At Best Buy, though, they might well steer you to the HP, unless they were making more money off one of the others
Not just BestBuy - manufactures like HP often offer SPIFs - I highly doubt Apple offers such things.
Technically it's not a commission from BestBuy - it's from the manufacturer. I dunno if they allow SPIFs - I haven't found anything conclusively one way or the other, but in this day and age if you aren't a little wary of sales people then shame on you.
Not just BestBuy - manufactures like HP often offer SPIFs - I highly doubt Apple offers such things.
Technically it's not a commission from BestBuy - it's from the manufacturer. I dunno if they allow SPIFs - I haven't found anything conclusively one way or the other, but in this day and age if you aren't a little wary of sales people then shame on you.
When we were an Apple reseller in 1978-1989' Apple offered SPIFs -- as did most of the hardware and software mfgrs.
Looks good to me. But Web OS on phones was good, Palm failed with it because they were too late, and couldn't muster developer support in the face of the App store, and latterly Android. Whether HP can sell the TouchPad/WebOS to developers as a platform to write for, will determine it's fate.
RE WebOS on a PC.
Back in the dark pre-iPad days, attempts at tablets failed because they were by and large attempts to put a desktop OS, on a tablet.
iOS succeeded because it was a ground-up purpose designed touch-interface OS. Not a desktop OS, shoehorned onto a slate device. Witnessed MicroSoft's repeated failure in phones, because until WP7, they were obsessed with attempting to recreate the Windows experience on a phone/pda.
Now, it seems HP are making the exact same mistake in reverse. They are assuming that taking a touch-based OS (a fairly decent one) and adapting it for Keyboard/Mouse/Trackpad to work on desktop computer is a good thing. It isn't. For a desktop or laptop, you need an OS designed for one.
Certainly, HP has the buying power to buy things in bulk, but it sounds like Apple got first jump on securing best price by ordering early for screens and flash.
actually, tho larger than Apple by total revenues, in December HP reported it only had $11 billion in cash/equivalents, versus $22 billion in debt. whereas Apple last month reported $60 billion in cash/equivalents and $-0- debt!!
so, no, as a matter of fact HP CANNOT match Apple's ability to quickly lay out billions in advance to nail down its supply chain at best price. no one in the world can.
My impression, based solely on the engadget live blog images, was that these were PCs running webOS, not Windows machines with a webOS layer:
Looks like a boot screen, but really no details.
I believe it will be dual boot option.
HP already has it on some machines, likewise Asus. Asus calls it Express Gate and has web browser, photos, games (Flash based), instant messenger and Skype. It is claimed to boot in 5 seconds and, I believe, is based on some slim version of Linux.
Since HP owns WebOS, it sounds logical that they will utilize it instead of Linux wherever they can - desktops, laptops, printers and multifunctionals....
actually, tho larger than Apple by total revenues, in December HP reported it only had $11 billion in cash/equivalents, versus $22 billion in debt. whereas Apple last month reported $60 billion in cash/equivalents and $-0- debt!!
so, no, as a matter of fact HP CANNOT match Apple's ability to quickly lay out billions in advance to nail down its supply chain at best price. no one in the world can.
Good point! I'm sure there a lot more large companies that are "Debt-Free" but Apple and Toyota are the only ones that come to mind!
Palm was "borked" long before Rubenstein ever got there.
I wasn't referring to Palm, the company. I was referring to Rubenstein's handling of the Pre.
I was a Palm developer for several years in the late 90's early 2000's. That company was run buy a bunch of monkeys. Palm had a huge (and loyal) developer base and they basically abandoned them and took the money and ran.
They burned a lot of developers and we're still bitter to this day. When the Pre was introduced, certain folks in management asked me to return to develop. I told those folks (friends for years) that I will never develop for them again, because even though the players have changed (Rubenstein), the corporate culture monkeys did not. After the Pre crashed-and-burned, again due to monkey-acts, those folks that tried to get me to come back to the platform had quit their jobs at Palm and told me afterwards that management hasn't changed at all and it was terrible working at Palm. Zero employee-morale.
The Pre actually had a shot. It was a long-shot, but they royally screwed it up and Rubenstein showed zero talent for taking the initiative. This is what I was referring to.
