The app is there because it has been recently opened. The whole point of FAS is to quickly restart an app that you were recently using. How is the system supposed to know when or if you are going to return to a recently open app?
Apps are removed from their frozen state if the system begins to run out of memory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon
It's effing ugly, whether the apps are "running" or not. It's lazy programming on Apple's part. If the app isn't doing anything, Apple should automatically remove it from the list of apps.
No. iOS does not do multitasking. I multitask on my Droid a lot. It's good to preserve clear definitions for terms.
Well, then you don't know what you're talking about. The Android multi-tasking system is very similar to iOS and neither qualify as "true multi-tasking" in the sense of a desktop computer. In the real world and to normal folks, they are both still "multi-tasking" however.
I'm guessing you are one of those young, male, Android fans that I referred to earlier who can't see the forest for the trees.
The apps in the list are suspended or running depending on their background task functionality.
Skype = running
Internet Radio = running
Apple apps = running
Other apps are suspended and open to the last used screen not a default new launch state.
Also Facebook is running for notifications even when it is not in the list.
I know you know that.
This isn?t hard. Just because it?s in FAS it does not mean it?s running in the background. ONLY APPS THAT HAVE THE BACKGROUNDING APIS ADDED ARE EVER RUNNING IN THE BACKGROUND.
Removing an app from FAS will kill its process(es) if it?s running in the background, but being in FAS doesn?t mean it?s running in the background. This was explained well a year ago so why people still think FAS is a list of running apps should not be happening.
Again, I encourage you people to do a little test. Start Skype, start Pandora, start iPod or whatever. Now check FAS to see the list of the last opened apps. Now power cycle your device. Now go back into FAS. ALL THOSE APPS WILL BE IN THERE THE WAY THEY WERE BEFORE YOU TURNED IT OFF YET THOSE APPS WILL NOT RUNNING. Can you guess why?
Obviously they do not own every possible combination of flicking gesture. Nowhere in iOS do you flick apps or pages off of the screen to erase them or move them somewhere else.
They come up with new flicking gestures for new functions that iOS did not have before. They don't introduce flicking gestures that break or conflict with previous interface guidelines. This is especially crucial because developers are following Apple's interface guidelines in the functionality of their apps.
Flicking left, right, up, down are certainly supported gestures by Apple. Yes, I agree that they don't currently use these gestures for app management. That's the point. I think they should. Would it introduce something new? Yes, of course. Would it mean that users would have to re-learn how to manage apps? Probably. Personally, I think if a user is smart enough to understand that they're managing background apps (or fast-switching-apps), then they're smart enough to figure out a new interface. The ones that would get confused by a new interface are the ones that don't check on their background apps today.
As to "interface guidelines", Apple breaks them whenever it suits them. Ever since they tossed the Human Interface Guidelines handbook 10 or 12 years ago, they do whatever they damn well want when they want. Developers follow Apple's trends or they get left behind. And personally, I don't see how a system wide interface gesture would affect any application at all. That's an iOS function. An app just needs to know when it's switched in and out. Not what gesture is used to perform that task.
... but being in FAS doesn?t mean it?s running in the background. This was explained well a year ago so why people still think FAS is a list of running apps should not be happening.
I think this is the point of this thread. If it's not "running", it shouldn't be listed with those that are. This is about the human interface. It's clutter. Get rid of it if its not actively doing something.
The fact you can't tell what's going on in the windows is exactly why I stopped using the expose add-on I found in cydia. I used it for about a week before I went back to the normal app switching tray.
Over all point being I see no reason for Apple to break its interface rules for the webOS management system. Apple will improve its management system within how iOS current functions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon
As to "interface guidelines", Apple breaks them whenever it suits them. Ever since they tossed the Human Interface Guidelines handbook 10 or 12 years ago, they do whatever they damn well want when they want. Developers follow Apple's trends or they get left behind. And personally, I don't see how a system wide interface gesture would affect any application at all. That's an iOS function. An app just needs to know when it's switched in and out. Not what gesture is used to perform that task.
How is it clutter if its in a separate tray that you have to purposefully open? If you don't like the FAS tray you do not have to use it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon
I think this is the point of this thread. If it's not "running", it shouldn't be listed with those that are. This is about the human interface. It's clutter. Get rid of it if its not actively doing something.
