I am glad that the public unions in this country are currently under attack. It's time to disband the thugs. They are leeches on society and they should be destroyed completely.
+1 It's still amazing to me how many people totally misunderstand what is really going on in Wisconsin. I actually had a friend try to tell me collective bargaining was a human right! Puhleze - and just what are unions for public employees trying to protect them from, the evil government? Wait, I thought government was supposed to be our savior, so why do we need unions to protect government workers then?
As a died-in-the-wool Disneyphile, I personally think kicking Jobs off the board would be monumentally stupid.
Jobs is behind the ongoing revamp of the Disney Stores, and pushing Disney to be a leader in new media like iTunes. He's also a Wall Street darling with an apparent midas touch. Just why would we want to lose him?
I know several grade school classroom teachers in RI with salaries of $75K-80K and most of them seriously consider themselves underpaid. IMO I think most, if not all, are way overpaid.
I have several teachers in my family and I am friends with more. Some of them are very good and worth their pay. Some are not. The problem is they all get paid the same, and there is no reward for working harder or neing better. When there is a layoff because of population change or whatever, the newest ones get axed, even if they are the most motivated and most successful. The lazy old one who hasn't updated their lesson plans since the 80's is perfectly safe.
I have no problem paying a highly succesfull math or science teacher well over 100K if they could get that or more in industry, and if they are able to achieve results with the students that other teachers can not. Education is very important to our future and we should be willing to spend money on it. However, we must demand that our investment is spent wisely and that the money goes to those who achieve results, not those the union has chosen to protect. What every teacher in Wisconson who called in sick to go protest should be reminded when they get their pinkslip is IT IS ALL ABOUT THE CHILDREN NOT THE TEACHERS!
The middle class controls MORE wealth (when adjusted for inflation) compared to what the middle class controlled 50 years ago.
The rich grew their wealth and this was not at the expense of the middle/lower class.
Let me give you an example you might understand.
Before you were getting 1/2 of a 12OZ soda.
Now you are getting 1/4 of a 64OZ soda.
Are you getting less soda?
Your entire argument is based on old fashioned right wing math. If you use new math, I am sure you will find the poor middle class families with surburban homes, multiple cars, multiple flat screen TV's, laptops smartphone and other toys are way worse off than the super rich middle class 50-60 years ago.
If you can count on anyone to totally SCREW YOU OVER in your time of need... it's the UNIONS.
They're evil.... and they're trying to destroy our country and every company they can weasel their way into. Think I'm nuts.... listened to the bastards on the audio on this link.
It's long past due for unions to become DOA. They screw you out of your job, and they screw the companies they get involved with. If you're in one.... GET A DIVORCE BEFORE THEY take away your ability to work.
On average they make twice as much money as you or I would make in a similar private sector job, and then they go off the handle if they have to pay and mere 5-10% towards their retirement and insurance. OMG.... how could anyone ask this? Look into the crap they were pulling in Wisconsin and when I say look into it, I don't mean watch the crap being put out my NBC, CBS, ABC or CNN.
I guess the encouraging thing here is that they probably own less stock than Steve Jobs does.
First off I'd have to say on my personal dislikeometer unions rank right up there with politicians -- they completely serve themselves. They're kind of an amalgam between career politicians and the mafia. That having been said I think the AFL-CIO's real problem is they're pissed Steve Jobs has more shares than they do.
If there's one thing unions hate it's when anyone threatens their influence ...
yes, those greedy teachers with their $50K salaries.
You might as well throw out "Hitler" with this kind of rhetoric. I don't think anyone will begrudge the average, hard working teacher for their salary or what they do to contribute to the well being of society.
Quote:
Funny how no one goes after principals and superintendents making over $100K (and we all know administrators do very little compared to the grunt workers).
Another great straw-man and a good start a good 'ol fashioned class warfare. "Hey, don't look at these problems here, we have these fat cats over here that are easy pickings" - really? Are we ever going to be able to move beyond the same, tired ad hominem attacks and have intelligent discussions?
I think most people who are fed up with unions for public employees are angry with are the complete inability to get rid of the teachers that do need to be gotten rid of. Just look at what is going on in Washington, DC, for example. They finally did shut down the "Rubber Rooms" in New York, but that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Here's a simple question for you - who are the teachers unions "in it" for? The students? Or the teachers? Or the real answer, the politicians they buy via huge campaign contributions?
