Android edges Apple iPad as second-most-popular mobile development platform

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  • Reply 81 of 98
    steve-jsteve-j Posts: 320member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    it's much simpler than that. if you aren't using the smartphone features it's not out.?



    Yes, your reasoning is very simple.





    Rarely, however, is reality very simple.
  • Reply 82 of 98
    steve-jsteve-j Posts: 320member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by some internet dude View Post


    And when Google releases there desktop version, will Apple go out of business?.



    Pretty damn unlikely.



    Especially since the desktop has become such a minor part of Apple's business. In case you hadn't noticed, they are now a portable devices company. iOS is the future. The desktop war was lost decades ago.
  • Reply 83 of 98
    steve-jsteve-j Posts: 320member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrochester View Post


    Or do you think they just shouldn't own a phone?





    They absolutely should own a phone. And the phone they own defines who they are as a person, and their worth to society.



    iPhone users are intelligent and wealthy. Just showing your iPhone in a crowd communicates this about you quite subtly and effectively.



    You never see Android phones, because people are ashamed to be seen with one. Same for feature phones. If somebody is seen with one in their hand, you know exactly what sort of unsophisticated slob you are contemplating: Somebody with no taste, or who is poor, or stupid, or probably all three.



    Them people should own phones. But God forbid that the iPhone were to be affordable to them. If so, then it would lose much of its power.































































    [/SARCASM]
  • Reply 84 of 98
    steve-jsteve-j Posts: 320member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by some internet dude View Post


    Lets also not forget the time, money, and effort, put in by Jobs and Apple to the sell there goods. On the flip side Android has gotten very little AD time and has become the number one seller and in market share platform. Can you imagine if they really market/Advertise this thing, well its already a land slide, but you get the idea.



    I think that you identify an important factor, but your knowledge of history is deficient.



    IIRC, Android took off with the Motorola Droid and its advertising campaign. Additionally, I see TV ads from many different handset manufactureres which tout Android as a major feature.
  • Reply 85 of 98
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrochester View Post


    No I'm saying that criticising or belittling Nokia for their lower profit margins in comparison to Apple is a pointless endeavour since they compete in markets that are inherently less profitable, and which Apple have no interest or desire to compete in. That's entirely Nokia and Apple's prerogative, but both approaches are equally as valid as the next.



    How was I criticizing Nokia by stating market segment facts? And I never even mentioned Nokia, that's all you.



    If you would like to go back and reread, I only said that if Android doesn't do well profit-wise in the smartphone segment, it may get pushed down market to feature phones. it is free after all. And that Apple won't care about market share against Android in that case because they would be selling in totally different markets, with Apple staying in the highly profitable one.



    So get off your broken soapbox and stop trying to pick a fight where none exists.
  • Reply 86 of 98
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Steve-J View Post


    It could. But it is totally and completely unreliable.



    Instead, use hard numbers. Facts. Stats.



    They are 100% reliable, if interpreted correctly. Trying to suss out a cause for your perception is not reliable.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Steve-J View Post


    Yes, your reasoning is very simple.





    Rarely, however, is reality very simple.





    Wow, I am so stunned by the shallowness of your response. And how does making a future prognostication turn into a lack of fact attack? Of course I can't provide facts, it hasn't happened yet! Kinda worthless to even ask for them when the statement you are commenting on is predicated on he idea of "if X happens then Y". Especially when you start out by agreeing!



    As for stats, I generally don't like using rules for analyzing data as opposed to the data or resulting analysis itself. And seeing as how nobody is releasing any actual Android sales data, it's kind of hard to even start now isn't it?
  • Reply 87 of 98
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Steve-J View Post


    I think that you identify an important factor, but your knowledge of history is deficient.



    IIRC, Android took off with the Motorola Droid and its advertising campaign. Additionally, I see TV ads from many different handset manufactureres which tout Android as a major feature.



    I second this. Before Android, HTC has zero ads playing on US TV. Now I see one almost every single commercial break for any one of their Android handsets. T-Mobile is also running the MyTouch 4G commercials. And even AT&T is running commercials showcasing Android phones. Add to this the recent Dell Streak commercial.



    The theaters in my area are sponsored by Spirit and they have exclusive ad time. They switched from using the Pal Pre to the Evo in every one of their ads.



    The only commercials I see now for an iDevice is the iPhone Retina Display one and the iPad commercial.
  • Reply 88 of 98
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    How was I criticizing Nokia by stating market segment facts? And I never even mentioned Nokia, that's all you.



    If you would like to go back and reread, I only said that if Android doesn't do well profit-wise in the smartphone segment, it may get pushed down market to feature phones. it is free after all. And that Apple won't care about market share against Android in that case because they would be selling in totally different markets, with Apple staying in the highly profitable one.



    So get off your broken soapbox and stop trying to pick a fight where none exists.



    I'm curious how you think Android isn't doing well profit-wise. As far as I can tell, Google is making a profit on it through ad views and all the OEMs that have released Android phones are making fairly sizable profits.



    Like I said earlier, Android is flexible enough to work on all levels of mobile devices. And since most of the OEMs don't have the same "shall not make an entry-level device" philosophy as Apple (ego?), they open themselves up to be able to profit on more of the market.



