To be Jewish describes nationality and ethnicity, as well as religion.
Furthermore, I'd say 70-80% of Jews in Israel don't consider themselves religious. Nor were any of the founding fathers of Israel religious. In fact, Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, modeled his political party after Communist ideals. You know what Communism had to say about religion, right?
Now how does that compare with other states you consider secular democracies? Let?s take France for example and the story of Joan of Ark, or the British and their monarchs who where also heads of the Church.
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't try to use outdated examples. British royalty have no power.
As far as understanding, I do perfectly. You fail to keep two separate concepts in your head at the same time. Judaism is a culture and ethnicity. Judaism is a religion. Israel is a Jewish state by both definitions. They are more tolerant than most religious states, however, that does not mean that there is a separation between their church and state.
I was unfortunately force-fed judaism as a child and I do understand.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</p>
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>
Of course they are tolerant. I never denied that. No one ever said that religious states had to be intolerant. Intolerance is simply a very common attitude in such countries.
Now, are you going to tell me with a straight face that Israel is not a Jewish State?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Let me explain this to you in simple terms .
I am not religious .. my wife is not religious .... my family are not remotely religious ( my parents are probably atheists ) non of my friends are religious .... We are all Jews we are all Israelis.....we serve in the IDF not to fight for some silly God .. ..we try to defend our families and country's fate. Jews are a nation .. the descendants of people who were exiled by Rome from the Land of Judea 2000 years ago..... there are many strands of the jewish religion and (as I have stated above) many Israelis are not Jews by their religion but are israeli by nationality ... is that making it clearer to you at all ?
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>
Don't try to use outdated examples. British royalty have no power.
As far as understanding, I do perfectly. You fail to keep two separate concepts in your head at the same time. Judaism is a culture and ethnicity. Judaism is a religion. Israel is a Jewish state by both definitions. They are more tolerant than most religious states, however, that does not mean that there is a separation between their church and state.
I was unfortunately force-fed judaism as a child and I do understand.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't follow you?
So if there is a consensus in the country about keeping the Sabbath as a day of rest, that disqualifies Israel a secular democracy. Or maybe it?s the fact that we celebrate religious national holidays? As opposed to your perfect predominately Christian secular states that don?t celebrate Charismas or Easter, or have Sundays as a day of rest. C?mon.
I am not religious .. my wife is not religious .... my family are not remotely religious ( my parents are probably atheists ) non of my friends are religious .... We are all Jews we are all Israelis.....we serve in the IDF not to fight for some silly God .. ..we try to defend our families and country's fate. Jews are a nation .. the descendants of people who were exiled by Rome from the Land of Judea 2000 years ago..... there are many strands of the jewish religion and (as I have stated above) many Israelis are not Jews by their religion but are israeli by nationality ... is that making it clearer to you at all ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm sure that many people share your point of view but there are also those in power that ARE religious and perform actions based upon the religion. Anyway, I don't see why a certain ethnic group has a right to their own state. Should there be an Aryan Nation too?
So if there is a consensus in the country about keeping the Sabbath as a day of rest, that disqualifies Israel a secular democracy. Or maybe it?s the fact that we celebrate religious national holidays? As opposed to your perfect predominately Christian secular states that don?t celebrate Charismas or Easter. C?mon.
I'm opposed to christmas and easter being national holidays. Christian secular is a contradiction of terms by the way. Unlike most arrogant americans, I believe that we are far from perfect as well. Religion should not factor into any decision in any government. You cannot possibly say with a straight face that the jewish religion does not enter into the decision making process in Israel.
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>
Whether you like it or not, in addition to being a culture, Judaism is a religion. Frankly preserving ethnic composition as a motivation for immigration laws is not an acceptable reason. The reason why the US doesn't let just anyone in is for security and job availability. Anyone who is trying to "preserve ethnic composition" is just a bigot.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, in that case most of the world are bigots ... try immigrating to US, Japan or to any European state ( as a third world person ) see how far you will get.........
