VISIBLE outraged? Thats a new one. So unless someone is standing up and show outrage they are somehow an enemy?
Lets try this one: Many times the persons killed 911 die every day from hunger, esp. in africa. Many of those countries have a net export of food because its a better deal for "those who have" to sell the grain to european and american farmers to put in the cattle and pigs to make juicy meat for us. Now stand up and swear and curse capitalism and point your fist in the general direction of the closest butcher or you are an enemy of north african people.
VISIBLE outraged? Thats a new one. So unless someone is standing up and show outrage they are somehow an enemy?<hr></blockquote>
Thanks for twisting my words. Look, all I am saying is that there are millions of muslims in the Middle East that condone terrorism. I'm not saying that those who don't outrage are enemies. However, plenty of christians spoke out against Timmy McV and I really don't see many prominent Muslims residing in the Middle East speaking out against Osama. That's the difference. Let's stop pretending that this isn't a clash of civilizations.
[quote]Lets try this one: Many times the persons killed 911 die every day from hunger, esp. in africa. Many of those countries have a net export of food because its a better deal for "those who have" to sell the grain to european and american farmers to put in the cattle and pigs to make juicy meat for us. Now stand up and swear and curse capitalism and point your fist in the general direction of the closest butcher or you are an enemy of north african people.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
I'm not saying Western Civilization is perfect. I, however, have no problem saying we are better. We need marshall plans for all these struggling third world countries. Unfortunately wisdom is not part of this administration's repertoire.
<strong>Thanks for twisting my words.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I live to please
[quote]<strong>Look, all I am saying is that there are millions of muslims in the Middle East that condone terrorism. I'm not saying that those who don't outrage are enemies. However, plenty of christians spoke out against Timmy McV and I really don't see many prominent Muslims residing in the Middle East speaking out against Osama. That's the difference. Let's stop pretending that this isn't a clash of civilizations.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It isn´t as much a clash of civilisations as an ignorence of other civilisations than your own that always have been there.
When we attack a wedding in Afghanistan, shoot at fleeing soldiers in Irak (soldiers who has been forced into the army) etc. a lot of people (not all) in the west are saying "too bad but remember they invaded Kuwait/ flew
Jumbos into WTC". The portrait of the brides father, who has raised his three children through hard times and now proudly gave his first daugther away when it suddenly was erupted by a laser guided missile, never makes it to NYT. Its the same cultural distance that makes arabs say "Too bad about WTC. But they had it coming". People not far from you cultural or physically have higher value than those far from you and makes you loose the view of the individual. Thats why a small operation on Bush face makes a breaking and developing story on CNN and a train fire costing several hundreds of lifes in India doesn´t.
[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>
I'm not saying Western Civilization is perfect. I, however, have no problem saying we are better. We need marshall plans for all these struggling third world countries. Unfortunately wisdom is not part of this administration's repertoire.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
1) Not all would go so far. Many would say its their own fault. Capitalism gives them the means to make a better life for themselves.
2) But note what you are saying is that: yes unfortunetly our system has flaws and we can do more if we do a or b. I do the same. But actually those analysing 911 also do the same (no matter if their tools are in adequate). They have the distance to be academic about it. Try to ask those you talk about if they wanted the 5000+ individuals to die and you would get another picture just as those saying "too bad about the wedding party, but..." wouldn´t want the individuals to die.
Well Anders, it is a clash of civilizations. In Egypt 80% of women are circumcised. If you don't want to believe that 80% constitutes mainstream, you need a reality check. Women are ridiculously repressed in Middle Eastern Muslim culture. This isn't a simple misunderstanding. Their society simply is backward. I'm not afraid to say that. Imagine the outrage if, for instance, black people were treated the way women are treated in the Middle East. Well, then there would be some outrage.
It all boils down to oil and the pc movement that put politicians' balls in America's purse.
Then we have misunderstood eachother. I thought you meant clash of civilisations as in the way Huntington meant it. We have always had different cultures. Thats nothing new.
<strong>Then we have misunderstood eachother. I thought you meant clash of civilisations as in the way Huntington meant it. We have always had different cultures. Thats nothing new.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The thing is that it's politically correct these days to refrain from judging other cultures. Well, guess what? I'm going to judge. This is a culture that endorses mutilating women's genitalia, prevents the education of women, and essentially treats women as slaves. I'm going to judge. These ridiculous ideals have plagued this world for far too long. It's time that someone stood up and said that they need to get with the times or get the hell out.
When was the last time you were in the Middle East?</strong><hr></blockquote>
My name is BR. So I have to be there to know what's going on? Well, let's just throw all of today's technology out the window and go back to carrier pigeons.
[quote]So I have to be there to know what's going on? <hr></blockquote>
To really know how the people on the street think and feel, yes.
[quote]Well, let's just throw all of today's technology out the window and go back to carrier pigeons.<hr></blockquote>
Sorry, friend, but articles on online publications can't stuff the entire world into pill form for you and get all the facts and angles.
I'm sure FOXNews or The Guardian or whatever it is that you read is a bastion of fine journalism, but to think that it's enough to comment on an entire group of people living thousands of miles away and what they really think is laughable.
