Great response and anecdote. That waitress was probably pretty miffed but the United States can be broken down into many different Strata. Whether you classify things by Economics, Region, Culture etc The fact remains that we DO as a Society place priority on certain things. The US like any country has it's Racist, Sexist, Nationalist,Classist components. It's pointless to deny it.
A Rich Black is simply not going to be offended by a Poor White( feel free to add any races you want..the end result will be the same..the poor person will be gathering the food).
America is great because those that work hard stand a chance to succeed and live very well. Those that refuse to work hard generally do not enjoy the same lifestyle. However all too often you hear these as the loudest complainers. Therefore I don't really care that the Criminal is complaining about injustice for a Thousand years. We've all faced it and we don't go shooting people.
We're moving in the wrong direction. I'm not African-American.....At 19 I was in Saudi Arabia...I wasn't there fighting for Africa America I was there as an American with my fellow Soldiers.
I'm amazed that we continue to have the same problems ad nauseam yet the REAL discussions never happen(or so it seems to me) Instead we get buffoons like Jackson and Sharpton.
I'm all for Melting Pots but when you have Mexicans dancing in the street over a Soccer game I have to ask "if Mexico is that great..why are you here?"
Ok I've gone off on a tangent but I'm tired of good people gettin screwed over by the idiotic and crazy few.
I think a more homogoneous society is evolving here in the States, as people get more edjumicated. The children of racists go to school with people of all races and grow up less racist than their parents. And their children even less. But interactivity and education are the keys. Look how we changed from 200 years ago. How about 100 years ago? 50 years ago? in 50 years I think racism will be an embarrassing memory (if it isn't already) and in 100 years we'll all wonder what all the fuss was about. IMHO
<strong>I think a more homogoneous society is evolving here in the States, as people get more edjumicated. The children of racists go to school with people of all races and grow up less racist than their parents. And their children even less. But interactivity and education are the keys. Look how we changed from 200 years ago. How about 100 years ago? 50 years ago? in 50 years I think racism will be an embarrassing memory (if it isn't already) and in 100 years we'll all wonder what all the fuss was about. IMHO</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree. Latinos are the largest Minority now and will start exerting their marketing muscle sooner rather than later. The Asian population is growing as well. 50 years from now we will indeed look much different. I do not fear this change but I think our Gov must get over "White Guilt" for this to happen.
Screams of Racism will start to die out and like always the cream will rise to the top.
I like seeing American Flags everywhere now. I like the patriotism. I don't want hear how great other countries are ...I want want America to be the best.
You know...all it takes is one person. My Best Friend is White and honestly I trust him more than my own Brothers. We've been through thick and thin and I'll be damned if I put up with any "White Devil" talk.
Idiots like the boy(can't call him a Man) that did this crime are weak and crazed. He has a WORLD of opportunities over 90% of Blacks in Africa. People are fighting to get here ...braving the ocean and rickety boats and yet I keep hearing the whining...It's disgusting.
<strong>It was never expressed that it was due to the race differences but it was so obviouse . . . she was livid for reasons that are truly trivial . . any food service worker deals with that stuff all the time
and, I can tell you, most black people have to deal with that kind of stuff all the time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So it was never expressed yet you just know that it was because the customers were black?
It couldn´t be because she was having a bad day? Had a bad headache? Just got told off by her boss and didn´t know how to handle it?
No of course not. She was white, they were black so any harm she does to these people must be because she´s white and they´re black.
Fact is, you don´t know for sure why it was. All you can do is guess. Spare me your guilty conscience. Not all white men are racist because of slavery.
It might seem that way but it was obviouse in this situation . . . it was about her having to return to the kitchen for rich black people . . . it was obviouse to me... it was obviouse to her coworkers all of whom were amazedand apologetic to eveybody . . .and there was no boss in sight because had there been she would have acted differently.
Perhaps also she was having a bad day, but my perceptions, in this case, are not a product of whatever political bias you would want me to have . . . when I say it was obviouse... trust me.