Besides Jews were forced into this self obsessed position by the hostility of non-Jews towards them. for example there has been a massive influx of immigrants from Russia to Israel during the 90s as a direct result of a scary increase of Anti-Semitism in Russia, people were literally fleeing persecution .. again . .....in the 90s..... not the 30s........
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>
I'm sure that many people share your point of view but there are also those in power that ARE religious and perform actions based upon the religion. Anyway, I don't see why a certain ethnic group has a right to their own state. Should there be an Aryan Nation too?</strong><hr></blockquote>
edit:
And I don't mean this in a bad way at all !!!
There are Aryan nations .. in fact few of them .... how easy it is for non Europeans to immigtrate to say Norway ?.. LOL .. that should be interesting, they are not even a member of the EU, they are soo obssesed with preserving their Viking Aryan heritage ......
There are Aryan nations .. in fact few of them .... how easy it is for non Europeans to immigtrate to say Norway ?.. LOL .. that should be interesting, they are not even a member of the EU, they are soo obssesed with preserving their Viking Aryan heritage ......</strong><hr></blockquote>
And that attitude is just as retarded as the attitude of having a jewish state. The end.
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>
I'm opposed to christmas and easter being national holidays. Christian secular is a contradiction of terms by the way. Unlike most arrogant americans, I believe that we are far from perfect as well. Religion should not factor into any decision in any government. You cannot possibly say with a straight face that the jewish religion does not enter into the decision making process in Israel.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Off course religion enters into politics in Israel it does so in almost every country on earth .. that doesn't make Israel into a religious state any more then it makes Germany ( second largest party are the Christian democrats ) or the US ( GWB is supported by the evangelical right) or India ( ruled by a Hindu nationalist party) into religious states
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>
I'm opposed to christmas and easter being national holidays. Christian secular is a contradiction of terms by the way. Unlike most arrogant americans, I believe that we are far from perfect as well. Religion should not factor into any decision in any government. You cannot possibly say with a straight face that the jewish religion does not enter into the decision making process in Israel.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You know what I meant when I said ?predominately Christian secular states?. Predominately populated with people of Christian background. By your own admission your own country fails in this regard, as well as most western states we think of as secular democratic states.
You know what I meant when I said ?predominately Christian secular states?. Predominately populated with people of Christian background. By your own admission your own country fails in this regard, as well as most western states we think of as secular democratic states.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Duh. I'm not a hypcorite like most you people here. My country needs to change. Your country needs to change. Israel needs to change. Of course the amount of change varies on a country by country basis.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</p>
If you can?t have nation state based on ethnicity, and such, why not just have one global government? It that what you're advocating? Flood Africans into China and Japan, Europeans into Africa, South Americans into Europe. etc.
That will solve all our the problems don?t you think?
So what do you suggest instead of having Israel as a home for the Jewish NATION ?
The Jews should simply hang around in Europe and the US and wait for the next Pogrom/Holocaust/discrimination to take place ?
I dont get it, what's your solution then ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Did I ever say they should all move? NO FOR THE LAST TIME GOD DAMMIT YOU PEOPLE DON'T LISTEN! They can live wherever they want. However, NO ETHNIC GROUP SHOULD HAVE A STATE JUST FOR THEM.
<strong>If you can?t have nation state based on ethnicity, and such, why not just have one global government? It that what you're advocating? Flood Africans into China and Japan, Europeans into Africa, South Americans into Europe. etc.
That will solve all our the problems don?t you think?
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Let's get religion out of government first and then head in that direction later. Baby steps. Baby steps.
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>
Let's get religion out of government first and then head in that direction later. Baby steps. Baby steps.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well as a non-religious Israeli, I see very little problems as far as this issue goes; the one exception being that yeshiva students qualify for deferment of their army duties. But there is also the issue of the Arab minorities in Israel that do not serve either. If they can?t serve in the Army for religious and/or national reasons, have them serve in other capacities in the civic arena.
