No, RIM is doing well but their sales are now coming from prepaid devices in the US (Virgin Mobile 8530 is a good deal imho), outside the US its selling big in cheap market segments like India and China. In essence RIM is pulling a Nokia. Whats also funny about this is RIM is trying to cover its own stink up by saying they will no longer be announcing the Average Selling Price for their product due to "selling many products into many markets makes ASP hard to forecast", but I think everyone knows its because its been heading south since last year when the Droid launched.
VZW was RIMs biggest smartphone mover, and second to that was Sprint and T-Mobile. These were carriers with nothing better than Curves and Tours, and the god awful Storm that i used to own when i was with VZW. Now they turned to Android as their premium offering and consumers have left RIM in the past.
I agree that RiM has to learn to innovate or it will suffer Nokia’s fate with a drop in unit sales, marketshare, revenue AND profit. I’m actually surprised they’re still managing so well in spite of all these changes to their market, but that is a testament to just how well they are managed.
Even within the iPhone 4’s first full quarter they not only managed to turn a profit, but exceed their profit from the previous quarter and previous YoY quarter. In fact, the increased it by a large amount, something Nokia unfortunately isn’t doing.
For instance, in the last quarter (2011-Q2) took a profit of $796.7 Million , yet in the quarter a year prior (]2009-Q2) they only took $475.6 Million. That’s a pretty big YoY jump in profits.
If we go back to the first full quarter (2007-Q2) of the original iPhone was on sale RiM only had a profit of $140.8 Million with a revenue of 658.5 Million, which is less total revenue than their net income just three years later. Going back before the iPhone shows even less revenue for RiM.
All said, I will not invest in RiM again for the foreseeable future, but let’s be fair about RiM and their ability to not only survive in this new smartphone age, but also find away to thrive despite having what appears (to me, anyway) outdated tech or failed attempts moving forward.
I loved my StarTac. I think this time around Motorola isn't going to allow that to happen. They had a huge hit with the Droid 1 and the Droid X. Also that tablet Andy Rubin had looked like a real contender to the iPad. Its nice to have options and a choice plus competition is always good.
I would say that competition is "usually" good ... but only if the companies are trying to differentiate themselves from the pack on things other than just price. Prior to Apple entering the cellphone market, how was all that "competition" working out for the consumer? Most of the product was the same .. cheap and crappy. What about the laptop/netbook marketplace prior to iPad? ... everybody racing to the bottom does "not a market make", imo.
The consumer needs a company like Apple ... one who is not afraid to spend their resources, i.e. .. time, energy and $$$ on trying things that the competition either won't or is incapable of doing.
To me, at least, a successful company is one who, not only makes a profit, but redefines a marketplace by showing what is profitable and possible at the same time .... that Apple has been able to do that time and time again continues to amaze me.
No, RIM is doing well but their sales are now coming from prepaid devices in the US (Virgin Mobile 8530 is a good deal imho), outside the US its selling big in cheap market segments like India and China. In essence RIM is pulling a Nokia. Whats also funny about this is RIM is trying to cover its own stink up by saying they will no longer be announcing the Average Selling Price for their product due to "selling many products into many markets makes ASP hard to forecast", but I think everyone knows its because its been heading south since last year when the Droid launched.
VZW was RIMs biggest smartphone mover, and second to that was Sprint and T-Mobile. These were carriers with nothing better than Curves and Tours, and the god awful Storm that i used to own when i was with VZW. Now they turned to Android as their premium offering and consumers have left RIM in the past.
I generally agree with you 90% here. While I can't claim to chart the usage patterns of everyone worldwide, I do believe the CEO has a point about less data or less mature or robust networks still playing into RIM's hands. I haven't been recently but I've seen several articles that all suggest that Blackberry is all the rage among the teens in Europe. I can't imagine why but perhaps this has kept their overall unit sales up even while they are tanking at Verizon.
It also seems like their phones in addition to being two for one are now often starting at $99. So while they are less capable phones if they are one-fourth of the cost and use one-tenth of the data, you can see why certain people buy them and why certain cell providers might push them.
