[quote] Actually, our country was founded on a document that specifically excludes religious orthodoxy through arms of the state. <hr></blockquote>
Exactly and referencing "God" in the Pledge doesn't not impinge on other religions nor does it promote Orthodoxy Religion to all but the blind.
[quote] My right to be free from the tyranny of a state established religion is very clearly stated in the 1st Amendment. I'd suggest you read the document and caselaw on establishment of religion and coerced speech before you make arguments from personal beliefs - this a legal, NOT a moral issue. <hr></blockquote>
What? Tyranny from your ears? By "hearing" the word "God" or "Jesus" in school does not violate your Liberty yet the revokation of this ability imposed on others DOES violate their rights. What I'm saying is that in America everything is a double edged sword..the same rights that we all enjoy can be used in ways that vex another group. That's life.
[quote] For example: How fair is it for a Jewish child to go to a public school and sing Christmas carols about Jesus the savior? In that same light, how would you like it if your child was made to do something from another religion? <hr></blockquote>
It's not fair at all but no ones forcing that child to sing now are they? But that fact is our children ARE being forced to eradicate "God" "Jesus" and any other theological references. Thats persecution Fran!
[quote]The establishment clause mandates that the .gov cannot establish any religion. Having the pledge to the nation include a pledge to subject yourself to the Christian god is establishment of religion.
Open -> shut.
<hr></blockquote>
True..and what religion has our Govt established? Christianity? No...I can wear a Star of David in school just fine. Our Govt has not mandated any "particular" religion that you MUST adhere to yet they MUST allow us to expouse our beliefs of they become guilty of the very crime they seek to prevent. Now THAT'S open-shut.
[quote] Do you realize that by claiming oppression you are whining just as you accuse the "crackpot athiests" of whining? <hr></blockquote>
The difference is I am NOT trying to silence Atheists beliefs. Do you see that distinction. My child will and should be exposed to MANY different views and then I will let him decide what he believes in..but to shut anyone up is un American.
[quote] Is it a liberty to be free from the influences of religion set forth by the government?... I think so. <hr></blockquote>
I do too! And I'm glad our Govt hasn't crammed a particular religion down our throats. Only in America can you go from Christian to Muslim to Scientologist and not be punished. That my friend is what makes America the most powerful nation on this Earth. If Choice is supreme then you must be willing to hear and withstand differing thoughts and opinions. With some Atheists..that is unacceptable.
[quote]It's not fair at all but no ones forcing that child to sing now are they? But that fact is our children ARE being forced to eradicate "God" "Jesus" and any other theological references. Thats persecution Fran!
<hr></blockquote>
That's not true. Is the government forcing your child not to believe in "God", "Jesus", or any other theological references? No! You can teach these things ANY PLACE YOU WANT with the exception of a public school or government building.
Are they being forced to sing? Of course not. But do they have to listen to it? YES. That message is being pushed upon them whether they like it or not- they have NO CHOICE. THAT is PERSECUTION.
<strong>Really? What "Rights" have Christians taken from you?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe not anything from me but they have stripped the rights of other people. Stripped the gowns off of alter boys, stripped the skin off of "heretics", "non-believers" and "infidels". Destroyed whole civilizations just because they don't believe what they want them to believe!
Why doesn't this idiotic government state their true intensions? Why don't they just remove "Freedom of Religion" anyway and get on with ruling our lives as they always intended? That's how religions work anyway right? It's always "Mine's bigger than yours"... The American Taliban...
The most insidious thing about this stuff is that once you put "God" on anything - money, pledges, presidential oathes, speeding tickets (oh yes, it will happen)- you can't get rid of it without being branded an evil, unpatriotic, baby eating atheist. Or a whiner, which might be true if it wasn't for the fact that it has happened so many times and that post 911 we have good reason for being wary of religious fundamentalism in our government.
