All these biased attitudes and prejudices ( if you look closely ) don't have ANY basis in fact. Being able to express the universe and exisistance in simple terms is already a proven fact.
We are all the same. We are all made from the same stuff. We all live on the same ball of rock flying through space. There is no master race. No one should come before everyone else.
The petty things that people squable about are meaningless. You're black, I'm white, you're a Jew, you're Catholic, the Americans have more, we're better, argh! People make the world complex and hard to manage. But, it doesn't have to be that way. But in order for it to change ( so we don't finish ourselves off ) we have to grow up a little. We have to grow beyond those none existant differences.
Okay with your last post I can see we are not that far apart. I´ll answer the "what if you were in our shoes" later. Have a long day tomorrow so I need some sleep.
SDW2001: [quote]I must be a facist!<hr></blockquote>
No, you're a flag-waving nationalist.
[quote]I also LOVE, truly and deeply, how people put words in my mouth. Somehow my post was perverted into my saying that "man, we kick ass....EVERYONE must want to live here among us truck drivin' country-western listenin', Bud drinkin' Americans" <hr></blockquote>
You said it, not me, in your original post:
[quote]If you resent us, I understand why... you decide to hate us because we have what we have.<hr></blockquote>
[quote]I am open to possibility that the World Bank and IMF cause problems, but I'm not going to take your word for it. Your allegations of police brutality in this nation are also totally absurd.
You actually mean to tell me that THE POLICE caused riots in Seattle? I suppose it wasn't the liberal sheep that were there with baseball bats? Did they have right to loot and riot?<hr></blockquote>
The riots in Seattle, if you looked beyond the corporate media whitewash and got some first-hand facts from people who were actually there, were caused firstly by the unpreparedness of the SPD to handle a sudden influx of over 50000 people, and the panic-reaction of the SPD, who were totally inexperienced in this scale of crowd control, when the violence started.
You are right in that the SPD did not start the riots: the looting and window-smashing was started by a small group of a few hundred (many wearing black masks). They were not associated with the protest mainstream; the trade unions and other parties who organized the protest are mad and angry as hell with the bozos who messed up the whole thing. The corporate media subsequently and predictably tarred *all* the parties and gave the anti-WTO/IMF movement a bad name in mainstream America.
Once the rioting started, the local beer-swilling idiots who love a fight and a fracas (just as they do in sporting events every week throughout America and Europe) took the reins and had a drunken free-for-all. Of course some got themselves arrested too, but that's nothing special for the 'saturday-night louts' who also used the protest as an 'opportunity' to have 'fun'.
Strangely (or *not* perhaps), only a few of these opportunist "black-clad anarchists" were actually arrested by the Seattle Police Department. Virtually all of those (anarchists) who were arrested were let go and not charged. Inquiries by protest organizers to the SPD as to the identity of these militants have led to a total lack of cooperation, or a "haven't a clue, drop it" type of reaction. The vast majority of those arrested were taken in just because they were there, or defending themselves. Some were even bewildered non-participants from who were minding their own business in their front yards as SPD units chased legitimate protesters into subdivisions and residential areas, pepperspray flying.
It's hard not to notice the current and extraordinary paranoia displayed by various police departments when dealing with people who use their 1st Amendment rights to protest things such as global capitalism and related issues. It is odd how the police are so wary of the colorful and predominantly peaceful collection of enviros, trade unionists, students, lefties, puppeteers, dancers, and buskers etc. The punishments and treatment meted out to peaceful counter-cultural protesters, often for just being associated, are often extreme (hows about a year in jail without charge as an example).This is in stark contrast to the slap-on-the-wrist dealt to spectator-sports rioters.
It appears that peaceful, organized protest with predominantly leftwing causes is seen by U.S. mainstream society and the corporate media as a far greater threat than a bunch of drunken punks, fighting, throwing bottles and smashing windows after football and hockey games. Middle America still has its traditional values.
>It is encouraging, however, to see sane people from around the world voicing the distinctly non-American POV on this board. Americans would do well to heed thier words, or at least consider them, if planes are to stop smashing into World Trade Centers and Pentagons<
I don't think you meant that comment to sound as stupid as it did. Terrorist attacks will stop as long as we do everything the terrorists want? Gee, thats a sound foreign policy! I guess we would have been better off if we had allowed Iraq to control Kuwait. Hey, maybe we should abandon an ally, Israel, the way Europe did to prevent bad people from attacking us! Gee, thats the answer. How pathetic. How European................................
[quote] AND, it is YOU who are basing your opinions on stereotypes and half-thruths. Show ME some solid evidence that the IMF and World Bank. as well as NAFTA hurt poor nations more than they help them. Since you are making the complaint, the burden of proof lies on YOU, not me. <hr></blockquote>
Umm, NAFTA only involves 3 countries... Canada, Mexico and the USA. I wouldn't reall either of them a 'poor' country. Get your facts straight.
[quote] I called you hopeless because your totally unsubstantiated liberal wacko hatred of the IMF and World Bank is ridiculous. I love seeing people at these rallies demonstrating against captialism. Never mind that many protest groups have weekly meetings and FUNDRAISERS to RAISE CAPTIAL for their activities. HELLO? <hr></blockquote>
Don't be such an idiot. How are people supposed to pay for travel, accomodation and food to and at these demonstrations? I don't know... duuuuh, with money??? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> Or how about having excellent guest speakers to come in and lecture - that requires money you know. The rental of the space to fit hundreds of people inside kind of needs to be paid for in money.
