Apple should be ashamed of themselves for associating their proud image of state-of-the-art technology with lack of safety enforced third party OEMs.
There are plenty of workers here in the US with better safety standards.
Why arent they hiring people here in America? In fact, why arent they building a factory here in America?
Oh right cost.
They are willing to cut jobs and hire unstable, safety standards dismissing third party OEMs (who jeapordize the workers lives, living conditions and health) in order to save a buck or two on their latest and greatest.
Whats even more sad is that, even after this type of event, Apple still wont budge from its Foxconn supplier because its helping them reek in the money for billions of profits.
Seems like Apple has no ethics in its business model.
Which is different from every other CE manufacturer how?
Apple should be ashamed of themselves for associating their proud image of state-of-the-art technology with lack of safety enforced third party OEMs.
There are plenty of workers here in the US with better safety standards.
Why arent they hiring people here in America? In fact, why arent they building a factory here in America?
Oh right cost.
They are willing to cut jobs and hire unstable, safety standards dismissing third party OEMs (who jeapordize the workers lives, living conditions and health) in order to save a buck or two on their latest and greatest.
Whats even more sad is that, even after this type of event, Apple still wont budge from its Foxconn supplier because its helping them reek in the money for billions of profits.
Seems like Apple has no ethics in its business model. The only "social good" that they emphasize(through marketing no less) is the recyclability of the materials that they use. They would be doing a much greater "social good" if they start bringing jobs here in the USA.
Yes, I would be willing to pay more for products that I know helps others workers in the US bring food to their families tables. Those who think otherwise should be castrated.
[QUOTE=TBell;1867440]When I criticize China it has nothing to do with the people. It is a statement against the government. People there are a commodity. That is not a generalization. China doesn't believe in what we as a Country believe. In China the government thinks it is OK to kill people for exercising expression. As such, your bigot comment is out of line.
[\\quote]
Honestly this is something our country should look into.
[quote]
China's system is fine if that is what Chinese people want, but our government shouldn't be forcing Americans to compete with a system that undervalues our own values.
[/qoute]
While something's need to be addressed protectionism isn't the answer. In many ways our coronet problems relate directly to our ability to compete. Interestingly there is a lot of talk right now about our inability graduate engineers from college. Unfortunately about half the country is a bunch of liberal elitist that expect somebody else to do the work for them.
Quote:
Further, I have been to China. I worked in the clothing industry for many years. One of my many jobs was to inspect factories to check the quality of the output. You are correct. In the US, you can find some horrible factories (at least in the clothing manufacturing industry). They are all operating in violation of pretty much every US labor law. Ironically, the workers in these factories are all illegal immigrants who came here for better conditions.
So you let it slide?
Quote:
In the companies defense, these types of factories here are forced to use illegal workers to compete with the foreign factories because illegal workers are the the only ones desperate enough to be treated so miserably by being paid so little. For example, one factory I had the pleasure of inspecting hired illegal Chinese immigrants. They worked over twelve hours days, six days a week, with a half hour break, for a fixed daily rate. The workers had no health care coverage, and the factories did away with standard safety equipment. The Company would be out of business if it tried to pay somebody minimum wage and compete with an actual Chinese Company. Sadly enough the workers in these factories would say this type of arrangement was better then the actual Chinese factories, which unfortunately I know to be true.
When was the last time you heard of employees in a major US factory committing suicide in large numbers? Enough said.
Sadly it happens but at least we don't make the mistake of blaming the company. Even the little outfit I worked for has had unfortunate suicides. One woman put a gun to her head and blew out her brains right in front of her kids, on guy hanged himself, the son of another employee hanged himself in her garage and the list goes on. Nobody blamed the company because the company wasn't there with a rope. In fact in some cases they tried to intervene, but there is really little one can do these days for the mentally I'll, the depressed or those otherwise affected.
Beyond that many accidents happen in the USA every day. However no body blames Apple. The mentality here is a bit like blaming the local electrician for a death in a copper mine on the other side of the country. It is the mentality of blaming everybody and anyone we can instead of actually ring to improve things.
On another note many here are appalled at the idea of humor in this context. That is a bit misplaced as it is a common coping mechanism used by ambulance and fire crews. I once had a discussion with a fire chief about this, they even have a term for it which escapes me now. The point is humor can be a coping mechanism for some very ugly things. Sometimes even humor doesn't cut it which is why other support mechanisms are in place. The fact is if you respond to a call where some motor cycle rider splattered himself across the front yard of several houses you are not going to have a good day, it may take days to shake it off.