Rim / Blackberry has lost the WOW factor, there phones are boring, Apps and UI is lacking, what is take so long on the OS 6 release, where is the Storm 3,
I dunno. Those actors in the recent Blackberry TV commercials seem to dig their Blackberries as if the iPhone had never been invented. They're like surfers and DJs and fashionistas. You know, the cool kids in high school
I would say that competition is "usually" good ... but only if the companies are trying to differentiate themselves from the pack on things other than just price. Prior to Apple entering the cellphone market, how was all that "competition" working out for the consumer? Most of the product was the same .. cheap and crappy. What about the laptop/netbook marketplace prior to iPad? ... everybody racing to the bottom does "not a market make", imo.
The consumer needs a company like Apple ... one who is not afraid to spend their resources, i.e. .. time, energy and $$$ on trying things that the competition either won't or is incapable of doing.
To me, at least, a successful company is one who, not only makes a profit, but redefines a marketplace by showing what is profitable and possible at the same time .... that Apple has been able to do that time and time again continues to amaze me.
I wholeheartedly agree but very few if any companies can operate the way Apple does. I'm sure they have talented people with great ideas but most RD depts are working on so many projects its difficult to make any one be a game changer. While Apple hits homeruns these companies are content hitting double or triples. I as a consumer say "thank God for apple" because not only do they make great products but have forced other companies to step up their game in order to survive.
RiM?s earmings state record sales and profits in, I think, all quarters leading back before Android OS and the iPhone arrived on the scene.
So has RiM?s smartphone sales on Verizon actually ?crashed", or is it merely a change in the smartphone market with a huge spike in consumer smartphone sales?
RIM has missed it's own estimates two quarters in a row. That's important. And the estimates were lowered by them first. I believe that they no longer give estimates for subscriptions. So while they are still growing at a good pace, that pace is less than before, and less than RIM itself expected it to be. Companies in decline don't usually drop all at once. It can take years. At one time Motorola was the ruling cell manufacturer. It was difficult thinking that it wouldn't continue. The same is true with Nokia, but they aren't doing well either, and Samsung is about to overtake them worldwide, something that didn't seem possible when I bought my first Palmphone ten years ago, which was the Samsung i300. At that time, Samsung had slightly less than 5% of the world market.
One thing that seems odd, and that I noticed in the charts from the original article which these charts were taken, is that the numbers in the second chart don't seem to match the numbers of the first. The numbers from the second chart show Motorola as having the third largest number of sales not the largest, and both LG and Samsung as having twice as much. Am I missing something?
Even Apple lost market share to Android in the last quarter.
Just barely. But as we all know, almost 45% of Apple's phone sales are still in the US, though that's been changing. And as the iPhone is only directly exposed to 33% of US phone customers, it's not surprising that with Android phones appearing on all networks with increasing numbers of models, from free to expensive, that Apple hasn't been able to expand their share.
There's also no doubt that if they do get on Verizon next year, that the situation will change, at least somewhat. From what I've read, all the estimates for Apple's vs Android's share of the US and worldwide market assumes that the iPhone will just remain on AT&T. That's very poor assumption. It,s also likely that at some point it will also appear on Sprint, at least. And there are still many countries in which the phone isn't being officially sold. Then there are still major countries in which it's being sold from just one carrier, and usually the smallest one.
To think that when this situation changes, the ratio of iPhone to Android phones sold won't change is odd, to say the least.
Although both the iPhone and Droids have been successful, the market analysis on them is flawed and skewered. In one word, BBM. The BB has a strong hold on the teen market b/c of BBM. This is the lock-in factor. This "tribe" although not zealous like iPhone owners, are very loyal. If the phone does not have BBM, they are out of the loop. If you are a teen and out of the loop, you might as well not exist. Peer pressure is enormous within that age segment. So, BB is still a very relevant play b/c they command a very large following within a demographic that matters.
I hear about this from people who have BB's, but I rarely see a younger person with a BB. Actually, most of those I do know of. My daughter's friends who did have one have given then up for iPhones and Android phones. I think that BBM is being overstated in the importance it has.
I wholeheartedly agree but very few if any companies can operate the way Apple does. I'm sure they have talented people with great ideas but most RD depts are working on so many projects its difficult to make any one be a game changer. While Apple hits homeruns these companies are content hitting double or triples. I as a consumer say "thank God for apple" because not only do they make great products but have forced other companies to step up their game in order to survive.