I know not all white men are racists and I'm not worried or stressed about that . . . that doesn't change this one woman from having acted the way she did . . . practically spitting at these people for nothing.
I have witnessed racism many times in my life.... sometimes more bluntly than others . . . in Portland Or, I watched a black man who was walking on the sidewalk get attacked by a bare chested gargantuan who ran out of his house and threw trash cans at him and yelled repeatedly "get out of my nieghborhood N*****!!" Was he maybe having a bad day . . . yes that too.
Did my seeing it stem from some guilty conscience? no. though it did make me sick.
Granted the motivation was obviouse in that case because the man said as much . . . but in the case I mentioned her motivation wasn't verbal but she said as much with how she acted.
Great response and anecdote...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wait a minute. Aren't you the one who just insisted that Michael Jackson can't be called a paedophile because he wasn't convicted of the crime? Fair enough but now you take pfflam's account at face value. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
[quote] Wait a minute. Aren't you the one who just insisted that Michael Jackson can't be called a paedophile because he wasn't convicted of the crime? Fair enough but now you take pfflam's account at face value. <hr></blockquote>I believe that I said more in that post then comment on what I saw.
I don't think you should get hung up on that one thing and dismiss what else I said.
By the way,if you were there, you would have seen the same thing.. . . it is not a hollow assertion and its really not important anyway... what was important in what I said was that there are racially motivated actions that still happen day to day . .
such as when my white friends were beat up by a gang of Latinos at the beach . . . one had a bottle broken on his face, another stabbed . . . that was racism!!!! . . .
...or were they just being jerks because they had a bad day????
does that example make more sense? if so, is it because it appeals to your sensitivity to the possibility of a wrong call motivated by white guilt?
or are you telling me that you have never seen racism?
I can't help but think that if so, you are either very sheltered, or perhaps, you are selecvtively or uncosciously overlooking things.
<strong>I believe that I said more in that post then comment on what I saw.
I don't think you should get hung up on that one thing and dismiss what else I said.
By the way,if you were there, you would have seen the same thing.. . . it is not a hollow assertion and its really not important anyway...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Accusing someone of racism is important. How could it not be? Listen, hmurchinson set the standard. A person doesn't need an over amped imagination to say that Michael Jackson is a paedophile. Likewise, one could easily concieve of a story like yours as being true. But you can't insist on measuring the truth of a matter by one standard (like he did) and then in the next breath discard that criterion as unimportant.
[quote]<strong>... does that example make more sense? if so, is it because it appeals to your sensitivity to the possibility of a wrong call motivated by white guilt?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure what you are saying. Appeals to my sensitivity? What does that mean?
[quote]Appeals to my sensitivity? What does that mean? <hr></blockquote>I say this because I get the sense that some people are looking for reasons to discount examples of racism that people have seen. Its as if some people are so 'sensitive' to the idea of racism being false that if they catch a whiff of it they are ready to shout down the person who mentions it as having an 'amped up' imagination.
There are definite abuses to the cry of racism, sharpton could be an example of someone who might do that often . . . but that doesn't invalidate all perceptions of its reality.
what I don't understand is your saying that I set a standard by my example.... I was merely saying what I had seen that day, (it ruined my whole day too) and that racism, both against whites and blacks does exists
So it was obvious that the waitress was a racist? Now let me say this. What made it "obvious" to you? Let me throw out an idea. Every day on the news or in the paper we hear about racism and racist activities. In our schools we are taught about racism. Not only that, we are practically taught to cry "racist' just like they used to cry "red." We see everything now as black vs. white and gay vs. not gay. This is exactly what civil rights leaders like Dr. King wanted us to get away from. But the message has been twisted by this new wave of "political correctness." Just because there was a confrontation between a white person and black people doesn't mean that she was a racist. She might have been, but it could only be "obvious" if she said something. I would see it as two people arguing. I try to be "colorblind." And this is the way we should be. We should not treat African-Americans/Blacks different because their ancestors have suffered and the man is putting them down. We should not feel bad and ashamed because we are white. We should see other humans; other people that are Americans like ourselves. I could go on and on for hours but I've said enough. And I probably didn't say it as good as I meant to.
