The benefit that slots provide is customization specific to a customers need.
Thunderbolt peripherals would do this too and for Apple's entire lineup not just the Mac Pros. Not only that but the devices can be shared between models. If someone has laptops and Mac Pros and iMacs, they buy one peripheral to work in all of them and can resell them.
If you go PCI, you have to get the 17" MBP with a PCI slot and another special card to work and they would be very hard to sell on again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
Go to an external device and you have to count on paying for a power supply and other hardware a plug in card can do without.
You do pay for the 1kW PSU in the Mac Pro though and in fact everyone buying a Mac Pro does but won't use near the capacity. The modular approach means you just buy what you need and no more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
Why would anybody in their right mind want to use an external GPU card?
There are limits to what you can fit inside a small machine, especially a laptop. It would allow people using Fermi cards for compute to do so from a mobile workstation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
In any event going this route implies you are willing to give up 25% or more of the GPUs performance.
Not necessarily, it dropped 25% on 4Gbps and 5% on 16Gbps. TB is halfway in between so if it's linear, you're talking about a 15% drop. Plus, we're talking about 15% off one of the fastest GPUs we currently have and TB is expected to scale up from 10Gbps too. At 100Gbps, it almost comes up to PCIe 3.0 x16.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
An external solution will be very expensive relative to a built in GPU or even a plug in one.
You could buy an entry-level model computer with an IGP e.g Apple's 13" MBP and buy a $200-300 GPU from NVidia. This beats buying a $2200 MBP and you would outperform it. The GPU could even have HDMI-out so you could plug it into a HDTV. I reckon some people would love to hook up a Mini like that to a large TV in the living room to play Starcraft at 1080p and Ultra-high quality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
By definition an external GPU is another box adding to desk clutter.
I imagine it being more like a power brick that lies on the floor. I think it would sell better as a custom solution, not simply a GPU card plugged into a box but it could be more upgradeable as a standard PCI slot in a case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
The external device will require it's own power supply.
Yes, although they could design it to also power the computer so it uses one plug. Plus external displays need an extra plug anyway so one for the GPU shouldn't be too big a problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
For something like a GPU you are better off getting it right at purchase time.
You can't upgrade it though and if you are an entry-level buyer (not necessarily just for price reasons), you will have to simply do without high performance graphics for years.
An xMac would not be necessary if Apple would just price the single-CPU MacPro fairly.
Pricing of the pro is screwed up, no doubt there. I would imagine sales are very thin, with the bulk going to iMac and the Mini. Apple has in effect painted the Mac Pro into a corner.
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I did some component math and I could not find any reason why a base-spec 3.2GHz Quad Xeon can't be had for $1999 (or the 3.33GHZ Westmere for $2999).
There might be implementation details we aren't considering. It does matter though as the price is to stiff for what users want.
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The insult is that the 2.8GHz W3530 and 3.2GHz W3565 cost the same ($294) according to Intel's site, but Apple charges an extra $400 for the latter!
Well it is something you have to deal with with respect to PC manufactures. Apple does seem to be worst than most. Look at the iPads for another example, Apple charges big bucks for minor upgrades in Flash memory. Even if they have to use stacked Flash chips the delta in cost is huge.
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edit:
Whoa, I posted about this on Apple's forum and it was removed within 5 minutes. WTF?
The truth hurts, even though I acknowledge that the hardware might be different on the two Mac Pros you can't hope but to see questionable pricing. Even the Mini is screwed up in this respect, where you pay a good stiff price for 2% increase in GHz.
XMac won't settle this issue but what I do see such a platform doing is to give Apple a reasonable way to price a midrange machine. I still think a real GPU would go a long way to making a bigger than Mini machine viable.
OK, just read on another forum that the Xeon 3.2GHz W3565's price came down just last month.
Perhaps Apple will address this when they buy them at the new prices. Right.
That's right, Intel changed the prices of some Xeon cpus long after Apple released the MP. Unless Apple buys new batches of cpus, you can't expect them to lower their prices at the same time Intel does.
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Apple never lowers prices mid-revision. New prices (if at all) with the Sandy Bridge Mac Pro.
Sure. But the SB MPs will not be released before the end of the year or early next year. It would be a good gesture from Apple to "update" the MP before the summer, or at the same time they update the iMac, to offer (if not a lower price) a deserved boost in performance. Unless they bought more than 12 months worth of cpu inventory for the MP last year, they will have to buy from Intel again sooner or later. More so, there are only 3 "retail" prices de the MP: $2499/$3499/$4999, and one "retail" price for the Server: $2999, everything else is BTO options, and those can and have changed mid-revision on many models.
Like it has been suggested the high-end iMac will offer a 4C/8T 3.40GHz cpu for $1999/2199. So Apple could offer at least:
4C/8T 3.20GHz for $2499 (W3565 at $294), or $2999 for the Server
BTO: 6C/12T 3.20GHz +$400 (W3670 at $583)
BTO: 6C/12T 3.46GHz +$1000 (W3690 at $999), that's a "price cut" I'd really like to see
There are less price changes for the Xeon 5600 series, yet a speedbump on all dual-cpu models would be welcomed, dual-quad 2.53 ($3499), dual-6C 2.80 ($4999), BTO: dual-6C 3.06 (now available as a 95W part, same price as the 2.93).
But I really expect the SB MPs to be quite different beasts than the current models (enclosure and internals).
Sure. But the SB MPs will not be released before the end of the year or early next year.
They'll be updated when the chips exist. They're tracking for Q4 this year.
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It would be a good gesture from Apple to "update" the MP before the summer, or at the same time they update the iMac, to offer (if not a lower price) a deserved boost in performance.
Except they don't do that. The first Mac Pro went 518 days without an update.
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But I really expect the SB MPs to be quite different beasts than the current models (enclosure and internals).
Enclosure will be identical. And what reason would there be to change the insides? The CPU/RAM still need to be together, so the daughterboard's likely here to stay.
What confounds me is that a computer filling the gap between the Mac mini and Mac Pro would arguably be less expensive to produce than an iMac -( less customized parts to fit into the space constraints of the iMac or Mac mini.)
It would allow Apple to target a market they don't service now.
Allow consumers flexibility not now offered by Apple.
Possibly provide incentive for card manufacturers to offer more varied options that even current Mac Pro owners aren't offered do to the extremely low number of computers Apple sells that have slots.
If I remember correctly, biggest downside mentioned in past xMac threads always revolved around Apple protecting their margins on the iMacs. Even this can be disputed indefinitely.