I have given you some good examples of how IMF policies have ****ed nations up beyond repair. If you want, I can give you web address where you can read about why. Oh wait, you don't want to hear anyone else's side but your own.
Also, if you actually want to learn about what really happened in Seattle, go out and watch "This is what democracy looks like". It was shot on the streets of Seattle and it shows an unbiased account of how the police reacted to peaceful protestors.
In answer to the post above, it's not about "doing everything the terrorists want". Prevention is better than cure, for one, and for two, "Everyone who hates the USA? FAOD", posted on the first page of this thread and the gist of a coupla American posts here, is a cast-iron guarantee for more September 11-orientated atrocities. And none of us want that.
Actually, I will volunteer to be first in line for FAOD-ing duty. Just a coupla things first.
America's got 5% of the world's population and uses just under a quarter of the world's mineral resources. That's not too cool, but why didn't you sign up in Kyoto? Do you not feel any responsibility at all? Not a touch? No?
STOP PRESS: Bush administration today acknowledges that global warming is real and has a detrimental effect on sea-levels and rainfall! [The Guardian, June 5, front page]. IT'S 2002. Better late than never, so bring out the bunting and crack open the Premier Cru. Oh, wait, STILL THEY WON'T CURB C02 EMISSIONS.
"Why do they all hate us?" (in voice of 10-year-old girl.)
Where's our international court? (Squished with the US veto goddammit!)
When will those responsible for the assassinations / imprisonment / overthrow of Nkrumah, Mandela, Walter Sisulu, Allende, et al, ad infinitum, almost, stand trial? (I admit this isn't going to happen: it just riles me. Grr...)
"Why do they all hate us?" (in the voice of eight-year-old boy.)
Debt? Don't tell me about national debt! Never mind Malawi, Eritrea or Kenya. The Bank of England owes a sum equivalent to £4.50 for every adult man and woman in the country to the US Treasury, to be finally payed off in 2006. This is payable for money borrowed at the end of World War II. Oh THANK YOU, America, THANK YOU for getting off your arses and helping the UK fight the fascists and making sure we don't speak German today. Years late. And then making a tidy profit from it. And then making films about it where Americans win the war in Europe single-handedly and the Brits just get in the way when more of us died then you. Of COURSE we love you.
Super job you did helping to overthrow democratically elected governments in Chile, Nicaragua, Mocambique, Angola. Good, stable, economically thrusting countries now, all of them. But at least they're not socialist states, huh?
I'd better FAOD now. As Noah J put it, "The US is the greatest nation in the world" and I don't want to wee on your bonfire.
One last thing: in Cuba they have a higher literacy rate and fewer infant mortalities than in the United States of America despite an illegal maritime blocade of thirty years standing.
Did I forget in my list of meaningless differences Republicans and Democrats?
By the way it's not that I don't have respect for those differences. I have the greatist respect for different people's points of view, nationality etc. It's just that as long as they aren't holding a gun to your head to think like them do they always have to be percieved as a threat?
That kind of thinking goes back to a much more primative time. You wouldn't believe how far back.
>In answer to the post above, it's not about "doing everything the terrorists want". Prevention is better than cure, for one, and for two, "Everyone who hates the USA? FAOD", posted on the first page of this thread and the gist of a coupla American posts here, is a cast-iron guarantee for more September 11-orientated atrocities. And none of us want that.<
The US doesn't cave in to extremists.
>America's got 5% of the world's population and uses just under a quarter of the world's mineral resources. That's not too cool, but why didn't you sign up in Kyoto? Do you not feel any responsibility at all? Not a touch? No?<
The US didn't sign on to Kyoto because it left China off scot-free. We shouldn't have pulled out completely, but renegotiated it. rest assured that environmentalists such as myself will continue to push for stronger environmental regs.
>STOP PRESS: Bush administration today acknowledges that global warming is real and has a detrimental effect on sea-levels and rainfall! [The Guardian, June 5, front page]. IT'S 2002. Better late than never, so bring out the bunting and crack open the Premier Cru. Oh, wait, STILL THEY WON'T CURB C02 EMISSIONS.<
The man ain't too bright on more than one item. But he's still the Prez for a few more years.
>Super job you did helping to overthrow democratically elected governments in Chile, Nicaragua, Mocambique, Angola. Good, stable, economically thrusting countries now, all of them. But at least they're not socialist states, huh?<
We have made major screwups over the years, but I tend to doubt that another country would have done any better. Communism was considered a real threat, not just here but all over Europe. Hindsight is very easy when you live in the present.
>One last thing: in Cuba they have a higher literacy rate and fewer infant mortalities than in the United States of America despite an illegal maritime blocade of thirty years standing.<
And they are drowning in rickety boats trying to get to the US. Kinda tells you something. Not that I believe in embargos on food or medicine.......................................... .......