I, for one, am a discerning adult, able to judge situations and people with an eye that is honed from years of experience.... I am not quick to yell racism but I know it when I see it. . . and it does exist often where it is not spelled out.
and what "wave" of politically correct are you talking about anyway? Seems that that whole notion got killed in the media headlights about 1992.
<strong>It might seem that way but it was obviouse in this situation . . . it was about her having to return to the kitchen for rich black people . . . it was obviouse to me... it was obviouse to her coworkers all of whom were amazedand apologetic to eveybody . . .and there was no boss in sight because had there been she would have acted differently.
Perhaps also she was having a bad day, but my perceptions, in this case, are not a product of whatever political bias you would want me to have . . . when I say it was obviouse... trust me.
I know not all white men are racists and I'm not worried or stressed about that . . . that doesn't change this one woman from having acted the way she did . . . practically spitting at these people for nothing.
I have witnessed racism many times in my life.... sometimes more bluntly than others . . . in Portland Or, I watched a black man who was walking on the sidewalk get attacked by a bare chested gargantuan who ran out of his house and threw trash cans at him and yelled repeatedly "get out of my nieghborhood N*****!!" Was he maybe having a bad day . . . yes that too.
Did my seeing it stem from some guilty conscience? no. though it did make me sick.
Granted the motivation was obviouse in that case because the man said as much . . . but in the case I mentioned her motivation wasn't verbal but she said as much with how she acted.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I´ll take your word for it
I just think people should be careful with assuming racism. It´s bad enough that we have certain organisations and "activists" calling us racist for the slightest little thing, we don´t need to start doing it ourselves. I realise I´m using the words "us" and "we" here as if "we", the white race, are a different group but let´s face it, in racism there are always two "sides".
I´ve been discriminated against myself when I first moved to Ireland, not in a very pleasant way. It is also happening to me now in Bilbao and I might add that I´m white. Being a foreigner is enough for some people. However, that doesn´t mean I go around calling every Irishman or Basque a racist as soon as they don´t do what I want or react fiercely to something I say.
Does anyone see a parallel between the mute response to black on white racism in this country mute response to arab-islamic anti-Semitism in the middle east. Two groups that need to stfu and take their lumps because they earned them?
Spaceman..you simply cannot call Michael Jackson a Pedophile because he has NOT been convicted in a US Court. What I'm saying is that I can call whoever I want a Pedo and it means nothing until they are convicted in a Court using Due Process. That is the way our Judicial system works. If we went on public opinion then there would be many more people behind bars innocent or guilty.
As for pfflams statement. I think you'd really have to be there and witness it yourself to make an accurate judgement. As a Waitress it is your Job to "Service" your customers. Ranting, Raving and using foul language is a little above and beyond the typical "Bad Day".
<strong>As for pfflams statement. I think you'd really have to be there and witness it yourself to make an accurate judgement. As a Waitress it is your Job to "Service" your customers. Ranting, Raving and using foul language is a little above and beyond the typical "Bad Day".</strong><hr></blockquote>
Granted. It still doesn´t mean her motives were necessarily racist. All I´m saying is we should be careful with these things. It may actually create more racism than we already have.
Comments
Great response and anecdote. That waitress was probably pretty miffed but the United States can be broken down into many different Strata. Whether you classify things by Economics, Region, Culture etc The fact remains that we DO as a Society place priority on certain things. The US like any country has it's Racist, Sexist, Nationalist,Classist components. It's pointless to deny it.
A Rich Black is simply not going to be offended by a Poor White( feel free to add any races you want..the end result will be the same..the poor person will be gathering the food).
America is great because those that work hard stand a chance to succeed and live very well. Those that refuse to work hard generally do not enjoy the same lifestyle. However all too often you hear these as the loudest complainers. Therefore I don't really care that the Criminal is complaining about injustice for a Thousand years. We've all faced it and we don't go shooting people.