Palm was flatlining long before Rubenstein was around and thanks to him, he essentially was the final nail in Palm's coffin.
I obviously fail to understand what HP sees in Rubenstein's ability. I guess he must have sweet-talked them by playing his "I used to work at Apple" card.
I would actually like to see WebOS succeed. I think it's a better, more polished system than Android will ever be. But it still needs some serious attention if it expects to go up against iOS.
He thinks that Apple will release the iPad 2 in March, and follow that with another iPad in Sep-Oct -- possibly an additional high-end model, say an iPad HD with a retina display.
Interesting analysis behind this.
If this were to happen, my Big Question is: What does Apple do for an entry iPad in March?
My iSWAG estimate for the answer is the 32GB WiFi iPad gen 1 is offered at $299.
Look at their phones. They obviously think that physical keyboards and a more oval-ish shape matter to their target segment.
Why not put a stake in the ground and create a like-looking Touchpad with a physical keyboard and similar shape to that of their phone? It would at least have had the elan (and boldness) of design parallelism.
In their defence, I do know handful of business users who still feel they could not do phone without physical keyboard. It always boils down to blind typing while walking/driving/whatever.
Some of them I know have tried various Androids and iPhone, and some of them actually have second phone (iPhone or Android) and use them as personal devices, for media, music, games on the go... but still stick to BBs and Nokias for business.
I'd like to see keyboardless webOS phone, but I believe there's still market for keyboards. Does new Pre have virtual keyboard as well? Having full size screen (vs. BBs half size screens) and both physical and virtual keyboard could be handy for some users.
Good points and I will pickup on one...I know a lot of people are forced to have a business phone and a personal phone, but I would hate to have to charge, update, and take care of two phones. Never mind having to carry two of them around all day! Uggh! That would be worse than working in a cubicle on a desktop all day! Ugggh!
I think HP should take a good look at Nokia's tacit admission that they are losing the smartphone race to iOS and Android (Stephen Elop's "burning platform"). if HP wants to beat both Apple and Google in the phone & tablet business, they should assess their competitive position. I mean, Microsoft hasn't won back their lost phone OS marketshare (but these are the Ballmer years, so that may not mean much), and Palm managed to squeak out a tiny slice against Apple, RIM, and all the other handset makers. What's so new and different about HP's webOS that would make me give a rip?
On his major point, that we are at the beginning of the "post PC era" -- I agree with Gruber.
You and I have been around through the mainframe, mini, micro, then Personal Computer eras,
The one that personally slapped me in the face was when I bought a $2700 Apple ][ and realized that I had as much compute power as some of the 360 mainframes that my Employer, IBM, rented for several times more per month.
This, the "post PC era". started with the iPod, then the iPhone, now the iPad.
The iPod set the stage: the iPhone drew the attention -- and the iPad is going to bring computing to the masses... the real masses.
I think HP should take a good look at Nokia's tacit admission that they are losing the smartphone race to iOS and Android (Stephen Elop's "burning platform"). if HP wants to beat both Apple and Google in the phone & tablet business, they should assess their competitive position. I mean, Microsoft hasn't won back their lost phone OS marketshare (but these are the Ballmer years, so that may not mean much), and Palm managed to squeak out a tiny slice against Apple, RIM, and all the other handset makers. What's so new and different about HP's webOS that would make me give a rip?
On his major point, that we are at the beginning of the "post PC era" -- I agree with Gruber.
You and I have been around through the mainframe, mini, micro, then Personal Computer eras,
The one that personally slapped me in the face was when I bought a $2700 Apple ][ and realized that I had as much compute power as some of the 360 mainframes that my Employer, IBM, rented for several times more per month.
This, the "post PC era". started with the iPod, then the iPhone, now the iPad.
The iPod set the stage: the iPhone drew the attention -- and the iPad is going to bring computing to the masses... the real masses.
I can feel it in my gut!
I bet you can, too!
I agree with that, and it isn't even his idea. A lot of writers have been saying it. He's late to the game.
I don't agree with his idea that Apple will introduce an iPad3 in August or September.
Not releasing a non hardware keyboard 3.5" - 4" phone to compete with the iPhone and any number of Android and wp7 devices is the single most idiotic move by HP period.
