Insider Mac OS X 10.7 Lion: Auto Save, File Versions and Time Machine

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 72
    moijkmoijk Posts: 6member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bodypainter View Post


    when i hear that they removed rosetta or frontrow then i am not sure if the new OS is a step forward. at the moment i feel very unhappy about those changes. I feel like apple is on the wrong track, and we'll soon have updated all our systems, and will be very disapointed about all the lost features, wrongly changed user interface and even weird features under the hood (for example the removed "program is running"-dots).



    Everything Lion introduce is optional. IF you don't like versions - don't use whatever supports version. It won't be a universial feature, probably most software will not support it (right away). If you don't like the ipadish launchpad, don't use it. if you want everything to be as snow leopard, options are available for that. if you want front row, I'm quite sure it is available as seperate download. Rosetta might be gone, but can't say I care. I have the license to one software stuck back in the ppc days, but not installed in years.



    I will try out the new feature before I judge them. And if I don't like them, so be it. but I look forward to the changes - espesially those below the surface, like improved security.
  • Reply 22 of 72
    luinilluinil Posts: 59member
    - misread a post -
  • Reply 23 of 72
    nilsennilsen Posts: 3member
    I actually like the idea of automatic saving like it is done on iOS. For example on "pages" for iPad, you get a "folder" of all documents you have created inside the app. So when you want a overview of every pages document you have stored, you just open pages instead of browsing through finder.



    I believe that does make document file management a lot easier for most users. But then again it is crucial that they add a way to create folders there.



    -nilsen
  • Reply 24 of 72
    stuffestuffe Posts: 391member
    It's a step in the right direction, but it's not there yet. There needs to be some way of providing user-differentiation between saved versions, rather than only having the timeline to help you choose from. It's versioning, but it's not version control.



    I'd like to see the ability to add Tags when saving a version or include some system if identifying what type of version you have just saved. Having minor/major version control and version numbering could be useful, as well as the options to control sharing the file whereby the recipient only has access to the Current version, or only the most recent Major version, but not Drafts etc. A bit like what you can get when using a Sharepoint Document LIbrary.



    This could be easily defaulted to the file ownership permissions, whereby the default version control as set per-app could be only the author can see all revisions, others can only see major versions, and everyone can see the current version.



    As simple preference for "Tag on Save?" would allow you to set these each time you make a manual save (with auto-saves merely taking the existing tagging).



    Although for those that were concerned, I think if you were to send a copy out and were worried about the history, saving as a duplicate does not carry over history, and would work fine.
  • Reply 25 of 72
    lorrelorre Posts: 396member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by scotty321 View Post


    The biggest problem with versions is other people seeing PREVIOUS VERSIONS of a document that you NEVER INTENDED THEM TO SEE!



    If you're working on a long document to send to someone, and then you email someone that document, that person can GO BACK THROUGH YOUR ENTIRE HISTORY OF THAT DOCUMENT AND SEE ALL OF YOUR CHANGES THROUGHOUT TIME!



    This is a GIGANTIC concern.



    As a result, Apple has made our lives more difficult, because if you want to send a document to somebody else, you now have to duplicate that document or save it as a version, and then email THAT duplicate file to somebody else.



    And if you forget to do that, then you're screwed.



    Is this something you know because you're running the developer preview, or are you just speculating?



    It would appear to me that if you E-mail a file, it has to be compatible with every file system out there, so I can imagine it will not automatically include all previous versions of that file.



    Most, if not all Lion concerns can be refuted with the following arguments:



    1) There's an option to turn it off

    2) Ignore the feature and do like you did in Snow Leopard

    3) That's the OS's job, not yours, and it's actually a 30 year old flaw in OS design. Time to make a paradigm shift



    I can imagine people missing Front Row, but there are much much more powerful freeware alternatives out there (Plex and XBMC for instance). As for Rosetta, well... do you really want to use software that hasn't been updated in the last 6 years? If so, you're really in a minority and you can still dual boot Snow Leopard. (or Tiger, like tose claiming that was the best OSX evahr)



    Like someone else stated: operating systems are a means to an end, and should get out of your way as much as possible.
  • Reply 26 of 72
    realisticrealistic Posts: 1,138member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bodypainter View Post


    this new version of the OS gives me a bad feeling in the guts. I am happy that apple has such success with the ipad, but i am NOT convinced that the operating system was the reason of the success. what works on the ipad will defenetly NOT work on the mac. for example: I hate the way the ipad manages files and folders. it is ok on the ipad, because you don't work on it, but it is very stupid on the mac. versions may sound cool in theory, but look at it closer: how many people have problems with timemachine and restoring old files? many! i feel unhappy if such unstable system is part of my secure business life!



