I think that makes sense, but I wonder if the optimism is misplaced. It would seem to me that any attempt to create a new system would be bogged down in attempts by carriers to lock it down even more thoroughly to make you go to the issuing carrier for permission to switch to another carrier.
I don't think it's so much a new system than simpl6 using a current system more prominently over their old system. By that I mean the prepaid phone card system. Every carrier I know allows that.
To be clear, I'm not saying that iPhones should be prepaid, i'm suggesting the data on a SIM can be placed on a card that requires NFC for initial setup, manual input, and/or some other method to activate the device. This is the electronic SIM.
The biggest complaint from users for an electronic SIMs seem to revolve around traveling between countries, but I say that is the best usage of it. At the most it would require a restart of the phone to chose the new carrier setup and at best it would auto-switch when you jump borders and carriers. No more carrying and shuffling little plastic picks.
For the amount of data they store they are quite large, and you also have to consider the components it connects to inside the device. Have you see inside an iPhone?
Yes, but you're ignoring several factors:
1. Even if there was no SIM, the percentage of space savings would be tiny. The SIM and hardware together can't make up even 1% of the inside of an iPhone - probably a lot less. While it's always worth making incremental improvements, anyone thinking that a smaller SIM card would do anything is probably dreaming.
2. At some point, it gets so small that it's more difficult to handle. Of course, telcos could argue that it's not meant to be handled - in which case I would say "then get rid of it".
Seems to me that it would be better to simply get rid of it entirely rather than spending time and money on shrinking it. And there's no inherent reason why it would reduce the telco's lock on the phone - in fact, it might strengthen their hold. If Apple were to include the SIM information in the firmware using good encryption, then it would be impossible for users to change it. With the SIM card, any user can insert a different card. So why are the telcos complaining about loss of the SIM?
Seems to me that it would be better to simply get rid of it entirely rather than spending time and money on shrinking it. And there's no inherent reason why it would reduce the telco's lock on the phone - in fact, it might strengthen their hold. If Apple were to include the SIM information in the firmware using good encryption, then it would be impossible for users to change it. With the SIM card, any user can insert a different card. So why are the telcos complaining about loss of the SIM?
It really astounds me that the SIM area is roughly the same size as the A4 chip!
However what I really want is the iPhone to officially and happily hold 2 SIMs at the same time - it wouldn't bother me how they do it.
Currently I have a 3GS from work and a 4 for myself - each on different carriers. It would be great to just have a single handset that could deal with both numbers at the same time. Work policies prevent me from using some the unofficial adaptors/add-ons/methods that are available to achieve this.
It strikes me that it is ridiculous for carriers to put barriers in place to restrict hardware development. Apple should just go SIM-less and be done with it. The carriers that want the customers would get on the bandwagon pretty quickly if they didn't want to loose their market share.
I was just thinking Nextel's Motorola iDEN network was doing this already a decade ago. And their Push to Talk had virtually no delay. I wonder what it was about iDEN that allowed one phone to receive on two separate numbers and if it could be adapted to GSM/UMTS/LTE
It just occurred to me. We've heard rumors of a smaller iPhone coming, with others contradicting it. We're also hearing about an iPhone with a slightly larger screen.
What if it's both. What if the pictures of the iPhone with the 'larger' screen are just pictures of a 'smaller' iphone with the same size screen? I think I'd actually dig it more, the iPhone feels a bit big sometimes, even the 4.
This is far more likely than Apple producing an iPhone with a bigger screen.
When has there ever been an Apple product where they come out after the first three years of adoption and say: "You know, we made a mistake when we made this thing so small, this years model is going to be much bigger."
When has there ever been an Apple product where after the first few three years of adoption have they ever said: "You know, our competitors products have got something right that we totally didn't, so we are adopting the larger screen size that they have on their product."
To assume they are going to have a bigger screen, you have to believe that the Apple engineers didn't really think too much about the screen size they started with and somehow just arbitrarily went with 3.5" at 4:3 resolution. I'm not saying larger iPhone screens will never happen, but it's really quite unlikely IMO and the entire history of Apple design would argue against it.
1. Even if there was no SIM, the percentage of space savings would be tiny. The SIM and hardware together can't make up even 1% of the inside of an iPhone - probably a lot less. While it's always worth making incremental improvements, anyone thinking that a smaller SIM card would do anything is probably dreaming.
2. At some point, it gets so small that it's more difficult to handle. Of course, telcos could argue that it's not meant to be handled - in which case I would say "then get rid of it".
Seems to me that it would be better to simply get rid of it entirely rather than spending time and money on shrinking it. And there's no inherent reason why it would reduce the telco's lock on the phone - in fact, it might strengthen their hold. If Apple were to include the SIM information in the firmware using good encryption, then it would be impossible for users to change it. With the SIM card, any user can insert a different card. So why are the telcos complaining about loss of the SIM?
