ijerry: it might not matter to some of us how "Christian" debating is, we may just be here for the sake of argument and discussion or have other belief systems. This is a theism/atheism/agnosticism debate, not just an Atheism/Christian debate. <hr></blockquote>
I did not mean to come off only against christians...sorry. In all of my other posts I included all other religions, so the same applies to my prior post.
[quote]SJO, I think that that is a little simplistic on a number of fronts: for one, this myth about science as replacing the myths of religion. Science is a set of descriptive disciplines through whch we can either do things or describe some things. Science's turn to cosmology usually ends up in the same realms of mytholgy and contest that theology does.<hr></blockquote>
How long has the "scientific age" been with us? A couple of centuries at best, perhaps? In the last 100 years or so we have learned out more about ourselves, our surroundings, our planet, the Universe and the nature of matter, through peer reviewed research and rational deduction since humans first walked the Earth a few hundred thousand years back. All religion has done is make guesses, usually subjective, and enforce arbitrary viewpoints, whereas science at least tries to uncover the truth through the rigor of test and observation.
Sure, there is always bad science to muck the works, and always will be, but that usually happens when money and (the resulting) bias enters the picture, or someone has an ax to grind. The same can also be said for religion; the rot sets in when faiths are co-opted by big business, as is certainly the case in most modern faiths, whether they be big establishment religions or small cults.
[quote]Descriptions of the behaviors of natural phenomena, which can be tested and can result in prescriptions of how to deal with them to make bridges are still NO MORE undrestandings the Being of these phenomena then painting a picture of them would be. There is a difference between scientific understanding of the properties of matter and understanding the why of matter at all. Somewhere therin liew the mystery that propels people to tell stories that try to get at kinds of meaning that scientific reductionism cannot.<hr></blockquote>
Thats fair...but DO give science a chance! What we know today is 'n' times more than we knew 100 years ago....namely a huge and exponential increase in our knowledge base. Perhaps during the next 100 years will see proven explanations for such knotty current unknowns such as the fundamental nature of matter, the origin of the universe, the nature of human consciousness, the possibility of life after death, etc etc?
[quote]It just so happens that these stories for the most part are the terrible form of indoctrination and stifling of thought that you
portray<hr></blockquote>
Governments worldwide, including our current Administration insist on FAVORING these unproven and irrational (pre)historical myths, and simultaneously denounce those who reject superstitious mumbo jumbo. This is sad, and the future of America deserves better than the wholesale indoctrination of our children with arbitrary flimflam. I am not in favor of state or federally sanctioned child abuse.
[quote]but I am also weary of the wholesale indoctrination and stifling of thought that can come from the myth of science<hr></blockquote>
What a profoundly depressing statement! Do you really feel that science is a total myth, honestly? If science is a myth, then it has failed in it's quest for truth and reality. There is no hope for us! Since religion has failed utterly in lifting humanity out of the jungle, then what is there left?
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>If only the greater scientific literacy and rationality of today had been around at the time of the Founding Fathers. Maybe then they would have excluded the God word from the Constitution on the grounds of lack of, or inconclusive evidence.
It is painful to still see billions of young children all over the world indoctrinated and brainwashed with a variety of ancient myths and fairytales based on nothing more than superstition, ignorance and misunderstanding of natural phenomena, in the pretence that such beliefs will make them "better", or "more moral", or "upstanding human beings".
The prevalence of (organized or forced) religion is the worst scenario that has ever befallen humanity. How many more centuries of war, destruction, starvation and hatred will the human race have to suffer because of our collective addiction to this excess baggage of superstitious wackiness?
Dump the lot.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thats putting it abit strongly, buts its probably true that more people suffer and die through religious conflict than any other cause. For me, God does exist, but only as a concept in peoples minds. Man created God, not the other way around. If man didn't exist, God wouldn't exist. Like you I believe religion is just a leftover from the Dark Ages, where people didn't have the scientific knowledge to explain the world around them.