    it is also a question of trust. i don't like the idea that anyone who sits on my computer has a VERY high potential to for example read old information. someone suggested he wrote his last will and changed it. it's a nightmare to imagine all the side effects to this unnecessary feature!



    when i hear that they removed rosetta or frontrow then i am not sure if the new OS is a step forward. at the moment i feel very unhappy about those changes. I feel like apple is on the wrong track, and we'll soon have updated all our systems, and will be very disapointed about all the lost features, wrongly changed user interface and even weird features under the hood (for example the removed "program is running"-dots).



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bodypainter View Post


    obviously apple wants us to buy even more memoy for our systems and faster chips. everyone who reads this: just click on EVERY icon on your dock, start ALL programs, and you'll see how it works!



    if apple was a car company, you could only fill up your car on the apple gas station, and once you drive into the station, your car will automatically be filled up with the most expensive fuel until there is no space left in your car.



    this car will also have a steering wheel, but to go to a certain point, you'll have to type in the adress and the car automatically drives there in a way the apple car wants. a way that might be good, but maybe also totally wrong. but it's an apple car, you can not say anything, it just does it.



    Dell is having a sale on a PC, I recommend that you go buy one. You will be much happier, as will I.
  • Reply 27 of 72
    stuffestuffe Posts: 391member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lorre View Post


    Is this something you know because you're running the developer preview, or are you just speculating?



    It would appear to me that if you E-mail a file, it has to be compatible with every file system out there, so I can imagine it will not automatically include all previous versions of that file.



    Most, if not all Lion concerns can be refuted with the following arguments:



    1) There's an option to turn it off

    2) Ignore the feature and do like you did in Snow Leopard

    .



    I have used the Versions feature and can confirm



    1) There is no way to turn it off in the apps that currently support it, the only way to avoid using it is to change your ways and use "Duplicate" instead of "Save as Version". There is no seperate "Save as" or just "Save"

    2) You can't ignore it, you have to use it, or learn a new way to save



    If you email a file to someone, then it largely depends on what they are running. If they are also running Lion, they will see the revisions. If they are running notepad on Windows you won't. It's not a filesystem distinction, it's a function of the application to understand the feature. That's why Leopard Textedit won't understand it, even if it has access to the file from the exact location where Lion Textedit saved it.
  • Reply 28 of 72
    wingswings Posts: 261member
    All these new features are fine, and represents the inevitable progression to the next level. Except that this new version is going to cost me dearly in order to keep up. In my business I use many apps that are PowerPC, and many of those are rather expensive. Lion will force me to buy new versions of all these even though the existing versions I have serve me well and I have no need or desire to upgrade them to the latest. (Why should I, if they serve my needs?) I was also planning to upgrade my Mac Pro (V8) to the latest & greatest Pro sometime this summer, but not if it comes with Lion. Lion would double the cost of an upgrade. So I guess I'll be hanging on to Snow Leopard until I absolutely HAVE to have a new system, or I win the lottery.



    I have happily jumped on board with Apple's new systems since January 1984. But not this time.
  • Reply 29 of 72
    stuffestuffe Posts: 391member
    For clarification, the article reads as though Time Machine can only see snapshots created for and of documents created with Versions compatible applications. This is wide of the mark, TM now supports creating differential snapshots at a file (not filesystem) level for any and all files on the system, not just versioned documents. These snapshots are stored on your machine locally until such time as you attach a Time Machine disk, and it then copies them off. So now TM is in effect backing up at a block not file level, and only backing u changes within files, not whole files. Even if you never attach a Time Machine backup disk, it will retain local copies in the same way as if they were on a proper backup disk - this will increase disk usage, but should be managed by the OS to remove snapshots as require should space be needed for other things. It's quite a big change, and not well understood at the moment, but a really great improvement. Also, TM backups can now be encrypted - just say so at the point in which you designate a disk for backups. This is independent of the actual machine encryption preferences.



