I guess we should be in awe of your lack of Google skills. The WSJ alone has an entire series on the matter, as pointed out above. It's obvious you didn't really look, this stuff is commonly-known unless you live under a rock. Sorry Anonymouse, I was out most of the day, I'm surprised more people didn't join the conversation to point out the gross ignorance of those arguing against you.
alandail: RapLeaf was all over the news a while back, here's just a couple links (literally 15 seconds of searching):
Contextual advertising is perfectly reasonable, and it's existed for probably 50+ years. Advertise toys on Saturday morning cartoons, and dishwashing liquid during the afternoon soaps. That is not privacy-invasive at all. But what's happening now is completely different because profiles of individual people are being created that the KGB would have fricking killed for back in the day. Literally. And lots of (very, very ignorant) people are willingly giving that data away for nothing. All for a little online coolness.
Ready to come around yet? There's so much data and research around this that it's not funny.
I don't know your history here well enough to know if you're just spouting off, but now would be the time to read the WSJ articles and about RapLeaf et al. Would love to see you come back with a different (educated) opinion.
Where were google and admob in those reports. That's what we were discussing.
it looks like you're just trolling here, so i'll make a quick pass here and be done. either that or you're a shill for google, rapleaf, bluekai or one of those perilously-close-to-criminal companies.
stuff here quoted for truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
So, you're one of the tracking deniers? It's more or less common knowledge that online advertising companies build profiles including all of the information you mention on their "marks".
anonymouse was talking about online advertising companies, however, you responded with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail
it's a common fear, not common knowledge, otherwise you'd be able to point to one iOS app that stores my name, address, and location history without my knowledge for advertisers. ...
attempting to change the topic to iOS apps. maybe since you knew you were fundamentally wrong trying to deny the fact that online marketing companies are building these profiles. with as much detail as they can possibly get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
As we all know, the issue is not about individual apps doing this, it's about ad networks doing it. So, basically, for example, any app that uses AdMob to deliver ads is guilty of this offense.
anony reiterates that it's not about iOS apps, but ad networks. and used AdMob as (perhaps a less-than-ideal) example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail
I repeatedly as for some sort of evidence, you provide none and call me disingeous. I've also searched the web for anything to support your paranoid claims and again come up empty.
so you pretend you don't know how to use google. then ignore all the examples posted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64
Ready to come around yet? There's so much data and research around this that it's not funny. I don't know your history here well enough to know if you're just spouting off, but now would be the time to read the WSJ articles and about RapLeaf et al. Would love to see you come back with a different (educated) opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail
Where were google and admob in those reports. That's what we were discussing.
so to wrap up, no we weren't. not specifically. you might be able to twist and fake your way through this type of argument in person, but in a forum like this, it's all above in black and white. you don't come out at the end sounding very clever.
OH WAIT! i see it now. you're just posting so you can throw your little advertisement signature out in front of us. boo. let that be a lesson kids. don't get involved in a stupid troll conversation when there are obvious signs. i didn't look close enough.
for anyone else that happens to still be reading this thread. go read the Wall Street Journal articles linked above and the couple links I posted. it's enlightening.
So, really, you have no point at all. And, it was an editorial 'we'.
I think it's more like a delusional we.
Anyway, it's useless to discuss anything with you. I sorta picture you as a someone screaming and smashing his fists as he posts. There isn't enough time in the day to deal with that kinda thing, this topic just isn't that important really, beyond some interest.
so to wrap up, no we weren't. not specifically. you might be able to twist and fake your way through this type of argument in person, but in a forum like this, it's all above in black and white. you don't come out at the end sounding very clever.
THanks for quoting some of what I said and completey ignoring the rest to say I was wrong on what we were talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
So, basically, for example, any app that uses AdMob to deliver ads is guilty of this offense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail
You're claiming that admob has a database that includes my name, address, app history, and location history? So you're basically saying they are lying with their own stated privacy policy?
Quote:
anonymouse] If Google's (which AdMob is part of) privacy policy says they aren't tracking this information, then, yes, they are lying. Between all the ad and tracking networks that are now part of Google, they definitely have all this information, and they are definitely sharing it across systems.
The article was specific to data collected through mobile apps. The discussion was specific to Google collecting this data through AdMob. ANd part of the data that was claimed to be collected is your location history.
