I don't know why Apple is being pro-consumer instead of pro-developer.
Sarcasm aside, do these developers realize that there is a choice? The Android Marketplace is just around the corner. Take your whining ass and go there if the App Store sucks.
If I'm at a discoteque that sucks, I go down the street to a discoteque that doesn't.
And if the child in question is 4 years old? Good luck trying to teach them not to click on the pretty smurfberry they need to expand their Smurf village. I wonder if you've ever been a parent. It's a lot easier to criticize than actually do.
IMO, a 4-year-old shouldn't be playing a videogame at all and certainly not independently of adult supervision. While playing games does develop eye-hand coordination, the hyperactivity gets in the way of kids' ability to read and learn at a normal pace according to various studies. That's one of the reasons we're raising a nation of idiots (IMO, of course.)
Having said that, I think there should be a control on the phone, similar to Location Services, that indicates whether in-app purchases are permitted and even if they are, a password should have to be re-entered.
But parents would still have to be smart enough not to give their kid their password.
""I've read one person in another thread here had watched their kid tap the screen quicker then they could snatch the device away. Re-auth in-apps... done""
While in the waiting room to see the Dr. last week, a lady came out and her son had an iPad. He was clicking away so fast on a game it was amazing. I asked her: How old is he? Two, she replied, and he knows how to use it better than I do. By the way it was HIS iPad, a Christmas gift from Grandpa.
Interesting also: She was talking to him in Bulgarian, and his father speaks to him in Chinese. She said, sometimes he gets English, Bulgarian and Chinese mixup, and has no problem with the iPad.
So a 2 year old can equate a screen tap to monetary responsibility? . . . I've read one person in another thread here had watched their kid tap the screen quicker then they could snatch the device away. Re-auth in-apps... done
You're not doing it right. "Bobby, every time you tap the screen, an invisible vacuum sucks money from my wallet."
Your final sentence summarizes exactly what Apple can do to improve iOS. (Others on this thread should not interpret this statement as "parents don't have any responsibility.")
All those defending the parents in this case are the reason these problems exist. I am a parent and my kids are not allow to do these things. It is made very clear to them in no uncertain terms what is allowed and if they can not be responsible they loose the privileged. And when my kids do something which is not allowed they have to pay for it out of their pocket.
Also, I am not naive, I know my kids do things they maybe should not be doing, I monitor their activities and step in when I know it makes sense. I already blocked their internet access and disable their phones to let them know I have the power.
As someone said some kids are more tech savvy than their parents, but tech savvy has nothing to do with it. I see it all the time, the parents do not care to know what their kids are doing. I agree Apple probably did the right thing from a business stand point, however, people should be held responsible and being ignorant is not a good trait to put forward as the reason you should be refunded and that is exactly what those parents did.
The simple solution to this problem and Apple already has it in place, have each child create their own itunes account and this can be done with a gift card and not the parents credit card. This way the kid can down load games and what not on their account and if they had gift cards they can charge up the account and when the money runs out oh well.
I did this with my kids and the interesting affect is that both of their account still have money in them from gift cards they have gotten over time. The best outcome was they stop asking me to buy and download apps on my computer. Oh the other thing, I never allow them to down load directly to the device they have to do on the computer. So they do not have my passwords, and I know my kids tried to memory or guess it so I change it from time to time.
People the safe guards are there, you just have to use them.
For those who are not Tech Savvy enough to protect yours kids, you know any picture taken by the iphone that you or your child post to the web like Facebook or other picture website contain Geotag information and predators are out there combing these site and getting pictures of your child and there exact location where they might be found on any give day or time.
Isn't it cute to post your lovely kid's pictures to the web and share.
Does playing Smurf's Village require (or strongly suggested) in-app purchasing? If so, it is clearly then not a free app.
Free apps are free to download and use. Apple should make some other distinction on their site for these kind of things...
What is stopping from developers to add all sorts of BS add-on garbage to their apps tricking people into entering their iTunes accounts...
While I have not played Smurfs, I have played some "free" games that have in app purchases. The ones I have played still allow you to play the game without making any in app purchases, it just takes time to build up resources, etc. So, if you are a patient person you can still have an enjoyable time. So, I would guess that you can play Smurfs just fine without any purchases as long as you are not impatient. That being said, most children are being raised in a world of instant gratification and it is not surprising that they would jump on the chance to speed things up.
...and I thought I sometimes was to quick to blame the parents.
One of the first posters to this thread already said exactly what I was going to. Entering one's password to install an app shouldn't also authorize in-app purchases for 1 second let alone 15 minutes. This really isn't the fault of parent's or children, this is a horrible payment authorization system that is coupled to device authorization. I view this as a privilege escalation bug, namely me authorizing the installtion of a free app on my device being escalated to the authorization of payment for in-app purchases.