Might as well be one sacrificial goat here who wishes Apple would release a model WITH a physical keyboard. They have their advantages which have been pointed out countless times, so won't rehash that.
My point is that it might only be the preference of 20-30%, but given the volumes of iDevices expected, that's still millions of units of potential sales Apple might be leaving to others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hasanahmad
Then Gates stole the interface, made the PC and Apple was temporarily forgotten. Who will be the Bill Gates of this generation.
Not so sure the smartphone and tablet wars will play out at all the same way as the PC OS wars did for lots of reasons.
Then: PC's were new and there was no real infrastructure for personal computing. IBM's backing made MS the winner. To the market at the time Jobs and Woz were two kids from a garage, and IBM owned 80%+ of the ENTIRE world computing market. People bet on the big boy. Commodore, TI and other wannabes wilted away and Apple survived its near death experience partly to help MS avoid anti-trust issues that might have caused them to have been broken up.
Now: The OS isn't really the entire battlefield this time. Because there is already a huge and established infrastructure for digital life - full of protocols and standards - for both companies and ordinary people, and because the Web is the ultimate OS, and more and more, the function of the device OS is measured in terms of how it gets users and data to and from there.
I'm hardly the first to point out that many of today's "apps" are merely conduits to the web that do something from irrelevant to fairly interesting with that connection, and that most of these are much more easily portable to multiple platforms than "programs" ever were (or are) between Macs and Windows machines.
So fewer opportunities for "killer apps" - because the internet IS where most of the important parts of the killer apps (like facebook, YouTube, gmail/hotmail, Windows Live/Google Docs and of course AppleInsider) are going to do most of their work already.
And everybody's tablets and smart phones (over the next few years) will become pretty proficient at the range of tasks most users want to accomplish and their interface quirks will improve. So a greater number of players can stick around this time.
Sun had it right in their vision, but well too far ahead of the reality for them: "The Net(work) Is the Computer."
And this time, on the device end - and the OS end - there are LOTS of big, well-captialized, long-standing companies (and partners of those and partners of those) in the fray.
Apple's well positioned to remain the market leader for the near term (as a single company - not necessarily arrayed against the entire world-wide Android industrial complex, e.g.) - and to remain the trend setter and premium experience provider for longer than that.
However, their long-term future depends on factors other than the fine interface and spec points we love to debate here.
First, they have to keep inventing entirely new device and interface classes that create new industries - they can never rest on being only in markets where all these competitors are. I have no idea what these will be, but I'll bet there's plenty of skunk works going on at Apple. They can do this because so far, everyone else is simply concentrating on getting into the markets Apple's already created, while they're free and have the resources to keep innovating. That is, as long as they're the rabbit and everyone else is the pack of greyhounds chasing the rabbit, no one can eclipse them, even if they can out-feature or outperform them at this task or that one.
Second, within their overall product lines, their technology and design chops will remain important, but their execution of pure business strategy (in all its many gritty aspects), partnerships and marketing will be just as if not more important in maturing market segments such as PC's and notebooks as well as those Apple's created with the Touch, iPhone and iPad. There's a lot of talented people with lots of resources working at companies not called Apple Inc. on the planet.
Oh, and third, they absolutely have to bring out that MMRM (the mythical mid-range Mac) any year now. Game, set and match, then. ;-D
Thanks. That's a good read. I more or less came to the same conclusion: deep down inside, HP is a hardware company, and historically, they are nowhere near as "vertical" as Apple. Long term, they may divest webOS or let it die like so many other technologies.
As for the new tablet and phones, releasing a bunch of spec sheets and photos of exterior cases isn't anything special. I'm not lusting after Mhz or Ghz anymore, but in overall user experience.
On his major point, that we are at the beginning of the "post PC era" -- I agree with Gruber.
You and I have been around through the mainframe, mini, micro, then Personal Computer eras,
The one that personally slapped me in the face was when I bought a $2700 Apple ][ and realized that I had as much compute power as some of the 360 mainframes that my Employer, IBM, rented for several times more per month.
This, the "post PC era". started with the iPod, then the iPhone, now the iPad.
The iPod set the stage: the iPhone drew the attention -- and the iPad is going to bring computing to the masses... the real masses.
Comments
At Best Buy, though, they might well steer you to the HP, unless they were making more money off one of the others
Not just BestBuy - manufactures like HP often offer SPIFs - I highly doubt Apple offers such things.