    While it probably won't be as profitable as Apple holding onto the top 10% of the market, it's definitely not chump change.
  • Reply 89 of 98
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post


    I'm curious how you think Android isn't doing well profit-wise. As far as I can tell, Google is making a profit on it through ad views and all the OEMs that have released Android phones are making fairly sizable profits.



    Like I said earlier, Android is flexible enough to work on all levels of mobile devices. And since most of the OEMs don't have the same "shall not make an entry-level device" philosophy as Apple (ego?), they open themselves up to be able to profit on more of the market.



    While it probably won't be as profitable as Apple holding onto the top 10% of the market, it's definitely not chump change.



    Android in a phone isn't about Google profits. The decision of when and where to use it over the long run will be in handset maker profits. The handset makers aren't crowing with big quarterly earnings boosts since unleashing a large line of Android handsets.



    The analysts are showing lots of slides projecting big Android market share wins, but whenever profit is mentioned Apple has WAY more than the market share should indicate. That indicates profit issues at the handset maker level. Granted, that is only analyst data, not manufacturer data, but a time proven business maxim is to not pass along specifics of bad news except as required in regulatory filings, and those do not require product line specifics. Lack of those specifics make the analysts low projections of profit just that much more likely in absence of real data. Google couldn't give a rats ass about the handset makers profits because they collect on ad views and across the entire Android ecosystem they are coming out ahead of what they invest. Handset makers will accept this as long as they make a profit, but is a carrier neutral iPhone means they have to submarine prices to move inventory, things will get dicey. I'm not saying it will happen, but I am saying the smartphone handset makers other than Apple aren't running on large profit margins which have lots of cushion in them, and if Android is gaining now only because iPhone is carrier limited those profit margins will be stressed and that may cause different production decisions than we see today.



    I agree on Androids flexibility, and that's why I am saying it could get relegated to the feature phone level should the above happen. I don't think the Android flexibility gives it any inherent advantages because there is no differentiation within the market. The Android market is a series of commodity makers with minimal differentiating features. That kind of market space almost always devolves into low prices and advancing manufacturing techniques to maintain any profit at all. Betting on that kind of game is risky long term.
  • Reply 90 of 98
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    The handset makers aren't crowing with big quarterly earnings boosts since unleashing a large line of Android handsets.



    While all the rest of your post is all well and good, this is what I don't get. From what I've read, the makers are posting big quarterly earnings. While they might not be as huge as Apple's, I don't think they're anything to completely dismiss.



    And there's no indication that any of them are planning to relegate Android to only their featurephones. It seems like all the big ones (HTC, Motorola, LG, Samsung) have very high-end phones planned for Q1. Sporting everything from dual cores to Tegra 2 to LTE capability.



    Before you say it, I know they're mostly rumors at this point. But from past events, they generally do come true.
  • Reply 91 of 98
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post


    While all the rest of your post is all well and good, this is what I don't get. From what I've read, the makers are posting big quarterly earnings. While they might not be as huge as Apple's, I don't think they're anything to completely dismiss.



    And there's no indication that any of them are planning to relegate Android to only their featurephones. It seems like all the big ones (HTC, Motorola, LG, Samsung) have very high-end phones planned for Q1. Sporting everything from dual cores to Tegra 2 to LTE capability.



    Before you say it, I know they're mostly rumors at this point. But from past events, they generally do come true.



    I don't know, but the HTC earnings growth is about a third of Apple's, on supposedly more volume. That just doesn't sound very good considering Apple is currently restricted to ATT, while HTC sells everywhere. When the Android crowd is trying to say their platform rules the world, there isn't a set of numbers out there anywhere that actually backs that up when placed against the context of the whole market not to mention the potential change in that market's constraints over the next six months.
  • Reply 92 of 98
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    I don't know, but the HTC earnings growth is about a third of Apple's, on supposedly more volume. That just doesn't sound very good considering Apple is currently restricted to ATT, while HTC sells everywhere. When the Android crowd is trying to say their platform rules the world, there isn't a set of numbers out there anywhere that actually backs that up when placed against the context of the whole market not to mention the potential change in that market's constraints over the next six months.



    Are these Apple earnings you're comparing to include iPads and iPods? Or is it just iPhones? What about Macs? As far as I know, HTC just makes mobile phone devices (Android and now WP7). Of course I'd expect Apple's combined earnings to be much, much higher than HTC's.



    And what is this "context" that you're referring to? As far as I've been reading, Android is making more and more inroads into the mobile area. Whereas Apple has dominance over the music player market and for the time being, the tablet market.



    It's a given that the market will change in the next 6 months. This line has been used quite a lot in the past. Especially in regards to the iPhone 4's release. Some said that it's release would swamp out Android, but here we are almost 6 months later and Android's going nowhere but up. However, I will give you the possibility of the Verizon iPhone shaking things up a bit...
  • Reply 93 of 98
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post


    Are these Apple earnings you're comparing to include iPads and iPods? Or is it just iPhones? What about Macs? As far as I know, HTC just makes mobile phone devices (Android and now WP7). Of course I'd expect Apple's combined earnings to be much, much higher than HTC's.