I'm sure parents typed in their passwords to _install_ the "free" kids game, 10 minutes later their kid hits a button for smurf berries and boom $99 charge to the account without requiring authorization.
All those defending the parents in this case are the reason these problems exist.
The issue really has nothing to do with good/bad parenting. The issue is user expectation. I'll venture to say that the vast majority of iOSers make purchases sporadically (not in 15 minute binges). Each time they are asked for a password. Well, one might assume that other purchases will prompt for a password also. The ease of the purchase also makes it more prone to accidental buying. A cat could walk across the thing and buy a bushel of smurfberries.
Hmm, these iPhone users should really read through that thick manual that comes in the box until they get to the section that details the 15 minute password caching.
...and I thought I sometimes was to quick to blame the parents.
a privilege escalation bug, namely me authorizing the installtion of a free app on my device being escalated to the authorization of payment for in-app purchases.
You're obviously not getting it. There's no need for Apple to change anything since people already have one or more ways of preventing it.
(Am I right or am I right? Agree with me, and we'll just forget all that nonsense you posted earlier? )
I don't think it is the developers fault if parents failed to keep an eye on theirs or their children iPhone/iPods. I bought my son an iPod touch and the first thing I did was disable everything (Safari, Youtube, iTunes, App Store.. etc). When I purchase new game I never hand him back the iPod until I disable the app store and test the game to make sure the game is appropriate.
It seems that most parents these days need someone to parent them too
I spent many happy hours "testing" my children's games too.
Does anyone remember the help lines of the nineties?
Premium numbers advertised in game manuals with a fine print disclaimer to ask parent's permission before calling.
They could also consider a preference to enable a password for all in-app purchases which will be on or off by default based on user preference.
That is basically what the parental restrictions are.
Quote:
As for Smurf's Village, owning up to the fact I do not own it and the in-app purchases may not be clearly labeled?parents do need to accept some responsibility here.
yep they do. Like the woman that is yelling for a class action suit after her four year old racked up a huge bill with the help of the older sister who was given the password by their parents.
Apple does need to make one simple change. After an App Store download they need to require a re-login to make an in app purchase (even if it allows future in-app purchases for a period of time). They could also consider a preference to enable a password for all in-app purchases which will be on or off by default based on user preference.
As for Smurf's Village, owning up to the fact I do not own it and the in-app purchases may not be clearly labeled?parents do need to accept some responsibility here. Also, I imagine much of this increased ire is because Smurf's Village has become a media darling as of late?but if these charges people are complaining about truly aren't purchases the parents authorized (and they didn't do something stupid like give the child the password to their account) then the concern is legitimate.
They don't NEED to *require* anything additional. I'm already tired of entering my password as much as they require. Kids break things and mess stuff up.. you can click to buy a lot of things on an iPhone or iPad.. it's your fault if you aren't supervising them or, at the very least, using the restrictions page.
You're obviously not getting it. There's no need for Apple to change anything since people already have one or more ways of preventing it.
(Am I right or am I right? Agree with me, and we'll just forget all that nonsense you posted earlier? )
Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong.
First please understand I could care less about "the parents and children" in this scenario. This isn't about protecting parents from their children. The problem seems to me to start with the iOS/iTunes ecosystem being unique in effectively using the same user account authorization information for what appears to be installation of an app as it does for iTunes purchases. Now this is really authorizing the purchase of a free app, but perception matters here. This perception doesn't just apply to in-app purchases either. Finally people do NOT currently have a way of preventing this behavior. It is bad system in need of changing.
Look... I just typed in my password to install a free app. I think re-sprung springboard and installed another app without typing in my password... so I went for a full power off reboot... same thing, no request for the password... so I did full "hold down both buttons reset" and STILL no request for a password to install more apps...
I can understand and support caching the password for 15 minutes to allow multiple apps to be purchased and installed.
I can understand and support caching the password for 15 minutes or even permanently (per app) to allow multiple in-app purchases to be made.
I can not support or get behind the password being requested via the app store for the installation of a free app and 10 minutes later after a full reboot still allowing in-app purchases to be made without reentering the password.
One could require apps have a preference menu "Allow In-App Purchases" that is preset to Off, or even "All in-App Purchases must be confirmed" preset to True. That would avoid some of the accidental purchases by people hitting a wrong button.
Comments
Sarcasm aside, do these developers realize that there is a choice? The Android Marketplace is just around the corner. Take your whining ass and go there if the App Store sucks.
If I'm at a discoteque that sucks, I go down the street to a discoteque that doesn't.
yeah, judging by the posts here most people believe that as soon as you become a parent you become stupid.
No, stupid parents were also stupid before they became parents.
And if the child in question is 4 years old? Good luck trying to teach them not to click on the pretty smurfberry they need to expand their Smurf village. I wonder if you've ever been a parent. It's a lot easier to criticize than actually do.