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>If only the greater scientific literacy and rationality of today had been around at the time of the Founding Fathers. Maybe then they would have excluded the God word from the Constitution on the grounds of lack of, or inconclusive evidence.
It is painful to still see billions of young children all over the world indoctrinated and brainwashed with a variety of ancient myths and fairytales based on nothing more than superstition, ignorance and misunderstanding of natural phenomena, in the pretence that such beliefs will make them "better", or "more moral", or "upstanding human beings".
The prevalence of (organized or forced) religion is the worst scenario that has ever befallen humanity. How many more centuries of war, destruction, starvation and hatred will the human race have to suffer because of our collective addiction to this excess baggage of superstitious wackiness?
Dump the lot.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Same can be said about nationalism and socialism... always appealing to subjective nonsense.
I am a scientist but I am not an atheist. I think it is rational for God to exist... the cause without cause.
Thats putting it abit strongly, buts its probably true that more people suffer and die through religious conflict than any other cause. For me, God does exist, but only as a concept in peoples minds. Man created God, not the other way around. If man didn't exist, God wouldn't exist. Like you I believe religion is just a leftover from the Dark Ages, where people didn't have the scientific knowledge to explain the world around them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Correction, if man didn't exist the jewish god wouldn't exist (or any other god that relies on ethics for that matter), but if your concept of God is (paraphrasing Hawking) what breathes fire to the set of equations that describes the Universe, then it is entirely independant of the human mind.
I think some people don't like atheists because when treating moral matters they are often disrespectful and intolerant towards religious people. Oh, plus the fact that they feel superior just because they ignore God's existance.
[QB]Give a tithing and more if needed. [QB]<hr></blockquote>
Yeah this isn't new testament, it's old. The whole 10% thing is what I assume you're referring to. Jesus basically said 'tithe if you feel you need to' in the new testament.
Not a christian myself, here is one little thing i never really understood:
1. noah grabbed two of every animal and threw them on the ark.
2. fundamental christians don't believe in evolution
every species on earth wouldn't come CLOSE to fitting on an ark. and how the hell would the penguins and weird stuff like that get to the ark? what about plants? so basically, if you fill up an ark with animals, you'll get maybe 0.5% of them, thus relying on evolution after everything dries up. but the same christians who take the bible literally don't believe in evolution. yeah, confuses me to.
hmmmm... maybe i should go get crucified so everyone'll worship me too!
- Xidius </strong><hr></blockquote>
Suddenly I understand the first post a little better...
But I still disagree because I don't judge people from their religion, colour etc. - but instead their actions and behavior.
You see, I have many different friends - some are atheists, some are christians, some are jewish and others are something else. I think we all have one thing in common, we may disagree, but we respect eachothers choice. That means we don't go around mocking the symbols and meanings of our different believes - or non-believes.
You wouldn't fit in that group.
I strongly recommend you start learning to respect other people than yourself. Because, if you don't, then you have very little to respect!
Hey, well, I suppose if one was going to choose someone to worship, the best choice obviously lies with me.
After all, Im a cool guy. I shaved my beard recently, so Im hip, and with the times. I use an apple, and stay clear of windows. I recently made a little trade with the devil.. Hitlers soul for Bill Gates'. I think it was more of a one sided trade.. I pitty that red fool.
Anways, you have all done well, my children, yadda yadda yadda *sips beer*.
Me bless!
- God
This message has been brought to you by the Diety institute®, 166643 Heaven Dr.
is there something to this bear sipping that we should know about? i mean, if it's better than beer, count me in. although it does sound a little dangerous for us mortals.
[quote]Originally posted by running with scissors:
<strong>
hey god,
is there something to this bear sipping that we should know about? i mean, if it's better than beer, count me in. although it does sound a little dangerous for us mortals.
-rws</strong><hr></blockquote>
Even god doesn't have perfect spelling.
- God
This message has been brought to you by the Diety institute®, 166643 Heaven Dr.
