Jobs is and will always be a hypocrite when it comes to Apple business decisions. The one and only reason Apple doesn't want it's customers to be able to access Flash is the fact that Flash allows users to freely access existing content which circumvents the money making apps and in-app content that is Apple's revenue making center. All the other stuff is smoke and mirrors. It is ridiculous that I can watch any internet content on my laptop regardless of the codec but get a message "your device is not supported" when I try to do the same on my iPad. The fanboiz can scream that I don't need to see content that the great Steve hasn't approved but I prefer to make that decision myself. If it wasn't for the fact that there simply is no tablet out yet that even approaches the build quality of the iPad I would already be out of the Apple sandbox.
Jobs is and will always be a hypocrite when it comes to Apple business decisions. The one and only reason Apple doesn't want it's customers to be able to access Flash is the fact that Flash allows users to freely access existing content which circumvents the money making apps and in-app content that is Apple's revenue making center. All the other stuff is smoke and mirrors. It is ridiculous that I can watch any internet content on my laptop regardless of the codec but get a message "your device is not supported" when I try to do the same on my iPad. The fanboiz can scream that I don't need to see content that the great Steve hasn't approved but I prefer to make that decision myself. If it wasn't for the fact that there simply is no tablet out yet that even approaches the build quality of the iPad I would already be out of the Apple sandbox.
Adobe didn't ship a tablet version of Flash until about two months after the Xoom shipped. Motorola was betting their future on Flash, and Adobe screwed them. That doesn't seem like smoke and mirrors to me.
Also, Flash isn't designed for touch interfaces and therefore many Flash apps are not fully functional on touch-based devices. Should Apple have dirtied their intuitive touch interface to accommodate Flash... which wasn't even ready to ship until this year? Uh, hello, that would be the dumbest bet Apple could have ever made. That one decision would have sidetracked the entire ship schedule for the iPad and reduced it to mediocrity.
And here's another thing to consider: if you can watch these other videos on your laptop, then just go watch them on your laptop. The iPad isn't a replacement for laptops; it's in a different category.
Well, what about the fact that Apple has been so desperate to maintain its artificial dominance (entirely due to the fact they got on the market first) by having anti competitive, illegal and arrogant behaviors?
What about the fact that the mobile market is not driven by devices or platform but by us, application developers?
What about the fact that while Apple was desperately trying whatever it can to screw everyone (developers, businesses, publishers, advertisers and even its own customers) and destroy the web, Adobe has been laughing all the way to the bank by imposing its Flash Platform as the #1 application development platform that allows us, developers to build once and deploy everywhere?
What about the fact that Steve Jobs attempted to kill Flash not because it is outdated but because it is too good and a threat to Apple's "divide and rule" strategy and a direct threat to iTunes and AppStore?
What about the fact that the European Competition Commissioner gave Steve Jobs a reality check by constraining Apple to reverse its change of TOS aimed at blocking the port of Flash application to iOS?
What about the fact that FTC constrained Apple to approve Google Voice?
What about the fact that Steve Jobs was recently ordered to testify in an ongoing antitrust lawsuit over iTunes which might very soon blow up to his face?
What about the fact that yet another investigation is around the corner over the Apple Tax and the in-app / subscription scam?
What about the fact that Apple broke its teeth trying to twist our arms (developers) to build for Apple first and Apple only?
What about the fact that we can now build apps in minutes that work on all platforms, screens and devices using Flash Platform?
What about the fact that the ban of Flash in the browser is now back firing and making Apple's devices ridiculously "has been" and isolated Apple in its corner?
What about the fact that the entire industry rallied behind Adobe?
That is what you get when you f*%ck with everyone and think you are so big that you can get away with it... Apple is big but not as big as the rest of the business and development world determined to bring it down as much for its arrogance and big mouth CEO than for its market advance or temporary dominance?
Apple is dead, long live the open web and multi screen apps.
This is a blog post I wrote on Apple's war on Flash last year:
Well, what about the fact that Apple has been so desperate to maintain its artificial dominance (entirely due to the fact they got on the market first) by having anti competitive, illegal and arrogant behaviors?
What artificial dominance are you talking about? The 3% of the personal computer market or their 3% of the mobile phone market?
Quote:
What about the fact that the mobile market is not driven by devices or platform but by us, application developers?