I fully expect to see more xMac threads in the future, popping up periodically as consumers that do covet flexibility continue to dream the xMac dream.
What confounds me is that a computer filling the gap between the Mac mini and Mac Pro would arguably be less expensive to produce than an iMac -( less customized parts to fit into the space constraints of the iMac or Mac mini.)
It's not so much that I'm trying to save the money from not having a built in monitor. I just like having a choice. $1500 for an xMac in a cabinet about 2/3 thirds the size of the Mac Pro would be great. Heck, I'll even take iMac parts at that price. Just make the case easy to get into and put some jacks and slots and ports on the front. Can you imagine if car manufacturer's put the mp3 jack on the back of the radios in cars? That's how Apple seems to think.
[QUOTE=MacTac;1832427]It's not so much that I'm trying to save the money from not having a built in monitor. I just like having a choice.
[/qoute]
Exactly! I don't even care if the GPU is soldered to the motherboard, as long as it is a reasonable step above integrated graphics. Atleast for me the point is flexibility in the display and storage with a PCI Express slot coming up a distant second.
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$1500 for an xMac in a cabinet about 2/3 thirds the size of the Mac Pro would be great. Heck, I'll even take iMac parts at that price. Just make the case easy to get into and put some jacks and slots and ports on the front.
Even a case that big I would consider to be to big for today's technology.
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Can you imagine if car manufacturer's put the mp3 jack on the back of the radios in cars? That's how Apple seems to think.
Yeah Apple is all about usability except for it's hardware. Hopefully the new AIRs are a sign of thinking different at Apple. They put a lot of human factors effort into their software it is about time that hardware gets some respect at Apple.
In any event i don't want Apple producing a run of the mill desktop and calling it an XMac. Rather I want a modern approach that gives us significantly more power than the Mini. Especially GPU power. This doesn't have to be excessively huge and frankly can do away with legacy hardware such as optical drives.
Apple re-imagined the tablet so they can do the something on the desktop. Interestingly the iPad could cause a surge in desktop sales as they become that digital hub Apple talks about. One of the reasons I've taken interest in the desktop market again is that I can see an iPad with desktop being a better choice than a laptop trying to do both. I just don't think Apple has truely considered this. If they had I'm fairly certain that they would have a low cost desktop with reasonable storage capability. After all a hub implies a central repository.
They'll be updated when the chips exist. They're tracking for Q4 this year.
Depending on the models... The Xeons are divided in multiples families of products, not all will be made available at the same time, and not all will be/can be/should be used in a MP.
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Except they don't do that. The first Mac Pro went 518 days without an update.
Except they can do that. It'd not be the first time Apple does silent updates. And you forgot the 1st 8-core MP mid-revision.
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Enclosure will be identical. And what reason would there be to change the insides? The CPU/RAM still need to be together, so the daughterboard's likely here to stay.
How do you know that?
The interconnect architecture of SB Xeons is way different than Nehalem/Westmere. While the concept of daughter/mother-board may stay, it could also go or be very different. With SB Xeons, PCIe lanes are on the cpu, the much simplier chipset is connected via DMI/PCIe. That changes lots of things. IMO, it's closer to the Harpertown's interconnect architecture than to Nehalem's. Putting the cpus back on the motherboard and RAM on daugtherboards would probably allow 2x6 slots for true triple-channel performance. Connecting the PCIe lanes from the cpus to the slots would also be much easier. If they change the dimensions to make the MP rackable, they probably would need to change some of the interior design too.
With the Mac Pro now also playing the role of the XServe, Apple should redesign the MP, if they don't, they don't, but they will certainly loose more customers, if it's not easily rackable. And this would be also welcomed in audio/video installations. Removing the ODD bays and/or replacing the ODD with a slot-loading one, and rearranging the HDD bays, could be enough to ensure that the MP would be rackable (they just need to save a couple of inches). Also, change is good. While the dual-cpu MP could keep most of the features of the current model (HDD bays, PCIe slots), it would be nice for the single cpu MP to be rejuvenated. Like I said it offers very little over an iMac+TB. I really wouldn't want all MPs to be trucks forever.
Except they can do that. It'd not be the first time Apple does silent updates. And you forgot the 1st 8-core MP mid-revision.
That wasn't a revision in any way. They added a chip. Apple has even done that with their laptops. No prices changed. No existing hardware changed. No configurations changed.
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Removing the ODD bays and/or replacing the ODD with a slot-loading one
Infinitely more users would prefer the former than the latter.
FOR ALL the talk here the days of Reg joes walking off the street and buying high end Desk top MAC PRO'S are gone . Mac pro's are meant for highest end users .And they still are . The string of mini's and 3 or 4 top end
I-MAC's does te job for most small company;s
THE APPLE DESK top is dead . The mini's killed it .
Todays MBP are so powerful that they crush high end systems of 48 months ago . MY ego demandI buy more power than i'll ever need to run aperture and a few cool movies and a few games>> A 1500 MBP13" would have worked fine .
BUT noooo like most males I needed rawpower .!!So I dropped $2700 on 15" ,BP hi-res 3.2GHz 1-7 core 8 g killer machine thatI love . My 14 month old MBP will go to EBAY
APPLE MAKES ITS money on people like me who over buy to the extreme .
Their seems to be two camps debating the for and against of the MacPro here, the for's are more aligned to professional studio type engineers that most definitively appreciate and use the sheer grunt of a super computer in their everyday business where time is money and the power to get the job done is more the important factor, try for example mixing down 32 tracks in 192/24 with for or five plugins/track and Logic synths or indeed compiling a render engine of special effects on an iMac,
on the other side appear the domestic iMac users that argue that the iMac/Macbookpro can do the same job quite effectively with todays technology using thunderbolt add ons.??? I kid you not!
I appreciate that the MacPro is far to big an industrial machine for home use so is only destined for business use, but is such a machine that needs to be redeveloped to further its niche remember most people looking at Macs don't buy the cheapest they buy the best they can stretch their meager finances to regarding the figurehead as being one of the finest computers in the world and the lesser more affordable beast having come from the same stable,
With the onset of Cloud computing services, (yes! get over your disdain and get use to it thats where its going,) iMacs and Macbookpro and indeed ipads and mobile devices will all become "thin clients" and as such will no longer need to be large computing devices with bags of onboard mass storage slim and speedy will rule the day of these devices.