Nothing screams authoritative like a chart that lists Research in Motion as "RIMM" -- hopefully their number crunchers are more careful than their editors.
[edit: RIMM is technically their stock identifier, which might make some sense if they were listed against MOT and HPQ along with HTC and LG]
I hear about this from people who have BB's, but I rarely see a younger person with a BB. Actually, most of those I do know of. My daughter's friends who did have one have given then up for iPhones and Android phones. I think that BBM is being overstated in the importance it has.
The reason teenagers flock to blackberries is the free texting. Not many teenagers can afford to pay the monthly cost of an iPhone unless mommy and daddy pay for it. Lower cost is the only way for competitor's to compete with apple.
RIM has missed it's own estimates two quarters in a row. That's important. And the estimates were lowered by them first. I believe that they no longer give estimates for subscriptions. So while they are still growing at a good pace, that pace is less than before, and less than RIM itself expected it to be. Companies in decline don't usually drop all at once. It can take years. At one time Motorola was the ruling cell manufacturer. It was difficult thinking that it wouldn't continue. The same is true with Nokia, but they aren't doing well either, and Samsung is about to overtake them worldwide, something that didn't seem possible when I bought my first Palmphone ten years ago, which was the Samsung i300. At that time, Samsung had slightly less than 5% of the world market.
One thing that seems odd, and that I noticed in the charts from the original article which these charts were taken, is that the numbers in the second chart don't seem to match the numbers of the first. The numbers from the second chart show Motorola as having the third largest number of sales not the largest, and both LG and Samsung as having twice as much. Am I missing something?
I don?t disagree with any of that, and, as previously stated, I?m surprised RiM has managed to push ahead at all, much less increase profits as they have, but that does not mean they are in the same boat of Nokia who are losing money hand-over-fist.
The reason teenagers flock to blackberries is the free texting. Not many teenagers can afford to pay the monthly cost of an iPhone unless mommy and daddy pay for it. Lower cost is the only way for competitor's to compete with apple.
Could you explain this a bit for me please. I noted I had read about this earlier in the thread but the situation is quite the reverse here in the states. Is the Blackberry sold as something semi-smartphone-ish that gets around texting limits or something of that nature? That's the way I'm visualizing it.
Could you explain this a bit for me please. I noted I had read about this earlier in the thread but the situation is quite the reverse here in the states. Is the Blackberry sold as something semi-smartphone-ish that gets around texting limits or something of that nature? That's the way I'm visualizing it.
The reason teenagers flock to blackberries is the free texting. Not many teenagers can afford to pay the monthly cost of an iPhone unless mommy and daddy pay for it. Lower cost is the only way for competitor's to compete with apple.
But I saw very few BB's in London the four times I was over there in the past 18 months, either with teens or older people. Yet, I did see lots of iPhones with people of all ages.
I don?t disagree with any of that, and, as previously stated, I?m surprised RiM has managed to push ahead at all, much less increase profits as they have, but that does not mean they are in the same boat of Nokia who are losing money hand-over-fist.
You don't have to be losing money to be losing your business. Here's a good analysis of RIM's problems:
Exactly. This isn't a zero sum game, not by a long shot. Profit is more important than marketshare.
Not entirely. Phones these days are often sold on the strength of the apps that come with them. This is like the 80s and 90s for the PC. Declining market share begets declining developer interest, and that is a big problem. So far, iPhone is the best to develop for, and it shows. Android is trying to be like the IBM compatible of the 80s/90s, but ultimately, despite the many similarities of these two markets, they are not identical. The iPhone is likely to succeed even though it is only single-sourced because there is not a cost, utility, or compatibility issue with it. There are, however, cost and compatibility issues with the blackberry.
I manage 100 Blackberry devices and when verizon does get the Iphone i would guess 50% of my user will switch, We are ready, Lotus Notes Traveler. Iphone is enterprise ready. We have a corprate plan with verizon the switch to Iphone just in data cost will save 18,000 a year if all users switch. how about that WOW factor Android swith would do the same thing, Why are we still using Blackberry??
please do confirm once you pocket the 18,000 next year. Nice.