The mobile market is driven by the mobile phone carriers. They are the ones who decide which phones are available.
Quote:
What about the fact that while Apple was desperately trying whatever it can to screw everyone (developers, businesses, publishers, advertisers and even its own customers) and destroy the web, Adobe has been laughing all the way to the bank by imposing its Flash Platform as the #1 application development platform that allows us, developers to build once and deploy everywhere?
Apple is one of the largest proponents and contributors to the open web. Apple fought Microsoft to wrench control of web development from Active X back to HTML.
You make this claim in an article talking about an open web streaming protocol that Apple has developed and given away to everyone for free.
Quote:
What about the fact that Steve Jobs attempted to kill Flash not because it is outdated but because it is too good and a threat to Apple's "divide and rule" strategy and a direct threat to iTunes and AppStore?
What exactly has Steve Jobs done to kill Flash? Adobe is solely responsible for the live or death of Flash as a platform. Apple has nothing to do with that.
If Flash is so great why does it remain in some form perpetual "coming soon" status on Android devices? By comparison HTML works on everything.
Quote:
What about the fact that the European Competition Commissioner gave Steve Jobs a reality check by constraining Apple to reverse its change of TOS aimed at blocking the port of Flash application to iOS?
Where is evidence of this being the reason for that change?
Quote:
What about the fact that FTC constrained Apple to approve Google Voice?
Where is evidence of that?
Quote:
What about the fact that Steve Jobs was recently ordered to testify in an ongoing antitrust lawsuit over iTunes which might very soon blow up to his face?
Largely a complaint because competitors wanted in on the iTunes ecosystem. Its not anti-competitive to not share property with other companies.
Quote:
What about the fact that yet another investigation is around the corner over the Apple Tax and the in-app / subscription scam?
If people don't like the policy they don't have to use the service. Its as simply as that.
Quote:
What about the fact that Apple broke its teeth trying to twist our arms (developers) to build for Apple first and Apple only?
Give an example of where Apple has forced anyone to build only for its platforms?
Quote:
What about the fact that we can now build apps in minutes that work on all platforms, screens and devices using Flash Platform?
Give us a good example of an app built in Flash that works great on every screen and every device?
Quote:
What about the fact that the ban of Flash in the browser is now back firing and making Apple's devices ridiculously "has been" and isolated Apple in its corner?
Did you read the article you are posting this in? Adobe is including technology that allows streaming video without Flash. How is that backfiring on Apple?
Quote:
Apple is dead, long live the open web and multi screen apps.
What artificial dominance are you talking about? The 3% of the personal computer market or their 3% of the mobile phone market?
iTunes and AppStore, markets that Apple controls at 75% or something (was 90% for apps in 2010, and they will dominate until Android AppStore from Amazon and Microsoft really take off). Keep in mind also that you do not even have to have an actual monopoly to be in violation with anti trust law. Look, just google it ok! Google Apple + DOJ + FTC + EU and see, also do not forget to google "Steve Jobs ordered to testify" + iTunes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
The mobile market is driven by the mobile phone carriers. They are the ones who decide which phones are available.
That is the funniest thing ever! Well, you are the expert apparently... Keep believing that. Applications drive the market, whoever controls applications controls the market and that is exactly what Apple tried to do with their scams (see below the EU statement).
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
Where is evidence of this being the reason for that change?
The investigation concerned Apple's decision of April 2010 to restrict the terms and conditions of its licence agreement with independent developers of applications or 'apps' for its iPhone operating system. It focussed on the rationale underlying Apple's requirement to use only Apple's native programming tools and approved languages when writing iPhone apps, to the detriment of third-party layers, which could have ultimately resulted in shutting out competition from devices running platforms other than Apple's.
The European Competition Commission was pleased with the effectiveness of its investigation. "Apple's response to our preliminary investigations shows that the Commission can use the competition rules to achieve swift results on the market with clear benefits for consumers, without the need to open formal proceedings," Almunia said.
And that is all the time I am willing to dedicate answering a brain washed Apple fanatic.
iTunes and AppStore, markets that Apple controls at 75% or something (was 90% for apps in 2010, and they will dominate until Android AppStore from Amazon and Microsoft really take off). Keep in mind also that you do not even have to have an actual monopoly to be in violation with anti trust law. Look, just google it ok! Google Apple + DOJ + FTC + EU and see, also do not forget to google "Steve Jobs ordered to testify" + iTunes.
iTunes and the App Store are not open markets. They are proprietary services offered from one company. They are very popular and successful services. But they don't dominate anything.