Where are the criticisms of the Union leadership salaries? Or is it only "fair" to go after the man?
Those are the kinds of questions I'd like to see more of. Then again, it's far easier to pass off the same old tire rhetoric and paint those who disagree with you with a broad brush
Quote:
I'm sure Jobs would like everyone in America to be like the Chinese employees at Foxconn...subservient, non-threatening, intimidated, and stressed to the breaking point like most wage slaves.
Really? Based on what? I dare you to be specific and cite real references or examples instead of more fellow tin-foil-hat wearing cronies spewing like-minded crap with no basis...
Jobs should not have put himself forward for reelection given his current health and inability to add value to the boards meetings. That doesn't mean he can't be part of Pixar or Disney, simply that it might make sense to allow for someone who can be more active, even if it's a temporary proxy.
I just love the over-generalizations, as if all teachers = bad teachers. Sure, there are lots of bad seeds, but that's a truth for any industry or occupation. But LOTS of bad seeds do not make a majority, regardless of questionable groupthink.
See, here is where your inexperience with government is showing.
In business, you aren't going to have too much dead-weight because it's bad for the bottom line. If there are unproductive members of the team, that eventually gets held against someone so... they either produce or they are gone.
With no real need to be competitive, government is completely different. I'm always amazed, having come from private industry where in doing project management Salary was just as important if not the most important aspect of a project since it's by and large your greatest expense.
Not so in government - salary is often viewed as that magical pot of money that just keeps re-appearing without question each year. It's slowly changing, but for decades project management in government (state, local, federal - they are all very similar) is done without really factoring in the overhead of salary. Want to understand why government costs tend to ballon out of control? Bingo! Here's your answer.
So the same thing for schools. We are pumping in 20x per student than when I was coming up through public school, yet we have lower scores (against already lowered standards!) than ever before. Now, I don't believe it's wholly an issue of teachers, salary and a high proportion of dead-weight or bad teachers - we also have a wonderful witches-brew of PC crap like "No child left behind" and not wanting to hold kids back in order to not harm their self esteem and a total lack of desire to hold kids accountable in any way as far as discipline. Or the social will to back school administrations against idiot parents who threaten to sue at the drop of a hat. Idiotic policies such as zero tolerance are a direct reflection of the outrageous abuses of the court system and highlight an urgent need for sincere tort reform...
But to get back to the topic (ha!) at hand, when you get right down to it, the public unions are directly working against the best interests of the students and the taxpayer. That's whats so ridiculous about it! That's a huge problem, even before you start to look deeper into how the unions, who are mandatory and force the collection of dues from the members where they are, then turn around and make huge donations to the politicians who negotiate with them for their members "benefits" - ad nauseum...
I know several grade school classroom teachers in RI with salaries of $75K-80K and most of them seriously consider themselves underpaid. IMO I think most, if not all, are way overpaid.
Depends. If they are teaching Jr. Higher's I would argue they are underpaid!
Why do public employees need collective bargaining rights?
I didn't say that they did or didn't. The facts are that the current Governor of the State of Wisconsin, Scott Walker stripped most public employees of their collective bargaining rights, except for the police and fireman who negotiated an eleventh hour back-room deal. It was in all the papers
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42
Who's interests are they negotiating against?
By "They", are you referring to public employees?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocNo42
We are pumping in 20x per student than when I was coming up through public school, yet we have lower scores (against already lowered standards!) than ever before. Now, I don't believe it's wholly an issue of teachers, salary and a high proportion of dead-weight or bad teachers - we also have a wonderful witches-brew of PC crap like "No child left behind" and not wanting to hold kids back in order to not harm their self esteem and a total lack of desire to hold kids accountable in any way as far as discipline. Or the social will to back school administrations against idiot parents who threaten to sue at the drop of a hat. Idiotic policies such as zero tolerance are a direct reflection of the outrageous abuses of the court system and highlight an urgent need for sincere tort reform...
It is just breathtakingly stupid for these two groups to oppose Job's membership in the Disney board. The primary function of the board is to represent the stockholders' interests. In fact one of the biggest problems in corporate America is that too often the board looks after management's interests rather than the stockholders'.
