It's one thing to troll for (badly needed) attention. It's another thing completely when people are losing their lives in a highly unfortunate incident and to make flippant jokes about the situation...
He's not trolling and it's not a flippant joke. He was pointing out the customary lazy journalistic shorthand that makes "Apple" and "Foxconn" virtually synonymous, despite the fact that Foxconn assembles devices for virtually every consumer electronics company out there. It's simply a fact that problems at Foxconn are generally treated as problems for Apple, again despite Foxconn's relationship with dozens of other companies.
The problem seems to be that you originally took isaidso's post as literal, and once you had it pointed out it was sarcasm just switched to "flippant joke" to avoid backing off.
I must say in my opinion if as little as 1 life is lost, that is way to much of a price to pay, just so we can play with are new shiny little toys, but I understand thing like this happen and there is notting we can do, but feel sorry for their families and the loss of life. Sad Very Sad.
Hmmmm... I'd like to think that maybe, just maybe, that shiny new toy will help to save lives in the future.
If you cared about the people, you wouldn't buy the products to being with. China has deplorable working conditions. Humans are treated worse then dirt. The slightly cheaper price you pay comes at the cost of others misery.
I think a lot of criticism of China comes from a desire to deflect from that fact that the people we vote for are among the most despicable murderers on the planet.
He's not trolling and it's not a flippant joke. He was pointing out the customary lazy journalistic shorthand that makes "Apple" and "Foxconn" virtually synonymous, despite the fact that Foxconn assembles devices for virtually every consumer electronics company out there. It's simply a fact that problems at Foxconn are generally treated as problems for Apple, again despite Foxconn's relationship with dozens of other companies.
The problem seems to be that you originally took isaidso's post as literal, and once you had it pointed out it was sarcasm just switched to "flippant joke" to avoid backing off.
Thank you addabox. You hit it right on the nose.
My sarcasm (while perhaps, ill timed given the greater issue of the tragedy for these affected workers) is out of frustration where I think that sites like AI and other Apple fan sites, always mention Foxconn and Apple just as you have described above. I expect more from Apple sites. Leave the "frame slanting" for CNBC and the others.
If you cared about the people, you wouldn't buy the products to being with. China has deplorable working conditions. Humans are treated worse then dirt. The slightly cheaper price you pay comes at the cost of others misery.
This is at best a huge over-generalisation. China is a vast country and far from homogenous.
We are talking about Foxconn in particular, which is a well run fairly decent place to work with better conditions than some American factories.
Why not generalise just a tiny bit further and say that humans are destroying the planet with our very existence (because we are if you want to step back that far). The trouble with gross generalisations like this is that they are so general they become empty of meaning. You also can't paint an entire country and it's people the way you do without being somewhat of a bigot.
I've worked in many factories in my youth under absolutely appalling conditions and they were not located in China. I've also seen video tours of Foxconn and interviews with the people that work there, both from the company itself and from independent journalists and I don't see any huge problems with their working conditions per se.
I think a lot of criticism of China comes from a desire to deflect from that fact that the people we vote for are among the most despicable murderers on the planet.
My sarcasm (while perhaps, ill timed given the greater issue of the tragedy for these affected workers) is out of frustration where I think that sites like AI and other Apple fan sites, always mention Foxconn and Apple just as you have described above. I expect more from Apple sites. Leave the "frame slanting" for CNBC and the others.
Of course AI is going to say something like "Apple partner Foxconn." If they said "Foxconn, a mega-firm that makes stuff for dozens of companies you don't care about" it would be hard to understand why it's being mentioned in this forum. And in this case it appears that the explosion was at a building actually making iPads. It's relevant Apple news. Either because of the working conditions or because it may affect iPad supply or because of the PR spillover.
I do not desire to deflect. I know our leaders stink. They essentially bankrupted our Country by allowing businesses to move operations to China and have the taxpayers foot the bill. That is another topic though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PXT
I think a lot of criticism of China comes from a desire to deflect from that fact that the people we vote for are among the most despicable murderers on the planet.
When I criticize China it has nothing to do with the people. It is a statement against the government. People there are a commodity. That is not a generalization. China doesn't believe in what we as a Country believe. In China the government thinks it is OK to kill people for exercising expression. As such, your bigot comment is out of line.