Quote:
That is the funniest thing ever! Well, you are the expert apparently... Keep believing that. Applications drive the market, whoever controls applications controls the market and that is exactly what Apple tried to do with their scams (see below the EU statement).
Prior to the iPhone the mobile carriers largely had full control over the OS versions and applications available on their phones. Apple came in and totally changed that dynamic.
Developers can only develop on the phones and platforms available for them to develop on. Who decides what phones and platforms are available?
Quote:
The European Competition Commission was pleased with the effectiveness of its investigation. "Apple's response to our preliminary investigations shows that the Commission can use the competition rules to achieve swift results on the market with clear benefits for consumers, without the need to open formal proceedings," Almunia said.
There have also been investigations into why Apple will not allow Flash on iOS. What has come from those investigations and have they made Apple change their stance?
The ECC made an initial investigation and were happy with the results of Apple's decision. They did not make any rule or judgement one way or the other. Apple is not the only platform Adobe's products can be used. If the EUU had proceeded with a formal investigation and ruling, we don't know what they would have ruled.
Apple changed some of the rules of how third party development tools can be used with iOS and were satisfied from there. This sounds like a win - win for everyone and you want to construe it into Apple being strong armed - when their is no evidence that they were strong armed.
Quote:
And that is all the time I am willing to dedicate answering a brain washed Apple fanatic.
.....you actually had to dedicate time to this skewed logic and paper thin evidence to back it up?
Ok guys, allow me to give you a bit of a reality check here because this is not kool aid anymore, it's hallucinogen mushrooms!!
Adobe is a company that sells tools, they will do whatever it takes to sell their tools. Right now, they are laughing all the way to the bank because Steve Jobs attempt to kill the Flash Platform and the Creative Suite 5 failed beautifully! It took a year, but it failed! Apple tried to destroy Adobe's ability to deliver technologies allowing to build device agnostic applications by changing its TOS to refrain the port of Flash apps to the iOS. Unfortunately for Mr Jobs, the EU Competition Commissioner gave the company a reality check. Apple reversed the change and Adobe broke into iOS no matter what Steve has to say about it.
Now, if you think one second that any or this means the end of Flash you are past the stage of disillusion! When you will have by the end of 2001 one tablet without Flash support and 40 tablet with it, along with dozens of smartphone and a community of 3,000,000 developers catching up, you will be crying for help because your beloved iOS is going to be as relevant to mobile as Macintosh is to computer: it's nice, it looks nice but who cares about it other than 10 or 15% of the market?
Developers do not want to build for Apple only, we want to develop once and deploy everywhere. When I say everywhere, I mean everywhere! Pc, Mac, Linux, web, mobile, native, TV... you name it.
Please check the following videos and educate yourself a bit (I do not post the videos to not be accused of whatever you call it when someone post a non "cult friendly" resource), just google it:
1/ Top CEO's Advocate Flash: that is virtually the entire industry explaining to you how Flash is the future of mobility.
2/ Flash Mobile Adoption in 2011: that will present to you your worst nightmare and might make you feel a bit stupid but don't worry you're not, you're just brain watched.
And finally, if you are really courageous, check my Twitter 'flexengineer', just make sure you sit first because you will eventually end up on my blog and that one you are not going to like it a bit!! And before to go "nanana, he's a Flash fan" please note that yes, I happen to be one of the top Flex architects and developers in the country, you know one of those guys who do not play developer with HTML5 and Objective C.
Oh by the way, I filed yesterday a Freedom of Information Act request with the FTC to get a copy of the 200 pages complaint submitted by Adobe last year to stop Apple in its vendetta and I intend to flood the web and the press with those documents, along with those from the EU Commission. Be ready for this because it will make the fanbois shut it once and for all, that's for sure!