So if you own Disney stock, you should want Disney's largest stockholder on the board because you know he's got skin in the game. And better yet, not only is Jobs the largest stockholder, but his Disney stock constitutes most of his personal wealth. So you know he's not going to take his board duties lightly. He may not be present at all the board meetings but is anyone going to assert that Jobs is not interested enough to pay adequate attention to Disney?
Comments
I am glad that the public unions in this country are currently under attack. It's time to disband the thugs. They are leeches on society and they should be destroyed completely.
+1 It's still amazing to me how many people totally misunderstand what is really going on in Wisconsin. I actually had a friend try to tell me collective bargaining was a human right! Puhleze - and just what are unions for public employees trying to protect them from, the evil government? Wait, I thought government was supposed to be our savior, so why do we need unions to protect government workers then?
Tak about f'ed up...
Well if anyone knows anything about being an unscrupulous thug, it's Steve Jobs.
Yup, the whole memo to the employees who are in Japan or have family in Japan was a total PR stunt.
Simply amazing
Jobs is behind the ongoing revamp of the Disney Stores, and pushing Disney to be a leader in new media like iTunes. He's also a Wall Street darling with an apparent midas touch. Just why would we want to lose him?
I know several grade school classroom teachers in RI with salaries of $75K-80K and most of them seriously consider themselves underpaid. IMO I think most, if not all, are way overpaid.
I have several teachers in my family and I am friends with more. Some of them are very good and worth their pay. Some are not. The problem is they all get paid the same, and there is no reward for working harder or neing better. When there is a layoff because of population change or whatever, the newest ones get axed, even if they are the most motivated and most successful. The lazy old one who hasn't updated their lesson plans since the 80's is perfectly safe.
I have no problem paying a highly succesfull math or science teacher well over 100K if they could get that or more in industry, and if they are able to achieve results with the students that other teachers can not. Education is very important to our future and we should be willing to spend money on it. However, we must demand that our investment is spent wisely and that the money goes to those who achieve results, not those the union has chosen to protect. What every teacher in Wisconson who called in sick to go protest should be reminded when they get their pinkslip is IT IS ALL ABOUT THE CHILDREN NOT THE TEACHERS!
Irrelevant.
The middle class controls MORE wealth (when adjusted for inflation) compared to what the middle class controlled 50 years ago.
The rich grew their wealth and this was not at the expense of the middle/lower class.
Let me give you an example you might understand.
Before you were getting 1/2 of a 12OZ soda.
Now you are getting 1/4 of a 64OZ soda.
Are you getting less soda?
Your entire argument is based on old fashioned right wing math. If you use new math, I am sure you will find the poor middle class families with surburban homes, multiple cars, multiple flat screen TV's, laptops smartphone and other toys are way worse off than the super rich middle class 50-60 years ago.
They're evil.... and they're trying to destroy our country and every company they can weasel their way into. Think I'm nuts.... listened to the bastards on the audio on this link.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/reve...-wealth-power/
It's long past due for unions to become DOA. They screw you out of your job, and they screw the companies they get involved with. If you're in one.... GET A DIVORCE BEFORE THEY take away your ability to work.
On average they make twice as much money as you or I would make in a similar private sector job, and then they go off the handle if they have to pay and mere 5-10% towards their retirement and insurance. OMG.... how could anyone ask this? Look into the crap they were pulling in Wisconsin and when I say look into it, I don't mean watch the crap being put out my NBC, CBS, ABC or CNN.
I guess the encouraging thing here is that they probably own less stock than Steve Jobs does.
Unions = COMMIES..... educate yourself people!
They destroy everything they touch.
Z
If there's one thing unions hate it's when anyone threatens their influence ...
yes, those greedy teachers with their $50K salaries.
You might as well throw out "Hitler" with this kind of rhetoric. I don't think anyone will begrudge the average, hard working teacher for their salary or what they do to contribute to the well being of society.
Funny how no one goes after principals and superintendents making over $100K (and we all know administrators do very little compared to the grunt workers).
Another great straw-man and a good start a good 'ol fashioned class warfare. "Hey, don't look at these problems here, we have these fat cats over here that are easy pickings" - really? Are we ever going to be able to move beyond the same, tired ad hominem attacks and have intelligent discussions?
I think most people who are fed up with unions for public employees are angry with are the complete inability to get rid of the teachers that do need to be gotten rid of. Just look at what is going on in Washington, DC, for example. They finally did shut down the "Rubber Rooms" in New York, but that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Here's a simple question for you - who are the teachers unions "in it" for? The students? Or the teachers? Or the real answer, the politicians they buy via huge campaign contributions?