I remember big demonstrations of support for us after 9/11, Muslim leaders sending condolensces and remarks of disapproval... what more do you want?
Holy Fish and Chips Batman! I thought this was about the creation of an AI Religion. (sorta a joke thing) but I see this is a religios discussion board ON AI. (natch). I got it now....
Okay, my fifty five cents worth say bashing is bashing, and evil is just another way of saying you disagree. Granted it isn't popular to like Islam right now but in another place and time every other religion has embarassed itself just as badly and their followers have behaved just as shamefully. So lets try not to mix the Patriotism sentiment with the Religious sentiment. Obviously anybody on these forms represents a small slice of the demographic pie and we need not try to consume the rest of the pie without digesting our own peice first.
With that said, Hurray for the USA, down with the evil Terrorists, and God save the King.
[quote]what more do you want?[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
Real change. Words are meaningless unless they are backed with real actions. The atrocities committed everyday against women and non-believers continue.
<strong>Holy Fish and Chips Batman! I thought this was about the creation of an AI Religion. (sorta a joke thing) but I see this is a religios discussion board ON AI. (natch). I got it now....
Okay, my fifty five cents worth say bashing is bashing, and evil is just another way of saying you disagree. Granted it isn't popular to like Islam right now but in another place and time every other religion has embarassed itself just as badly and their followers have behaved just as shamefully. So lets try not to mix the Patriotism sentiment with the Religious sentiment. Obviously anybody on these forms represents a small slice of the demographic pie and we need not try to consume the rest of the pie without digesting our own peice first.
With that said, Hurray for the USA, down with the evil Terrorists, and God save the King.</strong><hr></blockquote>
In a perfect world all organized religion would go the way of the dinosaurs.
[quote]Real change. Words are meaningless unless they are backed with real actions. The atrocities committed everyday against women and non-believers continue.<hr></blockquote>
[quote]Enough tomfoolery. Just stick to the issues and leave the smartass comments at home.<hr></blockquote>
Not really a smart-ass comment, just an observation.
I've got plenty of smart-ass comments, though, and I'll be sure to let you know when I use them. (<- there's one)
"Atrocities" against women and non-believers isn't something limited to Islam, unfortunately. Muslim offenders are by far the most visible today, but let's not be blind to the world and her recent history.
"Atrocities" against women and non-believers isn't something limited to Islam, unfortunately. Muslim offenders are by far the most visible today, but let's not be blind to the world and her recent history.
Milosevic isn't Muslim. <hr></blockquote>
Just because I want one culture of hatred to be destroyed doesn't mean I want the rest to thrive. Milosevic's culture of hatred also needs to be killed. We must not tolerate intolerance god dammit.
Comments
<strong>In my case I want to become Jewish because I believe in God and I admire the Jewish people because of their courage.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Being perpetually persecuted != courage
They're pretty damn mainstream.
<strong>The Muslims in my workplace won't come to the pub but they don't support terrorism.
They're pretty damn mainstream.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And where do you live? I'm not talking about European or American Muslims.
This is what I said before...
Millions of Mainstream Muslims in the Middle East sure aren't visibly outraged.
[ 07-09-2002: Message edited by: BR ]</p>
Lets try this one: Many times the persons killed 911 die every day from hunger, esp. in africa. Many of those countries have a net export of food because its a better deal for "those who have" to sell the grain to european and american farmers to put in the cattle and pigs to make juicy meat for us. Now stand up and swear and curse capitalism and point your fist in the general direction of the closest butcher or you are an enemy of north african people.
VISIBLE outraged? Thats a new one. So unless someone is standing up and show outrage they are somehow an enemy?<hr></blockquote>
Thanks for twisting my words. Look, all I am saying is that there are millions of muslims in the Middle East that condone terrorism. I'm not saying that those who don't outrage are enemies. However, plenty of christians spoke out against Timmy McV and I really don't see many prominent Muslims residing in the Middle East speaking out against Osama. That's the difference. Let's stop pretending that this isn't a clash of civilizations.
[quote]Lets try this one: Many times the persons killed 911 die every day from hunger, esp. in africa. Many of those countries have a net export of food because its a better deal for "those who have" to sell the grain to european and american farmers to put in the cattle and pigs to make juicy meat for us. Now stand up and swear and curse capitalism and point your fist in the general direction of the closest butcher or you are an enemy of north african people.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
I'm not saying Western Civilization is perfect. I, however, have no problem saying we are better. We need marshall plans for all these struggling third world countries. Unfortunately wisdom is not part of this administration's repertoire.
[ 07-09-2002: Message edited by: BR ]</p>
<strong>Thanks for twisting my words.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I live to please
[quote]<strong>Look, all I am saying is that there are millions of muslims in the Middle East that condone terrorism. I'm not saying that those who don't outrage are enemies. However, plenty of christians spoke out against Timmy McV and I really don't see many prominent Muslims residing in the Middle East speaking out against Osama. That's the difference. Let's stop pretending that this isn't a clash of civilizations.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It isn´t as much a clash of civilisations as an ignorence of other civilisations than your own that always have been there.