And then theres the "atheist conspiracy" tactic whereby anything without "God" in it is somehow, by default, pro-atheism. Was the pre-1954 pledge unpatriotic in some way?
Sorry, don't buy it. It's your right to worship however you like, but you can't make my kids stand, sit, or leave the room while you do it ritualistically in a public school.
<strong>The difference is "God" is a fairly ambiguous term. It doesn't always reflect to a person. "God" could be an inanimate object (ie "money is MY God")
</strong><hr></blockquote>
And atheists? Nice try.
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>
For some crackpot Atheist to tell me that i'm "forcing" my religion on he/she is insane.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not YOUR religion. RELIGION itself. See the difference?
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>
Religious freedom to me means the ability for ANY person to praise their creator or God without impunity. Look at what we have now. Schools will not permit the mention of God or Jesus or any religous dialect...is that not persecution???
</strong><hr></blockquote>
NO, YOU are spreading FUD. For schools to do as you say would be UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
Remembery people i'm not proselytizing Religion i'm proselytizing your RIGHTS to voice or praise anyone you like. Fundamentals.
[quote] And atheists? Nice try.<hr></blockquote>
That's just it. I don't know what Atheists stand for and I'm curious to hear how they derive their strenght and well being. However NONE of us like Fanatics and that is the crux of this issue. I have disdain for Bible Thumpers to. But I respect their rights to voice their opinion.
[quote] Not YOUR religion. RELIGION itself. See the difference? <hr></blockquote>
Your mistake in this response is the assumption that Religion is based on Theological foundations. My "Religion" could be eating steaks every Friday night. The Dictionay aslo defines Religion as
"A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."
Now...think about how many Religions are really out there.
[quote]NO, YOU are spreading FUD. For schools to do as you say would be UNCONSTITUTIONAL. <hr></blockquote>
How would they be unconstitutional? Is monolithic thinking an Constitutional right? I do not support "forcing" people to prescribe to a particular ideaology and neither does our Govt. I was in more danger from a Molester as a child than a Religous Fanatic.
[quote] On a side note, I like how Moogs and Pscates don't respond to criticism, just say things and run. Poor Sports. <hr></blockquote>
My issue is that with todays current trend. Atheists get their wish but I am prevented from giving thanks to who I want. .</strong><hr></blockquote>
Huh? Wha-what? Who is preventing you from giving thanks to whatever in the privacy of your own home or religious institution? It sure as hell not the athiests... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
[quote]<strong>Take it off the money if you want. Take it out of the Pledge but the damage to my own Religous Freedom has already been done.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How incredibly selfish of you. Your freedom of religion? How about anybody elses? Just because the majority of this country is on the Lord's side doesn't mean you get more freedoms too. I think though that you are a minority of the majority. Practicing your faith the way you see fit. And not imposing it on others. So be it.
[quote]<strong>I don't advocate forcing anyone to do anything regarding their beliefs but Christians are being persecuted.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sad to say this...but it is a long time coming. They deserve some. Been doing it to others for centuries. Well, most all religions have...just seems that Christians brag more about theirs.
However NONE of us like Fanatics and that is the crux of this issue.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So the republican and democrat who ruled the Pledge unconstitutional are fanatics? I'm sorry. I take it you haven't read the decision.
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>
Your mistake in this response is the assumption that Religion is based on Theological foundations. My "Religion" could be eating steaks every Friday night.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Once again: "And atheists?" aka people that don' t eat steaks every Friday night? WHY do you want to force God upon us?
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>
How would they be unconstitutional? Is monolithic thinking an Constitutional right? I do not support "forcing" people to prescribe to a particular ideaology and neither does our Govt. I was in more danger from a Molester as a child than a Religous Fanatic.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
What??? I replied in response to your statement that schools will take away students right to say "god." THAT is unconstitutional.