That is a series of non sequiturs that ignore or misconstrue every single point that Dr. Millmoss has been making.
China's status according to the United Nations or any other international body has nothing to do with their approach to industrialization. The (obvious) fact that China's push towards industrialization comes a century or more after the Industrial Revolution doesn't tell us much one way or the other about the relative human cost of same, and China's ability to foster "green" technologies isn't what is in contention.
Thanks for saying so. I thought it might just be me. I go away from these boards for awhile and hope the level of discourse has improved at least a little by the time I come back. I can see no further justification for such unreasonable optimism.
Which is different from every other CE manufacturer how?
Apple has a higher model to live up to. It should set the example for all other manufacturers to follow. As the leader in technology and an innovator who brings out revolutionary thinking and design, they should be the model for the rest of the industry.
I'm sure if Apple paves the way, the others will follow.
Apple has a higher model to live up to. It should set the example for all other manufacturers to follow. As the leader in technology and an innovator who brings out revolutionary thinking and design, they should be the model for the rest of the industry.
I'm sure if Apple paves the way, the others will follow.
I don't honestly see why Apple's standard is different, or should be. Because they are a "cool products" company they should also be setting higher labor standards in China? Good luck with that. Foxconn alone has nearly a million employees -- by that measure at least they are far bigger than Apple. Vastly. If we've learned anything from the industrial revolution and labor history it's that no company is going to volunteer to set significantly higher wage and working standards than their competitors. It's a classic "prisoner's dilemma." If you know your game theory you won't need the significance explained. No, the only way it gets better is if the government sets higher working standards for everyone, and gives labor basic rights to organize. No foreign company can do any part of this. And the Chinese government probably won't either, unless they see the wheels starting to come off, and maybe not even then.
Apple has a higher model to live up to. It should set the example for all other manufacturers to follow. As the leader in technology and an innovator who brings out revolutionary thinking and design, they should be the model for the rest of the industry.
I'm sure if Apple paves the way, the others will follow.
Actually, Apple have set higher labour standards in China. Apple conducts annual, third-party audit of all their suppliers, and corrects problems immediately when they are found.
Let's take the underage workers' issue, for instance. Apple found that one of their suppliers in China was employing 15-year olds. It happened to be legal in that area to emply 15 year-olds for that kind of work, and it was legal according to the UN labor regulations. But it isn't acceptable to Apple, so they cut all business with the factory in question.
Fifteen years old is unacceptable to Apple, regardless of the law.
Meanwhile... this clause...
2)\tChild Labor Avoidance
Child labor is not to be used in any stage of manufacturing. The term “child” refers to any person under the age of 15 (or 14 where the law of the country permits), or under the age for completing compulsory education, or under the minimum age for employment in the country, whichever is greatest. The use of legitimate workplace apprenticeship programs, which comply with all laws and regulations, is supported. Workers under the age of 18 shall not perform work that is likely to jeopardize the health or safety of young workers.
Is part of the EICC Code of Conduct, which are the guidelines followed by Hewlett Packard, Lenovo, Acer, Asus, HTC, Sony, Samsung... and hundreds of others.
All of the companies listed here not only explicitly allow 15 year-olds to be employed in the manufacture of their products, but also allw 14 year-olds to be employed, "where the law of the country permits".
Likewise, Apple has taken a similar leadership role in matters of payment, working hours, and safety.
Just because you are ignorant of this doesn't mean it isn't true.
I don't honestly see why Apple's standard is different, or should be. Because they are a "cool products" company they should also be setting higher labor standards in China? Good luck with that. Foxconn alone has nearly a million employees -- by that measure at least they are far bigger than Apple.
Apple does set requirements for their suppliers in order for them to get the bid, and they do occasional audits. I recall Foxconn was a little bit out of compliance, but not terribly so.
Anyway, suppliers agree to this as part of the contract:
Apple does set requirements for their suppliers in order for them to get the bid, and they do occasional audits. I recall Foxconn was a little bit out of compliance, but not terribly so.
Anyway, suppliers agree to this as part of the contract:
So I'd say they can and do set the employment standards of their suppliers. They do try to position themselves as a more responsible company.
Apple can, in one sweep, rid of all these ethical questions and dilemmas: make its own factories where Apple has FULL control over the entire work force, labor standards and affairs.
If Apple was really a "responsible company", they would go this route. However, I dont see them doing it after getting a taste of profits in the tens of billions, their shareholders wont let them. All in the name of what? Making money? Sad sad sad.