IMO, a 4-year-old shouldn't be playing a videogame at all and certainly not independently of adult supervision. While playing games does develop eye-hand coordination, the hyperactivity gets in the way of kids' ability to read and learn at a normal pace according to various studies. That's one of the reasons we're raising a nation of idiots (IMO, of course.)
Having said that, I think there should be a control on the phone, similar to Location Services, that indicates whether in-app purchases are permitted and even if they are, a password should have to be re-entered.
But parents would still have to be smart enough not to give their kid their password.
While in the waiting room to see the Dr. last week, a lady came out and her son had an iPad. He was clicking away so fast on a game it was amazing. I asked her: How old is he? Two, she replied, and he knows how to use it better than I do. By the way it was HIS iPad, a Christmas gift from Grandpa.
Interesting also: She was talking to him in Bulgarian, and his father speaks to him in Chinese. She said, sometimes he gets English, Bulgarian and Chinese mixup, and has no problem with the iPad.
So a 2 year old can equate a screen tap to monetary responsibility? . . . I've read one person in another thread here had watched their kid tap the screen quicker then they could snatch the device away. Re-auth in-apps... done
You're not doing it right.
Your final sentence summarizes exactly what Apple can do to improve iOS. (Others on this thread should not interpret this statement as "parents don't have any responsibility.")
Also, I am not naive, I know my kids do things they maybe should not be doing, I monitor their activities and step in when I know it makes sense. I already blocked their internet access and disable their phones to let them know I have the power.
As someone said some kids are more tech savvy than their parents, but tech savvy has nothing to do with it. I see it all the time, the parents do not care to know what their kids are doing. I agree Apple probably did the right thing from a business stand point, however, people should be held responsible and being ignorant is not a good trait to put forward as the reason you should be refunded and that is exactly what those parents did.
The simple solution to this problem and Apple already has it in place, have each child create their own itunes account and this can be done with a gift card and not the parents credit card. This way the kid can down load games and what not on their account and if they had gift cards they can charge up the account and when the money runs out oh well.
I did this with my kids and the interesting affect is that both of their account still have money in them from gift cards they have gotten over time. The best outcome was they stop asking me to buy and download apps on my computer. Oh the other thing, I never allow them to down load directly to the device they have to do on the computer. So they do not have my passwords, and I know my kids tried to memory or guess it so I change it from time to time.
People the safe guards are there, you just have to use them.
For those who are not Tech Savvy enough to protect yours kids, you know any picture taken by the iphone that you or your child post to the web like Facebook or other picture website contain Geotag information and predators are out there combing these site and getting pictures of your child and there exact location where they might be found on any give day or time.
Isn't it cute to post your lovely kid's pictures to the web and share.
1 bucket of s...$4.99
2 bushel of s...$9.99
3 barrel of s...$24.99
4 bucket of s...$4.99
5 bushel of s...$11.99
6 wagon of s...$99.99
7 wheelbarr...$49.99
8 wheelbarr...$59.99
9 barrel of s...$29.99
Does playing Smurf's Village require (or strongly suggested) in-app purchasing? If so, it is clearly then not a free app.
Free apps are free to download and use. Apple should make some other distinction on their site for these kind of things...
What is stopping from developers to add all sorts of BS add-on garbage to their apps tricking people into entering their iTunes accounts...
While I have not played Smurfs, I have played some "free" games that have in app purchases. The ones I have played still allow you to play the game without making any in app purchases, it just takes time to build up resources, etc. So, if you are a patient person you can still have an enjoyable time. So, I would guess that you can play Smurfs just fine without any purchases as long as you are not impatient. That being said, most children are being raised in a world of instant gratification and it is not surprising that they would jump on the chance to speed things up.
Those dirty Smurfs. They are so wily.
Smurf #1: Hey, did you have a good time last night?
Smurf #2: Smurf-tacular!
Smurf #1: Yeah, I saw you leave with Smurfette.
Smurf #2: Oh man, as soon as we got out of the bar, she started smurfing me.
Smurf #1: Shut the Smurf up!
Smurf #2: Yeah!
Smurf #1: Right in the Smurfing parking lot?
Smurf #2: Smurf-Yeah!
Smurf #1: Oh! That is freaking Smurf!
One of the first posters to this thread already said exactly what I was going to. Entering one's password to install an app shouldn't also authorize in-app purchases for 1 second let alone 15 minutes. This really isn't the fault of parent's or children, this is a horrible payment authorization system that is coupled to device authorization. I view this as a privilege escalation bug, namely me authorizing the installtion of a free app on my device being escalated to the authorization of payment for in-app purchases.
I'm sure parents typed in their passwords to _install_ the "free" kids game, 10 minutes later their kid hits a button for smurf berries and boom $99 charge to the account without requiring authorization.
All those defending the parents in this case are the reason these problems exist.