In answer to the post above, it's not about "doing everything the terrorists want". Prevention is better than cure, for one, and for two, "Everyone who hates the USA? FAOD", posted on the first page of this thread and the gist of a coupla American posts here, is a cast-iron guarantee for more September 11-orientated atrocities. And none of us want that.
Actually, I will volunteer to be first in line for FAOD-ing duty. Just a coupla things first.
America's got 5% of the world's population and uses just under a quarter of the world's mineral resources. That's not too cool, but why didn't you sign up in Kyoto? Do you not feel any responsibility at all? Not a touch? No?
STOP PRESS: Bush administration today acknowledges that global warming is real and has a detrimental effect on sea-levels and rainfall! [The Guardian, June 5, front page]. IT'S 2002. Better late than never, so bring out the bunting and crack open the Premier Cru. Oh, wait, STILL THEY WON'T CURB C02 EMISSIONS.
"Why do they all hate us?" (in voice of 10-year-old girl.)
Where's our international court? (Squished with the US veto goddammit!)
When will those responsible for the assassinations / imprisonment / overthrow of Nkrumah, Mandela, Walter Sisulu, Allende, et al, ad infinitum, almost, stand trial? (I admit this isn't going to happen: it just riles me. Grr...)
"Why do they all hate us?" (in the voice of eight-year-old boy.)
Debt? Don't tell me about national debt! Never mind Malawi, Eritrea or Kenya. The Bank of England owes a sum equivalent to £4.50 for every adult man and woman in the country to the US Treasury, to be finally payed off in 2006. This is payable for money borrowed at the end of World War II. Oh THANK YOU, America, THANK YOU for getting off your arses and helping the UK fight the fascists and making sure we don't speak German today. Years late. And then making a tidy profit from it. And then making films about it where Americans win the war in Europe single-handedly and the Brits just get in the way when more of us died then you. Of COURSE we love you.
Super job you did helping to overthrow democratically elected governments in Chile, Nicaragua, Mocambique, Angola. Good, stable, economically thrusting countries now, all of them. But at least they're not socialist states, huh?
I'd better FAOD now. As Noah J put it, "The US is the greatest nation in the world" and I don't want to wee on your bonfire.
One last thing: in Cuba they have a higher literacy rate and fewer infant mortalities than in the United States of America despite an illegal maritime blocade of thirty years standing.
Toodleoo.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Also hopeless.
1. We cannot and will not change foreign policy based on terrorism.
2. Kyoto hasn't been ratified by CONGRESS, and for good reason.
3. Bush is obviously a lot smarter than some people think. They wanted to REVIEW all previous Clinton administration policies before reenacting them. Maybe they should have just rubber stamped them? And NEWSFLASH: Global warming is still a THEORY. Weather patterns take thousands of years to emerge. We are STILL not sure if it is actually happening. Look at the Ozone Layer....now they are saying it's regenerating!
4. The international court could subject US and other military personnel to binding legal action outside the US, even in the event of ACCIDENTAL civilian deaths during an operation. Wow. Great idea there.
5. All of Europe would indeed be speaking German without the US. And don't forget, Roosevelt wanted us in the war earlier.
6. Chile, Nicaragua, Mocambique, Angola: There was a reason for those. They didn't just wake up one morning and decide to invade.
7. Cuba. I agree with steve666.......Why are people literally dying to get here then?
And whoever made the comment about mexico not being poor......one thing to say: BWWHAHAHAHAHA.
[quote]We cannot and will not change foreign policy based on terrorism. <hr></blockquote>
No, the point is prevention is better than cure, they detest you for a reason and "those that hate the US can FOAD" shows, er, bad listening skills. It'll happen again. That was my point.
[quote] Kyoto hasn't been ratified by CONGRESS, and for good reason.<hr></blockquote>
Namely the loss of American jobs. The rest of the world can FOAD, where the 'd' stands for 'drown' in the case of the South Pacific atolls. It's happening now, as the people of Madagascar and Mocambique, for two, will tell you. (You do get some international news in the US media, I take it, so explanation is unnecessary.)
[quote] And NEWSFLASH: Global warming is still a THEORY. Weather patterns take thousands of years to emerge. We are STILL not sure if it is actually happening. <hr></blockquote>
Oh Jesus, we're doomed. Smoking doesn't cause lung cancer, according to Phillip Morris Inc. The only place in the world where global warming is still a theory is in the US.
"Why do they all hate us?" (in voice of petulant nine-year-old.)
[quote]The international court could subject US and other military personnel to binding legal action outside the US, even in the event of ACCIDENTAL civilian deaths during an operation. Wow. Great idea there. <hr></blockquote>
This court "could subject US and other military personnel to binding legal action outside the US." Yes. Exactly. What's so special about the US that puts it above judicial process?
"Why do they say we're arrogant?" (in voice of foolish adolescent.)
1) The rest of the world wants it.
2) America doesn't.
3) The world can, I quote, "FOAD".
[quote]All of Europe would indeed be speaking German without the US. And don't forget, Roosevelt wanted us in the war earlier. <hr></blockquote>
This is factually incorrect. Roosevelt, despite some great and very famous begging letters from Winston C, wouldn't be budged until the last minute. US isolationism's a whole 'nother topic, though. And purty boring. Suffice it to say you're wrong.