Comments
From: UK
\t posted 06-29-2002 02:42 PM Â*Â*Â* Â*Â* Â*Â* Â*Â* Â* Â* Â*Â*
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ijerry: it might not matter to some of us how "Christian" debating is, we may just be here for the sake of argument and discussion or have other belief systems. This is a theism/atheism/agnosticism debate, not just an Atheism/Christian debate. <hr></blockquote>
I did not mean to come off only against christians...sorry. In all of my other posts I included all other religions, so the same applies to my prior post.
End of line...
How long has the "scientific age" been with us? A couple of centuries at best, perhaps? In the last 100 years or so we have learned out more about ourselves, our surroundings, our planet, the Universe and the nature of matter, through peer reviewed research and rational deduction since humans first walked the Earth a few hundred thousand years back. All religion has done is make guesses, usually subjective, and enforce arbitrary viewpoints, whereas science at least tries to uncover the truth through the rigor of test and observation.
Sure, there is always bad science to muck the works, and always will be, but that usually happens when money and (the resulting) bias enters the picture, or someone has an ax to grind. The same can also be said for religion; the rot sets in when faiths are co-opted by big business, as is certainly the case in most modern faiths, whether they be big establishment religions or small cults.
[quote]Descriptions of the behaviors of natural phenomena, which can be tested and can result in prescriptions of how to deal with them to make bridges are still NO MORE undrestandings the Being of these phenomena then painting a picture of them would be. There is a difference between scientific understanding of the properties of matter and understanding the why of matter at all. Somewhere therin liew the mystery that propels people to tell stories that try to get at kinds of meaning that scientific reductionism cannot.<hr></blockquote>
Thats fair...but DO give science a chance! What we know today is 'n' times more than we knew 100 years ago....namely a huge and exponential increase in our knowledge base. Perhaps during the next 100 years will see proven explanations for such knotty current unknowns such as the fundamental nature of matter, the origin of the universe, the nature of human consciousness, the possibility of life after death, etc etc?
[quote]It just so happens that these stories for the most part are the terrible form of indoctrination and stifling of thought that you
portray<hr></blockquote>
Governments worldwide, including our current Administration insist on FAVORING these unproven and irrational (pre)historical myths, and simultaneously denounce those who reject superstitious mumbo jumbo. This is sad, and the future of America deserves better than the wholesale indoctrination of our children with arbitrary flimflam. I am not in favor of state or federally sanctioned child abuse.
[quote]but I am also weary of the wholesale indoctrination and stifling of thought that can come from the myth of science<hr></blockquote>
What a profoundly depressing statement! Do you really feel that science is a total myth, honestly? If science is a myth, then it has failed in it's quest for truth and reality. There is no hope for us! Since religion has failed utterly in lifting humanity out of the jungle, then what is there left?
<strong>If only the greater scientific literacy and rationality of today had been around at the time of the Founding Fathers. Maybe then they would have excluded the God word from the Constitution on the grounds of lack of, or inconclusive evidence.
It is painful to still see billions of young children all over the world indoctrinated and brainwashed with a variety of ancient myths and fairytales based on nothing more than superstition, ignorance and misunderstanding of natural phenomena, in the pretence that such beliefs will make them "better", or "more moral", or "upstanding human beings".
The prevalence of (organized or forced) religion is the worst scenario that has ever befallen humanity. How many more centuries of war, destruction, starvation and hatred will the human race have to suffer because of our collective addiction to this excess baggage of superstitious wackiness?
Dump the lot.
Thats putting it abit strongly, buts its probably true that more people suffer and die through religious conflict than any other cause. For me, God does exist, but only as a concept in peoples minds. Man created God, not the other way around. If man didn't exist, God wouldn't exist. Like you I believe religion is just a leftover from the Dark Ages, where people didn't have the scientific knowledge to explain the world around them.
<strong>If only the greater scientific literacy and rationality of today had been around at the time of the Founding Fathers. Maybe then they would have excluded the God word from the Constitution on the grounds of lack of, or inconclusive evidence.