Also, most Jewish/Israelis view their religion as a kind of insurance policy in case things go bad again. Most know that if it wasn?t for our forefathers keeping true to their faith while living in exile, there would be no Israel for us today. So although the vast majority of Jews in Israel are not religious, they are not prepared to discard Judaism all together. It is still a significant part of our national identity, and will forever remain so. (As it should).
Well as a non-religious Israeli, I see very little problems as far as this issue goes; the one exception being that yeshiva students qualify for deferment of their army duties. But there is also the issue of the Arab minorities in Israel that do not serve either. If they can?t serve in the Army for religious and/or national reasons, have them serve in other capacities in the civic arena.
Also, most Jewish/Israelis view their religion as a kind of insurance policy in case things go bad again. Most know that if it wasn?t for our forefathers keeping true to their faith while living in exile, there would be no Israel for us today. So although the vast majority of Jews in Israel are not religious, they are not prepared to discard Judaism all together. It is still a significant part of our national identity, and will forever remain so. (As it should).
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
As it shouldn't be. Arbitrary separations based on arbitrary words written arbitrarily on arbitrary pieces of paper are what's wrong with the world today. We are humans. That is all.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</p>
man, we just AREN'T HAPPY unless we have a weekly religious (which seems to have a very monotonous "Jews vs Everyone" overtone lately) slug fest are we????
LOOK at the title of the thread. Answer the question.
Israel is where it is for RELIGIOUS reasons and therfore cannot be anywhere else. Period. Have a nice day.
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>
As it shouldn't be. Arbitrary separations based on arbitrary words written arbitrarily on arbitrary pieces of paper are what's wrong with the world today. We are humans. That is all.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, all I can say is that if you feel so strongly about it, maybe you should start a political movement in your country to secede and create your own perfect little world. Maybe with enough people you will succeed and then you'll be able to absorb all those millions and millions oppressed peoples and create a greatest nation on earth ? Frivolity land.
Comments
<strong>
I don't think you do understand....
Again,
To be Jewish describes nationality and ethnicity, as well as religion.
Furthermore, I'd say 70-80% of Jews in Israel don't consider themselves religious. Nor were any of the founding fathers of Israel religious. In fact, Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, modeled his political party after Communist ideals. You know what Communism had to say about religion, right?
Now how does that compare with other states you consider secular democracies? Let?s take France for example and the story of Joan of Ark, or the British and their monarchs who where also heads of the Church.
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't try to use outdated examples. British royalty have no power.
As far as understanding, I do perfectly. You fail to keep two separate concepts in your head at the same time. Judaism is a culture and ethnicity. Judaism is a religion. Israel is a Jewish state by both definitions. They are more tolerant than most religious states, however, that does not mean that there is a separation between their church and state.
I was unfortunately force-fed judaism as a child and I do understand.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</p>
<strong>
Of course they are tolerant. I never denied that. No one ever said that religious states had to be intolerant. Intolerance is simply a very common attitude in such countries.
Now, are you going to tell me with a straight face that Israel is not a Jewish State?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Let me explain this to you in simple terms .
I am not religious .. my wife is not religious .... my family are not remotely religious ( my parents are probably atheists ) non of my friends are religious .... We are all Jews we are all Israelis.....we serve in the IDF not to fight for some silly God .. ..we try to defend our families and country's fate. Jews are a nation .. the descendants of people who were exiled by Rome from the Land of Judea 2000 years ago..... there are many strands of the jewish religion and (as I have stated above) many Israelis are not Jews by their religion but are israeli by nationality ... is that making it clearer to you at all ?
<strong>
Don't try to use outdated examples. British royalty have no power.
As far as understanding, I do perfectly. You fail to keep two separate concepts in your head at the same time. Judaism is a culture and ethnicity. Judaism is a religion. Israel is a Jewish state by both definitions. They are more tolerant than most religious states, however, that does not mean that there is a separation between their church and state.
I was unfortunately force-fed judaism as a child and I do understand.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't follow you?