[quote] Chile, Nicaragua, Mocambique, Angola: There was a reason for those. They didn't just wake up one morning and decide to invade. <hr></blockquote>
Now, this is the doozy. What, precisely, was the 'reason?' And what, precisely, gives the US the right to overthrow democratically elected governments simply because you don't like their complexion? And you wonder why people think you arrogant?
Look, let's say: I think you're killing the planet. I'd love to overthrow the US government, really I would, and if I had the CIA and / or a huge army at my disposal I think I'd have a bash. This is bad. As appalling as your government is, it's still been elected by consensus (almost, anyways) I wouldn't really have the right. But as long as it's Africans or South Americans, fück 'em, right? What, precisely, was the 'reason?'
The reason doesn't matter. You had no right. Finish.
[quote]Cuba. I agree with steve666.......Why are people literally dying to get here then? <hr></blockquote>
You tell me. Your blocade's thirty years old, illegal, and it can't be much fun living there.
Global warming may be a young theory that isn't completely understood but, we do know :
A. We do have an affect on the climate much as natural disaters do ( volcanos, forrest fires etc. ).
B. Our affect isn't good. The warming of the earths temp. is real and if unchecked could have disasterous affects.
C. We have already seen enough to be concerned. The other planet in our solar system about our size is Venus. It's surface isn't hot enough to melt lead because of it's proximity to the Sun. It's an extreme case of global warming. Venus has no moon. A large natural body in close orbit can have a big effect on weather patterns. Stir them up so to speak. If venus had a moon it might not have been too different from the Earth.
If you only knew how many things in this world we don't fully understand how they work but we know they happen.
Many people would like to pretend Gloabal Warming doesn't exist. They are fools.
[quote]No, the point is prevention is better than cure, they detest you for a reason and "those that hate the US can FOAD" shows, er, bad listening skills. It'll happen again. That was my point. <hr></blockquote>
How will prevention happen, by changing our policies to avoid terrorist attack? RIGHT. I wonder what happens the next time terrorists want something? Hmmmm.......Prevention will happen through all the resources of our federal government and others. This includes the very military that is on the soil of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. Also, I never said "FOAD". That was someone else. Many detest not just the US, but ALL western nations. So, get ready, London isn't far behind. If the US doesn't fight a war on terror, who will?
[quote]Namely the loss of American jobs. The rest of the world can FOAD, where the 'd' stands for 'drown' in the case of the South Pacific atolls. It's happening now, as the people of Madagascar and Mocambique, for two, will tell you. (You do get some international news in the US media, I take it, so explanation is unnecessary.) <hr></blockquote>
Kyoto would indeed cost American jobs, and with questionable gains from it. Or, have you bought into the liberal mindset so much that you believe Kyoto is as I said "the be all and all of environmental treaties"? And as far as international news goes, you again are showing your ignorance by implying that the US doesn't get much international news....which is riduculous. That is a stereotype and you have accepted it.
[quote]Oh Jesus, we're doomed. Smoking doesn't cause lung cancer, according to Phillip Morris Inc. The only place in the world where global warming is still a theory is in the US. <hr></blockquote>
1. Your attempt at painting me as someone who buys the corporate line all the time is pathetic. Global warming IS NOT a fact, though I am inclined to agree it very well may exist. But I also haven't bought into the environmental lobby's bullshit either. We had a thing here a few years back on the spotted owl's habitat. The environmentalists convinced folks that loggers were destroying the owl's habitat. Thousands lost their jobs. Entire towns dispapeared off the map. Guess what though? We found out recently the whole thing was sham! It was a HOAX! Am I suggesting that global warming is a hoax? Not really. But one must at least ackoweldge the possibility that the changes seen over the past 50 years are insignificant and/or not caused by our emissions.
[quote]Yes. Exactly. What's so special about the US that puts it above judicial process? <hr></blockquote>
Because US personnel should be accountable to THEIR government. Ditto with your folks.
[quote]This is factually incorrect. Roosevelt, despite some great and very famous begging letters from Winston C, wouldn't be budged until the last minute. US isolationism's a whole 'nother topic, though. And purty boring. Suffice it to say you're wrong. <hr></blockquote>
Roosevelt did want us to enter the war. Perhaps not as fast as Churchill wanted, agreed.
Quote:
Now, this is the doozy. What, precisely, was the 'reason?' And what, precisely, gives the US the right to overthrow democratically elected governments simply because you don't like their complexion? And you wonder why people think you arrogant? <hr></blockquote>
You brought it up, not me. And we have overthrown governments for much more reason than "complexion" as you put it.
[QUOTEAs appalling as your government is, it's still been elected by consensus (almost, anyways) I wouldn't really have the right. But as long as it's Africans or South Americans, fück 'em, right? What, precisely, was the 'reason?'
The reason doesn't matter. You had no right. Finish.
Well, we did it anyway. And your goverment probably helped, being that we have such a "special relationship", so get of that high horse for a moment. We had the right because we are the world's police, whether we want to be or not. It is our responsibility.
[quote]You tell me. Your blocade's thirty years old, illegal, and it can't be much fun living there. <hr></blockquote>
It's not a real blockade...it is a trade embargo. That's different. We did actually blockade it once, but that was to prevent more nuclear missles from arriving in '68. Not the same thing. We can choose to trade with whoever we want to. And, right now we don't want to trade with a nation that is so closed, it makes China look like a free- for-all.