[quote] Huh? Wha-what? Who is preventing you from giving thanks to whatever in the privacy of your own home or religious institution? It sure as hell not the athiests... <hr></blockquote>
But Art..that is WHY we formed this Country. Prior to the creation of the United States the Govt told you that you HAD to be in Church every Sunday and that no other religions could usurp the Anglican Church. Sure people praised and worshipped at home but they had a wish to be able to speak publically about this and congregate with othes. Hence the creation of our Society and our policy that "It's ok to choose another religion other than Christianity". Now you're telling people that ONCE AGIAN they must quietly practice and worship their beliefs elsewhere. Doesn't that strike you as odd. I mean when has a Muslim or Buddhist or Christian or whatever really caused you any grief. When have they prevented you from taking care of yourself or your family?
[quote] How incredibly selfish of you. Your freedom of religion? How about anybody elses? Just because the majority of this country is on the Lord's side doesn't mean you get more freedoms too. I think though that you are a minority of the majority. Practicing your faith the way you see fit. And not imposing it on others. So be it. <hr></blockquote>
That is NOT selfish. I give YOU the very same rights. Your fear of Religion shouldn't impinge on mine! Atheists can pray to a Meteor for all I care. They can yell "God is a fink" I don't care...what I care about is the expression of Human Beings. How many Atheists have been killed in the US because they were Atheist?
[quote] Sad to say this...but it is a long time coming. They deserve some. Been doing it to others for centuries. Well, most all religions have...just seems that Christians brag more about theirs.
<hr></blockquote>
That's just as bad as Blacks screaming about 400 years of oppression. Every American seems to have an opinion...what I respect is their right to give it.
<strong>On a side note, I like how Moogs and Pscates don't respond to criticism, just say things and run. Poor Sports.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, that's why I'm cool.
But seriously, I haven't "responded" because no one above seemed to be saying anything to me. It's been you, groverat, hmurchison, Fran441 and a couple others going at it, debating one another's previous statements/posts.
Where do I fit into this? I said my piece (or is it peace?). You should remember from our last exchange that I get no particular thrill engaging in ongoing bickering/debating.
Just isn't my thing, really. Don't have the patience or smarts for it.
In any case, I haven't seen in any of the threads above where anyone was responding to anything I posted and "calling me out".
[quote]So the republican and democrat who ruled the Pledge unconstitutional are fanatics? I'm sorry. I take it you haven't read the decision. <hr></blockquote>
Is that what you surmise from my post? No..I mean that too much of anything can a pain. I don't want to hear Bible Thumping all day either. I want to hear different ideas...different thoughts. I don't want to assimilate to some monolithic standard.
[quote] Once again: "And atheists?" aka people that don' t eat steaks every Friday night? WHY do you want to force God upon us? <hr></blockquote>
You haven't had anything forced on you. You've heard an idea or opinion that differs from your own and have rebuked it. Nothing wrong with that but it is wrong to attempt to silence these "differing" individuals....ahhhh I LIKE the sound of that...."INDIVIDUALS".
We can't say the Pledge of Allegience anymore. But, by God, we can cram every other idea, lifestyle or agenda down the throats and minds of every second grader in the country...all in the name of "free speech" of course.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pscates:
[QB]
There's going to come a time when your average fourth grader isn't even aware of the pledge of allegience and how it goes, the tune of the national anthem, who George Washington was, etc.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Pscates, there is NOTHING unconstitutional about the National Anthem or George Washington. You are spreading FUD and should stop it.
I do agree though that someday kids may not know George Washington. It's sad, and a result of the same administration that changed the pledge- Eisenhower's. Because we were racing Russia in technology, the US established a math and science initiative that pushed funding for those subjects WELL ABOVE those for the arts, history, and humanities. You can still see the results if you were an accellerated math and science student in high school, like I was. What needs to be done is MORE FUNDING for those areas. We are producing the best technology yet are forgetting about our CULTURE. Sorry about getting off-topic.