On the other hand creating the media and service provision will increase demand on the professional devices such as the MacPro unless of course Apple gives up on the professional market and cuts the Apple monica figurehead off, personally I don't expect SJ to do that,
What can be done with this now aging over-bloated monolith is a makeover with foresight,
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanMc
But what professional users need is a re-designed MacPro, maybe half the volume size of todays having just a motherboard with twin zeon multicore processors 32gbt of RAM slots and 8 full PCIexpress slots capacity housing upto six hotswopable 2terabt SSD cards or whatever and a full graphics card for twin monitor workstation use or extra 2 SSD slots for stackable server node use,
If Apple used such a new sleek streamlined design in their own datacentre it would be quite cost effective to re-develop the Macpro and would also bring professional services back on their cloud campus so to speak for the foreseeable future.
Such a PCIe based design can be retro fitted for any specialist requirement as needed such as Photographic studios, recording DAW, or Video editing suite, or server node, two or more units could be totem poled for expansion.
Professional service where the speed of real time productivity counts,
This would not detract from the excellent professional world use potential of the iMac et al, that in many situations is the excellent choice, but horses for courses.
But what professional users need is a re-designed MacPro, maybe half the volume size of todays having just a motherboard with twin zeon multicore processors 32gbt of RAM slots and 8 full PCIexpress slots capacity housing upto six hotswopable 2terabt SSD cards or whatever and a full graphics card for twin monitor workstation use or extra 2 SSD slots for stackable server node use,
This makes absolutly no sense.
- 8 full PCIe slots would take more than half the volume of a current MP, where do you put the cpus/RAM/ODD/power supply? Externally?
- 32gbt of RAM slots doesn't mean squat, 32GB of RAM is not that much as the current MP can support 64GB, and would handle more if Apple had offered 6 slots per cpu instead of 4.
- six 2TB SSD cards + 1 full graphics card = 7 slots, I don't know where you get 2 extra SSD slots, where do you put your pro audio interface card(s): USB/FW?, your DSP card(s): FW?
IMO, the best way, to shrink the single-cpu MP, would be to offer less PCIe slots and less/smaller storage bays. SSD is certainly a good way to go for many professional usages. But let's not be carried away with capacities of terabytes just yet, today they cost $8,000, and it will probably take 5 years before they reach a decent price (under $1,000). Thunderbolt would help in the storage area as it offers up to PCIe speed so it will handle the new 500MB/s SSD drives and some RAIDed too, and it will certainly be able to handle multiple 3TB/6TB HDDs for those who need that much storage permanently. While terabytes capacites are still where the 3.5" form factor is king, in the SSD domain everything is available in 2.5" at about the same capacities as 3.5" SSDs, so four 2.5" SSDs would take the same volume as two 3.5" HDD/SSDs. And there are also SSD blades, up to 256GB right now, but possibily 512GB before the end of the year, one could be used directly on the motherboard as the standard boot drive.
That may not seem much, but if you replace the two full size ODD bays with a single slot-loading one, you can save a lot of space.
IMO, a single tray with either: one 3.5" HDD/SSD, or two 2.5" HDD/SSD, or even four SSD blades, would take care of plenty of internal storage needs in a very small volume.
For the "lack" of PCIe slots, Thunderbolt would also help as each port candle handle up to 7 devices (up to four at full 1x PCIe speed). Most PCIe cards (except graphics cards) are 1x cards, including pro audio cards like AVID/Pro Tools, Apogee Symphony, Universal Audio UAD-2, so it really doesn't matter if those are internal or external. Thunderbolt controllers are small (15x15mm) and "inexpensive", so even multiple controllers/ports could be possible in small form factors computers.
That leaves the gpu issue. The fact is, many professional usages don't require very powerful graphics, even pro audio, let alone all server tasks that the MP has taken upon since the death of the XServe. Any basic dual-display gpu could be put on the motherboard to handle those basic tasks (and could be tied to up to 2 Thunderbolt controllers/ports). Now a couple of PCIe slots could be available for better graphics cards or else). Or an hybrid GPU/Thunderbolt card (not PCIe per se) could be offered as an option for better graphics and more Thunderbolt ports.
Taking all this into account, the power supply could also be smaller (maybe only 600W or less) and the single MP could probably be reduced to 2U (about 19" x 3.5" x 12") or even less, depending on the real/not real PCIe slots and the size/number of storage bays. But with SSD standard, the MP would still have an edge over the standard iMac, with more storage capacities, probably a better optional gpu, and more TB/PCIe ports. It would also be less weird to use in server installations.
The dual-cpu MP could stay almost the same (dual-cpu, multiple HDD bays, multiple PCIe slots), all they really need to do is make the enclosure more easily rackable. A pair of current MP occupies 12U in a rack, that's 6U per computer. You can find 3U workstations with the same expansion capacities of the MP (6 storage devices, 4/5 PCI slots), and the same performance (dual Xeon cpus).
If the Mac Pros either came with faster hardware stock for their current base price, or if the price was lowered with the stock hardware it comes with, I would of picked up an Mac Pro instead of my fully upgraded 27 inch iMac. I like my iMac, it just be nice to be able to upgrade it, mostly the video card.
The Mac Pros are nice machines, and its style is still beautiful and very professional looking, but their current price tags for the hardware it comes stock with is really high, and limits it to a certain market because of it. I remember when Powermacs G5 started at $1,500, now Mac Pros start off at $2,400.
iMacs now come standard with desktop processors and desktop hardware. They took over the lower priced Mac Pro's because they are just as fast/faster. The current top of the line iMac with a core i7 2.93ghz is just equal in performance, and in some cases, faster than the current basic stock Mac Pro with a 2.8ghz xeon.
I say that because things like iPhone and iPad really put a crimp in demand for things like laptops. I see the move to the age of the digital hub to be in full swing.
Note that I fully understand that iPhones and tablets will never replace laptops completely but fir many they already have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brucep
FOR ALL the talk here the days of Reg joes walking off the street and buying high end Desk top MAC PRO'S are gone . Mac pro's are meant for highest end users .And they still are .
Yes exactly! This is the whole point with regards to XMac demand, the Mac Pro is simply to much computer for the functionality required. The Mac Pro is excellent for those that require it's capabilities but a waste of money for those that don't.
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The string of mini's and 3 or 4 top end
I-MAC's does te job for most small company;s
Actually it doesn't as many companies wouldn't touch those models with a ten foot pole! Especially large corporations where serviceability and configurability are serious issues.
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THE APPLE DESK top is dead . The mini's killed it .
If that was the case this thread would not exist. Besides the Mini is currently way to low end. Build a Mini with a decent GPU and I might start to look at it differently, but right now the MIni simply is not the class of machine we are talking about.
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Todays MBP are so powerful that they crush high end systems of 48 months ago . MY ego demandI buy more power than i'll ever need to run aperture and a few cool movies and a few games>> A 1500 MBP13" would have worked fine .
