Apple executives defend crowdsourced data collection in building new features
In an interview focusing on the issue of access to users' location data, Apple executives defended the concept of collecting anonymous data to provide valuable new services in the future.
The company's official question and answer response to location services issues noted that Apple was collecting anonymous user location data to build an improved traffic database that would power a new service related to maps "in the next couple years."
In an interview conducted by Ina Fried of the Wall Street Journal, Apple's chief executive Steve Jobs was asked whether he thought that companies like Apple "need to let people know specifically what you guys are doing with the information and choose whether to participate in these commercial projects, or do you think Apple and others should have fairly broad use of anonymized data."
Jobs responded, "If people don?t want to participate in things, they will be able to turn location services off. Once we get a bug that we found fixed, their phone will not be collecting or contributing any crowdsourced information. But nor will it be calculating location."
However, Apple's senior vice president of worldwide marketing Phil Schiller then questioned the legitimacy of the question itself, nothing that "sometimes it helps people to understand an analogy that describes what these things are like because they are so new.
"I would think an analogy of a crowdsourced database is every time you walk into a retail store, many retailers have a clicker that counts how many people come in and out of the store. Nobody really cares about that because it is completely anonymous. It is not personal data. It is not anything to worry about. It?s not something that people feel is private because it is really not about them. It?s a coagulated total of all traffic.
"These crowdsourced databases are sort of like that. Things like that aren?t so scary when you think about them in everyday terms," Schiller said.
Big Brother bears gifts
That's an apt analogy, because Apple already conducts anonymized data mining of foot traffic in its retail stores as part of an effort to improve how products are presented and how features such as Genius Bars and store cash registers are located. Nearly every retailer does the same thing.
On the web, Google and other companies regularly introduce products that have benignly ulterior purposes. For example, Google operated a Goog411 service that provided free, automated answers to callers' questions over the phone. Those calls were actually used to record realistic speaking voices in natural settings, data Google used to enhance its voice recognition algorithms.
Similarly, Google's reCaptcha project (originating in the School of Computer Science at Carnegie Mellon University) is used to provide a free security service for web publishers that challenges users to type the correct captcha as it appears to prove they are a real person. However, the words displayed by the system are taken from Google Books and the Internet Archive sources to double check the automated OCR work in correctly identifying scanned text.
Traffic will be the only new leak today, thanks
Apple's efforts to collect anonymous information from millions of devices to improve the accuracy of location lookups or to power new services (like traffic) are the same thing, its executives maintain.
When asked what other uses the company may make of collectively culled data, Jobs said only that "we mentioned the traffic service and I think that is all we are going to mention at this point in time before we have something to announce."
Pressed further about other the possibility of crowdsourced data being used for other purposes, Jobs said "we are building a crowdsourced database based on traffic and that is what we are saying."
The company's official question and answer response to location services issues noted that Apple was collecting anonymous user location data to build an improved traffic database that would power a new service related to maps "in the next couple years."
In an interview conducted by Ina Fried of the Wall Street Journal, Apple's chief executive Steve Jobs was asked whether he thought that companies like Apple "need to let people know specifically what you guys are doing with the information and choose whether to participate in these commercial projects, or do you think Apple and others should have fairly broad use of anonymized data."
Jobs responded, "If people don?t want to participate in things, they will be able to turn location services off. Once we get a bug that we found fixed, their phone will not be collecting or contributing any crowdsourced information. But nor will it be calculating location."
However, Apple's senior vice president of worldwide marketing Phil Schiller then questioned the legitimacy of the question itself, nothing that "sometimes it helps people to understand an analogy that describes what these things are like because they are so new.
"I would think an analogy of a crowdsourced database is every time you walk into a retail store, many retailers have a clicker that counts how many people come in and out of the store. Nobody really cares about that because it is completely anonymous. It is not personal data. It is not anything to worry about. It?s not something that people feel is private because it is really not about them. It?s a coagulated total of all traffic.
"These crowdsourced databases are sort of like that. Things like that aren?t so scary when you think about them in everyday terms," Schiller said.
Big Brother bears gifts
That's an apt analogy, because Apple already conducts anonymized data mining of foot traffic in its retail stores as part of an effort to improve how products are presented and how features such as Genius Bars and store cash registers are located. Nearly every retailer does the same thing.