    Hope this helps
  • Reply 30 of 72
    stuffestuffe Posts: 391member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wings View Post


    All these new features are fine, and represents the inevitable progression to the next level. Except that this new version is going to cost me dearly in order to keep up. In my business I use many apps that are PowerPC, and many of those are rather expensive. Lion will force me to buy new versions of all these even though the existing versions I have serve me well and I have no need or desire to upgrade them to the latest. (Why should I, if they serve my needs?) I was also planning to upgrade my Mac Pro (V8) to the latest & greatest Pro sometime this summer, but not if it comes with Lion. Lion would double the cost of an upgrade. So I guess I'll be hanging on to Snow Leopard until I absolutely HAVE to have a new system, or I win the lottery.



    I have happily jumped on board with Apple's new systems since January 1984. But not this time.



    If you old apps still server your needs, then surely your old OS also still serves your needs? If you haven;t upgraded your Apps, then your existing setup should remain the same (to an extent) as they day you bought it. Why bother upgrading the OS if you don;t change your Apps? Are you on Snow Leopard? As that would be the most pointless upgrade ever if you weren't intent on using modern apps written in the latest APIs etc. If your Apps won't work and can't use the new OS features, why do you need a new OS?
  • Reply 31 of 72
    lorrelorre Posts: 396member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stuffe View Post


    For clarification, the article reads as though Time Machine can only see snapshots created for and of documents created with Versions compatible applications. This is wide of the mark, TM now supports creating differential snapshots at a file (not filesystem) level for any and all files on the system, not just versioned documents. These snapshots are stored on your machine locally until such time as you attach a Time Machine disk, and it then copies them off. So now TM is in effect backing up at a block not file level, and only backing u changes within files, not whole files. Even if you never attach a Time Machine backup disk, it will retain local copies in the same way as if they were on a proper backup disk - this will increase disk usage, but should be managed by the OS to remove snapshots as require should space be needed for other things. It's quite a big change, and not well understood at the moment, but a really great improvement. Also, TM backups can now be encrypted - just say so at the point in which you designate a disk for backups. This is independent of the actual machine encryption preferences.



    Hope this helps



    Sounds interesting... So does this mean that even if I delete a file, my Mac will still "keep" it soewhere so I can recover it afterwards? Even though I have no Time Machine drive attached?



    Sounds like a really cool feature, but I wonder how this works on systems with small or nearly full hard drives. Imagine a 64GB MBA 11" for example.
  • Reply 32 of 72
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rtdunham View Post


    Sometimes we need protection from these improvements meant to help us. Just one example, with "versions".



    As I understand it, if i have a document three years old, and have edited it on a number of occasions, it's gonna exist in its original form plus all the overtly-saved "versions" AND all the auto-saves (default: once per hour). From the illustration, those versions are distinguished by date and time, but not renamed--as can be done using the save-as function. To find a desired "spot" in that continuum I have to search them all, instead of having useful, identifying filenames.



    Say what?



    Over the past two days, after a meeting with my attorney, I've revised my 2008 "Separate Writing" document that is a part of my will. When i initiated these recent edits, I opened the 2008 file and saved it as "Separate Writing v 2011". Pretty simple, right? I now have two "versions" of that separate writing--one with the suffix v 2008, and one with the suffix v 2011.



    Which better serves my purposes? Clearly, the latter. From the illustration in this article, there's no option to "save as" and rename a file. So instead of two clearly identified (by filename) documents, I'd have perhaps 20 or more--all with the same filename, distinguished only by date and time that provide no insight into content, or intent.



    So to me, this would be a step backwards. (Give me the ability to "save as version" AND rename that version, and i'm on board).





    If you bothered reading the entire article, you can still save as (who said this was no longer an option?), or even better use the new duplicate feature.

    The UI for versions makes it easy to find, compare and retrieve.

    You also don't get 20 files, just a one with appended changes.

    Bloody hell why am I bothering with this, go read the friggin article.

    I bet you don't even use colour coding for your folders/files, are you pray tell a newbie to Macs ?
  • Reply 33 of 72
    The more I learn about Lion the more I can't wait for it.

    As a computer programmer I believe simplicity is best.

    That is the way Apple are now proceeding with OSX.

    Yes merge some iOS into it, make it easier to use, put safety features (behind the scenes) for people not as computer literate as techies.

    I feel I am an athena to the world of computers, a techie who prefers simplicity.

    I guess that means I won't be buying any android garbage then !
  • Reply 34 of 72
    stuffestuffe Posts: 391member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by White Rabbit View Post


    If you bothered reading the entire article, you can still save as (who said this was no longer an option?), or even better use the new duplicate feature.