Comments
No, RIM is doing well but their sales are now coming from prepaid devices in the US (Virgin Mobile 8530 is a good deal imho), outside the US its selling big in cheap market segments like India and China. In essence RIM is pulling a Nokia. Whats also funny about this is RIM is trying to cover its own stink up by saying they will no longer be announcing the Average Selling Price for their product due to "selling many products into many markets makes ASP hard to forecast", but I think everyone knows its because its been heading south since last year when the Droid launched.
VZW was RIMs biggest smartphone mover, and second to that was Sprint and T-Mobile. These were carriers with nothing better than Curves and Tours, and the god awful Storm that i used to own when i was with VZW. Now they turned to Android as their premium offering and consumers have left RIM in the past.
I agree that RiM has to learn to innovate or it will suffer Nokia’s fate with a drop in unit sales, marketshare, revenue AND profit. I’m actually surprised they’re still managing so well in spite of all these changes to their market, but that is a testament to just how well they are managed.
Here is RiM’s earnings for their last quarter.Even within the iPhone 4’s first full quarter they not only managed to turn a profit, but exceed their profit from the previous quarter and previous YoY quarter. In fact, the increased it by a large amount, something Nokia unfortunately isn’t doing.
For instance, in the last quarter (2011-Q2) took a profit of $796.7 Million , yet in the quarter a year prior (]2009-Q2) they only took $475.6 Million. That’s a pretty big YoY jump in profits.
If we go back to the first full quarter (2007-Q2) of the original iPhone was on sale RiM only had a profit of $140.8 Million with a revenue of 658.5 Million, which is less total revenue than their net income just three years later. Going back before the iPhone shows even less revenue for RiM.
All said, I will not invest in RiM again for the foreseeable future, but let’s be fair about RiM and their ability to not only survive in this new smartphone age, but also find away to thrive despite having what appears (to me, anyway) outdated tech or failed attempts moving forward.
I loved my StarTac. I think this time around Motorola isn't going to allow that to happen. They had a huge hit with the Droid 1 and the Droid X. Also that tablet Andy Rubin had looked like a real contender to the iPad. Its nice to have options and a choice plus competition is always good.
I would say that competition is "usually" good ... but only if the companies are trying to differentiate themselves from the pack on things other than just price. Prior to Apple entering the cellphone market, how was all that "competition" working out for the consumer? Most of the product was the same .. cheap and crappy. What about the laptop/netbook marketplace prior to iPad? ... everybody racing to the bottom does "not a market make", imo.
The consumer needs a company like Apple ... one who is not afraid to spend their resources, i.e. .. time, energy and $$$ on trying things that the competition either won't or is incapable of doing.
To me, at least, a successful company is one who, not only makes a profit, but redefines a marketplace by showing what is profitable and possible at the same time .... that Apple has been able to do that time and time again continues to amaze me.
No, RIM is doing well but their sales are now coming from prepaid devices in the US (Virgin Mobile 8530 is a good deal imho), outside the US its selling big in cheap market segments like India and China. In essence RIM is pulling a Nokia. Whats also funny about this is RIM is trying to cover its own stink up by saying they will no longer be announcing the Average Selling Price for their product due to "selling many products into many markets makes ASP hard to forecast", but I think everyone knows its because its been heading south since last year when the Droid launched.
VZW was RIMs biggest smartphone mover, and second to that was Sprint and T-Mobile. These were carriers with nothing better than Curves and Tours, and the god awful Storm that i used to own when i was with VZW. Now they turned to Android as their premium offering and consumers have left RIM in the past.
I generally agree with you 90% here. While I can't claim to chart the usage patterns of everyone worldwide, I do believe the CEO has a point about less data or less mature or robust networks still playing into RIM's hands. I haven't been recently but I've seen several articles that all suggest that Blackberry is all the rage among the teens in Europe. I can't imagine why but perhaps this has kept their overall unit sales up even while they are tanking at Verizon.
It also seems like their phones in addition to being two for one are now often starting at $99. So while they are less capable phones if they are one-fourth of the cost and use one-tenth of the data, you can see why certain people buy them and why certain cell providers might push them.