Again, I encourage you people to do a little test. Start Skype, start Pandora, start iPod or whatever. Now check FAS to see the list of the last opened apps. Now power cycle your device. Now go back into FAS. ALL THOSE APPS WILL BE IN THERE THE WAY THEY WERE BEFORE YOU TURNED IT OFF YET THOSE APPS WILL NOT RUNNING. Can you guess why?
They are still in there because when you restart your device the apps that have suspended states registered with the OS are put back in the list. That may be another way of thinking about the same thing but it is not that they were left in the list persistent over the restart, they were put back in the list after the restart. Some will be in various states not all are suspended. For example if Skype is in the list it can receive calls, so it definitely had to start back up after the power recycle.
In all fairness, the multi-tasking and the app switching are integrated together both in the current implementation and in this one.
I'm not sure there is any good reason (unless one is an Android fan and under the age of 15 or so), to keep harping on what 'true" multi-tasking is (versus app switching), or which of the various implementations of multi-tasking on mobile OS's is "really" multi-tasking. Can't we just agree that multi-tasking is just using more than one program at a time and that all the various implementations we see are "multi-tasking" in that sense?
Personally, the only thing I like about this implementation is that it leaves the "left-swipe from the home screen" open for other uses.
If this is in fact an early discarded multi-tasking implementation, I would guess the reason it didn't make the cut was that the little "windows" onto the apps are mostly blank and mostly don't give you a good idea of what program they are associated with or what will happen when you delete them. The current system leaves no doubt at all as to what's going on. You see a list of running apps, and you can delete them.
My biggest wish is for them to implement the four/five finger multi-tasking gestures, at least for the iPad. Double-clicking the home button is problematic and fails a lot.
I don't see any good reason why they shouldn't implement them like, yesterday.
Oh yea! Try using a chat messaging app like Yahoo Messenger and get frustrated with the countless pop up messages while using another app. Truth is that push notifications without real multitasking is a lame attempt by Apple.
I think this is the point of this thread. If it's not "running", it shouldn't be listed with those that are. This is about the human interface. It's clutter. Get rid of it if its not actively doing something.
It?s a FAST App Switcher. The word Fast is key. Another term for it is Recent Items. As stated, I don?t use FAS because I don?t think it?s faster, but I also don?t use the Recent Items lists throughout Mac OS.
It also a secondary function of removing apps from that list and if they are running it will kill their processes but this is not why FAS exists. You have misinterpreted what it does and what it represents.
They are still in there because when you restart your device the apps that have suspended states registered with the OS are put back in the list. That may be another way of thinking about the same thing but it is not that they were left in the list persistent over the restart, they were put back in the list after the restart. Some will be in various states not all are suspended. For example if Skype is in the list it can receive calls, so it definitely had to start back up after the power recycle.
The apps in the list are suspended or running depending on their background task functionality.
Skype = running
Internet Radio = running
Apple apps = running
Other apps are suspended and open to the last used screen not a default new launch state.
Also Facebook is running for notifications even when it is not in the list.
I know you know that.
Just so you know, Skype is not open. When you close Skype, it tells iOS to listen in on a port for incoming "calls", when iOS gets an incoming message, it then launches Skype, which then does it's thing. Even when you close Skype from the tray, iOS will be listening to incoming messages.
You are right about the suspending (in most cases) unless it's assigned to do something: The App is allowed to finish that task then suspend itself or if the task takes too long or the app doesn't suspend itself, iOS will suspend it for it.
However, you are wrong about Facebook. It is not running in the background for notifications. It uses the iOS push messaging framework, which listens for incoming push notifications. When iOS hears a message coming in, it receives small bits of info about what app it belongs to, a short message, and what to do when the user clicks "view". iOS then displays it on the screen (and updates the app badge and/or plays a noise). When you click "view" it launches Facebook and then Facebook has to check manually to see the update (since iOS was in control of the message, not the actual FB app). Push notifications are never triggered by the app because the app is not running.
There are other ways to multitask without the app actually running, even though it seems like the app is running. Like I said before, that is the point. In most cases, apps do not need to fully run in the background. Take a look at the multitasking APIs built into iOS and you'll understand it more.