Quote:
Originally posted by pscates:
<strong>
BUT, they'll know that some daddies have boyfriends, that revisionist history makes them feel better about themselves and they'll become quite the experts at choosing a favorite brand of condom, just in time for the junior high homecoming dance.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Are you implying that there is something WRONG about those ideas? By saying "choosing a favorite brand of condums," I assume you mean "learning how to use condums." Back to the original question.
[/QB]
{Disclaimer: I'm just commenting on what you said. It's a vital part of discussion, not a personal attack. Clear?}
The founding fathers didnot have the word 'god' on money and this was resisted for many many years with strong reasons.
It is a remnant from the us vs them against the 'godless' communists and it is high time that all official references to that emptiest of all words 'god' were removed from the secular institutions of government.
Just to note, the word 'god' is empty NOT because I am or am not an athiest... simply because it cannot mean any real definable and mutually understood concept unless it is defined specifically in the utterance or through the ritualized context. . . it is as meaningful for you as it is meaningful to me . . . but then again maybe when I talk about 'god' I mean something entirely different than you do . . . perhaps even, my idea of god is so different that you would say that it is athiesm... or perhaps you would call me a satanist . . .or a pagan . . . or a christian . . the concept is without measure and meaning unless it is specified . . and since in this concept it cannot be specified without taking on distinct religious doctrines then it should be removed from its place in any official statements.
If you believe in god then ypou should want it removed... if you don't believe in god then you should want it removed.
and me? I am a god loving athiest . . . a non-believing lover of the divine <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
And no, I don't care if someone's gay. Some of my best frie...ah, screw it. It's nobody's business who my friend are and what they do. Let's just say that if you try and paint me as anti-gay or whatever, you'd be WAY off base.
And I hope people are using condoms. Responsible people, old enough to be having sex in the first place.
Just think there's a time and place for everything, you know?
Here's a novel thought: why can't I, as someone of a fairly conservative, traditional mindset, simply think and feel what I choose without having to explain or justify it to anyone, especially a bunch of anonymous yahoo's on a Mac message board.
Don't get me wrong...I LIKE the anonymous yahoos here.
But I don't owe any of them anything I don't feel like giving.
Comments
Thoth
PS: One of these days, I'll tell you all what I do for a living. I'm not just a "regular" lawyer. But I'll wait til this all calms down a bit.
[ 06-27-2002: Message edited by: Thoth2 ]</p>
Exactly and referencing "God" in the Pledge doesn't not impinge on other religions nor does it promote Orthodoxy Religion to all but the blind.
[quote] My right to be free from the tyranny of a state established religion is very clearly stated in the 1st Amendment. I'd suggest you read the document and caselaw on establishment of religion and coerced speech before you make arguments from personal beliefs - this a legal, NOT a moral issue. <hr></blockquote>
What? Tyranny from your ears? By "hearing" the word "God" or "Jesus" in school does not violate your Liberty yet the revokation of this ability imposed on others DOES violate their rights. What I'm saying is that in America everything is a double edged sword..the same rights that we all enjoy can be used in ways that vex another group. That's life.
[quote] For example: How fair is it for a Jewish child to go to a public school and sing Christmas carols about Jesus the savior? In that same light, how would you like it if your child was made to do something from another religion? <hr></blockquote>
It's not fair at all but no ones forcing that child to sing now are they? But that fact is our children ARE being forced to eradicate "God" "Jesus" and any other theological references. Thats persecution Fran!
[quote]The establishment clause mandates that the .gov cannot establish any religion. Having the pledge to the nation include a pledge to subject yourself to the Christian god is establishment of religion.
Open -> shut.
<hr></blockquote>
True..and what religion has our Govt established? Christianity? No...I can wear a Star of David in school just fine. Our Govt has not mandated any "particular" religion that you MUST adhere to yet they MUST allow us to expouse our beliefs of they become guilty of the very crime they seek to prevent. Now THAT'S open-shut.