Comments
We are all the same. We are all made from the same stuff. We all live on the same ball of rock flying through space. There is no master race. No one should come before everyone else.
The petty things that people squable about are meaningless. You're black, I'm white, you're a Jew, you're Catholic, the Americans have more, we're better, argh! People make the world complex and hard to manage. But, it doesn't have to be that way. But in order for it to change ( so we don't finish ourselves off ) we have to grow up a little. We have to grow beyond those none existant differences.
No, you're a flag-waving nationalist.
[quote]I also LOVE, truly and deeply, how people put words in my mouth. Somehow my post was perverted into my saying that "man, we kick ass....EVERYONE must want to live here among us truck drivin' country-western listenin', Bud drinkin' Americans" <hr></blockquote>
You said it, not me, in your original post:
[quote]If you resent us, I understand why... you decide to hate us because we have what we have.<hr></blockquote>
[ 06-05-2002: Message edited by: stimuli ]</p>
You actually mean to tell me that THE POLICE caused riots in Seattle? I suppose it wasn't the liberal sheep that were there with baseball bats? Did they have right to loot and riot?<hr></blockquote>
The riots in Seattle, if you looked beyond the corporate media whitewash and got some first-hand facts from people who were actually there, were caused firstly by the unpreparedness of the SPD to handle a sudden influx of over 50000 people, and the panic-reaction of the SPD, who were totally inexperienced in this scale of crowd control, when the violence started.
You are right in that the SPD did not start the riots: the looting and window-smashing was started by a small group of a few hundred (many wearing black masks). They were not associated with the protest mainstream; the trade unions and other parties who organized the protest are mad and angry as hell with the bozos who messed up the whole thing. The corporate media subsequently and predictably tarred *all* the parties and gave the anti-WTO/IMF movement a bad name in mainstream America.
Once the rioting started, the local beer-swilling idiots who love a fight and a fracas (just as they do in sporting events every week throughout America and Europe) took the reins and had a drunken free-for-all. Of course some got themselves arrested too, but that's nothing special for the 'saturday-night louts' who also used the protest as an 'opportunity' to have 'fun'.
Strangely (or *not* perhaps), only a few of these opportunist "black-clad anarchists" were actually arrested by the Seattle Police Department. Virtually all of those (anarchists) who were arrested were let go and not charged. Inquiries by protest organizers to the SPD as to the identity of these militants have led to a total lack of cooperation, or a "haven't a clue, drop it" type of reaction. The vast majority of those arrested were taken in just because they were there, or defending themselves. Some were even bewildered non-participants from who were minding their own business in their front yards as SPD units chased legitimate protesters into subdivisions and residential areas, pepperspray flying.
It's hard not to notice the current and extraordinary paranoia displayed by various police departments when dealing with people who use their 1st Amendment rights to protest things such as global capitalism and related issues. It is odd how the police are so wary of the colorful and predominantly peaceful collection of enviros, trade unionists, students, lefties, puppeteers, dancers, and buskers etc. The punishments and treatment meted out to peaceful counter-cultural protesters, often for just being associated, are often extreme (hows about a year in jail without charge as an example).This is in stark contrast to the slap-on-the-wrist dealt to spectator-sports rioters.
It appears that peaceful, organized protest with predominantly leftwing causes is seen by U.S. mainstream society and the corporate media as a far greater threat than a bunch of drunken punks, fighting, throwing bottles and smashing windows after football and hockey games. Middle America still has its traditional values.
Sigh.
[ 06-05-2002: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>
I don't think you meant that comment to sound as stupid as it did. Terrorist attacks will stop as long as we do everything the terrorists want? Gee, thats a sound foreign policy! I guess we would have been better off if we had allowed Iraq to control Kuwait. Hey, maybe we should abandon an ally, Israel, the way Europe did to prevent bad people from attacking us! Gee, thats the answer. How pathetic. How European................................
<strong>
... It seems that Republicans get them in, and Democrats take care of them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I'm always impressed with the compassion people have when they're using other people's money.
Umm, NAFTA only involves 3 countries... Canada, Mexico and the USA. I wouldn't reall either of them a 'poor' country. Get your facts straight.
[quote] I called you hopeless because your totally unsubstantiated liberal wacko hatred of the IMF and World Bank is ridiculous. I love seeing people at these rallies demonstrating against captialism. Never mind that many protest groups have weekly meetings and FUNDRAISERS to RAISE CAPTIAL for their activities. HELLO? <hr></blockquote>
Don't be such an idiot. How are people supposed to pay for travel, accomodation and food to and at these demonstrations? I don't know... duuuuh, with money??? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> Or how about having excellent guest speakers to come in and lecture - that requires money you know. The rental of the space to fit hundreds of people inside kind of needs to be paid for in money.
I have given you some good examples of how IMF policies have ****ed nations up beyond repair. If you want, I can give you web address where you can read about why. Oh wait, you don't want to hear anyone else's side but your own.
Also, if you actually want to learn about what really happened in Seattle, go out and watch "This is what democracy looks like". It was shot on the streets of Seattle and it shows an unbiased account of how the police reacted to peaceful protestors.