BUT noooo like most males I needed rawpower .!!So I dropped $2700 on 15" ,BP hi-res 3.2GHz 1-7 core 8 g killer machine thatI love . My 14 month old MBP will go to EBAY
You see here is the problem, laptops simply aren't the path to ultimate desktop power. It is a given that SB based desktops will be a lot faster. Desktop hardware will always put more power at your fingertips than a laptop.
I actually see a resurgence in Desktop sales as many people realize that iPhones and iPads solve their mobile needs. Think about this as a male again, a snappy desktop machine will beat a laptop, plus you don't look goofy carrying around a laptop.
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APPLE MAKES ITS money on people like me who over buy to the extreme .
Not really as I suspect margins on even the Mini are rather stiff. What they make their money on is the up sell from the base models. IPads are a perfect example here.
Ignoring the cell capability for the moment Apple has three models of iPads that vary in one respect, that is the amount of flash memory installed. the up sell price is rather stiff for what you get, however I can't reasonably say that people don't need the storage. Plus it really looks like Apple configures the base model to encourage the upsell.
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Now get cod black op for a mac
ok
peace 9
I just wanted to point out that not everybody is of the laptop mindset. The trend over the last few years has certainly been to support the sale of laptops, but I don't see that lasting forever. Especially with the advent of the highly mobile wave of the future. Just consider the power in an iPhone 4 and the likely power in the coming iPhone 5, most users will be far better off with a powerful but reasonably priced desktop to go along with that portable device.
Gosh blinkers are for horses. I can see that few have ever owned a MacPro or if you have then probably not used it.
Firstly the MacPro is far too much computer for casual home use it is a professional machine with configuration ability for purpose and few home users would need such raw power especially in todays computers, this fact renders the current setup of the MacPro outdated,
Professional users don't need legacy drives! Professional users cost a machine for its use and potential "Return On Investment", speed, reliability and interface-ability is paramount.
Intel are adopting the next generation architecture PCI interface standard this ups the anti for new PCIe cards like Aga, Blackmagic and Apogee, and also brings the new FusionIO Flash ssd type PCIe cards with up to 5Terrabt/card, and 32mbt ram cards but all this cost is well beyond the average personal user, ie "horses for courses".
On the other hand the Macmicro does not give the user any upgradeability at all as you cant add Toshiba ssd Blades and is therefor severely limited.
Imac is a wonderful integrated desktop that coupled with future cloud computing is an ideal office and home thin client user interface, no professional user would use it as a main computer in the studio because you can't configure it for the industry standard PCIe cards that Intel are furthering to the next generation of for the future.
The Idea that a studio server or render farm would use tens of wired boxes to do the job of the Macpro is ludicrous, the Macpro is designed to house all this in one neat package avoiding all such mayhem and technical hassles that go along with such idioticy.
There are two simple requirements in separates,
1, Macmicro could be redesigned as a standalone miniPCIe expantion server for SOHO/Home use through thunderbolt.
2, MacPro can be redesigned to better serve an expanding Pro market & cloud service providers such as their new Datacentre,
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Posted by MJTEIX This makes absolutly no sense.
- 8 full PCIe slots would take more than half the volume of a current MP, where do you put the cpus/RAM/ODD/power supply? Externally?
- 32gbt of RAM slots doesn't mean squat, 32GB of RAM is not that much as the current MP can support 64GB, and would handle more if Apple had offered 6 slots per cpu instead of 4.
- six 2TB SSD cards + 1 full graphics card = 7 slots, I don't know where you get 2 extra SSD slots, where do you put your pro audio interface card(s): USB/FW?, your DSP card(s): FW?
Pro users often 19" rackmount their computers hence width(tower hight) needs to remain the same perhaps with the addition of mounting wings. the size of the power supply is twice that of standard 1K PWM PSUs so no problem with reducing size there. Sandy bridge/Ivy bridge processors can use more efficient smaller cooling heat-sink transfer systems... see Overclockers website.
therefor the hight of motherboard and 8 full size PCIe slots can easily fit in a case reduced to 4.5 unit hight, and depth reduced by 3", therefor the resultant design would be some 40% by volume smaller in size, It would only need 2 thunderbolt connectors for totompoling stacks. as thunderbolt has multi fan out to six deep connectivity level will provide for any peripheral, all other specialized purpose interface will be afforded by the specialized PCIe cards made within the industry Thunderbolt video HDMI SDI...
This would allow almost limitless professional configurability neatly maintained in the MacPro with integrated MacOS/ServerOS. would be highly cost effective solution for business, and if you can't configure a purpose within 8 PCIe slots then double your machines in tandem or get another JOB.
You could even consider a single 6core processor board as low end in the same cost effective casing for super gaming machine status.
Well theres my take on it but if Apple don't want to take advantage of that market with their perfectly positioned developed and supported Macpro, then I agree the MacPro is dead and it will be time to move on.
One other last thing Now the other major players have seen Apple doing so well in the domestic market designs it is only a matter of time before they step up to take their market share, Sony have already announced their Adoption of thundrbolt, one needs to retain all arrows to the bow in business.
Pro users often 19" rackmount their computers hence width(tower hight) needs to remain the same perhaps with the addition of mounting wings. the size of the power supply is twice that of standard 1K PWM PSUs so no problem with reducing size there. Sandy bridge/Ivy bridge processors can use more efficient smaller cooling heat-sink transfer systems... see Overclockers website.
therefor the hight of motherboard and 8 full size PCIe slots can easily fit in a case reduced to 4.5 unit hight, and depth reduced by 3", therefor the resultant design would be some 40% by volume smaller in size, It would only need 2 thunderbolt connectors for totompoling stacks. as thunderbolt has multi fan out to six deep connectivity level will provide for any peripheral, all other specialized purpose interface will be afforded by the specialized PCIe cards made within the industry Thunderbolt video HDMI SDI...
Wow! You really live in another world. A world with different laws of physics. A world without measuring tapes. A world without calculators.
Current MP: 20.1 x 8.1 x 18.7=3044in3,
Your MP: 19" x 4.5U=7.88 x (18.7-3=)15.7" = 2350in3
That's not half or even 60%, that's more than 3/4 of the current MP (77%), and it probably won't fit 8 PCIe slots anyway.
Thunderbolt doesn't "fan out" it's not a snake (you spent too much time rolling cables on stages), you can daisy-chain up to 7 devices.
Comments
The benefit that slots provide is customization specific to a customers need.