[quote] Do you realize that by claiming oppression you are whining just as you accuse the "crackpot athiests" of whining? <hr></blockquote>
The difference is I am NOT trying to silence Atheists beliefs. Do you see that distinction. My child will and should be exposed to MANY different views and then I will let him decide what he believes in..but to shut anyone up is un American.
[quote] Is it a liberty to be free from the influences of religion set forth by the government?... I think so. <hr></blockquote>
I do too! And I'm glad our Govt hasn't crammed a particular religion down our throats. Only in America can you go from Christian to Muslim to Scientologist and not be punished. That my friend is what makes America the most powerful nation on this Earth. If Choice is supreme then you must be willing to hear and withstand differing thoughts and opinions. With some Atheists..that is unacceptable.
<hr></blockquote>
That's not true. Is the government forcing your child not to believe in "God", "Jesus", or any other theological references? No! You can teach these things ANY PLACE YOU WANT with the exception of a public school or government building.
Are they being forced to sing? Of course not. But do they have to listen to it? YES. That message is being pushed upon them whether they like it or not- they have NO CHOICE. THAT is PERSECUTION.
<strong>Really? What "Rights" have Christians taken from you?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe not anything from me but they have stripped the rights of other people. Stripped the gowns off of alter boys, stripped the skin off of "heretics", "non-believers" and "infidels". Destroyed whole civilizations just because they don't believe what they want them to believe!
Why doesn't this idiotic government state their true intensions? Why don't they just remove "Freedom of Religion" anyway and get on with ruling our lives as they always intended? That's how religions work anyway right? It's always "Mine's bigger than yours"... The American Taliban...
And then theres the "atheist conspiracy" tactic whereby anything without "God" in it is somehow, by default, pro-atheism. Was the pre-1954 pledge unpatriotic in some way?
Sorry, don't buy it. It's your right to worship however you like, but you can't make my kids stand, sit, or leave the room while you do it ritualistically in a public school.
----
I'm NORDSTROdamus, not that other guy.
My issue is that with todays current trend. Atheists get their wish but I am prevented from giving thanks to who I want.
Take it off the money if you want. Take it out of the Pledge but the damage to my own Religous Freedom has already been done.
I don't advocate forcing anyone to do anything regarding their beliefs but Christians are being persecuted.
<strong>The difference is "God" is a fairly ambiguous term. It doesn't always reflect to a person. "God" could be an inanimate object (ie "money is MY God")
</strong><hr></blockquote>
And atheists? Nice try.
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>
For some crackpot Atheist to tell me that i'm "forcing" my religion on he/she is insane.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not YOUR religion. RELIGION itself. See the difference?
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>
Religious freedom to me means the ability for ANY person to praise their creator or God without impunity. Look at what we have now. Schools will not permit the mention of God or Jesus or any religous dialect...is that not persecution???
</strong><hr></blockquote>
NO, YOU are spreading FUD. For schools to do as you say would be UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
<strong>
Take it off the money if you want. Take it out of the Pledge but the damage to my own Religous Freedom has already been done.
I don't advocate forcing anyone to do anything regarding their beliefs but Christians are being persecuted.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You have no proof regarding that statement and yesterday's decision. There simply is no connection.
[quote] And atheists? Nice try.<hr></blockquote>
That's just it. I don't know what Atheists stand for and I'm curious to hear how they derive their strenght and well being. However NONE of us like Fanatics and that is the crux of this issue. I have disdain for Bible Thumpers to. But I respect their rights to voice their opinion.
[quote] Not YOUR religion. RELIGION itself. See the difference? <hr></blockquote>
Your mistake in this response is the assumption that Religion is based on Theological foundations. My "Religion" could be eating steaks every Friday night. The Dictionay aslo defines Religion as
"A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."
Now...think about how many Religions are really out there.
[quote]NO, YOU are spreading FUD. For schools to do as you say would be UNCONSTITUTIONAL. <hr></blockquote>
How would they be unconstitutional? Is monolithic thinking an Constitutional right? I do not support "forcing" people to prescribe to a particular ideaology and neither does our Govt. I was in more danger from a Molester as a child than a Religous Fanatic.