As you noticed in my sig, yes I own a company. A company where I spend a lot of money on advertising, most of which is though google. And this sort of information that is being claimed simply isn't available to advertisers. I can buy ads that target specific areas of the country or specific countries of the world where the people are when they are browsing. I can buy ads that target specific web sites (based on their demographics) or even specific types of mobile devices. So I run ads on the iPad, where our site works well, but not on mobile phones, because the screens are too small to give a good experience although it still works.
I've never had a way to target ads to the things claimed. There is nowhere where I can buy ads based on where customers have been previously or what apps they ran in the past.
I can also buy advertising based on the content of the page being displayed. If the page displayed one of my targeted words, the ad appears. If not, it doesn't. WIthout this, and other kinds of targeting, for my business with low cost products, online advertising would be prohibitively expensive as conversion rates go down, thus the cost per conversion goes up, the less relevant the page is.
I am certain that the content of a gmail page is considered when selecting the ads to display beside it. I turned that source of advertising off off because they don't convert well. There really would be no purpose served behind storing the contents of that email in some sort of profile for that person.
I've never had a way to target ads to the things claimed. There is nowhere where I can buy ads based on where customers have been previously or what apps they ran in the past.
Fine, we can see the context from which you're views are derived.
However, rather than base your claims on your own (very limited) access to this kind of data, look around and see what's happening in the bigger world. I can only assume you didn't actually read the WSJ and subsequent articles. This data IS being harvested, aggregated, disaggregated, and much of it sold. No matter whether you believe it or not. There are many lawsuits in-progress. Damages are difficult to prove, but contract violations and privacy policy violations are going to be daylighted unless these companies bury it with out-of-court "keep it quiet" settlements.
One reference (a single google search "rapleaf zynga personal", 5 seconds)
Your company is probably not noteworthy enough to have the same access as the big players, and some companies like Google are probably not CURRENTLY providing access to a lot of this data (i.e. that we know of publicly, but they unequivocally own massive personal data). Even RapLeaf, iirc, doesn't make all data readily available to all comers. But if you're Zynga, or someone else with muscle, don't kid yourself. What these companies are doing is abominable. I too own a business, and I will not deal with these scofflaws under any circumstances. Even Google is treading closer and closer to the edge of their "do no evil" slogan.
Comments
I guess we should be in awe of your lack of Google skills. The WSJ alone has an entire series on the matter, as pointed out above. It's obvious you didn't really look, this stuff is commonly-known unless you live under a rock. Sorry Anonymouse, I was out most of the day, I'm surprised more people didn't join the conversation to point out the gross ignorance of those arguing against you.
alandail: RapLeaf was all over the news a while back, here's just a couple links (literally 15 seconds of searching):
Not only are these profiling firms monitoring you, but they're monitoring your friends as well, and using that information in your profile. Hope all your friends have stellar credit ratings.
And it's not just RapLeaf, CNN says: "Acxiom, ChoicePoint, Quantcast, and BluKai also collect and sell your data, as do many others"
Contextual advertising is perfectly reasonable, and it's existed for probably 50+ years. Advertise toys on Saturday morning cartoons, and dishwashing liquid during the afternoon soaps. That is not privacy-invasive at all. But what's happening now is completely different because profiles of individual people are being created that the KGB would have fricking killed for back in the day. Literally. And lots of (very, very ignorant) people are willingly giving that data away for nothing. All for a little online coolness.
Ready to come around yet? There's so much data and research around this that it's not funny.
I don't know your history here well enough to know if you're just spouting off, but now would be the time to read the WSJ articles and about RapLeaf et al. Would love to see you come back with a different (educated) opinion.
Where were google and admob in those reports. That's what we were discussing.
stuff here quoted for truth.
So, you're one of the tracking deniers? It's more or less common knowledge that online advertising companies build profiles including all of the information you mention on their "marks".
anonymouse was talking about online advertising companies, however, you responded with:
it's a common fear, not common knowledge, otherwise you'd be able to point to one iOS app that stores my name, address, and location history without my knowledge for advertisers. ...
attempting to change the topic to iOS apps. maybe since you knew you were fundamentally wrong trying to deny the fact that online marketing companies are building these profiles. with as much detail as they can possibly get.
As we all know, the issue is not about individual apps doing this, it's about ad networks doing it. So, basically, for example, any app that uses AdMob to deliver ads is guilty of this offense.
anony reiterates that it's not about iOS apps, but ad networks. and used AdMob as (perhaps a less-than-ideal) example.