On the web, Google and other companies regularly introduce products that have benignly ulterior purposes. For example, Google operated a Goog411 service that provided free, automated answers to callers' questions over the phone. Those calls were actually used to record realistic speaking voices in natural settings, data Google used to enhance its voice recognition algorithms.
Similarly, Google's reCaptcha project (originating in the School of Computer Science at Carnegie Mellon University) is used to provide a free security service for web publishers that challenges users to type the correct captcha as it appears to prove they are a real person. However, the words displayed by the system are taken from Google Books and the Internet Archive sources to double check the automated OCR work in correctly identifying scanned text.
Traffic will be the only new leak today, thanks
Apple's efforts to collect anonymous information from millions of devices to improve the accuracy of location lookups or to power new services (like traffic) are the same thing, its executives maintain.
When asked what other uses the company may make of collectively culled data, Jobs said only that "we mentioned the traffic service and I think that is all we are going to mention at this point in time before we have something to announce."
Pressed further about other the possibility of crowdsourced data being used for other purposes, Jobs said "we are building a crowdsourced database based on traffic and that is what we are saying."
Comments
Jobs said "we are building a crowdsourced database based on traffic and that is what we are saying."
So there.
The good thing that will probably come from this is we'll all be a bit more careful about reading what we agree to. Apple, Google, Microsoft nor TomTom have nefarious plans to follow me as a person, nor Anonymouse, Solipcism, MStone or others. We're simply marketing statistics to them.
But I don't know if I'd be as trusting of some of the smaller players that we aren't as familiar with such as some of the app developers. I'm certainly going to be more cautious about permissions requested by some apps, and question some for why they need them. If it doesn't make sense, I just won't use the app. There's always dozens of other options in both the AppStore and Android Market.
Jobs responded, "If people don?t want to participate in things, they will be able to turn location services off. Once we get a bug that we found fixed, their phone will not be collecting or contributing any crowdsourced information. But nor will it be calculating location."
Sounds like the next iOS version will have an option in Settings » Location Services that will specifically enable/disable this function.
Sounds like the next iOS version will have an option in Settings » Location Services that will specifically enable/disable this function.
Really? The way I read that comment, it seems like it will stay the same as it is now.
In other words isn't he just saying that you can turn off location services to stop the data collection, but then you won't have location services. Just like it is now (except for the bug).
Really? The way I read that comment, it seems like it will stay the same as it is now.
In other words isn't he just saying that you can turn off location services to stop the data collection, but then you won't have location services. Just like it is now (except for the bug).
Maybe you’re right, maybe they’ll make it an all or nothing thing so users that want any Location Services will help collect for their crowdsource DB.
edit: This interview by Ina Fried indicates what you said is dead on.
In an interview focusing on the issue of access to users' location data, Apple executives defended the concept of collecting anonymous data to provide valuable new services in the future. ...
Jobs responded, "If people don?t want to participate in things, they will be able to turn location services off. Once we get a bug that we found fixed, their phone will not be collecting or contributing any crowdsourced information. But nor will it be calculating location."
...
"I would think an analogy of a crowdsourced database is every time you walk into a retail store, many retailers have a clicker that counts how many people come in and out of the store. Nobody really cares about that because it is completely anonymous. It is not personal data. It is not anything to worry about. It?s not something that people feel is private because it is really not about them. It?s a coagulated total of all traffic. ][/url][/c]
Um... no. that's not crowdsourcing. In crowdsourcing, you INVITE people to participate knowingly. It's not just the fact that you used a "crowd" as the "source" of your booty. By Jobs' definition, if I set fire to a group of people to warm myself up, I've crowdsourced my heating. Taking advantage of people without their knowledge, even if benign in intent, is NOT crowdsourcing.
Better bring in a front end loader - Apple's pile of bullshit is bigger then expected.
Too bad you're already FOS, otherwise we could load you up with some it!
AT&T is the worst freely giving government agencies access to all its users information. I trust Apple before the government.
Lots of companies keep records without telling people. Take for instance, CarFax reports. Whenever your car gets services or in a major accident, it is typed in some data base. Companies like Car Fax utilize those data bases.
When you subscribe to a magazine, without your permission, your name, address, and phone number are sold to third parties.
Um... no. that's not crowdsourcing. In crowdsourcing, you INVITE people to participate knowingly. It's not just the fact that you used a "crowd" as the "source" of your booty. By Jobs' definition, if I set fire to a group of people to warm myself up, I've crowdsourced my heating. Taking advantage of people without their knowledge, even if benign in intent, is NOT crowdsourcing.