China's system is fine if that is what Chinese people want, but our government shouldn't be forcing Americans to compete with a system that undervalues our own values.
Further, I have been to China. I worked in the clothing industry for many years. One of my many jobs was to inspect factories to check the quality of the output. You are correct. In the US, you can find some horrible factories (at least in the clothing manufacturing industry). They are all operating in violation of pretty much every US labor law. Ironically, the workers in these factories are all illegal immigrants who came here for better conditions.
In the companies defense, these types of factories here are forced to use illegal workers to compete with the foreign factories because illegal workers are the the only ones desperate enough to be treated so miserably by being paid so little. For example, one factory I had the pleasure of inspecting hired illegal Chinese immigrants. They worked over twelve hours days, six days a week, with a half hour break, for a fixed daily rate. The workers had no health care coverage, and the factories did away with standard safety equipment. The Company would be out of business if it tried to pay somebody minimum wage and compete with an actual Chinese Company. Sadly enough the workers in these factories would say this type of arrangement was better then the actual Chinese factories, which unfortunately I know to be true.
When was the last time you heard of employees in a major US factory committing suicide in large numbers? Enough said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
This is at best a huge over-generalisation. China is a vast country and far from homogenous.
We are talking about Foxconn in particular, which is a well run fairly decent place to work with better conditions than some American factories.
Why not generalise just a tiny bit further and say that humans are destroying the planet with our very existence (because we are if you want to step back that far). The trouble with gross generalisations like this is that they are so general they become empty of meaning. You also can't paint an entire country and it's people the way you do without being somewhat of a bigot.
I've worked in many factories in my youth under absolutely appalling conditions and they were not located in China. I've also seen video tours of Foxconn and interviews with the people that work there, both from the company itself and from independent journalists and I don't see any huge problems with their working conditions per se.
Dude, seriously? There is this really cool thing called an "internet search engine" that can produce some pretty interesting results. For instance, I was able to dig up this customer list in less than 15 seconds:
Clients
Foxconn makes consumer electronics for a number of well-known companies, including:
Apple Inc. (United States)[19][5][20]
Acer Inc. (Taiwan)
Amazon.com (United States)
Asus (Taiwan)
Intel (United States)
Cisco (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)[21][20]
Dell (United States)
Nintendo (Japan)
Nokia (Finland)[19]
Microsoft (United States)
Sony (Japan)
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)[20]
Samsung (Korea)
Vizio (United States)
Unfrigginbelievable...
A most welcome and humane rejoinder to a very serious lack of human understanding. Thank you. Also a pretty good crack in its own right.
When I criticize China it has nothing to do with the people. It is a statement against the government. People there are a commodity. That is not a generalization. China doesn't believe in what we as a Country believe. In China the government thinks it is OK to kill people for exercising expression. As such, your bigot comment is out of line.
China's system is fine if that is what Chinese people want, but our government shouldn't be forcing Americans to compete with a system that undervalues our own values.
Further, I have been to China. I worked in the clothing industry for many years. One of my many jobs was to inspect factories to check the quality of the output. You are correct. In the US, you can find some horrible factories (at least in the clothing manufacturing industry). They are all operating in violation of pretty much every US labor law. Ironically, the workers in these factories are all illegal immigrants who came here for better conditions.
In the companies defense, these types of factories here are forced to use illegal workers to compete with the foreign factories because illegal workers are the the only ones desperate enough to be treated so miserably by being paid so little. For example, one factory I had the pleasure of inspecting hired illegal Chinese immigrants. They worked over twelve hours days, six days a week, with a half hour break, for a fixed daily rate. The workers had no health care coverage, and the factories did away with standard safety equipment. The Company would be out of business if it tried to pay somebody minimum wage and compete with an actual Chinese Company. Sadly enough the workers in these factories would say this type of arrangement was better then the actual Chinese factories, which unfortunately I know to be true.
When was the last time you heard of employees in a major US factory committing suicide in large numbers? Enough said.
Sorry. I appreciate your attempt to be logical and make a defence of your earlier statements but this just reads even *more* like plain old bigotry to me.