In answer to the post above, it's not about "doing everything the terrorists want". Prevention is better than cure, for one, and for two, "Everyone who hates the USA? FAOD", posted on the first page of this thread and the gist of a coupla American posts here, is a cast-iron guarantee for more September 11-orientated atrocities. And none of us want that.
Actually, I will volunteer to be first in line for FAOD-ing duty. Just a coupla things first.
America's got 5% of the world's population and uses just under a quarter of the world's mineral resources. That's not too cool, but why didn't you sign up in Kyoto? Do you not feel any responsibility at all? Not a touch? No?
STOP PRESS: Bush administration today acknowledges that global warming is real and has a detrimental effect on sea-levels and rainfall! [The Guardian, June 5, front page]. IT'S 2002. Better late than never, so bring out the bunting and crack open the Premier Cru. Oh, wait, STILL THEY WON'T CURB C02 EMISSIONS.
"Why do they all hate us?" (in voice of 10-year-old girl.)
Where's our international court? (Squished with the US veto goddammit!)
When will those responsible for the assassinations / imprisonment / overthrow of Nkrumah, Mandela, Walter Sisulu, Allende, et al, ad infinitum, almost, stand trial? (I admit this isn't going to happen: it just riles me. Grr...)
"Why do they all hate us?" (in the voice of eight-year-old boy.)
Debt? Don't tell me about national debt! Never mind Malawi, Eritrea or Kenya. The Bank of England owes a sum equivalent to £4.50 for every adult man and woman in the country to the US Treasury, to be finally payed off in 2006. This is payable for money borrowed at the end of World War II. Oh THANK YOU, America, THANK YOU for getting off your arses and helping the UK fight the fascists and making sure we don't speak German today. Years late. And then making a tidy profit from it. And then making films about it where Americans win the war in Europe single-handedly and the Brits just get in the way when more of us died then you. Of COURSE we love you.
Super job you did helping to overthrow democratically elected governments in Chile, Nicaragua, Mocambique, Angola. Good, stable, economically thrusting countries now, all of them. But at least they're not socialist states, huh?
I'd better FAOD now. As Noah J put it, "The US is the greatest nation in the world" and I don't want to wee on your bonfire.
One last thing: in Cuba they have a higher literacy rate and fewer infant mortalities than in the United States of America despite an illegal maritime blocade of thirty years standing.
Toodleoo.
By the way it's not that I don't have respect for those differences. I have the greatist respect for different people's points of view, nationality etc. It's just that as long as they aren't holding a gun to your head to think like them do they always have to be percieved as a threat?
That kind of thinking goes back to a much more primative time. You wouldn't believe how far back.
[QB]This is fun.
>In answer to the post above, it's not about "doing everything the terrorists want". Prevention is better than cure, for one, and for two, "Everyone who hates the USA? FAOD", posted on the first page of this thread and the gist of a coupla American posts here, is a cast-iron guarantee for more September 11-orientated atrocities. And none of us want that.<
The US doesn't cave in to extremists.
>America's got 5% of the world's population and uses just under a quarter of the world's mineral resources. That's not too cool, but why didn't you sign up in Kyoto? Do you not feel any responsibility at all? Not a touch? No?<
The US didn't sign on to Kyoto because it left China off scot-free. We shouldn't have pulled out completely, but renegotiated it. rest assured that environmentalists such as myself will continue to push for stronger environmental regs.
>STOP PRESS: Bush administration today acknowledges that global warming is real and has a detrimental effect on sea-levels and rainfall! [The Guardian, June 5, front page]. IT'S 2002. Better late than never, so bring out the bunting and crack open the Premier Cru. Oh, wait, STILL THEY WON'T CURB C02 EMISSIONS.<
The man ain't too bright on more than one item. But he's still the Prez for a few more years.
>Super job you did helping to overthrow democratically elected governments in Chile, Nicaragua, Mocambique, Angola. Good, stable, economically thrusting countries now, all of them. But at least they're not socialist states, huh?<
We have made major screwups over the years, but I tend to doubt that another country would have done any better. Communism was considered a real threat, not just here but all over Europe. Hindsight is very easy when you live in the present.
>One last thing: in Cuba they have a higher literacy rate and fewer infant mortalities than in the United States of America despite an illegal maritime blocade of thirty years standing.<
And they are drowning in rickety boats trying to get to the US. Kinda tells you something. Not that I believe in embargos on food or medicine.......................................... .......
<a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel012202.shtml"; target="_blank">http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel012202.shtml</a>;
<a href="http://freehenson.da.ru/"; target="_blank">http://freehenson.da.ru/</a>;
<strong>This is fun.
In answer to the post above, it's not about "doing everything the terrorists want". Prevention is better than cure, for one, and for two, "Everyone who hates the USA? FAOD", posted on the first page of this thread and the gist of a coupla American posts here, is a cast-iron guarantee for more September 11-orientated atrocities. And none of us want that.
Actually, I will volunteer to be first in line for FAOD-ing duty. Just a coupla things first.
America's got 5% of the world's population and uses just under a quarter of the world's mineral resources. That's not too cool, but why didn't you sign up in Kyoto? Do you not feel any responsibility at all? Not a touch? No?