Come on! It?s been a year since it?s been introduced. You guys should know that FAS is not a list of running apps.
And personally, I don't find anything fast about "fast app switching". Far too many clicks, swipes and taps. Perhaps I'm not using apps that show this capability to it's fullest potential.
How is it clutter if its in a separate tray that you have to purposefully open? If you don't like the FAS tray you do not have to use it.
I love that ?true mulitasking? is using no intelligent controls to manage apps.
Take the AnandTech review of PlayBook. They desperately want to find a tablet that can compete with the iPad yet they had this to say:
Quote:
Despite the PlayBook having a 1GB of LP-DDR2 memory on-board, this thing can run out of memory quickly - particularly when multitasking with BlackBerry Bridge apps. If you've got a web page loaded in the Bridge Browser, you'll only be able to open a maximum of three other Bridge apps before you run out of memory.
Something is going on with those frozen apps because any time I have a problem with an app not starting up properly or freezing up, all I have to do is go into the multitasking UI and kill the apps. After that, whatever app was giving me a problem works fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
The app is there because it has been recently opened. The whole point of FAS is to quickly restart an app that you were recently using. How is the system supposed to know when or if you are going to return to a recently open app?
Apps are removed from their frozen state if the system begins to run out of memory.
... or if you "close" them in the FAS bar.
If there is an inconsistency in the frozen state, causing them to not restart properly, removing the app from the FAS list, thus removing its state information, can often allow it to restart properly, if it's having trouble. It's part of the illusion that the apps are still running that when the state information is discarded, the app appears to "restart" rather than "resume". Sometimes you may notice this with an app that you didn't "close", which is an indication that the system silently discarded the state information because it was running out of memory.
Over all point being I see no reason for Apple to break its interface rules for the webOS management system. Apple will improve its management system within how iOS current functions.
And will probably continue with an inferior system.
And again, to "break" the interface rules, one must have rules that mean something. They only mean something to Apple for as long as they want them to mean something. If they think they have something better, they will quite willingly break the old ones.
I have read the programmer reference where it gives examples and details on how to save your app's state and this what I understand from that documentation.
You are over simplifying the meaning of being in the list and what is background activity. There are a few different scenarios.
Comments
I think it's more intuitive. I think the current method for terminating apps is stupid - and ugly.
Well "more intuitive" is actually a phrase that means something. Your opinion about it doesn't change that meaning.
Apps are removed from their frozen state if the system begins to run out of memory.
It's effing ugly, whether the apps are "running" or not. It's lazy programming on Apple's part. If the app isn't doing anything, Apple should automatically remove it from the list of apps.
No. iOS does not do multitasking. I multitask on my Droid a lot. It's good to preserve clear definitions for terms.
Well, then you don't know what you're talking about. The Android multi-tasking system is very similar to iOS and neither qualify as "true multi-tasking" in the sense of a desktop computer. In the real world and to normal folks, they are both still "multi-tasking" however.
I'm guessing you are one of those young, male, Android fans that I referred to earlier who can't see the forest for the trees.
The apps in the list are suspended or running depending on their background task functionality.
Skype = running
Internet Radio = running
Apple apps = running
Other apps are suspended and open to the last used screen not a default new launch state.
Also Facebook is running for notifications even when it is not in the list.
I know you know that.
This isn?t hard. Just because it?s in FAS it does not mean it?s running in the background. ONLY APPS THAT HAVE THE BACKGROUNDING APIS ADDED ARE EVER RUNNING IN THE BACKGROUND.
Removing an app from FAS will kill its process(es) if it?s running in the background, but being in FAS doesn?t mean it?s running in the background. This was explained well a year ago so why people still think FAS is a list of running apps should not be happening.
Again, I encourage you people to do a little test. Start Skype, start Pandora, start iPod or whatever. Now check FAS to see the list of the last opened apps. Now power cycle your device. Now go back into FAS. ALL THOSE APPS WILL BE IN THERE THE WAY THEY WERE BEFORE YOU TURNED IT OFF YET THOSE APPS WILL NOT RUNNING. Can you guess why?
Obviously they do not own every possible combination of flicking gesture. Nowhere in iOS do you flick apps or pages off of the screen to erase them or move them somewhere else.
