to see how much content there is, which isn't an improvement compared to static scroll bars, but I think the advantage of not spoiling precious screen estate far outweighs that. Especially on smaller screens like the 13" MacBook ones, the scroll bars actually start to add up to over an inch of wasted pixels in the horizontal direction with some windows.
Removing the title bar on the other hand doesn't seem like a good idea to me, but I can't imagine it will simply be removed without something replacing it's function.
Doubt that would ever happen. Keyboards take up lots of horizontal space, and need to be centered. Trackpads also take up space.
Plus the trackpad in the center can be thumb-controlled without losing keyboard resting position for typing.
Now, if they released a keyboard + trackpad combo device, I'd get it in an instant.
They (Apple) did release it. Just not as a single piece devise, so you can put the Magic Trackpad where you please.
So you have to start scrolling to find out if there's something to scroll? That's exactly the problem with hidden scrollbars.
Exactly. The whole 'but now I have no idea if there is more content' argument sounds like a Captain Obvious statement from someone who recently read some book about UI design from the Windows 3.11 days. With a magic mouse or trackpad you'd probably only have to touch it with two fingers to bring up the scroll bar. Sure, that means you have to move your finger a few mm very now and then to see how much content there is, which isn't an improvement compared to static scroll bars, but I think the advantage of not spoiling precious screen estate far outweighs that. Especially on smaller screens like the 13" MacBook ones, the scroll bars actually start to add up to over an inch of wasted pixels in the horizontal direction with some windows.
Removing the title bar on the other hand doesn't seem like a good idea to me, but I can't imagine it will simply be removed without something replacing it's function.
It's not just 'touching the mouse or trackpad.' You first have to navigate the pointer to the right window and then to the portion of the window that you want to know if it can be scrolled.
As to replacing the missing title bar, I'm afraid that's not where Apple seems to be going. Neither iTunes 10, not the Lion apps that were demonstrated identified themselves.
Apple continues down a road I'm not comfortable with. Once a true model for interface consistency, they literally threw the book away and decided that anything goes. Personally, I still want my title bars back. Losing the scroll bars is yet another design decision that I think is too "Apple". You can take the minimalist approach too far. As another reader noted earlier, you soon end up with the buttonless iPod shuffle . While the public hated it, that device probably best epitomizes Steve's vision.
The only thing that Apple needs to do to the scroll bars is to replace that blue Aqua button with something gray. Otherwise, it's fine as is.
I prefer the Aqua look of the early OS X versions to the gray on gray on gray look of iTunes.
Even if a user never touches a scroll bar or scroll button, the persistent visibility of scroll bars is a necessary visual feedback indicator informing the user where he or she is in the document: "Am I half way down?" "Am I at the bottom?" "The top?" Even iOS offers such (very spartan) "lines" indicating where a user is in a document or window.
It is said that Apple uses a focus group of one: Steve Jobs.
I appreciate his efforts at UI coherency and a clutter-free appearance, so long as they don't detract from the Mac's traditional "You learn by using -- not reading a thick manual," and feature discovery via the user just using the Mac.
But how does a novice aim at a scroll bar that is invisible? How does a user aim at a Safari Close Tab button that is invisible? How does a user aim at QuickTime Player controls that are invisible?
Not us Power Users, but average Mac users need to know what they're looking for, what they're aiming for. If that comes at the expense of a little clutter (as a necessary evil) then it should be done in the users' interests.
Aesthetics are an important priority, until, that is, when form overtakes function.
defender
.
You won't have to "find" it to scroll because you don't scroll by dragging a bar anymore, you scroll by swiping on the Magic Mouse or Trackpad.
If you don't have a Magic Mouse or Trackpad you either buy one or continue to use the version of OS X that duh, actually matches your hardware, i.e. the one that came with it.
The way it will work is this: when the window first opens, the scrollbar will flash briefly (drawing your attention to it's existence, and showing what percentage of content you are viewing) and then disappear.
You won't have to "find" it to scroll because you don't scroll by dragging a bar anymore, you scroll by swiping on the Magic Mouse or Trackpad.
If you don't have a Magic Mouse or Trackpad you either buy one or continue to use the version of OS X that duh, actually matches your hardware, i.e. the one that came with it.
My thoughts as well.
For people worrying about how they're supposed to scroll if they have a mouse with no scroll wheel-- you actually have to go pretty far out of your way to operate a modern Mac that way. If you are the minority buying a desktop, and the minority tossing the mouse that came with your system, and refuse to replace it with a mouse with a scroll wheel for mysterious reasons, then, I suppose, you might find this inconvenient (if it even is, we actually don't know anything about the implementation).
But remember Apple builds integrated systems, all the parts, hardware and software, are supposed to work together. If the OS is favoring touch scrolling, then Apple will provide you with the means of doing that really well, either on the current hardware or as retroactive add ons.
At some point, being stubbornly against the idea of touch scrolling and wanting to know how you're supposed to move a cursor to the right place is like railing against how the menu bar or the dock works.
I like the idea of an indicator that you aren’t at the end, but I love the scrollbars disappearing as I haven’t used them since getting a scrolling trackpad.
I find that visual indicator very useful and think it's an unhelpful move to get rid of it or to minimise it too much.
For intance, Photoshop has a lot of poky little things that become a hindrance rather than a help trying to hit them accurately in the heat of a tight deadline.
I hope it's not simply to 'encourage' people to buy something like a trackpad, however nice it may be, before they really need it.
Scrollbars do have their use, but we have so many other ways to scroll (spacebar, 2-finger drag, scrollwheel, page down key) nowadays that I'm completely fine with them being hidden when not in use. In fact, I actively attempt (at least in Finder) to size my windows so the scrollbar disappears if possible, so I'm already 1/2 towards what Apple's getting at in 10.7. Perhaps there could be some type of mouseover event that would make the scrollbars reappear if 10.7 detected the user's pointer near the edge of a window? That would let those who click to page down/up to continue to do so.
Scrollbars are for scrolling, but they also show you how far down on the page (or document) you are, and how much more of the page (or document) there is to go. When you get rid of scrollbars now, it's because you've enlarged the window so that the whole page is visible. If the page is longer than that, it can be helpful to look at the scrollbar and see how much more of the page there is below (use this comment page as an example). I do it automatically, without thinking about it. I predict people will miss that aspect of scroll bars.
Also, using the Apple Mouse, when the scrolling ball gets stuck, you have to use the scroll bar to scroll - how are you going to do that if it's invisible, and only comes into view when you start scrolling?
In the presentation, Federighi also explicitly noted in passing that the green button is now considered a full screen app button rather than the "zoom to the largest window size that makes sense" that it always has been on the Mac.
About time...
I also don't mind the disappearing scroll bars. I can't remember, at least on the Mac, using the arrow buttons or grabbing the elevator to scroll around. Between the touchpad on my MacBook Pro, the magic trackpad on my Mac Pro or the might mouse on my Mac Pro with the scroll wheel, the scroll bar is just really not that necessary these days.
After Lion, we can't use this:
Actually, you still can. Just use the page up/down or spacebar keys on the keyboard
i'd like to know when apple is going to put the 'track pad' to the right (i'm right-handed?or to the left) of the keyboard.
i've used a wacom for years. whenever i use a laptop, it's completely counter-intuitive.
when i'm on the laptop, my right hand doesn't naturally gravitate toward the middle, and i always struggle with the trackpad movements. it seems about time that apple considered this.
any thoughts?
It's time you deal with the trackpad in the middle. Apple will NOT place the trackpad to either side. Why you ask? Because it would piss off people who are dominant with the other hand.