So if there is a consensus in the country about keeping the Sabbath as a day of rest, that disqualifies Israel a secular democracy. Or maybe it?s the fact that we celebrate religious national holidays? As opposed to your perfect predominately Christian secular states that don?t celebrate Charismas or Easter, or have Sundays as a day of rest. C?mon.
mika.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<strong>
Let me explain this to you in simple terms .
I am not religious .. my wife is not religious .... my family are not remotely religious ( my parents are probably atheists ) non of my friends are religious .... We are all Jews we are all Israelis.....we serve in the IDF not to fight for some silly God .. ..we try to defend our families and country's fate. Jews are a nation .. the descendants of people who were exiled by Rome from the Land of Judea 2000 years ago..... there are many strands of the jewish religion and (as I have stated above) many Israelis are not Jews by their religion but are israeli by nationality ... is that making it clearer to you at all ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm sure that many people share your point of view but there are also those in power that ARE religious and perform actions based upon the religion. Anyway, I don't see why a certain ethnic group has a right to their own state. Should there be an Aryan Nation too?
<strong>
I don't follow you?
So if there is a consensus in the country about keeping the Sabbath as a day of rest, that disqualifies Israel a secular democracy. Or maybe it?s the fact that we celebrate religious national holidays? As opposed to your perfect predominately Christian secular states that don?t celebrate Charismas or Easter. C?mon.
mika.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm opposed to christmas and easter being national holidays. Christian secular is a contradiction of terms by the way. Unlike most arrogant americans, I believe that we are far from perfect as well. Religion should not factor into any decision in any government. You cannot possibly say with a straight face that the jewish religion does not enter into the decision making process in Israel.
<strong>
Whether you like it or not, in addition to being a culture, Judaism is a religion. Frankly preserving ethnic composition as a motivation for immigration laws is not an acceptable reason. The reason why the US doesn't let just anyone in is for security and job availability. Anyone who is trying to "preserve ethnic composition" is just a bigot.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, in that case most of the world are bigots ... try immigrating to US, Japan or to any European state ( as a third world person ) see how far you will get.........
Besides Jews were forced into this self obsessed position by the hostility of non-Jews towards them. for example there has been a massive influx of immigrants from Russia to Israel during the 90s as a direct result of a scary increase of Anti-Semitism in Russia, people were literally fleeing persecution .. again . .....in the 90s..... not the 30s........
<strong>
I'm sure that many people share your point of view but there are also those in power that ARE religious and perform actions based upon the religion. Anyway, I don't see why a certain ethnic group has a right to their own state. Should there be an Aryan Nation too?</strong><hr></blockquote>
edit:
And I don't mean this in a bad way at all !!!
There are Aryan nations .. in fact few of them .... how easy it is for non Europeans to immigtrate to say Norway ?.. LOL .. that should be interesting, they are not even a member of the EU, they are soo obssesed with preserving their Viking Aryan heritage ......
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
<strong>
There are Aryan nations .. in fact few of them .... how easy it is for non Europeans to immigtrate to say Norway ?.. LOL .. that should be interesting, they are not even a member of the EU, they are soo obssesed with preserving their Viking Aryan heritage ......</strong><hr></blockquote>
And that attitude is just as retarded as the attitude of having a jewish state. The end.
<strong>
I'm opposed to christmas and easter being national holidays. Christian secular is a contradiction of terms by the way. Unlike most arrogant americans, I believe that we are far from perfect as well. Religion should not factor into any decision in any government. You cannot possibly say with a straight face that the jewish religion does not enter into the decision making process in Israel.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Off course religion enters into politics in Israel it does so in almost every country on earth .. that doesn't make Israel into a religious state any more then it makes Germany ( second largest party are the Christian democrats ) or the US ( GWB is supported by the evangelical right) or India ( ruled by a Hindu nationalist party) into religious states
It makes it into an imperfect state
<strong>
I'm opposed to christmas and easter being national holidays. Christian secular is a contradiction of terms by the way. Unlike most arrogant americans, I believe that we are far from perfect as well. Religion should not factor into any decision in any government. You cannot possibly say with a straight face that the jewish religion does not enter into the decision making process in Israel.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You know what I meant when I said ?predominately Christian secular states?. Predominately populated with people of Christian background. By your own admission your own country fails in this regard, as well as most western states we think of as secular democratic states.