STOP PRESS: Bush administration today acknowledges that global warming is real and has a detrimental effect on sea-levels and rainfall! [The Guardian, June 5, front page]. IT'S 2002. Better late than never, so bring out the bunting and crack open the Premier Cru. Oh, wait, STILL THEY WON'T CURB C02 EMISSIONS.
"Why do they all hate us?" (in voice of 10-year-old girl.)
Where's our international court? (Squished with the US veto goddammit!)
When will those responsible for the assassinations / imprisonment / overthrow of Nkrumah, Mandela, Walter Sisulu, Allende, et al, ad infinitum, almost, stand trial? (I admit this isn't going to happen: it just riles me. Grr...)
"Why do they all hate us?" (in the voice of eight-year-old boy.)
Debt? Don't tell me about national debt! Never mind Malawi, Eritrea or Kenya. The Bank of England owes a sum equivalent to £4.50 for every adult man and woman in the country to the US Treasury, to be finally payed off in 2006. This is payable for money borrowed at the end of World War II. Oh THANK YOU, America, THANK YOU for getting off your arses and helping the UK fight the fascists and making sure we don't speak German today. Years late. And then making a tidy profit from it. And then making films about it where Americans win the war in Europe single-handedly and the Brits just get in the way when more of us died then you. Of COURSE we love you.
Super job you did helping to overthrow democratically elected governments in Chile, Nicaragua, Mocambique, Angola. Good, stable, economically thrusting countries now, all of them. But at least they're not socialist states, huh?
I'd better FAOD now. As Noah J put it, "The US is the greatest nation in the world" and I don't want to wee on your bonfire.
One last thing: in Cuba they have a higher literacy rate and fewer infant mortalities than in the United States of America despite an illegal maritime blocade of thirty years standing.
Toodleoo.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Also hopeless.
1. We cannot and will not change foreign policy based on terrorism.
2. Kyoto hasn't been ratified by CONGRESS, and for good reason.
3. Bush is obviously a lot smarter than some people think. They wanted to REVIEW all previous Clinton administration policies before reenacting them. Maybe they should have just rubber stamped them? And NEWSFLASH: Global warming is still a THEORY. Weather patterns take thousands of years to emerge. We are STILL not sure if it is actually happening. Look at the Ozone Layer....now they are saying it's regenerating!
4. The international court could subject US and other military personnel to binding legal action outside the US, even in the event of ACCIDENTAL civilian deaths during an operation. Wow. Great idea there.
5. All of Europe would indeed be speaking German without the US. And don't forget, Roosevelt wanted us in the war earlier.
6. Chile, Nicaragua, Mocambique, Angola: There was a reason for those. They didn't just wake up one morning and decide to invade.
7. Cuba. I agree with steve666.......Why are people literally dying to get here then?
And whoever made the comment about mexico not being poor......one thing to say: BWWHAHAHAHAHA.
[ 06-06-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
No, the point is prevention is better than cure, they detest you for a reason and "those that hate the US can FOAD" shows, er, bad listening skills. It'll happen again. That was my point.
[quote] Kyoto hasn't been ratified by CONGRESS, and for good reason.<hr></blockquote>
Namely the loss of American jobs. The rest of the world can FOAD, where the 'd' stands for 'drown' in the case of the South Pacific atolls. It's happening now, as the people of Madagascar and Mocambique, for two, will tell you. (You do get some international news in the US media, I take it, so explanation is unnecessary.)
[quote] And NEWSFLASH: Global warming is still a THEORY. Weather patterns take thousands of years to emerge. We are STILL not sure if it is actually happening. <hr></blockquote>
Oh Jesus, we're doomed. Smoking doesn't cause lung cancer, according to Phillip Morris Inc. The only place in the world where global warming is still a theory is in the US.
"Why do they all hate us?" (in voice of petulant nine-year-old.)
[quote]The international court could subject US and other military personnel to binding legal action outside the US, even in the event of ACCIDENTAL civilian deaths during an operation. Wow. Great idea there. <hr></blockquote>
This court "could subject US and other military personnel to binding legal action outside the US." Yes. Exactly. What's so special about the US that puts it above judicial process?
"Why do they say we're arrogant?" (in voice of foolish adolescent.)
1) The rest of the world wants it.
2) America doesn't.
3) The world can, I quote, "FOAD".
[quote]All of Europe would indeed be speaking German without the US. And don't forget, Roosevelt wanted us in the war earlier. <hr></blockquote>
This is factually incorrect. Roosevelt, despite some great and very famous begging letters from Winston C, wouldn't be budged until the last minute. US isolationism's a whole 'nother topic, though. And purty boring. Suffice it to say you're wrong.
[quote] Chile, Nicaragua, Mocambique, Angola: There was a reason for those. They didn't just wake up one morning and decide to invade. <hr></blockquote>
Now, this is the doozy. What, precisely, was the 'reason?' And what, precisely, gives the US the right to overthrow democratically elected governments simply because you don't like their complexion? And you wonder why people think you arrogant?