Thunderbolt peripherals would do this too and for Apple's entire lineup not just the Mac Pros. Not only that but the devices can be shared between models. If someone has laptops and Mac Pros and iMacs, they buy one peripheral to work in all of them and can resell them.
If you go PCI, you have to get the 17" MBP with a PCI slot and another special card to work and they would be very hard to sell on again.
Go to an external device and you have to count on paying for a power supply and other hardware a plug in card can do without.
You do pay for the 1kW PSU in the Mac Pro though and in fact everyone buying a Mac Pro does but won't use near the capacity. The modular approach means you just buy what you need and no more.
Why would anybody in their right mind want to use an external GPU card?
There are limits to what you can fit inside a small machine, especially a laptop. It would allow people using Fermi cards for compute to do so from a mobile workstation.
In any event going this route implies you are willing to give up 25% or more of the GPUs performance.
Not necessarily, it dropped 25% on 4Gbps and 5% on 16Gbps. TB is halfway in between so if it's linear, you're talking about a 15% drop. Plus, we're talking about 15% off one of the fastest GPUs we currently have and TB is expected to scale up from 10Gbps too. At 100Gbps, it almost comes up to PCIe 3.0 x16.
An external solution will be very expensive relative to a built in GPU or even a plug in one.
You could buy an entry-level model computer with an IGP e.g Apple's 13" MBP and buy a $200-300 GPU from NVidia. This beats buying a $2200 MBP and you would outperform it. The GPU could even have HDMI-out so you could plug it into a HDTV. I reckon some people would love to hook up a Mini like that to a large TV in the living room to play Starcraft at 1080p and Ultra-high quality.
By definition an external GPU is another box adding to desk clutter.
I imagine it being more like a power brick that lies on the floor. I think it would sell better as a custom solution, not simply a GPU card plugged into a box but it could be more upgradeable as a standard PCI slot in a case.
The external device will require it's own power supply.
Yes, although they could design it to also power the computer so it uses one plug. Plus external displays need an extra plug anyway so one for the GPU shouldn't be too big a problem.
For something like a GPU you are better off getting it right at purchase time.
You can't upgrade it though and if you are an entry-level buyer (not necessarily just for price reasons), you will have to simply do without high performance graphics for years.
I agree. And that is where the Midi Mac that people have been thinking about for over 10 years would fill in nicely.
An xMac would not be necessary if Apple would just price the single-CPU MacPro fairly.
I did some component math and I could not find any reason why a base-spec 3.2GHz Quad Xeon can't be had for $1999 (or the 3.33GHZ Westmere for $2999).
The insult is that the 2.8GHz W3530 and 3.2GHz W3565 cost the same ($294) according to Intel's site, but Apple charges an extra $400 for the latter!
http://ark.intel.com/Compare.aspx?ids=47917,39721,41313,
That is just wrong.
edit:
Whoa, I posted about this on Apple's forum and it was removed within 5 minutes. WTF?
An xMac would not be necessary if Apple would just price the single-CPU MacPro fairly.
Pricing of the pro is screwed up, no doubt there. I would imagine sales are very thin, with the bulk going to iMac and the Mini. Apple has in effect painted the Mac Pro into a corner.
I did some component math and I could not find any reason why a base-spec 3.2GHz Quad Xeon can't be had for $1999 (or the 3.33GHZ Westmere for $2999).
There might be implementation details we aren't considering. It does matter though as the price is to stiff for what users want.
The insult is that the 2.8GHz W3530 and 3.2GHz W3565 cost the same ($294) according to Intel's site, but Apple charges an extra $400 for the latter!
http://ark.intel.com/Compare.aspx?ids=47917,39721,41313,
That is just wrong.
Well it is something you have to deal with with respect to PC manufactures. Apple does seem to be worst than most. Look at the iPads for another example, Apple charges big bucks for minor upgrades in Flash memory. Even if they have to use stacked Flash chips the delta in cost is huge.
edit:
Whoa, I posted about this on Apple's forum and it was removed within 5 minutes. WTF?
The truth hurts, even though I acknowledge that the hardware might be different on the two Mac Pros you can't hope but to see questionable pricing. Even the Mini is screwed up in this respect, where you pay a good stiff price for 2% increase in GHz.
XMac won't settle this issue but what I do see such a platform doing is to give Apple a reasonable way to price a midrange machine. I still think a real GPU would go a long way to making a bigger than Mini machine viable.
Perhaps Apple will address this when they buy them at the new prices. Right.
OK, just read on another forum that the Xeon 3.2GHz W3565's price came down just last month.
Perhaps Apple will address this when they buy them at the new prices. Right.
Apple never lowers prices mid-revision. New prices (if at all) with the Sandy Bridge Mac Pro.
OK, just read on another forum that the Xeon 3.2GHz W3565's price came down just last month.
Perhaps Apple will address this when they buy them at the new prices. Right.
That's right, Intel changed the prices of some Xeon cpus long after Apple released the MP. Unless Apple buys new batches of cpus, you can't expect them to lower their prices at the same time Intel does.
Apple never lowers prices mid-revision. New prices (if at all) with the Sandy Bridge Mac Pro.
Sure. But the SB MPs will not be released before the end of the year or early next year. It would be a good gesture from Apple to "update" the MP before the summer, or at the same time they update the iMac, to offer (if not a lower price) a deserved boost in performance. Unless they bought more than 12 months worth of cpu inventory for the MP last year, they will have to buy from Intel again sooner or later. More so, there are only 3 "retail" prices de the MP: $2499/$3499/$4999, and one "retail" price for the Server: $2999, everything else is BTO options, and those can and have changed mid-revision on many models.
Like it has been suggested the high-end iMac will offer a 4C/8T 3.40GHz cpu for $1999/2199. So Apple could offer at least:
4C/8T 3.20GHz for $2499 (W3565 at $294), or $2999 for the Server
BTO: 6C/12T 3.20GHz +$400 (W3670 at $583)
BTO: 6C/12T 3.46GHz +$1000 (W3690 at $999), that's a "price cut" I'd really like to see
There are less price changes for the Xeon 5600 series, yet a speedbump on all dual-cpu models would be welcomed, dual-quad 2.53 ($3499), dual-6C 2.80 ($4999), BTO: dual-6C 3.06 (now available as a 95W part, same price as the 2.93).
But I really expect the SB MPs to be quite different beasts than the current models (enclosure and internals).
Sure. But the SB MPs will not be released before the end of the year or early next year.
They'll be updated when the chips exist. They're tracking for Q4 this year.