Now there is one last pill that is hard to swallow but there is nothing you can do about it and it's time to get ready for it: soon, under the impulse of China, the mobile market is going to explode and when that will happen, a smartphone will cost $5 to $10. Who do you think will run the show then? The fancy device maker? The biggest carrier? Or the largest application marketplace? I vote for the latter. Now, what is bigger than the web? There you go, you got your reason why Apple is trying to destroy it with the HTML5 and ban of Flash scam. Unfortunately, since Jobs failed to kill Flash, it is now spreading on all devices and iOS is getting screwed! Don't shoot the messenger, just remember this post and let's talk about it at the end of 2011!!
Comments
Jobs is and will always be a hypocrite when it comes to Apple business decisions. The one and only reason Apple doesn't want it's customers to be able to access Flash is the fact that Flash allows users to freely access existing content which circumvents the money making apps and in-app content that is Apple's revenue making center. All the other stuff is smoke and mirrors. It is ridiculous that I can watch any internet content on my laptop regardless of the codec but get a message "your device is not supported" when I try to do the same on my iPad. The fanboiz can scream that I don't need to see content that the great Steve hasn't approved but I prefer to make that decision myself. If it wasn't for the fact that there simply is no tablet out yet that even approaches the build quality of the iPad I would already be out of the Apple sandbox.
Adobe didn't ship a tablet version of Flash until about two months after the Xoom shipped. Motorola was betting their future on Flash, and Adobe screwed them. That doesn't seem like smoke and mirrors to me.
Also, Flash isn't designed for touch interfaces and therefore many Flash apps are not fully functional on touch-based devices. Should Apple have dirtied their intuitive touch interface to accommodate Flash... which wasn't even ready to ship until this year? Uh, hello, that would be the dumbest bet Apple could have ever made. That one decision would have sidetracked the entire ship schedule for the iPad and reduced it to mediocrity.
And here's another thing to consider: if you can watch these other videos on your laptop, then just go watch them on your laptop. The iPad isn't a replacement for laptops; it's in a different category.
Gaining steam? So we're at about 180 million iOS devices sold so far ... don't you think we're a bit beyond "gaining steam"?
This of course means "Helloooo iTunes Locker!"
What about the fact that the mobile market is not driven by devices or platform but by us, application developers?
What about the fact that while Apple was desperately trying whatever it can to screw everyone (developers, businesses, publishers, advertisers and even its own customers) and destroy the web, Adobe has been laughing all the way to the bank by imposing its Flash Platform as the #1 application development platform that allows us, developers to build once and deploy everywhere?
What about the fact that Steve Jobs attempted to kill Flash not because it is outdated but because it is too good and a threat to Apple's "divide and rule" strategy and a direct threat to iTunes and AppStore?
What about the fact that the European Competition Commissioner gave Steve Jobs a reality check by constraining Apple to reverse its change of TOS aimed at blocking the port of Flash application to iOS?
What about the fact that FTC constrained Apple to approve Google Voice?
What about the fact that Steve Jobs was recently ordered to testify in an ongoing antitrust lawsuit over iTunes which might very soon blow up to his face?
What about the fact that yet another investigation is around the corner over the Apple Tax and the in-app / subscription scam?
What about the fact that Apple broke its teeth trying to twist our arms (developers) to build for Apple first and Apple only?
What about the fact that we can now build apps in minutes that work on all platforms, screens and devices using Flash Platform?
What about the fact that the ban of Flash in the browser is now back firing and making Apple's devices ridiculously "has been" and isolated Apple in its corner?
What about the fact that the entire industry rallied behind Adobe?
That is what you get when you f*%ck with everyone and think you are so big that you can get away with it... Apple is big but not as big as the rest of the business and development world determined to bring it down as much for its arrogance and big mouth CEO than for its market advance or temporary dominance?
Apple is dead, long live the open web and multi screen apps.
This is a blog post I wrote on Apple's war on Flash last year:
http://applesucks.squarespace.com/bl...sh-enable.html
I've heard that it's possible to block ads from their source. We'll see how it goes.
Will HTML5 be a carrier of obnoxious animated ads? I sure hope there's an HTML5 blocker in the works - like Click2HTML5 (with a better name).
Well, what about the fact that Apple has been so desperate to maintain its artificial dominance (entirely due to the fact they got on the market first) by having anti competitive, illegal and arrogant behaviors?
What artificial dominance are you talking about? The 3% of the personal computer market or their 3% of the mobile phone market?
What about the fact that the mobile market is not driven by devices or platform but by us, application developers?
The mobile market is driven by the mobile phone carriers. They are the ones who decide which phones are available.