They come up with new flicking gestures for new functions that iOS did not have before. They don't introduce flicking gestures that break or conflict with previous interface guidelines. This is especially crucial because developers are following Apple's interface guidelines in the functionality of their apps.
Flicking left, right, up, down are certainly supported gestures by Apple. Yes, I agree that they don't currently use these gestures for app management. That's the point. I think they should. Would it introduce something new? Yes, of course. Would it mean that users would have to re-learn how to manage apps? Probably. Personally, I think if a user is smart enough to understand that they're managing background apps (or fast-switching-apps), then they're smart enough to figure out a new interface. The ones that would get confused by a new interface are the ones that don't check on their background apps today.
As to "interface guidelines", Apple breaks them whenever it suits them. Ever since they tossed the Human Interface Guidelines handbook 10 or 12 years ago, they do whatever they damn well want when they want. Developers follow Apple's trends or they get left behind. And personally, I don't see how a system wide interface gesture would affect any application at all. That's an iOS function. An app just needs to know when it's switched in and out. Not what gesture is used to perform that task.
Well "more intuitive" is actually a phrase that means something. Your opinion about it doesn't change that meaning.
"Intuitive" is squishy. It's all about opinion.
... but being in FAS doesn?t mean it?s running in the background. This was explained well a year ago so why people still think FAS is a list of running apps should not be happening.
I think this is the point of this thread. If it's not "running", it shouldn't be listed with those that are. This is about the human interface. It's clutter. Get rid of it if its not actively doing something.
As to "interface guidelines", Apple breaks them whenever it suits them. Ever since they tossed the Human Interface Guidelines handbook 10 or 12 years ago, they do whatever they damn well want when they want. Developers follow Apple's trends or they get left behind. And personally, I don't see how a system wide interface gesture would affect any application at all. That's an iOS function. An app just needs to know when it's switched in and out. Not what gesture is used to perform that task.
I think this is the point of this thread. If it's not "running", it shouldn't be listed with those that are. This is about the human interface. It's clutter. Get rid of it if its not actively doing something.
Again, I encourage you people to do a little test. Start Skype, start Pandora, start iPod or whatever. Now check FAS to see the list of the last opened apps. Now power cycle your device. Now go back into FAS. ALL THOSE APPS WILL BE IN THERE THE WAY THEY WERE BEFORE YOU TURNED IT OFF YET THOSE APPS WILL NOT RUNNING. Can you guess why?
They are still in there because when you restart your device the apps that have suspended states registered with the OS are put back in the list. That may be another way of thinking about the same thing but it is not that they were left in the list persistent over the restart, they were put back in the list after the restart. Some will be in various states not all are suspended. For example if Skype is in the list it can receive calls, so it definitely had to start back up after the power recycle.
In all fairness, the multi-tasking and the app switching are integrated together both in the current implementation and in this one.
I'm not sure there is any good reason (unless one is an Android fan and under the age of 15 or so), to keep harping on what 'true" multi-tasking is (versus app switching), or which of the various implementations of multi-tasking on mobile OS's is "really" multi-tasking. Can't we just agree that multi-tasking is just using more than one program at a time and that all the various implementations we see are "multi-tasking" in that sense?
Personally, the only thing I like about this implementation is that it leaves the "left-swipe from the home screen" open for other uses.
If this is in fact an early discarded multi-tasking implementation, I would guess the reason it didn't make the cut was that the little "windows" onto the apps are mostly blank and mostly don't give you a good idea of what program they are associated with or what will happen when you delete them. The current system leaves no doubt at all as to what's going on. You see a list of running apps, and you can delete them.
My biggest wish is for them to implement the four/five finger multi-tasking gestures, at least for the iPad. Double-clicking the home button is problematic and fails a lot.
I don't see any good reason why they shouldn't implement them like, yesterday.
Oh yea! Try using a chat messaging app like Yahoo Messenger and get frustrated with the countless pop up messages while using another app. Truth is that push notifications without real multitasking is a lame attempt by Apple.
I think this is the point of this thread. If it's not "running", it shouldn't be listed with those that are. This is about the human interface. It's clutter. Get rid of it if its not actively doing something.