"China does not believe in what we as a country believe?" What hubris! What gall!
Aside from being meaningless to talk about "what China believes" your assuming here that:
- I'm an American
- "we" are all Americans
- the American way is somehow better than China's
(all incorrect BTW)
The sentiments are in between the lines of everything you write. I think you'd be good to take some time off in the wilderness and seriously examine some of the concepts that underlie your thoughts here. Your taking lots for granted here at best.
In reference to my comments about having worked in some factories that have appalling conditions and those factories not being in China ... again you assume I'm talking about the US (I'm not), and assume further that I'm talking about illegal immigrants or some such (I'm not).
I'm talking about middle class white people working in factories in "western countries" (Europe and Canada are my personal examples), and you don't have to go far to find said conditions. If you think that all countries outside of China (and a few illegal companies in the US) have great working conditions then you are mistaken.
Factory work is mind-numbingly dull and repetitious. Most don't do it unless they have no other option and are the classic "downtrodden" of a particular society. It's not work that anyone on this forum is likely to have much experience at because it's the work the "poor" do and almost everyone here is guaranteed to have come from an upper middle class background at minimum.
Americans don't have the market cornered on "values," other countries had them before America was a glint in the colonialists eyes. That kind of pig-headedness is why Americans are often reviled around the world. America's "values" are also not uniformly admired around the world, neither are they some kind of gold standard to be adhered to.
For the record, I live in Canada (the "other" America just to your north), and a lot of us up here think a lot of your core American "values" are pretty twisted in fact. We have a better record on Human Rights than you do, and a better constitution that provides for much more freedoms than you Americans enjoy. We have a stronger, fairer economy, better working conditions in our factories and a better standard of living all around.
No one knows these things of course because, well .. it's Canada. We don't go around the world pretending like we own it, lording it over everyone else or acting as if we are the only one's that matter or have any idea what "values" are.
PS - I can't believe that you brought up the suicide dodge. "suicide in large numbers?" your exaggerations speak for themselves.
Sorry. I appreciate your attempt to be logical and make a defence of your earlier statements but this just reads even *more* like plain old bigotry to me.
"China does not believe in what we as a country believe?" What hubris! What gall!
Aside from being meaningless to talk about "what China believes" your assuming here that:
- I'm an American
- "we" are all Americans
- the American way is somehow better than China's
(all incorrect BTW)
The sentiments are in between the lines of everything you write. I think you'd be good to take some time off in the wilderness and seriously examine some of the concepts that underlie your thoughts here. Your taking lots for granted here at best.
In reference to my comments about having worked in some factories that have appalling conditions and those factories not being in China ... again you assume I'm talking about the US (I'm not), and assume further that I'm talking about illegal immigrants or some such (I'm not).
I'm talking about middle class white people working in factories in "western countries" (Europe and Canada are my personal examples), and you don't have to go far to find said conditions. If you think that all countries outside of China (and a few illegal companies in the US) have great working conditions then you are mistaken.
Factory work is mind-numbingly dull and repetitious. Most don't do it unless they have no other option and are the classic "downtrodden" of a particular society. It's not work that anyone on this forum is likely to have much experience at because it's the work the "poor" do and almost everyone here is guaranteed to have come from an upper middle class background at minimum.
Americans don't have the market cornered on "values," other countries had them before America was a glint in the colonialists eyes. That kind of pig-headedness is why Americans are often reviled around the world. America's "values" are also not uniformly admired around the world, neither are they some kind of gold standard to be adhered to.
For the record, I live in Canada (the "other" America just to your north), and a lot of us up here think a lot of your core American "values" are pretty twisted in fact. We have a better record on Human Rights than you do, and a better constitution that provides for much more freedoms than you Americans enjoy. We have a stronger, fairer economy, better working conditions in our factories and a better standard of living all around.
No one knows these things of course because, well .. it's Canada. We don't go around the world pretending like we own it, lording it over everyone else or acting as if we are the only one's that matter or have any idea what "values" are.
PS - I can't believe that you brought up the suicide dodge. "suicide in large numbers?" your exaggerations speak for themselves.