I think this sums up my thoughts also.
Anyone who had to clip their already tiny SIM card from the regular size to the small one knows that it's almost impossible to handle the things already. While the components could very easily be miniaturised smaller than a grain of rice, the size of the current microSIM is already pushing the limits of what can be efficiently handled by a human.
1. Even if there was no SIM, the percentage of space savings would be tiny. The SIM and hardware together can't make up even 1% of the inside of an iPhone - probably a lot less. While it's always worth making incremental improvements, anyone thinking that a smaller SIM card would do anything is probably dreaming.
2. At some point, it gets so small that it's more difficult to handle. Of course, telcos could argue that it's not meant to be handled - in which case I would say "then get rid of it".
Seems to me that it would be better to simply get rid of it entirely rather than spending time and money on shrinking it. And there's no inherent reason why it would reduce the telco's lock on the phone - in fact, it might strengthen their hold. If Apple were to include the SIM information in the firmware using good encryption, then it would be impossible for users to change it. With the SIM card, any user can insert a different card. So why are the telcos complaining about loss of the SIM?
From that picture, how is the SIM card and the mechanical support for it less than 1% of the iPhone? Look at the board, that gigantic silver tray in the middle is the SIM tray.
From that picture, how is the SIM card and the mechanical support for it less than 1% of the iPhone? Look at the board, that gigantic silver tray in the middle is the SIM tray.
Volume is different than area - it's probably more than 1% but certainly not as much as the footprint on the motherboard would lead you to believe.
Volume is different than area - it's probably more than 1% but certainly not as much as the footprint on the motherboard would lead you to believe.
The reasons Apple wants to eliminate the removable SIM and SIM tray are clear. The volume is irrelevant when the entire device has to be built around it. The concern isn't that it takes up too much space or adds too much weight. The concern that it's way too big and pointless. Connecting to the baseband, being on a area that is accessible from the outside, etc. I've seen gas station bathroom that were smaller.
I don't the weak connection points have been mentioned. The data might be minimal but if there isn't a solid connection your device won't function properly. There are more than a few articles that resolved what was perceived to be an antenna issue with a resetting of the SIM or a new SIM entirely. I wonder if some returns and replacements were just faulty SIM or connections. Even if under 1% of the returns were for that reason it's still a lot of reasons to want a better solution.
Have you heard of a service called "Line 2"? It might allow you to use just one iPhone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamWallace
It really astounds me that the SIM area is roughly the same size as the A4 chip!
However what I really want is the iPhone to officially and happily hold 2 SIMs at the same time - it wouldn't bother me how they do it.
Currently I have a 3GS from work and a 4 for myself - each on different carriers. It would be great to just have a single handset that could deal with both numbers at the same time. Work policies prevent me from using some the unofficial adaptors/add-ons/methods that are available to achieve this.
It strikes me that it is ridiculous for carriers to put barriers in place to restrict hardware development. Apple should just go SIM-less and be done with it. The carriers that want the customers would get on the bandwagon pretty quickly if they didn't want to loose their market share.
Have you heard of a service called "Line 2"? It might allow you to use just one iPhone.
Orange UK used to have those service. I don't know what happened to it I presume take up rate was too low to maintain. That was some 5-10 years ago.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingKuei
I know some people in some countries are going to hate this. In Thailand, for example, they just introduced the micro-SIM very recently due to the launch of iPhone 4. Now you throw in yet another SIM card standard... let's call it the pico-SIM, I have to imagine some foreign carriers are about to lose their minds already. LOL.
I would imagine that if your country was late in the queue to get the iPhone, it won't change anytime soon so there won't be any hurry to change again.
Volume is different than area - it's probably more than 1% but certainly not as much as the footprint on the motherboard would lead you to believe.
I don't think it's so much the volume either. I believe the increased board space is a strong consideration though. Board space is more important than volume in electronic circuitry. Imagine being able to use that board space instead of storing a few k of information on a SIM, using that "freed" board space to get 64 or 128GB of storage or adding some other features.
I don't think it's so much the volume either. I believe the increased board space is a strong consideration though. Board space is more important than volume in electronic circuitry. Imagine being able to use that board space instead of storing a few k of information on a SIM, using that "freed" board space to get 64 or 128GB of storage or adding some other features.
I think far bigger than any consideration of space is the reduction in design freedom that results. Imagine Apple's designers at step one of the new phone design. Here we have the required components - RAM, SSD, CPU, all these things can be moved around pretty freely. The SIM slot has to be at the edge of the phone, and must be a thorn in the designers' side every time.
Can someone with technical expertise in this area explain to me exactly WHY we still need SIM cards? Contacts can be backed up to the cloud and if it's for ID purposes, can't the internal processor fill that role?