We're moving in the wrong direction. I'm not African-American.....At 19 I was in Saudi Arabia...I wasn't there fighting for Africa America I was there as an American with my fellow Soldiers.
I'm amazed that we continue to have the same problems ad nauseam yet the REAL discussions never happen(or so it seems to me) Instead we get buffoons like Jackson and Sharpton.
I'm all for Melting Pots but when you have Mexicans dancing in the street over a Soccer game I have to ask "if Mexico is that great..why are you here?"
Ok I've gone off on a tangent but I'm tired of good people gettin screwed over by the idiotic and crazy few.
Thank you, hmurchison. It sounds better when you say it.
<strong>I think a more homogoneous society is evolving here in the States, as people get more edjumicated. The children of racists go to school with people of all races and grow up less racist than their parents. And their children even less. But interactivity and education are the keys. Look how we changed from 200 years ago. How about 100 years ago? 50 years ago? in 50 years I think racism will be an embarrassing memory (if it isn't already) and in 100 years we'll all wonder what all the fuss was about. IMHO</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree. Latinos are the largest Minority now and will start exerting their marketing muscle sooner rather than later. The Asian population is growing as well. 50 years from now we will indeed look much different. I do not fear this change but I think our Gov must get over "White Guilt" for this to happen.
Screams of Racism will start to die out and like always the cream will rise to the top.
I like seeing American Flags everywhere now. I like the patriotism. I don't want hear how great other countries are ...I want want America to be the best.
You know...all it takes is one person. My Best Friend is White and honestly I trust him more than my own Brothers. We've been through thick and thin and I'll be damned if I put up with any "White Devil" talk.
Idiots like the boy(can't call him a Man) that did this crime are weak and crazed. He has a WORLD of opportunities over 90% of Blacks in Africa. People are fighting to get here ...braving the ocean and rickety boats and yet I keep hearing the whining...It's disgusting.
<strong>It was never expressed that it was due to the race differences but it was so obviouse . . . she was livid for reasons that are truly trivial . . any food service worker deals with that stuff all the time
and, I can tell you, most black people have to deal with that kind of stuff all the time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So it was never expressed yet you just know that it was because the customers were black?
It couldn´t be because she was having a bad day? Had a bad headache? Just got told off by her boss and didn´t know how to handle it?
No of course not. She was white, they were black so any harm she does to these people must be because she´s white and they´re black.
Fact is, you don´t know for sure why it was. All you can do is guess. Spare me your guilty conscience. Not all white men are racist because of slavery.
Perhaps also she was having a bad day, but my perceptions, in this case, are not a product of whatever political bias you would want me to have . . . when I say it was obviouse... trust me.
I know not all white men are racists and I'm not worried or stressed about that . . . that doesn't change this one woman from having acted the way she did . . . practically spitting at these people for nothing.
I have witnessed racism many times in my life.... sometimes more bluntly than others . . . in Portland Or, I watched a black man who was walking on the sidewalk get attacked by a bare chested gargantuan who ran out of his house and threw trash cans at him and yelled repeatedly "get out of my nieghborhood N*****!!" Was he maybe having a bad day . . . yes that too.
Did my seeing it stem from some guilty conscience? no. though it did make me sick.
Granted the motivation was obviouse in that case because the man said as much . . . but in the case I mentioned her motivation wasn't verbal but she said as much with how she acted.
<strong>pfflam,
Great response and anecdote...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wait a minute. Aren't you the one who just insisted that Michael Jackson can't be called a paedophile because he wasn't convicted of the crime? Fair enough but now you take pfflam's account at face value. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
[ 06-20-2002: Message edited by: spaceman_spiff ]</p>
I don't think you should get hung up on that one thing and dismiss what else I said.
By the way,if you were there, you would have seen the same thing.. . . it is not a hollow assertion and its really not important anyway... what was important in what I said was that there are racially motivated actions that still happen day to day . .
such as when my white friends were beat up by a gang of Latinos at the beach . . . one had a bottle broken on his face, another stabbed . . . that was racism!!!! . . .