Could everyone cut out this bizarre exchange of views on China and "the Chinese" and get back to the impact of the iPad2 plant tragedy...
When I criticize China it has nothing to do with the people. It is a statement against the government. People there are a commodity. That is not a generalization. China doesn't believe in what we as a Country believe. In China the government thinks it is OK to kill people for exercising expression. As such, your bigot comment is out of line.
China's system is fine if that is what Chinese people want, but our government shouldn't be forcing Americans to compete with a system that undervalues our own values.
....
This is off topic, hopefully it won't start a flame war, but you've come to the wrong site Bud. You presume we don't have China values... we'll, we're getting there fast... unfortunately IMO.
Read yesterdays comments about Apple store employees suggesting a union... whew... a very fine example of people thinking of workers as commodities. Sad really. We'll see how long europe and australia can hold out against such crass mentality.
Sorry. I appreciate your attempt to be logical and make a defence of your earlier statements but this just reads even *more* like plain old bigotry to me.
I'm talking about middle class white people working in factories in "western countries" (Europe and Canada are my personal examples), and you don't have to go far to find said conditions. If you think that all countries outside of China (and a few illegal companies in the US) have great working conditions then you are mistaken.
Factory work is mind-numbingly dull and repetitious. Most don't do it unless they have no other option and are the classic "downtrodden" of a particular society. It's not work that anyone on this forum is likely to have much experience at because it's the work the "poor" do and almost everyone here is guaranteed to have come from an upper middle class background at minimum.
Elsewhere this is reported as a fire and possible explosion. People died, so it is a tragic event but don't dress it up. Apple insider is becoming a virtual gutter press. Next article will be 'steve has an affair with his housemaid' etc
Hmmmm... I'd like to think that maybe, just maybe, that shiny new toy will help to save lives in the future.
Or even right now.
Sometimes we fail to realize that rich people in one part of the world who can afford to buy shiny little gadgets that are manufactured by people in another part of the world are transferring wealth (to one degree or another) to those doing the manufacturing...and this wealth is used to sustain life for those doing the the manufacturing.
It's not as obvious or blatant as a person being injured or dying in a tragic explosion like this. But it is still a reality.
Actually I don't know what this has to do with being Chinese specifically. Industrial accidents happen wherever there is a big operation. Human beings aren't perfect, and that's a property of the human mind not the Chinese mind only.
Comments
It's one thing to troll for (badly needed) attention. It's another thing completely when people are losing their lives in a highly unfortunate incident and to make flippant jokes about the situation...
He's not trolling and it's not a flippant joke. He was pointing out the customary lazy journalistic shorthand that makes "Apple" and "Foxconn" virtually synonymous, despite the fact that Foxconn assembles devices for virtually every consumer electronics company out there. It's simply a fact that problems at Foxconn are generally treated as problems for Apple, again despite Foxconn's relationship with dozens of other companies.
The problem seems to be that you originally took isaidso's post as literal, and once you had it pointed out it was sarcasm just switched to "flippant joke" to avoid backing off.
I must say in my opinion if as little as 1 life is lost, that is way to much of a price to pay, just so we can play with are new shiny little toys, but I understand thing like this happen and there is notting we can do, but feel sorry for their families and the loss of life. Sad Very Sad.
Hmmmm... I'd like to think that maybe, just maybe, that shiny new toy will help to save lives in the future.
If you cared about the people, you wouldn't buy the products to being with. China has deplorable working conditions. Humans are treated worse then dirt. The slightly cheaper price you pay comes at the cost of others misery.
I think a lot of criticism of China comes from a desire to deflect from that fact that the people we vote for are among the most despicable murderers on the planet.
Let's deal with the plank in our own eye first.
He's not trolling and it's not a flippant joke. He was pointing out the customary lazy journalistic shorthand that makes "Apple" and "Foxconn" virtually synonymous, despite the fact that Foxconn assembles devices for virtually every consumer electronics company out there. It's simply a fact that problems at Foxconn are generally treated as problems for Apple, again despite Foxconn's relationship with dozens of other companies.
The problem seems to be that you originally took isaidso's post as literal, and once you had it pointed out it was sarcasm just switched to "flippant joke" to avoid backing off.