Comments
Apple should be ashamed of themselves for associating their proud image of state-of-the-art technology with lack of safety enforced third party OEMs.
There are plenty of workers here in the US with better safety standards.
Why arent they hiring people here in America? In fact, why arent they building a factory here in America?
Oh right cost.
They are willing to cut jobs and hire unstable, safety standards dismissing third party OEMs (who jeapordize the workers lives, living conditions and health) in order to save a buck or two on their latest and greatest.
Whats even more sad is that, even after this type of event, Apple still wont budge from its Foxconn supplier because its helping them reek in the money for billions of profits.
Seems like Apple has no ethics in its business model.
Which is different from every other CE manufacturer how?
Apple should be ashamed of themselves for associating their proud image of state-of-the-art technology with lack of safety enforced third party OEMs.
There are plenty of workers here in the US with better safety standards.
Why arent they hiring people here in America? In fact, why arent they building a factory here in America?
Oh right cost.
They are willing to cut jobs and hire unstable, safety standards dismissing third party OEMs (who jeapordize the workers lives, living conditions and health) in order to save a buck or two on their latest and greatest.
Whats even more sad is that, even after this type of event, Apple still wont budge from its Foxconn supplier because its helping them reek in the money for billions of profits.
Seems like Apple has no ethics in its business model. The only "social good" that they emphasize(through marketing no less) is the recyclability of the materials that they use. They would be doing a much greater "social good" if they start bringing jobs here in the USA.
Yes, I would be willing to pay more for products that I know helps others workers in the US bring food to their families tables. Those who think otherwise should be castrated.
And folks wonder where Teckstud has been hiding?
[\\quote]
Honestly this is something our country should look into.
[quote]
China's system is fine if that is what Chinese people want, but our government shouldn't be forcing Americans to compete with a system that undervalues our own values.
[/qoute]
While something's need to be addressed protectionism isn't the answer. In many ways our coronet problems relate directly to our ability to compete. Interestingly there is a lot of talk right now about our inability graduate engineers from college. Unfortunately about half the country is a bunch of liberal elitist that expect somebody else to do the work for them.
Further, I have been to China. I worked in the clothing industry for many years. One of my many jobs was to inspect factories to check the quality of the output. You are correct. In the US, you can find some horrible factories (at least in the clothing manufacturing industry). They are all operating in violation of pretty much every US labor law. Ironically, the workers in these factories are all illegal immigrants who came here for better conditions.
So you let it slide?
In the companies defense, these types of factories here are forced to use illegal workers to compete with the foreign factories because illegal workers are the the only ones desperate enough to be treated so miserably by being paid so little. For example, one factory I had the pleasure of inspecting hired illegal Chinese immigrants. They worked over twelve hours days, six days a week, with a half hour break, for a fixed daily rate. The workers had no health care coverage, and the factories did away with standard safety equipment. The Company would be out of business if it tried to pay somebody minimum wage and compete with an actual Chinese Company. Sadly enough the workers in these factories would say this type of arrangement was better then the actual Chinese factories, which unfortunately I know to be true.
When was the last time you heard of employees in a major US factory committing suicide in large numbers? Enough said.
Sadly it happens but at least we don't make the mistake of blaming the company. Even the little outfit I worked for has had unfortunate suicides. One woman put a gun to her head and blew out her brains right in front of her kids, on guy hanged himself, the son of another employee hanged himself in her garage and the list goes on. Nobody blamed the company because the company wasn't there with a rope. In fact in some cases they tried to intervene, but there is really little one can do these days for the mentally I'll, the depressed or those otherwise affected.
Beyond that many accidents happen in the USA every day. However no body blames Apple. The mentality here is a bit like blaming the local electrician for a death in a copper mine on the other side of the country. It is the mentality of blaming everybody and anyone we can instead of actually ring to improve things.
On another note many here are appalled at the idea of humor in this context. That is a bit misplaced as it is a common coping mechanism used by ambulance and fire crews. I once had a discussion with a fire chief about this, they even have a term for it which escapes me now. The point is humor can be a coping mechanism for some very ugly things. Sometimes even humor doesn't cut it which is why other support mechanisms are in place. The fact is if you respond to a call where some motor cycle rider splattered himself across the front yard of several houses you are not going to have a good day, it may take days to shake it off.
That is a series of non sequiturs that ignore or misconstrue every single point that Dr. Millmoss has been making.
China's status according to the United Nations or any other international body has nothing to do with their approach to industrialization. The (obvious) fact that China's push towards industrialization comes a century or more after the Industrial Revolution doesn't tell us much one way or the other about the relative human cost of same, and China's ability to foster "green" technologies isn't what is in contention.