...or were they just being jerks because they had a bad day????
does that example make more sense? if so, is it because it appeals to your sensitivity to the possibility of a wrong call motivated by white guilt?
or are you telling me that you have never seen racism?
I can't help but think that if so, you are either very sheltered, or perhaps, you are selecvtively or uncosciously overlooking things.
<strong>I believe that I said more in that post then comment on what I saw.
I don't think you should get hung up on that one thing and dismiss what else I said.
By the way,if you were there, you would have seen the same thing.. . . it is not a hollow assertion and its really not important anyway...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Accusing someone of racism is important. How could it not be? Listen, hmurchinson set the standard. A person doesn't need an over amped imagination to say that Michael Jackson is a paedophile. Likewise, one could easily concieve of a story like yours as being true. But you can't insist on measuring the truth of a matter by one standard (like he did) and then in the next breath discard that criterion as unimportant.
[quote]<strong>... does that example make more sense? if so, is it because it appeals to your sensitivity to the possibility of a wrong call motivated by white guilt?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure what you are saying. Appeals to my sensitivity? What does that mean?
There are definite abuses to the cry of racism, sharpton could be an example of someone who might do that often . . . but that doesn't invalidate all perceptions of its reality.
what I don't understand is your saying that I set a standard by my example.... I was merely saying what I had seen that day, (it ruined my whole day too) and that racism, both against whites and blacks does exists
<strong>
what I don't understand is your saying that I set a standard by my example....</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's not what I wrote. I didn't say you set the the standard.
[ 06-21-2002: Message edited by: G4Dude ]</p>
and what "wave" of politically correct are you talking about anyway? Seems that that whole notion got killed in the media headlights about 1992.
<strong>It might seem that way but it was obviouse in this situation . . . it was about her having to return to the kitchen for rich black people . . . it was obviouse to me... it was obviouse to her coworkers all of whom were amazedand apologetic to eveybody . . .and there was no boss in sight because had there been she would have acted differently.
Perhaps also she was having a bad day, but my perceptions, in this case, are not a product of whatever political bias you would want me to have . . . when I say it was obviouse... trust me.
I know not all white men are racists and I'm not worried or stressed about that . . . that doesn't change this one woman from having acted the way she did . . . practically spitting at these people for nothing.
I have witnessed racism many times in my life.... sometimes more bluntly than others . . . in Portland Or, I watched a black man who was walking on the sidewalk get attacked by a bare chested gargantuan who ran out of his house and threw trash cans at him and yelled repeatedly "get out of my nieghborhood N*****!!" Was he maybe having a bad day . . . yes that too.
Did my seeing it stem from some guilty conscience? no. though it did make me sick.
Granted the motivation was obviouse in that case because the man said as much . . . but in the case I mentioned her motivation wasn't verbal but she said as much with how she acted.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I´ll take your word for it
I just think people should be careful with assuming racism. It´s bad enough that we have certain organisations and "activists" calling us racist for the slightest little thing, we don´t need to start doing it ourselves. I realise I´m using the words "us" and "we" here as if "we", the white race, are a different group but let´s face it, in racism there are always two "sides".
I´ve been discriminated against myself when I first moved to Ireland, not in a very pleasant way. It is also happening to me now in Bilbao and I might add that I´m white. Being a foreigner is enough for some people. However, that doesn´t mean I go around calling every Irishman or Basque a racist as soon as they don´t do what I want or react fiercely to something I say.
What do you mean?
As for pfflams statement. I think you'd really have to be there and witness it yourself to make an accurate judgement. As a Waitress it is your Job to "Service" your customers. Ranting, Raving and using foul language is a little above and beyond the typical "Bad Day".
<strong>As for pfflams statement. I think you'd really have to be there and witness it yourself to make an accurate judgement. As a Waitress it is your Job to "Service" your customers. Ranting, Raving and using foul language is a little above and beyond the typical "Bad Day".</strong><hr></blockquote>
Granted. It still doesn´t mean her motives were necessarily racist. All I´m saying is we should be careful with these things. It may actually create more racism than we already have.