Thank you addabox. You hit it right on the nose.
My sarcasm (while perhaps, ill timed given the greater issue of the tragedy for these affected workers) is out of frustration where I think that sites like AI and other Apple fan sites, always mention Foxconn and Apple just as you have described above. I expect more from Apple sites. Leave the "frame slanting" for CNBC and the others.
If you cared about the people, you wouldn't buy the products to being with. China has deplorable working conditions. Humans are treated worse then dirt. The slightly cheaper price you pay comes at the cost of others misery.
This is at best a huge over-generalisation. China is a vast country and far from homogenous.
We are talking about Foxconn in particular, which is a well run fairly decent place to work with better conditions than some American factories.
Why not generalise just a tiny bit further and say that humans are destroying the planet with our very existence (because we are if you want to step back that far). The trouble with gross generalisations like this is that they are so general they become empty of meaning. You also can't paint an entire country and it's people the way you do without being somewhat of a bigot.
I've worked in many factories in my youth under absolutely appalling conditions and they were not located in China. I've also seen video tours of Foxconn and interviews with the people that work there, both from the company itself and from independent journalists and I don't see any huge problems with their working conditions per se.
I think a lot of criticism of China comes from a desire to deflect from that fact that the people we vote for are among the most despicable murderers on the planet.
Let's deal with the plank in our own eye first.
Well said.
Thank you addabox. You hit it right on the nose.
My sarcasm (while perhaps, ill timed given the greater issue of the tragedy for these affected workers) is out of frustration where I think that sites like AI and other Apple fan sites, always mention Foxconn and Apple just as you have described above. I expect more from Apple sites. Leave the "frame slanting" for CNBC and the others.
Of course AI is going to say something like "Apple partner Foxconn." If they said "Foxconn, a mega-firm that makes stuff for dozens of companies you don't care about" it would be hard to understand why it's being mentioned in this forum. And in this case it appears that the explosion was at a building actually making iPads. It's relevant Apple news. Either because of the working conditions or because it may affect iPad supply or because of the PR spillover.
Well said.
You're kidding, right?
I think a lot of criticism of China comes from a desire to deflect from that fact that the people we vote for are among the most despicable murderers on the planet.
Let's deal with the plank in our own eye first.
China's system is fine if that is what Chinese people want, but our government shouldn't be forcing Americans to compete with a system that undervalues our own values.
Further, I have been to China. I worked in the clothing industry for many years. One of my many jobs was to inspect factories to check the quality of the output. You are correct. In the US, you can find some horrible factories (at least in the clothing manufacturing industry). They are all operating in violation of pretty much every US labor law. Ironically, the workers in these factories are all illegal immigrants who came here for better conditions.
In the companies defense, these types of factories here are forced to use illegal workers to compete with the foreign factories because illegal workers are the the only ones desperate enough to be treated so miserably by being paid so little. For example, one factory I had the pleasure of inspecting hired illegal Chinese immigrants. They worked over twelve hours days, six days a week, with a half hour break, for a fixed daily rate. The workers had no health care coverage, and the factories did away with standard safety equipment. The Company would be out of business if it tried to pay somebody minimum wage and compete with an actual Chinese Company. Sadly enough the workers in these factories would say this type of arrangement was better then the actual Chinese factories, which unfortunately I know to be true.
When was the last time you heard of employees in a major US factory committing suicide in large numbers? Enough said.
This is at best a huge over-generalisation. China is a vast country and far from homogenous.
We are talking about Foxconn in particular, which is a well run fairly decent place to work with better conditions than some American factories.
Why not generalise just a tiny bit further and say that humans are destroying the planet with our very existence (because we are if you want to step back that far). The trouble with gross generalisations like this is that they are so general they become empty of meaning. You also can't paint an entire country and it's people the way you do without being somewhat of a bigot.
I've worked in many factories in my youth under absolutely appalling conditions and they were not located in China. I've also seen video tours of Foxconn and interviews with the people that work there, both from the company itself and from independent journalists and I don't see any huge problems with their working conditions per se.