I repeatedly as for some sort of evidence, you provide none and call me disingeous. I've also searched the web for anything to support your paranoid claims and again come up empty.
so you pretend you don't know how to use google. then ignore all the examples posted.
Ready to come around yet? There's so much data and research around this that it's not funny. I don't know your history here well enough to know if you're just spouting off, but now would be the time to read the WSJ articles and about RapLeaf et al. Would love to see you come back with a different (educated) opinion.
Where were google and admob in those reports. That's what we were discussing.
so to wrap up, no we weren't. not specifically. you might be able to twist and fake your way through this type of argument in person, but in a forum like this, it's all above in black and white. you don't come out at the end sounding very clever.
OH WAIT! i see it now. you're just posting so you can throw your little advertisement signature out in front of us. boo. let that be a lesson kids. don't get involved in a stupid troll conversation when there are obvious signs. i didn't look close enough.
for anyone else that happens to still be reading this thread. go read the Wall Street Journal articles linked above and the couple links I posted. it's enlightening.
So, really, you have no point at all. And, it was an editorial 'we'.
I think it's more like a delusional we.
Anyway, it's useless to discuss anything with you. I sorta picture you as a someone screaming and smashing his fists as he posts. There isn't enough time in the day to deal with that kinda thing, this topic just isn't that important really, beyond some interest.
so to wrap up, no we weren't. not specifically. you might be able to twist and fake your way through this type of argument in person, but in a forum like this, it's all above in black and white. you don't come out at the end sounding very clever.
THanks for quoting some of what I said and completey ignoring the rest to say I was wrong on what we were talking about.
So, basically, for example, any app that uses AdMob to deliver ads is guilty of this offense.
You're claiming that admob has a database that includes my name, address, app history, and location history? So you're basically saying they are lying with their own stated privacy policy?
anonymouse] If Google's (which AdMob is part of) privacy policy says they aren't tracking this information, then, yes, they are lying. Between all the ad and tracking networks that are now part of Google, they definitely have all this information, and they are definitely sharing it across systems.
The article was specific to data collected through mobile apps. The discussion was specific to Google collecting this data through AdMob. ANd part of the data that was claimed to be collected is your location history.
As you noticed in my sig, yes I own a company. A company where I spend a lot of money on advertising, most of which is though google. And this sort of information that is being claimed simply isn't available to advertisers. I can buy ads that target specific areas of the country or specific countries of the world where the people are when they are browsing. I can buy ads that target specific web sites (based on their demographics) or even specific types of mobile devices. So I run ads on the iPad, where our site works well, but not on mobile phones, because the screens are too small to give a good experience although it still works.
I've never had a way to target ads to the things claimed. There is nowhere where I can buy ads based on where customers have been previously or what apps they ran in the past.
I can also buy advertising based on the content of the page being displayed. If the page displayed one of my targeted words, the ad appears. If not, it doesn't. WIthout this, and other kinds of targeting, for my business with low cost products, online advertising would be prohibitively expensive as conversion rates go down, thus the cost per conversion goes up, the less relevant the page is.
I am certain that the content of a gmail page is considered when selecting the ads to display beside it. I turned that source of advertising off off because they don't convert well. There really would be no purpose served behind storing the contents of that email in some sort of profile for that person.
I've never had a way to target ads to the things claimed. There is nowhere where I can buy ads based on where customers have been previously or what apps they ran in the past.
Fine, we can see the context from which you're views are derived.
However, rather than base your claims on your own (very limited) access to this kind of data, look around and see what's happening in the bigger world. I can only assume you didn't actually read the WSJ and subsequent articles. This data IS being harvested, aggregated, disaggregated, and much of it sold. No matter whether you believe it or not. There are many lawsuits in-progress. Damages are difficult to prove, but contract violations and privacy policy violations are going to be daylighted unless these companies bury it with out-of-court "keep it quiet" settlements.
One reference (a single google search "rapleaf zynga personal", 5 seconds)
http://www.mediapost.com/publication...art_aid=140253
Your company is probably not noteworthy enough to have the same access as the big players, and some companies like Google are probably not CURRENTLY providing access to a lot of this data (i.e. that we know of publicly, but they unequivocally own massive personal data). Even RapLeaf, iirc, doesn't make all data readily available to all comers. But if you're Zynga, or someone else with muscle, don't kid yourself. What these companies are doing is abominable. I too own a business, and I will not deal with these scofflaws under any circumstances. Even Google is treading closer and closer to the edge of their "do no evil" slogan.