Where are the criticisms of the Union leadership salaries? Or is it only "fair" to go after the man?
Those are the kinds of questions I'd like to see more of. Then again, it's far easier to pass off the same old tire rhetoric and paint those who disagree with you with a broad brush
I'm sure Jobs would like everyone in America to be like the Chinese employees at Foxconn...subservient, non-threatening, intimidated, and stressed to the breaking point like most wage slaves.
Really? Based on what? I dare you to be specific and cite real references or examples instead of more fellow tin-foil-hat wearing cronies spewing like-minded crap with no basis...
I just love the over-generalizations, as if all teachers = bad teachers. Sure, there are lots of bad seeds, but that's a truth for any industry or occupation. But LOTS of bad seeds do not make a majority, regardless of questionable groupthink.
See, here is where your inexperience with government is showing.
In business, you aren't going to have too much dead-weight because it's bad for the bottom line. If there are unproductive members of the team, that eventually gets held against someone so... they either produce or they are gone.
With no real need to be competitive, government is completely different. I'm always amazed, having come from private industry where in doing project management Salary was just as important if not the most important aspect of a project since it's by and large your greatest expense.
Not so in government - salary is often viewed as that magical pot of money that just keeps re-appearing without question each year. It's slowly changing, but for decades project management in government (state, local, federal - they are all very similar) is done without really factoring in the overhead of salary. Want to understand why government costs tend to ballon out of control? Bingo! Here's your answer.
So the same thing for schools. We are pumping in 20x per student than when I was coming up through public school, yet we have lower scores (against already lowered standards!) than ever before. Now, I don't believe it's wholly an issue of teachers, salary and a high proportion of dead-weight or bad teachers - we also have a wonderful witches-brew of PC crap like "No child left behind" and not wanting to hold kids back in order to not harm their self esteem and a total lack of desire to hold kids accountable in any way as far as discipline. Or the social will to back school administrations against idiot parents who threaten to sue at the drop of a hat. Idiotic policies such as zero tolerance are a direct reflection of the outrageous abuses of the court system and highlight an urgent need for sincere tort reform...
But to get back to the topic (ha!) at hand, when you get right down to it, the public unions are directly working against the best interests of the students and the taxpayer. That's whats so ridiculous about it! That's a huge problem, even before you start to look deeper into how the unions, who are mandatory and force the collection of dues from the members where they are, then turn around and make huge donations to the politicians who negotiate with them for their members "benefits" - ad nauseum...
"The wheels on the bus go round and round..."
The governor didn't feel that was enough and decided to strip the public employees of their collective bargaining rights.
Why do public employees need collective bargaining rights?
Who's interests are they negotiating against?
I know several grade school classroom teachers in RI with salaries of $75K-80K and most of them seriously consider themselves underpaid. IMO I think most, if not all, are way overpaid.
Depends. If they are teaching Jr. Higher's I would argue they are underpaid!
Why do public employees need collective bargaining rights?
I didn't say that they did or didn't. The facts are that the current Governor of the State of Wisconsin, Scott Walker stripped most public employees of their collective bargaining rights, except for the police and fireman who negotiated an eleventh hour back-room deal. It was in all the papers
Who's interests are they negotiating against?
By "They", are you referring to public employees?
We are pumping in 20x per student than when I was coming up through public school, yet we have lower scores (against already lowered standards!) than ever before. Now, I don't believe it's wholly an issue of teachers, salary and a high proportion of dead-weight or bad teachers - we also have a wonderful witches-brew of PC crap like "No child left behind" and not wanting to hold kids back in order to not harm their self esteem and a total lack of desire to hold kids accountable in any way as far as discipline. Or the social will to back school administrations against idiot parents who threaten to sue at the drop of a hat. Idiotic policies such as zero tolerance are a direct reflection of the outrageous abuses of the court system and highlight an urgent need for sincere tort reform...
I couldn't agree more.
So if you own Disney stock, you should want Disney's largest stockholder on the board because you know he's got skin in the game. And better yet, not only is Jobs the largest stockholder, but his Disney stock constitutes most of his personal wealth. So you know he's not going to take his board duties lightly. He may not be present at all the board meetings but is anyone going to assert that Jobs is not interested enough to pay adequate attention to Disney?