It would be a good gesture from Apple to "update" the MP before the summer, or at the same time they update the iMac, to offer (if not a lower price) a deserved boost in performance.
Except they don't do that. The first Mac Pro went 518 days without an update.
But I really expect the SB MPs to be quite different beasts than the current models (enclosure and internals).
Enclosure will be identical. And what reason would there be to change the insides? The CPU/RAM still need to be together, so the daughterboard's likely here to stay.
What confounds me is that a computer filling the gap between the Mac mini and Mac Pro would arguably be less expensive to produce than an iMac -( less customized parts to fit into the space constraints of the iMac or Mac mini.)
It would allow Apple to target a market they don't service now.
Allow consumers flexibility not now offered by Apple.
Possibly provide incentive for card manufacturers to offer more varied options that even current Mac Pro owners aren't offered do to the extremely low number of computers Apple sells that have slots.
If I remember correctly, biggest downside mentioned in past xMac threads always revolved around Apple protecting their margins on the iMacs. Even this can be disputed indefinitely.
I fully expect to see more xMac threads in the future, popping up periodically as consumers that do covet flexibility continue to dream the xMac dream.
xMac - The topic that won't die. Gotta love it.
What confounds me is that a computer filling the gap between the Mac mini and Mac Pro would arguably be less expensive to produce than an iMac -( less customized parts to fit into the space constraints of the iMac or Mac mini.)
It's not so much that I'm trying to save the money from not having a built in monitor. I just like having a choice. $1500 for an xMac in a cabinet about 2/3 thirds the size of the Mac Pro would be great. Heck, I'll even take iMac parts at that price. Just make the case easy to get into and put some jacks and slots and ports on the front. Can you imagine if car manufacturer's put the mp3 jack on the back of the radios in cars? That's how Apple seems to think.
[/qoute]
Exactly! I don't even care if the GPU is soldered to the motherboard, as long as it is a reasonable step above integrated graphics. Atleast for me the point is flexibility in the display and storage with a PCI Express slot coming up a distant second.
$1500 for an xMac in a cabinet about 2/3 thirds the size of the Mac Pro would be great. Heck, I'll even take iMac parts at that price. Just make the case easy to get into and put some jacks and slots and ports on the front.
Even a case that big I would consider to be to big for today's technology.
Can you imagine if car manufacturer's put the mp3 jack on the back of the radios in cars? That's how Apple seems to think.
Yeah Apple is all about usability except for it's hardware. Hopefully the new AIRs are a sign of thinking different at Apple. They put a lot of human factors effort into their software it is about time that hardware gets some respect at Apple.
In any event i don't want Apple producing a run of the mill desktop and calling it an XMac. Rather I want a modern approach that gives us significantly more power than the Mini. Especially GPU power. This doesn't have to be excessively huge and frankly can do away with legacy hardware such as optical drives.
Apple re-imagined the tablet so they can do the something on the desktop. Interestingly the iPad could cause a surge in desktop sales as they become that digital hub Apple talks about. One of the reasons I've taken interest in the desktop market again is that I can see an iPad with desktop being a better choice than a laptop trying to do both. I just don't think Apple has truely considered this. If they had I'm fairly certain that they would have a low cost desktop with reasonable storage capability. After all a hub implies a central repository.
They'll be updated when the chips exist. They're tracking for Q4 this year.
Depending on the models... The Xeons are divided in multiples families of products, not all will be made available at the same time, and not all will be/can be/should be used in a MP.
Except they don't do that. The first Mac Pro went 518 days without an update.
Except they can do that. It'd not be the first time Apple does silent updates. And you forgot the 1st 8-core MP mid-revision.
Enclosure will be identical. And what reason would there be to change the insides? The CPU/RAM still need to be together, so the daughterboard's likely here to stay.
How do you know that?
The interconnect architecture of SB Xeons is way different than Nehalem/Westmere. While the concept of daughter/mother-board may stay, it could also go or be very different. With SB Xeons, PCIe lanes are on the cpu, the much simplier chipset is connected via DMI/PCIe. That changes lots of things. IMO, it's closer to the Harpertown's interconnect architecture than to Nehalem's. Putting the cpus back on the motherboard and RAM on daugtherboards would probably allow 2x6 slots for true triple-channel performance. Connecting the PCIe lanes from the cpus to the slots would also be much easier. If they change the dimensions to make the MP rackable, they probably would need to change some of the interior design too.
With the Mac Pro now also playing the role of the XServe, Apple should redesign the MP, if they don't, they don't, but they will certainly loose more customers, if it's not easily rackable. And this would be also welcomed in audio/video installations. Removing the ODD bays and/or replacing the ODD with a slot-loading one, and rearranging the HDD bays, could be enough to ensure that the MP would be rackable (they just need to save a couple of inches). Also, change is good. While the dual-cpu MP could keep most of the features of the current model (HDD bays, PCIe slots), it would be nice for the single cpu MP to be rejuvenated. Like I said it offers very little over an iMac+TB. I really wouldn't want all MPs to be trucks forever.
Except they can do that. It'd not be the first time Apple does silent updates. And you forgot the 1st 8-core MP mid-revision.
That wasn't a revision in any way. They added a chip. Apple has even done that with their laptops. No prices changed. No existing hardware changed. No configurations changed.
Removing the ODD bays and/or replacing the ODD with a slot-loading one
Infinitely more users would prefer the former than the latter.
rearranging the HDD bays
Doubling.
I-MAC's does te job for most small company;s
THE APPLE DESK top is dead . The mini's killed it .
Todays MBP are so powerful that they crush high end systems of 48 months ago . MY ego demandI buy more power than i'll ever need to run aperture and a few cool movies and a few games>> A 1500 MBP13" would have worked fine .
BUT noooo like most males I needed rawpower .!!So I dropped $2700 on 15" ,BP hi-res 3.2GHz 1-7 core 8 g killer machine thatI love . My 14 month old MBP will go to EBAY
APPLE MAKES ITS money on people like me who over buy to the extreme .
Now get cod black op for a mac
ok
peace 9
THE APPLE DESK top is dead . The mini's killed it .
I wouldn't say THAT at all, but the days of the traditional idea of a desktop are certainly coming to a middle.
on the other side appear the domestic iMac users that argue that the iMac/Macbookpro can do the same job quite effectively with todays technology using thunderbolt add ons.??? I kid you not!