Rim / Blackberry has lost the WOW factor, there phones are boring, Apps and UI is lacking, what is take so long on the OS 6 release, where is the Storm 3,
I dunno. Those actors in the recent Blackberry TV commercials seem to dig their Blackberries as if the iPhone had never been invented. They're like surfers and DJs and fashionistas. You know, the cool kids in high school
I would say that competition is "usually" good ... but only if the companies are trying to differentiate themselves from the pack on things other than just price. Prior to Apple entering the cellphone market, how was all that "competition" working out for the consumer? Most of the product was the same .. cheap and crappy. What about the laptop/netbook marketplace prior to iPad? ... everybody racing to the bottom does "not a market make", imo.
The consumer needs a company like Apple ... one who is not afraid to spend their resources, i.e. .. time, energy and $$$ on trying things that the competition either won't or is incapable of doing.
To me, at least, a successful company is one who, not only makes a profit, but redefines a marketplace by showing what is profitable and possible at the same time .... that Apple has been able to do that time and time again continues to amaze me.
I wholeheartedly agree but very few if any companies can operate the way Apple does. I'm sure they have talented people with great ideas but most RD depts are working on so many projects its difficult to make any one be a game changer. While Apple hits homeruns these companies are content hitting double or triples. I as a consumer say "thank God for apple" because not only do they make great products but have forced other companies to step up their game in order to survive.
Even Apple lost market share to Android in the last quarter.
Oh no. So I should dump my iPhone and get an Android?
RiM?s earmings state record sales and profits in, I think, all quarters leading back before Android OS and the iPhone arrived on the scene.
So has RiM?s smartphone sales on Verizon actually ?crashed", or is it merely a change in the smartphone market with a huge spike in consumer smartphone sales?
RIM has missed it's own estimates two quarters in a row. That's important. And the estimates were lowered by them first. I believe that they no longer give estimates for subscriptions. So while they are still growing at a good pace, that pace is less than before, and less than RIM itself expected it to be. Companies in decline don't usually drop all at once. It can take years. At one time Motorola was the ruling cell manufacturer. It was difficult thinking that it wouldn't continue. The same is true with Nokia, but they aren't doing well either, and Samsung is about to overtake them worldwide, something that didn't seem possible when I bought my first Palmphone ten years ago, which was the Samsung i300. At that time, Samsung had slightly less than 5% of the world market.
One thing that seems odd, and that I noticed in the charts from the original article which these charts were taken, is that the numbers in the second chart don't seem to match the numbers of the first. The numbers from the second chart show Motorola as having the third largest number of sales not the largest, and both LG and Samsung as having twice as much. Am I missing something?
Even Apple lost market share to Android in the last quarter.
Just barely. But as we all know, almost 45% of Apple's phone sales are still in the US, though that's been changing. And as the iPhone is only directly exposed to 33% of US phone customers, it's not surprising that with Android phones appearing on all networks with increasing numbers of models, from free to expensive, that Apple hasn't been able to expand their share.
There's also no doubt that if they do get on Verizon next year, that the situation will change, at least somewhat. From what I've read, all the estimates for Apple's vs Android's share of the US and worldwide market assumes that the iPhone will just remain on AT&T. That's very poor assumption. It,s also likely that at some point it will also appear on Sprint, at least. And there are still many countries in which the phone isn't being officially sold. Then there are still major countries in which it's being sold from just one carrier, and usually the smallest one.
To think that when this situation changes, the ratio of iPhone to Android phones sold won't change is odd, to say the least.
Although both the iPhone and Droids have been successful, the market analysis on them is flawed and skewered. In one word, BBM. The BB has a strong hold on the teen market b/c of BBM. This is the lock-in factor. This "tribe" although not zealous like iPhone owners, are very loyal. If the phone does not have BBM, they are out of the loop. If you are a teen and out of the loop, you might as well not exist. Peer pressure is enormous within that age segment. So, BB is still a very relevant play b/c they command a very large following within a demographic that matters.
I hear about this from people who have BB's, but I rarely see a younger person with a BB. Actually, most of those I do know of. My daughter's friends who did have one have given then up for iPhones and Android phones. I think that BBM is being overstated in the importance it has.
I wholeheartedly agree but very few if any companies can operate the way Apple does. I'm sure they have talented people with great ideas but most RD depts are working on so many projects its difficult to make any one be a game changer. While Apple hits homeruns these companies are content hitting double or triples. I as a consumer say "thank God for apple" because not only do they make great products but have forced other companies to step up their game in order to survive.