    And what is this "context" that you're referring to? As far as I've been reading, Android is making more and more inroads into the mobile area. Whereas Apple has dominance over the music player market and for the time being, the tablet market.



    Total earnings, given that the incredible growth is driven almost entirely by iOS, with a couple few percent contributed by the Mac line, it's a fair comparison and still almost 3-1 even when you strip out the Mac line contribution. See, even trying to parse things in an Android friendly way doesn't matter.





    Quote:

    It's a given that the market will change in the next 6 months. This line has been used quite a lot in the past. Especially in regards to the iPhone 4's release. Some said that it's release would swamp out Android, but here we are almost 6 months later and Android's going nowhere but up. However, I will give you the possibility of the Verizon iPhone shaking things up a bit...



    Lets just wait to see what happens over the first six months of non-ATT restricted iPhone sales. Until then we can go around and around without end. Then the rest of my scenario needs an additional 18-24 months before we know if things go that way or not. It's only a reasoned hunch, but it has a timeline and the metric of sales and earnings will be quite easy to evaluate at that point.
  • Reply 94 of 98
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hiro View Post


    Total earnings, given that the incredible growth is driven almost entirely by iOS, with a couple few percent contributed by the Mac line, it's a fair comparison and still almost 3-1 even when you strip out the Mac line contribution. See, even trying to parse things in an Android friendly way doesn't matter.



    So in HTC's case, you're comparing Apple's total earnings from iPods, iPhone, iPads, and Macs to just HTC's whole lineup of mobile phones? And then saying that because HTC isn't earning as much as Apple, that Android is failing HTC on earnings? Seems like you're trying to parse things against Android.



    Yes, they might not be making as much of a killing as Apple, but they aren't making no profits by using Android.
  • Reply 95 of 98
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post


    So in HTC's case, you're comparing Apple's total earnings from iPods, iPhone, iPads, and Macs to just HTC's whole lineup of mobile phones? And then saying that because HTC isn't earning as much as Apple, that Android is failing HTC on earnings? Seems like you're trying to parse things against Android.



    Yes, they might not be making as much of a killing as Apple, but they aren't making no profits by using Android.





    This diagram shows the relative profit margins of Apple versus HTC.





    HTC is doing much better that the other Android manufacturers. But nowhere near as well as Apple.



    C.
  • Reply 96 of 98
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Carniphage View Post


    HTC is doing much better that the other Android manufacturers. But nowhere near as well as Apple.



    C.



    No arguments from me here. Considering Apple sells multiple devices (besides mobile phones) and offers multimedia products (apps, music, videos) and does iAds, all of which they sell for a premium, I'd expect Apple to have a high margin.
  • Reply 97 of 98
    carniphagecarniphage Posts: 1,984member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post


    No arguments from me here. Considering Apple sells multiple devices (besides mobile phones) and offers multimedia products (apps, music, videos) and does iAds, all of which they sell for a premium, I'd expect Apple to have a high margin.



    These figures are just Apples handset business.



    C.
  • Reply 98 of 98
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post


    So in HTC's case, you're comparing Apple's total earnings from iPods, iPhone, iPads, and Macs to just HTC's whole lineup of mobile phones? And then saying that because HTC isn't earning as much as Apple, that Android is failing HTC on earnings? Seems like you're trying to parse things against Android.



    Yes, they might not be making as much of a killing as Apple, but they aren't making no profits by using Android.





    When the conversation is Android vs iOS it makes no sense to limit it to just the iPhone. It never has, and that tactic is really only used when trying to make a case look better for Android numbers.



    Flat out, this thread is iOS development vs Android development. Not iPhone vs HTC phone or any type of device vs device breakdown. So trying to minimize that is pretty much a red herring.



    As for using Apples overall numbers. Yes I believe it is a fair enough comparison because it is quite easy to account for and factor out the Mac contribution from the earnings growth. So here goes:



    Apple had a 98% increase last quarter and the phone related operating margins are near 45%. Mac hardware has a GROSS margin of around 30% and only about 20% growth in the same period. So including then actually LOWERS the overall percentage changes! You are griping about something that makes Android look better on a comparison basis!



    And I am saying nothing about HTCs absolute earnings, I am commenting on the earnings growth. Growth says a lot about the potential for the next quarter, and overall tenor of the market, where actual earnings can say a lot about non-market related effects like inventory and supply chain management. When one company has 3 times the growth of another company, AND a fare larger actual sales dollar volume, despite shipping "reportedly" (by analysts) fewer units we have a severe disconnect in indicators.



    And since quarterly earnings reports are by law required to be more accurate than analysts projections, I find it awful hard to ignore that there is a serious potential for the analysts projections to be more than a little off, and the profit margins of the smaller volume and lower growth company to be squeezed by the larger company. As I recall, this is the argument Android fans have been trying to apply to Apple, saying Apple is the squeezee, but the raw numbers are showing Apple to be the squeezor. A fan base cannot argue one set of scenarios and then claim foul when the legally required quarterly reporting is showing them to be exactly opposite what they wish for.
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