[quote] On a side note, I like how Moogs and Pscates don't respond to criticism, just say things and run. Poor Sports. <hr></blockquote>
Ahhh they're just not as stubbon as I am.
<strong>That's fine with me Nostradamus.
My issue is that with todays current trend. Atheists get their wish but I am prevented from giving thanks to who I want. .</strong><hr></blockquote>
Huh? Wha-what? Who is preventing you from giving thanks to whatever in the privacy of your own home or religious institution? It sure as hell not the athiests... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
[quote]<strong>Take it off the money if you want. Take it out of the Pledge but the damage to my own Religous Freedom has already been done.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How incredibly selfish of you. Your freedom of religion? How about anybody elses? Just because the majority of this country is on the Lord's side doesn't mean you get more freedoms too. I think though that you are a minority of the majority. Practicing your faith the way you see fit. And not imposing it on others. So be it.
[quote]<strong>I don't advocate forcing anyone to do anything regarding their beliefs but Christians are being persecuted.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sad to say this...but it is a long time coming. They deserve some. Been doing it to others for centuries. Well, most all religions have...just seems that Christians brag more about theirs.
<strong>
However NONE of us like Fanatics and that is the crux of this issue.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So the republican and democrat who ruled the Pledge unconstitutional are fanatics? I'm sorry. I take it you haven't read the decision.
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>
Your mistake in this response is the assumption that Religion is based on Theological foundations. My "Religion" could be eating steaks every Friday night.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Once again: "And atheists?" aka people that don' t eat steaks every Friday night? WHY do you want to force God upon us?
[quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong>
How would they be unconstitutional? Is monolithic thinking an Constitutional right? I do not support "forcing" people to prescribe to a particular ideaology and neither does our Govt. I was in more danger from a Molester as a child than a Religous Fanatic.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
What??? I replied in response to your statement that schools will take away students right to say "god." THAT is unconstitutional.
But Art..that is WHY we formed this Country. Prior to the creation of the United States the Govt told you that you HAD to be in Church every Sunday and that no other religions could usurp the Anglican Church. Sure people praised and worshipped at home but they had a wish to be able to speak publically about this and congregate with othes. Hence the creation of our Society and our policy that "It's ok to choose another religion other than Christianity". Now you're telling people that ONCE AGIAN they must quietly practice and worship their beliefs elsewhere. Doesn't that strike you as odd. I mean when has a Muslim or Buddhist or Christian or whatever really caused you any grief. When have they prevented you from taking care of yourself or your family?
[quote] How incredibly selfish of you. Your freedom of religion? How about anybody elses? Just because the majority of this country is on the Lord's side doesn't mean you get more freedoms too. I think though that you are a minority of the majority. Practicing your faith the way you see fit. And not imposing it on others. So be it. <hr></blockquote>
That is NOT selfish. I give YOU the very same rights. Your fear of Religion shouldn't impinge on mine! Atheists can pray to a Meteor for all I care. They can yell "God is a fink" I don't care...what I care about is the expression of Human Beings. How many Atheists have been killed in the US because they were Atheist?
[quote] Sad to say this...but it is a long time coming. They deserve some. Been doing it to others for centuries. Well, most all religions have...just seems that Christians brag more about theirs.
<hr></blockquote>
That's just as bad as Blacks screaming about 400 years of oppression. Every American seems to have an opinion...what I respect is their right to give it.
<strong>On a side note, I like how Moogs and Pscates don't respond to criticism, just say things and run. Poor Sports.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, that's why I'm cool.
But seriously, I haven't "responded" because no one above seemed to be saying anything to me. It's been you, groverat, hmurchison, Fran441 and a couple others going at it, debating one another's previous statements/posts.