I honestly don't get why Apple is being grilled here. Cell phone carriers actually do track and record location data. They are required to by law, and freely give it to government agencies. A german polictican recently sued to have his information released. Boingboing posted the logs here.
AT&T is the worst freely giving government agencies access to all its users information. I trust Apple before the government.
Yes, everyone has become such a crybaby these days. People have become chronic and compulsive complainers.
If one does not wish to be tracked, I suggest they give using a cell phone anyway! Law Enforcement can track you if they wanted to.
Every time you upload a picture in Facebook with your smartphone the gps metadata can probably be downloaded....
It would have been dumb for apple or google to knowingly track your location with identifiable information then transmit it and store it in a central database. The legal liability and the PR nightmare are just not worth it!
I was never concerned with this big "discovery"
If one does not wish to be tracked, I suggest they give using a cell phone anyway! Law Enforcement can track you if they wanted to.
Or you could grow a pair and work to have these things changed.
Or you could grow a pair and work to have these things changed.
If the data is there it can be tracked, plain and simple! Your cell phone communicates with cell towers and in many cases GPS and the coordinates can be measured. Its the nature of the beast. You can make it harder for law enforcement or others to use it, but you can never make it go away even if you grew a pair the size of bowling balls.
OMG Google published the precise location of every Android user on the Internets in a massive display of "crowd source gathered" location data.
Is it still worth 'oohing and aahing' over?
Or you could grow a pair and work to have these things changed.
Why don't you grow a pair and do something? Really! It's folks like you that want to be ultra-connected to everything on the grid, yet turn around and behave like a crybaby when you find out that same technology that lets you have the world at your fingertips can also (shock) be theoretically used against you!
Apple did nothing wrong. If anything, they should be acknowledged for trying to improve everyone's online experience by making things work faster.
Reality check: unless you live in some hole in the ground, up in the mountains, you are being tracked in so many other ways. If you think Apple is doing such a horrible thing, cancel your iPhone contract (assuming you even own one), quit your whining and move on with your life in a non-trackable way.
Geez, the amount of complainers on this subject is staggering!
Why don't you grow a pair and do something? Really! It's folks like you that want to be ultra-connected to everything on the grid, yet turn around and behave like a crybaby when you find out that same technology that lets you have the world at your fingertips can also (shock) be theoretically used against you!
Apple did nothing wrong. If anything, they should be acknowledged for trying to improve everyone's online experience by making things work faster.
Reality check: unless you live in some hole in the ground, up in the mountains, you are being tracked in so many other ways. If you think Apple is doing such a horrible thing, cancel your iPhone contract (assuming you even own one), quit your whining and move on with your life in a non-trackable way.
Geez, the amount of complainers on this subject is staggering!
I don't think you understand the situation clearly.
Apple isn't going to be let off the hook with a quick 'oops it's a bug' crap. They lied. Now they are playing a losing hand with this PR bullshit that nobody believes.
This isn't going away. It's only getting started.
If anyone here has tested any of the recent Garmin GPS units outdoors with great line of sight on a completely clear day, you'll know that the iPhone is nothing short of phenomenal when it comes to GPS location acquisition. Phenomenal. The iPhone will often resolve in under 10 seconds, and there are plenty of times that the newest Garmin units will take 3-4 minutes or longer to get a fix.
Apple has made it clear that they are transmitting, using, sharing, and storing your location data in the freaking terms of service you agreed to. You don't like it? Then, like the plague, avoid the OTHER TOS you've been accepting through the years from other companies, because you'll be even more ticked off when you find out what THOSE companies are revealing in the fine print.
Apple is sending the information anonymously, using it to improve services and innovate products, and they're doing it in a way that is legal, ethical, straightforward, and valuable to everyone using the service or product. Seriously, the only people still whining about this are probably those that were so quick to call Apple nasty names and threaten legal action over something they knew NOTHING about. Get over it, whiners. If you think you're safer on ANY cellphone, or ANY other smartphone, then I dare you to switch.
But in my opinion, trusting the likes of Google with your sensitive personal information in order to avoid Apple's "Big-Brother" scariness sounds about as wise to me as jumping out of a speeding jeep in the Serengeti to outrun a pride of hungry lionesses on foot.
While you're bleeding.
With a T-Bone tied around your neck.
You think that's scary...just wait until they catch you.