I couldn't agree more ! (bold emphasis mine)
[edit: RIMM is technically their stock identifier, which might make some sense if they were listed against MOT and HPQ along with HTC and LG]
I hear about this from people who have BB's, but I rarely see a younger person with a BB. Actually, most of those I do know of. My daughter's friends who did have one have given then up for iPhones and Android phones. I think that BBM is being overstated in the importance it has.
The reason teenagers flock to blackberries is the free texting. Not many teenagers can afford to pay the monthly cost of an iPhone unless mommy and daddy pay for it. Lower cost is the only way for competitor's to compete with apple.
RIM has missed it's own estimates two quarters in a row. That's important. And the estimates were lowered by them first. I believe that they no longer give estimates for subscriptions. So while they are still growing at a good pace, that pace is less than before, and less than RIM itself expected it to be. Companies in decline don't usually drop all at once. It can take years. At one time Motorola was the ruling cell manufacturer. It was difficult thinking that it wouldn't continue. The same is true with Nokia, but they aren't doing well either, and Samsung is about to overtake them worldwide, something that didn't seem possible when I bought my first Palmphone ten years ago, which was the Samsung i300. At that time, Samsung had slightly less than 5% of the world market.
One thing that seems odd, and that I noticed in the charts from the original article which these charts were taken, is that the numbers in the second chart don't seem to match the numbers of the first. The numbers from the second chart show Motorola as having the third largest number of sales not the largest, and both LG and Samsung as having twice as much. Am I missing something?
I don?t disagree with any of that, and, as previously stated, I?m surprised RiM has managed to push ahead at all, much less increase profits as they have, but that does not mean they are in the same boat of Nokia who are losing money hand-over-fist.
The reason teenagers flock to blackberries is the free texting. Not many teenagers can afford to pay the monthly cost of an iPhone unless mommy and daddy pay for it. Lower cost is the only way for competitor's to compete with apple.
Could you explain this a bit for me please. I noted I had read about this earlier in the thread but the situation is quite the reverse here in the states. Is the Blackberry sold as something semi-smartphone-ish that gets around texting limits or something of that nature? That's the way I'm visualizing it.
Could you explain this a bit for me please. I noted I had read about this earlier in the thread but the situation is quite the reverse here in the states. Is the Blackberry sold as something semi-smartphone-ish that gets around texting limits or something of that nature? That's the way I'm visualizing it.
Blackberry to Blackberry is unlimited texts.
The reason teenagers flock to blackberries is the free texting. Not many teenagers can afford to pay the monthly cost of an iPhone unless mommy and daddy pay for it. Lower cost is the only way for competitor's to compete with apple.
But I saw very few BB's in London the four times I was over there in the past 18 months, either with teens or older people. Yet, I did see lots of iPhones with people of all ages.
I don?t disagree with any of that, and, as previously stated, I?m surprised RiM has managed to push ahead at all, much less increase profits as they have, but that does not mean they are in the same boat of Nokia who are losing money hand-over-fist.
You don't have to be losing money to be losing your business. Here's a good analysis of RIM's problems:
http://mobileopportunity.blogspot.co...berry-and.html
You don't have to be losing money to be losing your business. Here's a good analysis of RIM's problems:
http://mobileopportunity.blogspot.co...berry-and.html
I?m well aware of that and believe i clearly addressed that point in my initial post.
Exactly. This isn't a zero sum game, not by a long shot. Profit is more important than marketshare.
Not entirely. Phones these days are often sold on the strength of the apps that come with them. This is like the 80s and 90s for the PC. Declining market share begets declining developer interest, and that is a big problem. So far, iPhone is the best to develop for, and it shows. Android is trying to be like the IBM compatible of the 80s/90s, but ultimately, despite the many similarities of these two markets, they are not identical. The iPhone is likely to succeed even though it is only single-sourced because there is not a cost, utility, or compatibility issue with it. There are, however, cost and compatibility issues with the blackberry.
I manage 100 Blackberry devices and when verizon does get the Iphone i would guess 50% of my user will switch, We are ready, Lotus Notes Traveler. Iphone is enterprise ready. We have a corprate plan with verizon the switch to Iphone just in data cost will save 18,000 a year if all users switch. how about that WOW factor Android swith would do the same thing, Why are we still using Blackberry??
please do confirm once you pocket the 18,000 next year. Nice.