    The UI for versions makes it easy to find, compare and retrieve.

    You also don't get 20 files, just a one with appended changes.

    Bloody hell why am I bothering with this, go read the friggin article.

    I bet you don't even use colour coding for your folders/files, are you pray tell a newbie to Macs ?



    I said Save As was removed, and that's from actually using it, not from reading the article. I can't say I liked the tone of your post I have to say.



    EDIT: Addition - The article does not even say you can still "save as". You can:



    1) Save - This is for new documents which do not have a filename.

    2) Save Version - Once a document has a filename, this replaces the previous Save, and saves a new version under the same name

    3) Duplicate - Again, only once a document has an existing filename, you can duplicate it, which presents a fresh copy without a filename, and you can only "Save" it.



    I have no idea what your colour coding (Get it right, labelling) comments was all about, I never use them, I consider myself suitable experienced in most any computer OS. I had no idea that labelling your files was the differentiating factor in being a newbie, and a pro like yourself.



    Edit 2: Yes, I know the above is probably a bit snarky, but honestly, I think you deserve it.
  • Reply 35 of 72
    stuffestuffe Posts: 391member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lorre View Post


    Sounds interesting... So does this mean that even if I delete a file, my Mac will still "keep" it soewhere so I can recover it afterwards? Even though I have no Time Machine drive attached?



    Sounds like a really cool feature, but I wonder how this works on systems with small or nearly full hard drives. Imagine a 64GB MBA 11" for example.



    Yes, all files get snapshots (there is an option to turn it off tho) for when changes are made plus I believe a final one on deletion for the whole file should no prior snapshot exist. It should rotate and remove as appropriate to manage space, but this is an area fir improvement, as currently deleting a file does not free up the space until it's snapshot is archived via Time Machine
  • Reply 36 of 72
    irelandireland Posts: 17,574member
    Expect this to change before Golden Master.



  • Reply 37 of 72
    stuffestuffe Posts: 391member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    Expect this to change before Golden Master.




    Ireland - nothing to do with the above, more your Sig - why do you not want the zoom button and a full screen button, what is mouse tracking for, and yeah, damn straight on the Quicktime (& Facetime/iChat) front
  • Reply 38 of 72
    irelandireland Posts: 17,574member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stuffe View Post


    Ireland - nothing to do with the above, more your Sig - why do you not want the zoom button and a full screen button, what is mouse tracking for, and yeah, damn straight on the Quicktime (& Facetime/iChat) front



    Mouse-tracking, as in, how the mouse moves and behaves. The good thing is I believe they have sped it up a bit. I just don't think it's not quite "Apple-good".



    As for not wanting fullscreen in-addition-to zoom. There are far more regular users than "geeks". Most will be confused by this extra button. Even for myself I'd rather they just made zoom = maximize. And perhaps turned the + symbol on the green button into a fullscreen symbol. If users want to zoom content we can drag any corner of the window to our liking. It makes sense the fact that they just added this new dragging capability to get to the point and just kill the zoom button.



  • Reply 39 of 72
    stuffestuffe Posts: 391member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    Mouse-tracking, as in, how the mouse moves and behaves. The good thing is I believe they have sped it up a bit. I just don't think it's not quite "Apple-good".



    As for not wanting zoom and fullscreen. There are far more regular users than "geeks". It's a fact that most will be confused by this. Even for myself I'd rather they just made zoom = maximize. And perhaps turned the + symbol on the green button into a fullscreen icon.







    Hmm, at the risk of going off topic (I think this thread has died now anyway), of the apps that I always have open, there is no way I would ever want to maximise twitter/ichat/skype/ical all the time, yet their window sizes do vary. I like it the new way, so far, so long as people start to use zoom as zoom and not pseudo maximise - needs a keyboard shortcut for full screen tho!
  • Reply 40 of 72
    irelandireland Posts: 17,574member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stuffe View Post


    Hmm, at the risk of going off topic (I think this thread has died now anyway), of the apps that I always have open, there is no way I would ever want to maximise twitter/ichat/skype/ical all the time, yet their window sizes do vary. I like it the new way, so far, so long as people start to use zoom as zoom and not pseudo maximise - needs a keyboard shortcut for full screen tho!



    That's no problem. The apps that don't need it simply don't get a maximize button. My feelings on the zoom button remain unchanged.
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