When we attack a wedding in Afghanistan, shoot at fleeing soldiers in Irak (soldiers who has been forced into the army) etc. a lot of people (not all) in the west are saying "too bad but remember they invaded Kuwait/ flew
Jumbos into WTC". The portrait of the brides father, who has raised his three children through hard times and now proudly gave his first daugther away when it suddenly was erupted by a laser guided missile, never makes it to NYT. Its the same cultural distance that makes arabs say "Too bad about WTC. But they had it coming". People not far from you cultural or physically have higher value than those far from you and makes you loose the view of the individual. Thats why a small operation on Bush face makes a breaking and developing story on CNN and a train fire costing several hundreds of lifes in India doesn´t.
[quote]Originally posted by BR:
<strong>
I'm not saying Western Civilization is perfect. I, however, have no problem saying we are better. We need marshall plans for all these struggling third world countries. Unfortunately wisdom is not part of this administration's repertoire.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
1) Not all would go so far. Many would say its their own fault. Capitalism gives them the means to make a better life for themselves.
2) But note what you are saying is that: yes unfortunetly our system has flaws and we can do more if we do a or b. I do the same. But actually those analysing 911 also do the same (no matter if their tools are in adequate). They have the distance to be academic about it. Try to ask those you talk about if they wanted the 5000+ individuals to die and you would get another picture just as those saying "too bad about the wedding party, but..." wouldn´t want the individuals to die.
The difference is egal.
It all boils down to oil and the pc movement that put politicians' balls in America's purse.
<strong>Then we have misunderstood eachother. I thought you meant clash of civilisations as in the way Huntington meant it. We have always had different cultures. Thats nothing new.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The thing is that it's politically correct these days to refrain from judging other cultures. Well, guess what? I'm going to judge. This is a culture that endorses mutilating women's genitalia, prevents the education of women, and essentially treats women as slaves. I'm going to judge. These ridiculous ideals have plagued this world for far too long. It's time that someone stood up and said that they need to get with the times or get the hell out.
[quote]I really don't see many prominent Muslims residing in the Middle East speaking out against Osama.<hr></blockquote>
When was the last time you were in the Middle East?
<strong>scott_h:
When was the last time you were in the Middle East?</strong><hr></blockquote>
My name is BR. So I have to be there to know what's going on? Well, let's just throw all of today's technology out the window and go back to carrier pigeons.
To really know how the people on the street think and feel, yes.
[quote]Well, let's just throw all of today's technology out the window and go back to carrier pigeons.<hr></blockquote>
Sorry, friend, but articles on online publications can't stuff the entire world into pill form for you and get all the facts and angles.
I'm sure FOXNews or The Guardian or whatever it is that you read is a bastion of fine journalism, but to think that it's enough to comment on an entire group of people living thousands of miles away and what they really think is laughable.
I remember big demonstrations of support for us after 9/11, Muslim leaders sending condolensces and remarks of disapproval... what more do you want?
Okay, my fifty five cents worth say bashing is bashing, and evil is just another way of saying you disagree. Granted it isn't popular to like Islam right now but in another place and time every other religion has embarassed itself just as badly and their followers have behaved just as shamefully. So lets try not to mix the Patriotism sentiment with the Religious sentiment. Obviously anybody on these forms represents a small slice of the demographic pie and we need not try to consume the rest of the pie without digesting our own peice first.
With that said, Hurray for the USA, down with the evil Terrorists, and God save the King.
Real change. Words are meaningless unless they are backed with real actions. The atrocities committed everyday against women and non-believers continue.
<strong>Holy Fish and Chips Batman! I thought this was about the creation of an AI Religion. (sorta a joke thing) but I see this is a religios discussion board ON AI. (natch). I got it now....
Okay, my fifty five cents worth say bashing is bashing, and evil is just another way of saying you disagree. Granted it isn't popular to like Islam right now but in another place and time every other religion has embarassed itself just as badly and their followers have behaved just as shamefully. So lets try not to mix the Patriotism sentiment with the Religious sentiment. Obviously anybody on these forms represents a small slice of the demographic pie and we need not try to consume the rest of the pie without digesting our own peice first.
With that said, Hurray for the USA, down with the evil Terrorists, and God save the King.</strong><hr></blockquote>
In a perfect world all organized religion would go the way of the dinosaurs.
You seem to have changed course.
<strong>
You seem to have changed course.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Enough tomfoolery. Just stick to the issues and leave the smartass comments at home.
Not really a smart-ass comment, just an observation.
I've got plenty of smart-ass comments, though, and I'll be sure to let you know when I use them. (<- there's one)
"Atrocities" against women and non-believers isn't something limited to Islam, unfortunately. Muslim offenders are by far the most visible today, but let's not be blind to the world and her recent history.
Milosevic isn't Muslim.
"Atrocities" against women and non-believers isn't something limited to Islam, unfortunately. Muslim offenders are by far the most visible today, but let's not be blind to the world and her recent history.
Milosevic isn't Muslim.
Just because I want one culture of hatred to be destroyed doesn't mean I want the rest to thrive. Milosevic's culture of hatred also needs to be killed. We must not tolerate intolerance god dammit.