Look, let's say: I think you're killing the planet. I'd love to overthrow the US government, really I would, and if I had the CIA and / or a huge army at my disposal I think I'd have a bash. This is bad. As appalling as your government is, it's still been elected by consensus (almost, anyways) I wouldn't really have the right. But as long as it's Africans or South Americans, fück 'em, right? What, precisely, was the 'reason?'
The reason doesn't matter. You had no right. Finish.
[quote]Cuba. I agree with steve666.......Why are people literally dying to get here then? <hr></blockquote>
You tell me. Your blocade's thirty years old, illegal, and it can't be much fun living there.
<strong>What does mean FOAD ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
F**k Off And Die.
Uh, that's an answer to your question, not a request.
A. We do have an affect on the climate much as natural disaters do ( volcanos, forrest fires etc. ).
B. Our affect isn't good. The warming of the earths temp. is real and if unchecked could have disasterous affects.
C. We have already seen enough to be concerned. The other planet in our solar system about our size is Venus. It's surface isn't hot enough to melt lead because of it's proximity to the Sun. It's an extreme case of global warming. Venus has no moon. A large natural body in close orbit can have a big effect on weather patterns. Stir them up so to speak. If venus had a moon it might not have been too different from the Earth.
If you only knew how many things in this world we don't fully understand how they work but we know they happen.
Many people would like to pretend Gloabal Warming doesn't exist. They are fools.
[ 06-06-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
<strong>
.
Uh, that's an answer to your question, not a request.
Thanks for the precision
[quote]No, the point is prevention is better than cure, they detest you for a reason and "those that hate the US can FOAD" shows, er, bad listening skills. It'll happen again. That was my point. <hr></blockquote>
How will prevention happen, by changing our policies to avoid terrorist attack? RIGHT. I wonder what happens the next time terrorists want something? Hmmmm.......Prevention will happen through all the resources of our federal government and others. This includes the very military that is on the soil of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. Also, I never said "FOAD". That was someone else. Many detest not just the US, but ALL western nations. So, get ready, London isn't far behind. If the US doesn't fight a war on terror, who will?
[quote]Namely the loss of American jobs. The rest of the world can FOAD, where the 'd' stands for 'drown' in the case of the South Pacific atolls. It's happening now, as the people of Madagascar and Mocambique, for two, will tell you. (You do get some international news in the US media, I take it, so explanation is unnecessary.) <hr></blockquote>
Kyoto would indeed cost American jobs, and with questionable gains from it. Or, have you bought into the liberal mindset so much that you believe Kyoto is as I said "the be all and all of environmental treaties"? And as far as international news goes, you again are showing your ignorance by implying that the US doesn't get much international news....which is riduculous. That is a stereotype and you have accepted it.
[quote]Oh Jesus, we're doomed. Smoking doesn't cause lung cancer, according to Phillip Morris Inc. The only place in the world where global warming is still a theory is in the US. <hr></blockquote>
1. Your attempt at painting me as someone who buys the corporate line all the time is pathetic. Global warming IS NOT a fact, though I am inclined to agree it very well may exist. But I also haven't bought into the environmental lobby's bullshit either. We had a thing here a few years back on the spotted owl's habitat. The environmentalists convinced folks that loggers were destroying the owl's habitat. Thousands lost their jobs. Entire towns dispapeared off the map. Guess what though? We found out recently the whole thing was sham! It was a HOAX! Am I suggesting that global warming is a hoax? Not really. But one must at least ackoweldge the possibility that the changes seen over the past 50 years are insignificant and/or not caused by our emissions.
[quote]Yes. Exactly. What's so special about the US that puts it above judicial process? <hr></blockquote>
Because US personnel should be accountable to THEIR government. Ditto with your folks.
[quote]This is factually incorrect. Roosevelt, despite some great and very famous begging letters from Winston C, wouldn't be budged until the last minute. US isolationism's a whole 'nother topic, though. And purty boring. Suffice it to say you're wrong. <hr></blockquote>
Roosevelt did want us to enter the war. Perhaps not as fast as Churchill wanted, agreed.
Now, this is the doozy. What, precisely, was the 'reason?' And what, precisely, gives the US the right to overthrow democratically elected governments simply because you don't like their complexion? And you wonder why people think you arrogant? <hr></blockquote>
You brought it up, not me. And we have overthrown governments for much more reason than "complexion" as you put it.
[QUOTEAs appalling as your government is, it's still been elected by consensus (almost, anyways) I wouldn't really have the right. But as long as it's Africans or South Americans, fück 'em, right? What, precisely, was the 'reason?'
The reason doesn't matter. You had no right. Finish.
Well, we did it anyway. And your goverment probably helped, being that we have such a "special relationship", so get of that high horse for a moment. We had the right because we are the world's police, whether we want to be or not. It is our responsibility.
[quote]You tell me. Your blocade's thirty years old, illegal, and it can't be much fun living there. <hr></blockquote>
It's not a real blockade...it is a trade embargo. That's different. We did actually blockade it once, but that was to prevent more nuclear missles from arriving in '68. Not the same thing. We can choose to trade with whoever we want to. And, right now we don't want to trade with a nation that is so closed, it makes China look like a free- for-all.
[ 06-06-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]
[ 06-06-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
This usually involves altering the truth or putting it in a way that doesn't make it sound so bad.
[ 06-06-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>