The issue really has nothing to do with good/bad parenting. The issue is user expectation. I'll venture to say that the vast majority of iOSers make purchases sporadically (not in 15 minute binges). Each time they are asked for a password. Well, one might assume that other purchases will prompt for a password also. The ease of the purchase also makes it more prone to accidental buying. A cat could walk across the thing and buy a bushel of smurfberries.
Hmm, these iPhone users should really read through that thick manual that comes in the box until they get to the section that details the 15 minute password caching.
...and I thought I sometimes was to quick to blame the parents.
a privilege escalation bug, namely me authorizing the installtion of a free app on my device being escalated to the authorization of payment for in-app purchases.
You're obviously not getting it. There's no need for Apple to change anything since people already have one or more ways of preventing it.
(Am I right or am I right? Agree with me, and we'll just forget all that nonsense you posted earlier?
Smurf #1: Hey, did you have a good time last night?
Smurf #2: Smurf-tacular!
Smurf #1: Yeah, I saw you leave with Smurfette.
Smurf #2: Oh man, as soon as we got out of the bar, she started smurfing me.
Smurf #1: Shut the Smurf up!
Smurf #2: Yeah!
Smurf #1: Right in the Smurfing parking lot?
Smurf #2: Smurf-Yeah!
Smurf #1: Oh! That is freaking Smurf!
Please, oh please, do not procreate!
Top in app purchases
1 bucket of s...$4.99
2 bushel of s...$9.99
3 barrel of s...$24.99
4 bucket of s...$4.99
5 bushel of s...$11.99
6 wagon of s...$99.99
7 wheelbarr...$49.99
8 wheelbarr...$59.99
9 barrel of s...$29.99
I'm sorry, but this "free" childrens game is a scam plain and simple. Why should a game for little kids have in-app purchases in the first place?
I don't think it is the developers fault if parents failed to keep an eye on theirs or their children iPhone/iPods. I bought my son an iPod touch and the first thing I did was disable everything (Safari, Youtube, iTunes, App Store.. etc). When I purchase new game I never hand him back the iPod until I disable the app store and test the game to make sure the game is appropriate.
It seems that most parents these days need someone to parent them too
I spent many happy hours "testing" my children's games too.
Does anyone remember the help lines of the nineties?
Premium numbers advertised in game manuals with a fine print disclaimer to ask parent's permission before calling.
This is not a new thing.
They could also consider a preference to enable a password for all in-app purchases which will be on or off by default based on user preference.
That is basically what the parental restrictions are.
As for Smurf's Village, owning up to the fact I do not own it and the in-app purchases may not be clearly labeled?parents do need to accept some responsibility here.
yep they do. Like the woman that is yelling for a class action suit after her four year old racked up a huge bill with the help of the older sister who was given the password by their parents.
Apple does need to make one simple change. After an App Store download they need to require a re-login to make an in app purchase (even if it allows future in-app purchases for a period of time). They could also consider a preference to enable a password for all in-app purchases which will be on or off by default based on user preference.
As for Smurf's Village, owning up to the fact I do not own it and the in-app purchases may not be clearly labeled?parents do need to accept some responsibility here. Also, I imagine much of this increased ire is because Smurf's Village has become a media darling as of late?but if these charges people are complaining about truly aren't purchases the parents authorized (and they didn't do something stupid like give the child the password to their account) then the concern is legitimate.
They don't NEED to *require* anything additional. I'm already tired of entering my password as much as they require. Kids break things and mess stuff up.. you can click to buy a lot of things on an iPhone or iPad.. it's your fault if you aren't supervising them or, at the very least, using the restrictions page.
You're obviously not getting it. There's no need for Apple to change anything since people already have one or more ways of preventing it.
(Am I right or am I right? Agree with me, and we'll just forget all that nonsense you posted earlier?
Sorry but you couldn't be more wrong.
First please understand I could care less about "the parents and children" in this scenario. This isn't about protecting parents from their children. The problem seems to me to start with the iOS/iTunes ecosystem being unique in effectively using the same user account authorization information for what appears to be installation of an app as it does for iTunes purchases. Now this is really authorizing the purchase of a free app, but perception matters here. This perception doesn't just apply to in-app purchases either. Finally people do NOT currently have a way of preventing this behavior. It is bad system in need of changing.
Look... I just typed in my password to install a free app. I think re-sprung springboard and installed another app without typing in my password... so I went for a full power off reboot... same thing, no request for the password... so I did full "hold down both buttons reset" and STILL no request for a password to install more apps...
I can understand and support caching the password for 15 minutes to allow multiple apps to be purchased and installed.
I can understand and support caching the password for 15 minutes or even permanently (per app) to allow multiple in-app purchases to be made.
I can not support or get behind the password being requested via the app store for the installation of a free app and 10 minutes later after a full reboot still allowing in-app purchases to be made without reentering the password.