I appreciate that the MacPro is far to big an industrial machine for home use so is only destined for business use, but is such a machine that needs to be redeveloped to further its niche remember most people looking at Macs don't buy the cheapest they buy the best they can stretch their meager finances to regarding the figurehead as being one of the finest computers in the world and the lesser more affordable beast having come from the same stable,
With the onset of Cloud computing services, (yes! get over your disdain and get use to it thats where its going,) iMacs and Macbookpro and indeed ipads and mobile devices will all become "thin clients" and as such will no longer need to be large computing devices with bags of onboard mass storage slim and speedy will rule the day of these devices.
On the other hand creating the media and service provision will increase demand on the professional devices such as the MacPro unless of course Apple gives up on the professional market and cuts the Apple monica figurehead off, personally I don't expect SJ to do that,
What can be done with this now aging over-bloated monolith is a makeover with foresight,
Originally Posted by AllanMc
But what professional users need is a re-designed MacPro, maybe half the volume size of todays having just a motherboard with twin zeon multicore processors 32gbt of RAM slots and 8 full PCIexpress slots capacity housing upto six hotswopable 2terabt SSD cards or whatever and a full graphics card for twin monitor workstation use or extra 2 SSD slots for stackable server node use,
If Apple used such a new sleek streamlined design in their own datacentre it would be quite cost effective to re-develop the Macpro and would also bring professional services back on their cloud campus so to speak for the foreseeable future.
Such a PCIe based design can be retro fitted for any specialist requirement as needed such as Photographic studios, recording DAW, or Video editing suite, or server node, two or more units could be totem poled for expansion.
Professional service where the speed of real time productivity counts,
This would not detract from the excellent professional world use potential of the iMac et al, that in many situations is the excellent choice, but horses for courses.
But what professional users need is a re-designed MacPro, maybe half the volume size of todays having just a motherboard with twin zeon multicore processors 32gbt of RAM slots and 8 full PCIexpress slots capacity housing upto six hotswopable 2terabt SSD cards or whatever and a full graphics card for twin monitor workstation use or extra 2 SSD slots for stackable server node use,
This makes absolutly no sense.
- 8 full PCIe slots would take more than half the volume of a current MP, where do you put the cpus/RAM/ODD/power supply? Externally?
- 32gbt of RAM slots doesn't mean squat, 32GB of RAM is not that much as the current MP can support 64GB, and would handle more if Apple had offered 6 slots per cpu instead of 4.
- six 2TB SSD cards + 1 full graphics card = 7 slots, I don't know where you get 2 extra SSD slots, where do you put your pro audio interface card(s): USB/FW?, your DSP card(s): FW?
IMO, the best way, to shrink the single-cpu MP, would be to offer less PCIe slots and less/smaller storage bays. SSD is certainly a good way to go for many professional usages. But let's not be carried away with capacities of terabytes just yet, today they cost $8,000, and it will probably take 5 years before they reach a decent price (under $1,000). Thunderbolt would help in the storage area as it offers up to PCIe speed so it will handle the new 500MB/s SSD drives and some RAIDed too, and it will certainly be able to handle multiple 3TB/6TB HDDs for those who need that much storage permanently. While terabytes capacites are still where the 3.5" form factor is king, in the SSD domain everything is available in 2.5" at about the same capacities as 3.5" SSDs, so four 2.5" SSDs would take the same volume as two 3.5" HDD/SSDs. And there are also SSD blades, up to 256GB right now, but possibily 512GB before the end of the year, one could be used directly on the motherboard as the standard boot drive.
That may not seem much, but if you replace the two full size ODD bays with a single slot-loading one, you can save a lot of space.
IMO, a single tray with either: one 3.5" HDD/SSD, or two 2.5" HDD/SSD, or even four SSD blades, would take care of plenty of internal storage needs in a very small volume.
For the "lack" of PCIe slots, Thunderbolt would also help as each port candle handle up to 7 devices (up to four at full 1x PCIe speed). Most PCIe cards (except graphics cards) are 1x cards, including pro audio cards like AVID/Pro Tools, Apogee Symphony, Universal Audio UAD-2, so it really doesn't matter if those are internal or external. Thunderbolt controllers are small (15x15mm) and "inexpensive", so even multiple controllers/ports could be possible in small form factors computers.
That leaves the gpu issue. The fact is, many professional usages don't require very powerful graphics, even pro audio, let alone all server tasks that the MP has taken upon since the death of the XServe. Any basic dual-display gpu could be put on the motherboard to handle those basic tasks (and could be tied to up to 2 Thunderbolt controllers/ports). Now a couple of PCIe slots could be available for better graphics cards or else). Or an hybrid GPU/Thunderbolt card (not PCIe per se) could be offered as an option for better graphics and more Thunderbolt ports.
Taking all this into account, the power supply could also be smaller (maybe only 600W or less) and the single MP could probably be reduced to 2U (about 19" x 3.5" x 12") or even less, depending on the real/not real PCIe slots and the size/number of storage bays. But with SSD standard, the MP would still have an edge over the standard iMac, with more storage capacities, probably a better optional gpu, and more TB/PCIe ports. It would also be less weird to use in server installations.
The dual-cpu MP could stay almost the same (dual-cpu, multiple HDD bays, multiple PCIe slots), all they really need to do is make the enclosure more easily rackable. A pair of current MP occupies 12U in a rack, that's 6U per computer. You can find 3U workstations with the same expansion capacities of the MP (6 storage devices, 4/5 PCI slots), and the same performance (dual Xeon cpus).
The Mac Pros are nice machines, and its style is still beautiful and very professional looking, but their current price tags for the hardware it comes stock with is really high, and limits it to a certain market because of it. I remember when Powermacs G5 started at $1,500, now Mac Pros start off at $2,400.
iMacs now come standard with desktop processors and desktop hardware. They took over the lower priced Mac Pro's because they are just as fast/faster. The current top of the line iMac with a core i7 2.93ghz is just equal in performance, and in some cases, faster than the current basic stock Mac Pro with a 2.8ghz xeon.
Note that I fully understand that iPhones and tablets will never replace laptops completely but fir many they already have.
FOR ALL the talk here the days of Reg joes walking off the street and buying high end Desk top MAC PRO'S are gone . Mac pro's are meant for highest end users .And they still are .
Yes exactly! This is the whole point with regards to XMac demand, the Mac Pro is simply to much computer for the functionality required. The Mac Pro is excellent for those that require it's capabilities but a waste of money for those that don't.
The string of mini's and 3 or 4 top end
I-MAC's does te job for most small company;s
Actually it doesn't as many companies wouldn't touch those models with a ten foot pole! Especially large corporations where serviceability and configurability are serious issues.
THE APPLE DESK top is dead . The mini's killed it .