Dude, seriously? There is this really cool thing called an "internet search engine" that can produce some pretty interesting results. For instance, I was able to dig up this customer list in less than 15 seconds:
Clients
Foxconn makes consumer electronics for a number of well-known companies, including:
Apple Inc. (United States)[19][5][20]
Acer Inc. (Taiwan)
Amazon.com (United States)
Asus (Taiwan)
Intel (United States)
Cisco (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)[21][20]
Dell (United States)
Nintendo (Japan)
Nokia (Finland)[19]
Microsoft (United States)
Sony (Japan)
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)[20]
Samsung (Korea)
Vizio (United States)
Unfrigginbelievable...
A most welcome and humane rejoinder to a very serious lack of human understanding. Thank you. Also a pretty good crack in its own right.
When I criticize China it has nothing to do with the people. It is a statement against the government. People there are a commodity. That is not a generalization. China doesn't believe in what we as a Country believe. In China the government thinks it is OK to kill people for exercising expression. As such, your bigot comment is out of line.
China's system is fine if that is what Chinese people want, but our government shouldn't be forcing Americans to compete with a system that undervalues our own values.
Further, I have been to China. I worked in the clothing industry for many years. One of my many jobs was to inspect factories to check the quality of the output. You are correct. In the US, you can find some horrible factories (at least in the clothing manufacturing industry). They are all operating in violation of pretty much every US labor law. Ironically, the workers in these factories are all illegal immigrants who came here for better conditions.
In the companies defense, these types of factories here are forced to use illegal workers to compete with the foreign factories because illegal workers are the the only ones desperate enough to be treated so miserably by being paid so little. For example, one factory I had the pleasure of inspecting hired illegal Chinese immigrants. They worked over twelve hours days, six days a week, with a half hour break, for a fixed daily rate. The workers had no health care coverage, and the factories did away with standard safety equipment. The Company would be out of business if it tried to pay somebody minimum wage and compete with an actual Chinese Company. Sadly enough the workers in these factories would say this type of arrangement was better then the actual Chinese factories, which unfortunately I know to be true.
When was the last time you heard of employees in a major US factory committing suicide in large numbers? Enough said.
Sorry. I appreciate your attempt to be logical and make a defence of your earlier statements but this just reads even *more* like plain old bigotry to me.
"China does not believe in what we as a country believe?" What hubris! What gall!
Aside from being meaningless to talk about "what China believes" your assuming here that:
- I'm an American
- "we" are all Americans
- the American way is somehow better than China's
(all incorrect BTW)
The sentiments are in between the lines of everything you write. I think you'd be good to take some time off in the wilderness and seriously examine some of the concepts that underlie your thoughts here. Your taking lots for granted here at best.
In reference to my comments about having worked in some factories that have appalling conditions and those factories not being in China ... again you assume I'm talking about the US (I'm not), and assume further that I'm talking about illegal immigrants or some such (I'm not).
I'm talking about middle class white people working in factories in "western countries" (Europe and Canada are my personal examples), and you don't have to go far to find said conditions. If you think that all countries outside of China (and a few illegal companies in the US) have great working conditions then you are mistaken.
Factory work is mind-numbingly dull and repetitious. Most don't do it unless they have no other option and are the classic "downtrodden" of a particular society. It's not work that anyone on this forum is likely to have much experience at because it's the work the "poor" do and almost everyone here is guaranteed to have come from an upper middle class background at minimum.
Americans don't have the market cornered on "values," other countries had them before America was a glint in the colonialists eyes. That kind of pig-headedness is why Americans are often reviled around the world. America's "values" are also not uniformly admired around the world, neither are they some kind of gold standard to be adhered to.
For the record, I live in Canada (the "other" America just to your north), and a lot of us up here think a lot of your core American "values" are pretty twisted in fact. We have a better record on Human Rights than you do, and a better constitution that provides for much more freedoms than you Americans enjoy. We have a stronger, fairer economy, better working conditions in our factories and a better standard of living all around.
No one knows these things of course because, well .. it's Canada. We don't go around the world pretending like we own it, lording it over everyone else or acting as if we are the only one's that matter or have any idea what "values" are.
PS - I can't believe that you brought up the suicide dodge. "suicide in large numbers?" your exaggerations speak for themselves.