It is painful to still see billions of young children all over the world indoctrinated and brainwashed with a variety of ancient myths and fairytales based on nothing more than superstition, ignorance and misunderstanding of natural phenomena, in the pretence that such beliefs will make them "better", or "more moral", or "upstanding human beings".
The prevalence of (organized or forced) religion is the worst scenario that has ever befallen humanity. How many more centuries of war, destruction, starvation and hatred will the human race have to suffer because of our collective addiction to this excess baggage of superstitious wackiness?
Dump the lot.
Same can be said about nationalism and socialism... always appealing to subjective nonsense.
I am a scientist but I am not an atheist. I think it is rational for God to exist... the cause without cause.
<strong>
Thats putting it abit strongly, buts its probably true that more people suffer and die through religious conflict than any other cause. For me, God does exist, but only as a concept in peoples minds. Man created God, not the other way around. If man didn't exist, God wouldn't exist. Like you I believe religion is just a leftover from the Dark Ages, where people didn't have the scientific knowledge to explain the world around them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Correction, if man didn't exist the jewish god wouldn't exist (or any other god that relies on ethics for that matter), but if your concept of God is (paraphrasing Hawking) what breathes fire to the set of equations that describes the Universe, then it is entirely independant of the human mind.
[ 06-29-2002: Message edited by: soulcrusher ]</p>
God: Nietzsche is dead.
The best jokes are the classics.
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
[QB]Give a tithing and more if needed. [QB]<hr></blockquote>
Yeah this isn't new testament, it's old. The whole 10% thing is what I assume you're referring to. Jesus basically said 'tithe if you feel you need to' in the new testament.
Not a christian myself, here is one little thing i never really understood:
1. noah grabbed two of every animal and threw them on the ark.
2. fundamental christians don't believe in evolution
every species on earth wouldn't come CLOSE to fitting on an ark. and how the hell would the penguins and weird stuff like that get to the ark? what about plants? so basically, if you fill up an ark with animals, you'll get maybe 0.5% of them, thus relying on evolution after everything dries up. but the same christians who take the bible literally don't believe in evolution. yeah, confuses me to.
<strong>Don't like'em.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think that if we respect people for what they believe we should also respect people for choosing not to believe.
<strong>
hmmmm... maybe i should go get crucified so everyone'll worship me too!
- Xidius
Suddenly I understand the first post a little better...
But I still disagree because I don't judge people from their religion, colour etc. - but instead their actions and behavior.
You see, I have many different friends - some are atheists, some are christians, some are jewish and others are something else. I think we all have one thing in common, we may disagree, but we respect eachothers choice. That means we don't go around mocking the symbols and meanings of our different believes - or non-believes.
You wouldn't fit in that group.
I strongly recommend you start learning to respect other people than yourself. Because, if you don't, then you have very little to respect!
<strong>
I think that if we respect people for what they believe we should also respect people for choosing not to believe.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well said!
After all, Im a cool guy. I shaved my beard recently, so Im hip, and with the times. I use an apple, and stay clear of windows. I recently made a little trade with the devil.. Hitlers soul for Bill Gates'. I think it was more of a one sided trade.. I pitty that red fool.
Anways, you have all done well, my children, yadda yadda yadda *sips beer*.
Me bless!
- God
This message has been brought to you by the Diety institute®, 166643 Heaven Dr.
[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: God ]</p>
<strong>*sips bear*.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
hey god,
is there something to this bear sipping that we should know about? i mean, if it's better than beer, count me in. although it does sound a little dangerous for us mortals.
-rws
<strong>
hey god,
is there something to this bear sipping that we should know about? i mean, if it's better than beer, count me in. although it does sound a little dangerous for us mortals.
-rws</strong><hr></blockquote>
Even god doesn't have perfect spelling.
- God
This message has been brought to you by the Diety institute®, 166643 Heaven Dr.