<strong>
You know what I meant when I said ?predominately Christian secular states?. Predominately populated with people of Christian background. By your own admission your own country fails in this regard, as well as most western states we think of as secular democratic states.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Duh. I'm not a hypcorite like most you people here. My country needs to change. Your country needs to change. Israel needs to change. Of course the amount of change varies on a country by country basis.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</p>
<strong>
And that attitude is just as retarded as the attitude of having a jewish state. The end.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So what do you suggest instead of having Israel as a home for the Jewish NATION ?
The Jews should simply hang around in Europe and the US and wait for the next Pogrom/Holocaust/discrimination to take place ?
I dont get it, what's your solution then ?
That will solve all our the problems don?t you think?
mika.
<strong>
So what do you suggest instead of having Israel as a home for the Jewish NATION ?
The Jews should simply hang around in Europe and the US and wait for the next Pogrom/Holocaust/discrimination to take place ?
I dont get it, what's your solution then ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Did I ever say they should all move? NO FOR THE LAST TIME GOD DAMMIT YOU PEOPLE DON'T LISTEN! They can live wherever they want. However, NO ETHNIC GROUP SHOULD HAVE A STATE JUST FOR THEM.
<strong>If you can?t have nation state based on ethnicity, and such, why not just have one global government? It that what you're advocating? Flood Africans into China and Japan, Europeans into Africa, South Americans into Europe. etc.
That will solve all our the problems don?t you think?
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Let's get religion out of government first and then head in that direction later. Baby steps. Baby steps.
<strong>
Let's get religion out of government first and then head in that direction later. Baby steps. Baby steps.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well as a non-religious Israeli, I see very little problems as far as this issue goes; the one exception being that yeshiva students qualify for deferment of their army duties. But there is also the issue of the Arab minorities in Israel that do not serve either. If they can?t serve in the Army for religious and/or national reasons, have them serve in other capacities in the civic arena.
Also, most Jewish/Israelis view their religion as a kind of insurance policy in case things go bad again. Most know that if it wasn?t for our forefathers keeping true to their faith while living in exile, there would be no Israel for us today. So although the vast majority of Jews in Israel are not religious, they are not prepared to discard Judaism all together. It is still a significant part of our national identity, and will forever remain so. (As it should).
mika.
<strong>
Well as a non-religious Israeli, I see very little problems as far as this issue goes; the one exception being that yeshiva students qualify for deferment of their army duties. But there is also the issue of the Arab minorities in Israel that do not serve either. If they can?t serve in the Army for religious and/or national reasons, have them serve in other capacities in the civic arena.
Also, most Jewish/Israelis view their religion as a kind of insurance policy in case things go bad again. Most know that if it wasn?t for our forefathers keeping true to their faith while living in exile, there would be no Israel for us today. So although the vast majority of Jews in Israel are not religious, they are not prepared to discard Judaism all together. It is still a significant part of our national identity, and will forever remain so. (As it should).
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
As it shouldn't be. Arbitrary separations based on arbitrary words written arbitrarily on arbitrary pieces of paper are what's wrong with the world today. We are humans. That is all.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</p>
LOOK at the title of the thread. Answer the question.
Israel is where it is for RELIGIOUS reasons and therfore cannot be anywhere else. Period. Have a nice day.
<strong>
As it shouldn't be. Arbitrary separations based on arbitrary words written arbitrarily on arbitrary pieces of paper are what's wrong with the world today. We are humans. That is all.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, all I can say is that if you feel so strongly about it, maybe you should start a political movement in your country to secede and create your own perfect little world. Maybe with enough people you will succeed and then you'll be able to absorb all those millions and millions oppressed peoples and create a greatest nation on earth ? Frivolity land.
Now stop with the hot air and get to work.
mika.
<strong>
That also goes for every islamic country as well as israel. All of them need to be secular.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
God Bless America!