Sorry. I appreciate your attempt to be logical and make a defence of your earlier statements but this just reads even *more* like plain old bigotry to me.
"China does not believe in what we as a country believe?" What hubris! What gall!
Aside from being meaningless to talk about "what China believes" your assuming here that:
- I'm an American
- "we" are all Americans
- the American way is somehow better than China's
(all incorrect BTW)
The sentiments are in between the lines of everything you write. I think you'd be good to take some time off in the wilderness and seriously examine some of the concepts that underlie your thoughts here. Your taking lots for granted here at best.
In reference to my comments about having worked in some factories that have appalling conditions and those factories not being in China ... again you assume I'm talking about the US (I'm not), and assume further that I'm talking about illegal immigrants or some such (I'm not).
I'm talking about middle class white people working in factories in "western countries" (Europe and Canada are my personal examples), and you don't have to go far to find said conditions. If you think that all countries outside of China (and a few illegal companies in the US) have great working conditions then you are mistaken.
Factory work is mind-numbingly dull and repetitious. Most don't do it unless they have no other option and are the classic "downtrodden" of a particular society. It's not work that anyone on this forum is likely to have much experience at because it's the work the "poor" do and almost everyone here is guaranteed to have come from an upper middle class background at minimum.
Americans don't have the market cornered on "values," other countries had them before America was a glint in the colonialists eyes. That kind of pig-headedness is why Americans are often reviled around the world. America's "values" are also not uniformly admired around the world, neither are they some kind of gold standard to be adhered to.
For the record, I live in Canada (the "other" America just to your north), and a lot of us up here think a lot of your core American "values" are pretty twisted in fact. We have a better record on Human Rights than you do, and a better constitution that provides for much more freedoms than you Americans enjoy. We have a stronger, fairer economy, better working conditions in our factories and a better standard of living all around.
No one knows these things of course because, well .. it's Canada. We don't go around the world pretending like we own it, lording it over everyone else or acting as if we are the only one's that matter or have any idea what "values" are.
PS - I can't believe that you brought up the suicide dodge. "suicide in large numbers?" your exaggerations speak for themselves.
Could everyone cut out this bizarre exchange of views on China and "the Chinese" and get back to the impact of the iPad2 plant tragedy...
When I criticize China it has nothing to do with the people. It is a statement against the government. People there are a commodity. That is not a generalization. China doesn't believe in what we as a Country believe. In China the government thinks it is OK to kill people for exercising expression. As such, your bigot comment is out of line.
China's system is fine if that is what Chinese people want, but our government shouldn't be forcing Americans to compete with a system that undervalues our own values.
....
This is off topic, hopefully it won't start a flame war, but you've come to the wrong site Bud. You presume we don't have China values... we'll, we're getting there fast... unfortunately IMO.
Read yesterdays comments about Apple store employees suggesting a union... whew... a very fine example of people thinking of workers as commodities. Sad really. We'll see how long europe and australia can hold out against such crass mentality.
Sorry. I appreciate your attempt to be logical and make a defence of your earlier statements but this just reads even *more* like plain old bigotry to me.
I'm talking about middle class white people working in factories in "western countries" (Europe and Canada are my personal examples), and you don't have to go far to find said conditions. If you think that all countries outside of China (and a few illegal companies in the US) have great working conditions then you are mistaken.
Factory work is mind-numbingly dull and repetitious. Most don't do it unless they have no other option and are the classic "downtrodden" of a particular society. It's not work that anyone on this forum is likely to have much experience at because it's the work the "poor" do and almost everyone here is guaranteed to have come from an upper middle class background at minimum.
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I think he is just naive.
Next article will be 'steve has an affair with his housemaid' etc
Steve had an affair with a household maid?!?! When did this happen?!?!
Hmmmm... I'd like to think that maybe, just maybe, that shiny new toy will help to save lives in the future.
Or even right now.
Sometimes we fail to realize that rich people in one part of the world who can afford to buy shiny little gadgets that are manufactured by people in another part of the world are transferring wealth (to one degree or another) to those doing the manufacturing...and this wealth is used to sustain life for those doing the the manufacturing.
It's not as obvious or blatant as a person being injured or dying in a tragic explosion like this. But it is still a reality.