What about the fact that while Apple was desperately trying whatever it can to screw everyone (developers, businesses, publishers, advertisers and even its own customers) and destroy the web, Adobe has been laughing all the way to the bank by imposing its Flash Platform as the #1 application development platform that allows us, developers to build once and deploy everywhere?
Apple is one of the largest proponents and contributors to the open web. Apple fought Microsoft to wrench control of web development from Active X back to HTML.
You make this claim in an article talking about an open web streaming protocol that Apple has developed and given away to everyone for free.
What about the fact that Steve Jobs attempted to kill Flash not because it is outdated but because it is too good and a threat to Apple's "divide and rule" strategy and a direct threat to iTunes and AppStore?
What exactly has Steve Jobs done to kill Flash? Adobe is solely responsible for the live or death of Flash as a platform. Apple has nothing to do with that.
If Flash is so great why does it remain in some form perpetual "coming soon" status on Android devices? By comparison HTML works on everything.
What about the fact that the European Competition Commissioner gave Steve Jobs a reality check by constraining Apple to reverse its change of TOS aimed at blocking the port of Flash application to iOS?
Where is evidence of this being the reason for that change?
What about the fact that FTC constrained Apple to approve Google Voice?
Where is evidence of that?
What about the fact that Steve Jobs was recently ordered to testify in an ongoing antitrust lawsuit over iTunes which might very soon blow up to his face?
Largely a complaint because competitors wanted in on the iTunes ecosystem. Its not anti-competitive to not share property with other companies.
What about the fact that yet another investigation is around the corner over the Apple Tax and the in-app / subscription scam?
If people don't like the policy they don't have to use the service. Its as simply as that.
What about the fact that Apple broke its teeth trying to twist our arms (developers) to build for Apple first and Apple only?
Give an example of where Apple has forced anyone to build only for its platforms?
What about the fact that we can now build apps in minutes that work on all platforms, screens and devices using Flash Platform?
Give us a good example of an app built in Flash that works great on every screen and every device?
What about the fact that the ban of Flash in the browser is now back firing and making Apple's devices ridiculously "has been" and isolated Apple in its corner?
Did you read the article you are posting this in? Adobe is including technology that allows streaming video without Flash. How is that backfiring on Apple?
Apple is dead, long live the open web and multi screen apps.
Uhhh.........What reality are you living in?
What artificial dominance are you talking about? The 3% of the personal computer market or their 3% of the mobile phone market?
iTunes and AppStore, markets that Apple controls at 75% or something (was 90% for apps in 2010, and they will dominate until Android AppStore from Amazon and Microsoft really take off). Keep in mind also that you do not even have to have an actual monopoly to be in violation with anti trust law. Look, just google it ok! Google Apple + DOJ + FTC + EU and see, also do not forget to google "Steve Jobs ordered to testify" + iTunes.
The mobile market is driven by the mobile phone carriers. They are the ones who decide which phones are available.
That is the funniest thing ever! Well, you are the expert apparently... Keep believing that. Applications drive the market, whoever controls applications controls the market and that is exactly what Apple tried to do with their scams (see below the EU statement).
Where is evidence of this being the reason for that change?
The investigation concerned Apple's decision of April 2010 to restrict the terms and conditions of its licence agreement with independent developers of applications or 'apps' for its iPhone operating system. It focussed on the rationale underlying Apple's requirement to use only Apple's native programming tools and approved languages when writing iPhone apps, to the detriment of third-party layers, which could have ultimately resulted in shutting out competition from devices running platforms other than Apple's.
The European Competition Commission was pleased with the effectiveness of its investigation. "Apple's response to our preliminary investigations shows that the Commission can use the competition rules to achieve swift results on the market with clear benefits for consumers, without the need to open formal proceedings," Almunia said.
And that is all the time I am willing to dedicate answering a brain washed Apple fanatic.
iTunes and AppStore, markets that Apple controls at 75% or something (was 90% for apps in 2010, and they will dominate until Android AppStore from Amazon and Microsoft really take off). Keep in mind also that you do not even have to have an actual monopoly to be in violation with anti trust law. Look, just google it ok! Google Apple + DOJ + FTC + EU and see, also do not forget to google "Steve Jobs ordered to testify" + iTunes.
iTunes and the App Store are not open markets. They are proprietary services offered from one company. They are very popular and successful services. But they don't dominate anything.