Where do I fit into this? I said my piece (or is it peace?). You should remember from our last exchange that I get no particular thrill engaging in ongoing bickering/debating.
Just isn't my thing, really. Don't have the patience or smarts for it.
In any case, I haven't seen in any of the threads above where anyone was responding to anything I posted and "calling me out".
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Is that what you surmise from my post? No..I mean that too much of anything can a pain. I don't want to hear Bible Thumping all day either. I want to hear different ideas...different thoughts. I don't want to assimilate to some monolithic standard.
[quote] Once again: "And atheists?" aka people that don' t eat steaks every Friday night? WHY do you want to force God upon us? <hr></blockquote>
You haven't had anything forced on you. You've heard an idea or opinion that differs from your own and have rebuked it. Nothing wrong with that but it is wrong to attempt to silence these "differing" individuals....ahhhh I LIKE the sound of that...."INDIVIDUALS".
<strong>
We can't say the Pledge of Allegience anymore. But, by God, we can cram every other idea, lifestyle or agenda down the throats and minds of every second grader in the country...all in the name of "free speech" of course.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pscates:
[QB]
There's going to come a time when your average fourth grader isn't even aware of the pledge of allegience and how it goes, the tune of the national anthem, who George Washington was, etc.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Pscates, there is NOTHING unconstitutional about the National Anthem or George Washington. You are spreading FUD and should stop it.
I do agree though that someday kids may not know George Washington. It's sad, and a result of the same administration that changed the pledge- Eisenhower's. Because we were racing Russia in technology, the US established a math and science initiative that pushed funding for those subjects WELL ABOVE those for the arts, history, and humanities. You can still see the results if you were an accellerated math and science student in high school, like I was. What needs to be done is MORE FUNDING for those areas. We are producing the best technology yet are forgetting about our CULTURE. Sorry about getting off-topic.
Originally posted by pscates:
<strong>
BUT, they'll know that some daddies have boyfriends, that revisionist history makes them feel better about themselves and they'll become quite the experts at choosing a favorite brand of condom, just in time for the junior high homecoming dance.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Are you implying that there is something WRONG about those ideas? By saying "choosing a favorite brand of condums," I assume you mean "learning how to use condums." Back to the original question.
[/QB]
{Disclaimer: I'm just commenting on what you said. It's a vital part of discussion, not a personal attack. Clear?}
It is a remnant from the us vs them against the 'godless' communists and it is high time that all official references to that emptiest of all words 'god' were removed from the secular institutions of government.
Just to note, the word 'god' is empty NOT because I am or am not an athiest... simply because it cannot mean any real definable and mutually understood concept unless it is defined specifically in the utterance or through the ritualized context. . . it is as meaningful for you as it is meaningful to me . . . but then again maybe when I talk about 'god' I mean something entirely different than you do . . . perhaps even, my idea of god is so different that you would say that it is athiesm... or perhaps you would call me a satanist . . .or a pagan . . . or a christian . . the concept is without measure and meaning unless it is specified . . and since in this concept it cannot be specified without taking on distinct religious doctrines then it should be removed from its place in any official statements.
If you believe in god then ypou should want it removed... if you don't believe in god then you should want it removed.
and me? I am a god loving athiest . . . a non-believing lover of the divine
[ 06-27-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
And no, I don't care if someone's gay. Some of my best frie...ah, screw it. It's nobody's business who my friend are and what they do. Let's just say that if you try and paint me as anti-gay or whatever, you'd be WAY off base.
And I hope people are using condoms. Responsible people, old enough to be having sex in the first place.
Just think there's a time and place for everything, you know?
Here's a novel thought: why can't I, as someone of a fairly conservative, traditional mindset, simply think and feel what I choose without having to explain or justify it to anyone, especially a bunch of anonymous yahoo's on a Mac message board.
Don't get me wrong...I LIKE the anonymous yahoos here.
But I don't owe any of them anything I don't feel like giving.
Feel like Ann Coulter last night on MSNBC.