Technically it's not a commission from BestBuy - it's from the manufacturer. I dunno if they allow SPIFs - I haven't found anything conclusively one way or the other, but in this day and age if you aren't a little wary of sales people then shame on you.
And how many people who do want a computer are like that? Tens of thousands, hundreds, millions, tens of millions?
There's far more of them than there is of us....
Not just BestBuy - manufactures like HP often offer SPIFs - I highly doubt Apple offers such things.
Technically it's not a commission from BestBuy - it's from the manufacturer. I dunno if they allow SPIFs - I haven't found anything conclusively one way or the other, but in this day and age if you aren't a little wary of sales people then shame on you.
When we were an Apple reseller in 1978-1989' Apple offered SPIFs -- as did most of the hardware and software mfgrs.
RE WebOS on a PC.
Back in the dark pre-iPad days, attempts at tablets failed because they were by and large attempts to put a desktop OS, on a tablet.
iOS succeeded because it was a ground-up purpose designed touch-interface OS. Not a desktop OS, shoehorned onto a slate device. Witnessed MicroSoft's repeated failure in phones, because until WP7, they were obsessed with attempting to recreate the Windows experience on a phone/pda.
Now, it seems HP are making the exact same mistake in reverse. They are assuming that taking a touch-based OS (a fairly decent one) and adapting it for Keyboard/Mouse/Trackpad to work on desktop computer is a good thing. It isn't. For a desktop or laptop, you need an OS designed for one.
Certainly, HP has the buying power to buy things in bulk, but it sounds like Apple got first jump on securing best price by ordering early for screens and flash.
actually, tho larger than Apple by total revenues, in December HP reported it only had $11 billion in cash/equivalents, versus $22 billion in debt. whereas Apple last month reported $60 billion in cash/equivalents and $-0- debt!!
so, no, as a matter of fact HP CANNOT match Apple's ability to quickly lay out billions in advance to nail down its supply chain at best price. no one in the world can.
My impression, based solely on the engadget live blog images, was that these were PCs running webOS, not Windows machines with a webOS layer:
Looks like a boot screen, but really no details.
I believe it will be dual boot option.
HP already has it on some machines, likewise Asus. Asus calls it Express Gate and has web browser, photos, games (Flash based), instant messenger and Skype. It is claimed to boot in 5 seconds and, I believe, is based on some slim version of Linux.
Since HP owns WebOS, it sounds logical that they will utilize it instead of Linux wherever they can - desktops, laptops, printers and multifunctionals....
actually, tho larger than Apple by total revenues, in December HP reported it only had $11 billion in cash/equivalents, versus $22 billion in debt. whereas Apple last month reported $60 billion in cash/equivalents and $-0- debt!!
so, no, as a matter of fact HP CANNOT match Apple's ability to quickly lay out billions in advance to nail down its supply chain at best price. no one in the world can.
Good point! I'm sure there a lot more large companies that are "Debt-Free" but Apple and Toyota are the only ones that come to mind!
Best
Palm was "borked" long before Rubenstein ever got there.
I wasn't referring to Palm, the company. I was referring to Rubenstein's handling of the Pre.
I was a Palm developer for several years in the late 90's early 2000's. That company was run buy a bunch of monkeys. Palm had a huge (and loyal) developer base and they basically abandoned them and took the money and ran.
They burned a lot of developers and we're still bitter to this day. When the Pre was introduced, certain folks in management asked me to return to develop. I told those folks (friends for years) that I will never develop for them again, because even though the players have changed (Rubenstein), the corporate culture monkeys did not. After the Pre crashed-and-burned, again due to monkey-acts, those folks that tried to get me to come back to the platform had quit their jobs at Palm and told me afterwards that management hasn't changed at all and it was terrible working at Palm. Zero employee-morale.
The Pre actually had a shot. It was a long-shot, but they royally screwed it up and Rubenstein showed zero talent for taking the initiative. This is what I was referring to.
Palm was flatlining long before Rubenstein was around and thanks to him, he essentially was the final nail in Palm's coffin.
I obviously fail to understand what HP sees in Rubenstein's ability. I guess he must have sweet-talked them by playing his "I used to work at Apple" card.