That is the funniest thing ever! Well, you are the expert apparently... Keep believing that. Applications drive the market, whoever controls applications controls the market and that is exactly what Apple tried to do with their scams (see below the EU statement).
Prior to the iPhone the mobile carriers largely had full control over the OS versions and applications available on their phones. Apple came in and totally changed that dynamic.
Developers can only develop on the phones and platforms available for them to develop on. Who decides what phones and platforms are available?
The European Competition Commission was pleased with the effectiveness of its investigation. "Apple's response to our preliminary investigations shows that the Commission can use the competition rules to achieve swift results on the market with clear benefits for consumers, without the need to open formal proceedings," Almunia said.
There have also been investigations into why Apple will not allow Flash on iOS. What has come from those investigations and have they made Apple change their stance?
The ECC made an initial investigation and were happy with the results of Apple's decision. They did not make any rule or judgement one way or the other. Apple is not the only platform Adobe's products can be used. If the EUU had proceeded with a formal investigation and ruling, we don't know what they would have ruled.
Apple changed some of the rules of how third party development tools can be used with iOS and were satisfied from there. This sounds like a win - win for everyone and you want to construe it into Apple being strong armed - when their is no evidence that they were strong armed.
And that is all the time I am willing to dedicate answering a brain washed Apple fanatic.
.....you actually had to dedicate time to this skewed logic and paper thin evidence to back it up?
Adobe is a company that sells tools, they will do whatever it takes to sell their tools. Right now, they are laughing all the way to the bank because Steve Jobs attempt to kill the Flash Platform and the Creative Suite 5 failed beautifully! It took a year, but it failed! Apple tried to destroy Adobe's ability to deliver technologies allowing to build device agnostic applications by changing its TOS to refrain the port of Flash apps to the iOS. Unfortunately for Mr Jobs, the EU Competition Commissioner gave the company a reality check. Apple reversed the change and Adobe broke into iOS no matter what Steve has to say about it.
Now, if you think one second that any or this means the end of Flash you are past the stage of disillusion! When you will have by the end of 2001 one tablet without Flash support and 40 tablet with it, along with dozens of smartphone and a community of 3,000,000 developers catching up, you will be crying for help because your beloved iOS is going to be as relevant to mobile as Macintosh is to computer: it's nice, it looks nice but who cares about it other than 10 or 15% of the market?
Developers do not want to build for Apple only, we want to develop once and deploy everywhere. When I say everywhere, I mean everywhere! Pc, Mac, Linux, web, mobile, native, TV... you name it.
Please check the following videos and educate yourself a bit (I do not post the videos to not be accused of whatever you call it when someone post a non "cult friendly" resource), just google it:
1/ Top CEO's Advocate Flash: that is virtually the entire industry explaining to you how Flash is the future of mobility.
2/ Flash Mobile Adoption in 2011: that will present to you your worst nightmare and might make you feel a bit stupid but don't worry you're not, you're just brain watched.
And finally, if you are really courageous, check my Twitter 'flexengineer', just make sure you sit first because you will eventually end up on my blog and that one you are not going to like it a bit!! And before to go "nanana, he's a Flash fan" please note that yes, I happen to be one of the top Flex architects and developers in the country, you know one of those guys who do not play developer with HTML5 and Objective C.
Oh by the way, I filed yesterday a Freedom of Information Act request with the FTC to get a copy of the 200 pages complaint submitted by Adobe last year to stop Apple in its vendetta and I intend to flood the web and the press with those documents, along with those from the EU Commission. Be ready for this because it will make the fanbois shut it once and for all, that's for sure!
Now there is one last pill that is hard to swallow but there is nothing you can do about it and it's time to get ready for it: soon, under the impulse of China, the mobile market is going to explode and when that will happen, a smartphone will cost $5 to $10. Who do you think will run the show then? The fancy device maker? The biggest carrier? Or the largest application marketplace? I vote for the latter. Now, what is bigger than the web? There you go, you got your reason why Apple is trying to destroy it with the HTML5 and ban of Flash scam. Unfortunately, since Jobs failed to kill Flash, it is now spreading on all devices and iOS is getting screwed! Don't shoot the messenger, just remember this post and let's talk about it at the end of 2011!!