It?s a FAST App Switcher. The word Fast is key. Another term for it is Recent Items. As stated, I don?t use FAS because I don?t think it?s faster, but I also don?t use the Recent Items lists throughout Mac OS.
It also a secondary function of removing apps from that list and if they are running it will kill their processes but this is not why FAS exists. You have misinterpreted what it does and what it represents.
They are still in there because when you restart your device the apps that have suspended states registered with the OS are put back in the list. That may be another way of thinking about the same thing but it is not that they were left in the list persistent over the restart, they were put back in the list after the restart. Some will be in various states not all are suspended. For example if Skype is in the list it can receive calls, so it definitely had to start back up after the power recycle.
For fuck?s sake!
The apps in the list are suspended or running depending on their background task functionality.
Skype = running
Internet Radio = running
Apple apps = running
Other apps are suspended and open to the last used screen not a default new launch state.
Also Facebook is running for notifications even when it is not in the list.
I know you know that.
Just so you know, Skype is not open. When you close Skype, it tells iOS to listen in on a port for incoming "calls", when iOS gets an incoming message, it then launches Skype, which then does it's thing. Even when you close Skype from the tray, iOS will be listening to incoming messages.
You are right about the suspending (in most cases) unless it's assigned to do something: The App is allowed to finish that task then suspend itself or if the task takes too long or the app doesn't suspend itself, iOS will suspend it for it.
However, you are wrong about Facebook. It is not running in the background for notifications. It uses the iOS push messaging framework, which listens for incoming push notifications. When iOS hears a message coming in, it receives small bits of info about what app it belongs to, a short message, and what to do when the user clicks "view". iOS then displays it on the screen (and updates the app badge and/or plays a noise). When you click "view" it launches Facebook and then Facebook has to check manually to see the update (since iOS was in control of the message, not the actual FB app). Push notifications are never triggered by the app because the app is not running.
There are other ways to multitask without the app actually running, even though it seems like the app is running. Like I said before, that is the point. In most cases, apps do not need to fully run in the background. Take a look at the multitasking APIs built into iOS and you'll understand it more.
Come on! It?s been a year since it?s been introduced. You guys should know that FAS is not a list of running apps.
And personally, I don't find anything fast about "fast app switching". Far too many clicks, swipes and taps. Perhaps I'm not using apps that show this capability to it's fullest potential.
How is it clutter if its in a separate tray that you have to purposefully open? If you don't like the FAS tray you do not have to use it.
I love that ?true mulitasking? is using no intelligent controls to manage apps.
Take the AnandTech review of PlayBook. They desperately want to find a tablet that can compete with the iPad yet they had this to say:
Despite the PlayBook having a 1GB of LP-DDR2 memory on-board, this thing can run out of memory quickly - particularly when multitasking with BlackBerry Bridge apps. If you've got a web page loaded in the Bridge Browser, you'll only be able to open a maximum of three other Bridge apps before you run out of memory.
Something is going on with those frozen apps because any time I have a problem with an app not starting up properly or freezing up, all I have to do is go into the multitasking UI and kill the apps. After that, whatever app was giving me a problem works fine.
The app is there because it has been recently opened. The whole point of FAS is to quickly restart an app that you were recently using. How is the system supposed to know when or if you are going to return to a recently open app?
Apps are removed from their frozen state if the system begins to run out of memory.
... or if you "close" them in the FAS bar.
If there is an inconsistency in the frozen state, causing them to not restart properly, removing the app from the FAS list, thus removing its state information, can often allow it to restart properly, if it's having trouble. It's part of the illusion that the apps are still running that when the state information is discarded, the app appears to "restart" rather than "resume". Sometimes you may notice this with an app that you didn't "close", which is an indication that the system silently discarded the state information because it was running out of memory.
Over all point being I see no reason for Apple to break its interface rules for the webOS management system. Apple will improve its management system within how iOS current functions.
And will probably continue with an inferior system.
And again, to "break" the interface rules, one must have rules that mean something. They only mean something to Apple for as long as they want them to mean something. If they think they have something better, they will quite willingly break the old ones.
For fuck?s sake!
I have read the programmer reference where it gives examples and details on how to save your app's state and this what I understand from that documentation.
You are over simplifying the meaning of being in the list and what is background activity. There are a few different scenarios.