Thanks for saying so. I thought it might just be me. I go away from these boards for awhile and hope the level of discourse has improved at least a little by the time I come back. I can see no further justification for such unreasonable optimism.
And folks wonder where Teckstud has been hiding?
And what have you contributed by commenting? Nothing.
Which is different from every other CE manufacturer how?
Apple has a higher model to live up to. It should set the example for all other manufacturers to follow. As the leader in technology and an innovator who brings out revolutionary thinking and design, they should be the model for the rest of the industry.
I'm sure if Apple paves the way, the others will follow.
Apple has a higher model to live up to. It should set the example for all other manufacturers to follow. As the leader in technology and an innovator who brings out revolutionary thinking and design, they should be the model for the rest of the industry.
I'm sure if Apple paves the way, the others will follow.
I don't honestly see why Apple's standard is different, or should be. Because they are a "cool products" company they should also be setting higher labor standards in China? Good luck with that. Foxconn alone has nearly a million employees -- by that measure at least they are far bigger than Apple. Vastly. If we've learned anything from the industrial revolution and labor history it's that no company is going to volunteer to set significantly higher wage and working standards than their competitors. It's a classic "prisoner's dilemma." If you know your game theory you won't need the significance explained. No, the only way it gets better is if the government sets higher working standards for everyone, and gives labor basic rights to organize. No foreign company can do any part of this. And the Chinese government probably won't either, unless they see the wheels starting to come off, and maybe not even then.
Apple has a higher model to live up to. It should set the example for all other manufacturers to follow. As the leader in technology and an innovator who brings out revolutionary thinking and design, they should be the model for the rest of the industry.
I'm sure if Apple paves the way, the others will follow.
Actually, Apple have set higher labour standards in China. Apple conducts annual, third-party audit of all their suppliers, and corrects problems immediately when they are found.
Let's take the underage workers' issue, for instance. Apple found that one of their suppliers in China was employing 15-year olds. It happened to be legal in that area to emply 15 year-olds for that kind of work, and it was legal according to the UN labor regulations. But it isn't acceptable to Apple, so they cut all business with the factory in question.
Fifteen years old is unacceptable to Apple, regardless of the law.
Meanwhile... this clause...
2)\tChild Labor Avoidance
Child labor is not to be used in any stage of manufacturing. The term “child” refers to any person under the age of 15 (or 14 where the law of the country permits), or under the age for completing compulsory education, or under the minimum age for employment in the country, whichever is greatest. The use of legitimate workplace apprenticeship programs, which comply with all laws and regulations, is supported. Workers under the age of 18 shall not perform work that is likely to jeopardize the health or safety of young workers.
Is part of the EICC Code of Conduct, which are the guidelines followed by Hewlett Packard, Lenovo, Acer, Asus, HTC, Sony, Samsung... and hundreds of others.
All of the companies listed here not only explicitly allow 15 year-olds to be employed in the manufacture of their products, but also allw 14 year-olds to be employed, "where the law of the country permits".
Likewise, Apple has taken a similar leadership role in matters of payment, working hours, and safety.
Just because you are ignorant of this doesn't mean it isn't true.
I don't honestly see why Apple's standard is different, or should be. Because they are a "cool products" company they should also be setting higher labor standards in China? Good luck with that. Foxconn alone has nearly a million employees -- by that measure at least they are far bigger than Apple.
Apple does set requirements for their suppliers in order for them to get the bid, and they do occasional audits. I recall Foxconn was a little bit out of compliance, but not terribly so.
Anyway, suppliers agree to this as part of the contract:
http://images.apple.com/supplierresp...nduct_V3_1.pdf
So I'd say they can and do set the employment standards of their suppliers. They do try to position themselves as a more responsible company.
Apple does set requirements for their suppliers in order for them to get the bid, and they do occasional audits. I recall Foxconn was a little bit out of compliance, but not terribly so.
Anyway, suppliers agree to this as part of the contract:
http://images.apple.com/supplierresp...nduct_V3_1.pdf
So I'd say they can and do set the employment standards of their suppliers. They do try to position themselves as a more responsible company.
Apple can, in one sweep, rid of all these ethical questions and dilemmas: make its own factories where Apple has FULL control over the entire work force, labor standards and affairs.
If Apple was really a "responsible company", they would go this route. However, I dont see them doing it after getting a taste of profits in the tens of billions, their shareholders wont let them. All in the name of what? Making money? Sad sad sad.
Money doesnt go with us when we die.