I would actually like to see WebOS succeed. I think it's a better, more polished system than Android will ever be. But it still needs some serious attention if it expects to go up against iOS.
Gruber has some interesting ideas posted on his site:
http://daringfireball.net/
He thinks that Apple will release the iPad 2 in March, and follow that with another iPad in Sep-Oct -- possibly an additional high-end model, say an iPad HD with a retina display.
Interesting analysis behind this.
If this were to happen, my Big Question is: What does Apple do for an entry iPad in March?
My iSWAG estimate for the answer is the 32GB WiFi iPad gen 1 is offered at $299.
Game, Set and Match!
I don't think he's right.
There's far more of them than there is of us....
I don't know. Over 300 million computers sold last year.
I disagree completely.
Look at their phones. They obviously think that physical keyboards and a more oval-ish shape matter to their target segment.
Why not put a stake in the ground and create a like-looking Touchpad with a physical keyboard and similar shape to that of their phone? It would at least have had the elan (and boldness) of design parallelism.
In their defence, I do know handful of business users who still feel they could not do phone without physical keyboard. It always boils down to blind typing while walking/driving/whatever.
Some of them I know have tried various Androids and iPhone, and some of them actually have second phone (iPhone or Android) and use them as personal devices, for media, music, games on the go... but still stick to BBs and Nokias for business.
I'd like to see keyboardless webOS phone, but I believe there's still market for keyboards. Does new Pre have virtual keyboard as well? Having full size screen (vs. BBs half size screens) and both physical and virtual keyboard could be handy for some users.
Best
Yup, so obvious all tablets before the iPad looked like the iPad
Sure, after someone shows you the best way to do it, it's easy to say it's "blindingly obvious".
But if it was so blindingly obvious why did they not appear until after the iPad?
Your irrationality with this line of "reasoning" is just laughable.
Oh go away, silly man.
Can't stand being misquoted. I was talking about the dock, as was clear.
I am as big a fan of Apple's products as anyone but it's defensive facetiousness like that that gives rise the 'fanboi' moniker.
I don't think he's right.
On his major point, that we are at the beginning of the "post PC era" -- I agree with Gruber.
You and I have been around through the mainframe, mini, micro, then Personal Computer eras,
The one that personally slapped me in the face was when I bought a $2700 Apple ][ and realized that I had as much compute power as some of the 360 mainframes that my Employer, IBM, rented for several times more per month.
This, the "post PC era". started with the iPod, then the iPhone, now the iPad.
The iPod set the stage: the iPhone drew the attention -- and the iPad is going to bring computing to the masses... the real masses.
I can feel it in my gut!
I bet you can, too!
I think HP should take a good look at Nokia's tacit admission that they are losing the smartphone race to iOS and Android (Stephen Elop's "burning platform"). if HP wants to beat both Apple and Google in the phone & tablet business, they should assess their competitive position. I mean, Microsoft hasn't won back their lost phone OS marketshare (but these are the Ballmer years, so that may not mean much), and Palm managed to squeak out a tiny slice against Apple, RIM, and all the other handset makers. What's so new and different about HP's webOS that would make me give a rip?
Here's an article that responds to that thought:
http://www.infoworld.com/d/mobilize/...os-android-417
On his major point, that we are at the beginning of the "post PC era" -- I agree with Gruber.
You and I have been around through the mainframe, mini, micro, then Personal Computer eras,
The one that personally slapped me in the face was when I bought a $2700 Apple ][ and realized that I had as much compute power as some of the 360 mainframes that my Employer, IBM, rented for several times more per month.
This, the "post PC era". started with the iPod, then the iPhone, now the iPad.
The iPod set the stage: the iPhone drew the attention -- and the iPad is going to bring computing to the masses... the real masses.
I can feel it in my gut!
I bet you can, too!
I agree with that, and it isn't even his idea. A lot of writers have been saying it. He's late to the game.
I don't agree with his idea that Apple will introduce an iPad3 in August or September.
Not releasing a non hardware keyboard 3.5" - 4" phone to compete with the iPhone and any number of Android and wp7 devices is the single most idiotic move by HP period.
Might as well be one sacrificial goat here who wishes Apple would release a model WITH a physical keyboard. They have their advantages which have been pointed out countless times, so won't rehash that.