If that was the case this thread would not exist. Besides the Mini is currently way to low end. Build a Mini with a decent GPU and I might start to look at it differently, but right now the MIni simply is not the class of machine we are talking about.
Todays MBP are so powerful that they crush high end systems of 48 months ago . MY ego demandI buy more power than i'll ever need to run aperture and a few cool movies and a few games>> A 1500 MBP13" would have worked fine .
BUT noooo like most males I needed rawpower .!!So I dropped $2700 on 15" ,BP hi-res 3.2GHz 1-7 core 8 g killer machine thatI love . My 14 month old MBP will go to EBAY
You see here is the problem, laptops simply aren't the path to ultimate desktop power. It is a given that SB based desktops will be a lot faster. Desktop hardware will always put more power at your fingertips than a laptop.
I actually see a resurgence in Desktop sales as many people realize that iPhones and iPads solve their mobile needs. Think about this as a male again, a snappy desktop machine will beat a laptop, plus you don't look goofy carrying around a laptop.
APPLE MAKES ITS money on people like me who over buy to the extreme .
Not really as I suspect margins on even the Mini are rather stiff. What they make their money on is the up sell from the base models. IPads are a perfect example here.
Ignoring the cell capability for the moment Apple has three models of iPads that vary in one respect, that is the amount of flash memory installed. the up sell price is rather stiff for what you get, however I can't reasonably say that people don't need the storage. Plus it really looks like Apple configures the base model to encourage the upsell.
Now get cod black op for a mac
ok
peace 9
I just wanted to point out that not everybody is of the laptop mindset. The trend over the last few years has certainly been to support the sale of laptops, but I don't see that lasting forever. Especially with the advent of the highly mobile wave of the future. Just consider the power in an iPhone 4 and the likely power in the coming iPhone 5, most users will be far better off with a powerful but reasonably priced desktop to go along with that portable device.
Firstly the MacPro is far too much computer for casual home use it is a professional machine with configuration ability for purpose and few home users would need such raw power especially in todays computers, this fact renders the current setup of the MacPro outdated,
Professional users don't need legacy drives! Professional users cost a machine for its use and potential "Return On Investment", speed, reliability and interface-ability is paramount.
Intel are adopting the next generation architecture PCI interface standard this ups the anti for new PCIe cards like Aga, Blackmagic and Apogee, and also brings the new FusionIO Flash ssd type PCIe cards with up to 5Terrabt/card, and 32mbt ram cards but all this cost is well beyond the average personal user, ie "horses for courses".
On the other hand the Macmicro does not give the user any upgradeability at all as you cant add Toshiba ssd Blades and is therefor severely limited.
Imac is a wonderful integrated desktop that coupled with future cloud computing is an ideal office and home thin client user interface, no professional user would use it as a main computer in the studio because you can't configure it for the industry standard PCIe cards that Intel are furthering to the next generation of for the future.
The Idea that a studio server or render farm would use tens of wired boxes to do the job of the Macpro is ludicrous, the Macpro is designed to house all this in one neat package avoiding all such mayhem and technical hassles that go along with such idioticy.
There are two simple requirements in separates,
1, Macmicro could be redesigned as a standalone miniPCIe expantion server for SOHO/Home use through thunderbolt.
2, MacPro can be redesigned to better serve an expanding Pro market & cloud service providers such as their new Datacentre,
Posted by MJTEIX This makes absolutly no sense.
- 8 full PCIe slots would take more than half the volume of a current MP, where do you put the cpus/RAM/ODD/power supply? Externally?
- 32gbt of RAM slots doesn't mean squat, 32GB of RAM is not that much as the current MP can support 64GB, and would handle more if Apple had offered 6 slots per cpu instead of 4.
- six 2TB SSD cards + 1 full graphics card = 7 slots, I don't know where you get 2 extra SSD slots, where do you put your pro audio interface card(s): USB/FW?, your DSP card(s): FW?
Pro users often 19" rackmount their computers hence width(tower hight) needs to remain the same perhaps with the addition of mounting wings. the size of the power supply is twice that of standard 1K PWM PSUs so no problem with reducing size there. Sandy bridge/Ivy bridge processors can use more efficient smaller cooling heat-sink transfer systems... see Overclockers website.
therefor the hight of motherboard and 8 full size PCIe slots can easily fit in a case reduced to 4.5 unit hight, and depth reduced by 3", therefor the resultant design would be some 40% by volume smaller in size, It would only need 2 thunderbolt connectors for totompoling stacks. as thunderbolt has multi fan out to six deep connectivity level will provide for any peripheral, all other specialized purpose interface will be afforded by the specialized PCIe cards made within the industry Thunderbolt video HDMI SDI...
This would allow almost limitless professional configurability neatly maintained in the MacPro with integrated MacOS/ServerOS. would be highly cost effective solution for business, and if you can't configure a purpose within 8 PCIe slots then double your machines in tandem or get another JOB.
You could even consider a single 6core processor board as low end in the same cost effective casing for super gaming machine status.
Well theres my take on it but if Apple don't want to take advantage of that market with their perfectly positioned developed and supported Macpro, then I agree the MacPro is dead and it will be time to move on.
One other last thing Now the other major players have seen Apple doing so well in the domestic market designs it is only a matter of time before they step up to take their market share, Sony have already announced their Adoption of thundrbolt, one needs to retain all arrows to the bow in business.
Pro users often 19" rackmount their computers hence width(tower hight) needs to remain the same perhaps with the addition of mounting wings. the size of the power supply is twice that of standard 1K PWM PSUs so no problem with reducing size there. Sandy bridge/Ivy bridge processors can use more efficient smaller cooling heat-sink transfer systems... see Overclockers website.
therefor the hight of motherboard and 8 full size PCIe slots can easily fit in a case reduced to 4.5 unit hight, and depth reduced by 3", therefor the resultant design would be some 40% by volume smaller in size, It would only need 2 thunderbolt connectors for totompoling stacks. as thunderbolt has multi fan out to six deep connectivity level will provide for any peripheral, all other specialized purpose interface will be afforded by the specialized PCIe cards made within the industry Thunderbolt video HDMI SDI...
Wow! You really live in another world. A world with different laws of physics. A world without measuring tapes. A world without calculators.
Current MP: 20.1 x 8.1 x 18.7=3044in3,
Your MP: 19" x 4.5U=7.88 x (18.7-3=)15.7" = 2350in3
That's not half or even 60%, that's more than 3/4 of the current MP (77%), and it probably won't fit 8 PCIe slots anyway.
Thunderbolt doesn't "fan out" it's not a snake (you spent too much time rolling cables on stages), you can daisy-chain up to 7 devices.