My point is that it might only be the preference of 20-30%, but given the volumes of iDevices expected, that's still millions of units of potential sales Apple might be leaving to others.
Then Gates stole the interface, made the PC and Apple was temporarily forgotten. Who will be the Bill Gates of this generation.
Not so sure the smartphone and tablet wars will play out at all the same way as the PC OS wars did for lots of reasons.
Then: PC's were new and there was no real infrastructure for personal computing. IBM's backing made MS the winner. To the market at the time Jobs and Woz were two kids from a garage, and IBM owned 80%+ of the ENTIRE world computing market. People bet on the big boy. Commodore, TI and other wannabes wilted away and Apple survived its near death experience partly to help MS avoid anti-trust issues that might have caused them to have been broken up.
Now: The OS isn't really the entire battlefield this time. Because there is already a huge and established infrastructure for digital life - full of protocols and standards - for both companies and ordinary people, and because the Web is the ultimate OS, and more and more, the function of the device OS is measured in terms of how it gets users and data to and from there.
I'm hardly the first to point out that many of today's "apps" are merely conduits to the web that do something from irrelevant to fairly interesting with that connection, and that most of these are much more easily portable to multiple platforms than "programs" ever were (or are) between Macs and Windows machines.
So fewer opportunities for "killer apps" - because the internet IS where most of the important parts of the killer apps (like facebook, YouTube, gmail/hotmail, Windows Live/Google Docs and of course AppleInsider) are going to do most of their work already.
And everybody's tablets and smart phones (over the next few years) will become pretty proficient at the range of tasks most users want to accomplish and their interface quirks will improve. So a greater number of players can stick around this time.
Sun had it right in their vision, but well too far ahead of the reality for them: "The Net(work) Is the Computer."
And this time, on the device end - and the OS end - there are LOTS of big, well-captialized, long-standing companies (and partners of those and partners of those) in the fray.
Apple's well positioned to remain the market leader for the near term (as a single company - not necessarily arrayed against the entire world-wide Android industrial complex, e.g.) - and to remain the trend setter and premium experience provider for longer than that.
However, their long-term future depends on factors other than the fine interface and spec points we love to debate here.
First, they have to keep inventing entirely new device and interface classes that create new industries - they can never rest on being only in markets where all these competitors are. I have no idea what these will be, but I'll bet there's plenty of skunk works going on at Apple. They can do this because so far, everyone else is simply concentrating on getting into the markets Apple's already created, while they're free and have the resources to keep innovating. That is, as long as they're the rabbit and everyone else is the pack of greyhounds chasing the rabbit, no one can eclipse them, even if they can out-feature or outperform them at this task or that one.
Second, within their overall product lines, their technology and design chops will remain important, but their execution of pure business strategy (in all its many gritty aspects), partnerships and marketing will be just as if not more important in maturing market segments such as PC's and notebooks as well as those Apple's created with the Touch, iPhone and iPad. There's a lot of talented people with lots of resources working at companies not called Apple Inc. on the planet.
Oh, and third, they absolutely have to bring out that MMRM (the mythical mid-range Mac) any year now. Game, set and match, then. ;-D
Here's an article that responds to that thought:
http://www.infoworld.com/d/mobilize/...os-android-417
Thanks. That's a good read. I more or less came to the same conclusion: deep down inside, HP is a hardware company, and historically, they are nowhere near as "vertical" as Apple. Long term, they may divest webOS or let it die like so many other technologies.
As for the new tablet and phones, releasing a bunch of spec sheets and photos of exterior cases isn't anything special. I'm not lusting after Mhz or Ghz anymore, but in overall user experience.
On his major point, that we are at the beginning of the "post PC era" -- I agree with Gruber.
You and I have been around through the mainframe, mini, micro, then Personal Computer eras,
The one that personally slapped me in the face was when I bought a $2700 Apple ][ and realized that I had as much compute power as some of the 360 mainframes that my Employer, IBM, rented for several times more per month.
This, the "post PC era". started with the iPod, then the iPhone, now the iPad.
The iPod set the stage: the iPhone drew the attention -- and the iPad is going to bring computing to the masses... the real masses.
I can feel it in my gut!
I bet you can, too!
Indeed we are. I feel it too, brother.