Can someone with technical expertise in this area explain to me exactly WHY we still need SIM cards? Contacts can be backed up to the cloud and if it's for ID purposes, can't the internal processor fill that role?
There's no technical reason for SIM cards to be needed. It's something that's demanded by the telcos because they believe it gives them more control (erroneously, IMHO).
Can someone with technical expertise in this area explain to me exactly WHY we still need SIM cards? Contacts can be backed up to the cloud and if it's for ID purposes, can't the internal processor fill that role?
How about easily moving your subscription from one device to another without having to contact or approve the change from either device manufacturer? Just in case your phone dies on you or you want to upgrade/downgrade...
Cloud is nice and convenient, but many many organisations do not allow cloud services due to security reasons.
There's no technical reason for SIM cards to be needed. It's something that's demanded by the telcos because they believe it gives them more control (erroneously, IMHO).
I think Apple's goal is to implement the e-SIM, period. And the further miniaturizing of the physical SIM is just a convenient hook to hang the issue on.
Putting an e-SIM in iPhones will solve some of the hardware design issues mentioned by other posters, BUT it would also make it much easier for users to switch carriers and maybe use more than one carrier (ie, when traveling). The end result being: wresting some control away from the carriers and giving it to users and Apple. And if users went to Apple to setup wireless accounts, instead of directly to carriers, that would give Apple an added amount of influence.
I bet Apple has been putting this story out in the media on the sly, knowing that the carriers would not agree to implementing an e-SIM, but hoping to stir up public opinion in their favor and portray the telcos as standing in the way of innovation.
Comments
I think that makes sense, but I wonder if the optimism is misplaced. It would seem to me that any attempt to create a new system would be bogged down in attempts by carriers to lock it down even more thoroughly to make you go to the issuing carrier for permission to switch to another carrier.
I don't think it's so much a new system than simpl6 using a current system more prominently over their old system. By that I mean the prepaid phone card system. Every carrier I know allows that.
To be clear, I'm not saying that iPhones should be prepaid, i'm suggesting the data on a SIM can be placed on a card that requires NFC for initial setup, manual input, and/or some other method to activate the device. This is the electronic SIM.
The biggest complaint from users for an electronic SIMs seem to revolve around traveling between countries, but I say that is the best usage of it. At the most it would require a restart of the phone to chose the new carrier setup and at best it would auto-switch when you jump borders and carriers. No more carrying and shuffling little plastic picks.
For the amount of data they store they are quite large, and you also have to consider the components it connects to inside the device. Have you see inside an iPhone?
Yes, but you're ignoring several factors:
1. Even if there was no SIM, the percentage of space savings would be tiny. The SIM and hardware together can't make up even 1% of the inside of an iPhone - probably a lot less. While it's always worth making incremental improvements, anyone thinking that a smaller SIM card would do anything is probably dreaming.
2. At some point, it gets so small that it's more difficult to handle. Of course, telcos could argue that it's not meant to be handled - in which case I would say "then get rid of it".
Seems to me that it would be better to simply get rid of it entirely rather than spending time and money on shrinking it. And there's no inherent reason why it would reduce the telco's lock on the phone - in fact, it might strengthen their hold. If Apple were to include the SIM information in the firmware using good encryption, then it would be impossible for users to change it. With the SIM card, any user can insert a different card. So why are the telcos complaining about loss of the SIM?
Seems to me that it would be better to simply get rid of it entirely rather than spending time and money on shrinking it. And there's no inherent reason why it would reduce the telco's lock on the phone - in fact, it might strengthen their hold. If Apple were to include the SIM information in the firmware using good encryption, then it would be impossible for users to change it. With the SIM card, any user can insert a different card. So why are the telcos complaining about loss of the SIM?
Where have I read that before??
It really astounds me that the SIM area is roughly the same size as the A4 chip!
However what I really want is the iPhone to officially and happily hold 2 SIMs at the same time - it wouldn't bother me how they do it.
Currently I have a 3GS from work and a 4 for myself - each on different carriers. It would be great to just have a single handset that could deal with both numbers at the same time. Work policies prevent me from using some the unofficial adaptors/add-ons/methods that are available to achieve this.
It strikes me that it is ridiculous for carriers to put barriers in place to restrict hardware development. Apple should just go SIM-less and be done with it. The carriers that want the customers would get on the bandwagon pretty quickly if they didn't want to loose their market share.
I was just thinking Nextel's Motorola iDEN network was doing this already a decade ago. And their Push to Talk had virtually no delay. I wonder what it was about iDEN that allowed one phone to receive on two separate numbers and if it could be adapted to GSM/UMTS/LTE
It just occurred to me. We've heard rumors of a smaller iPhone coming, with others contradicting it. We're also hearing about an iPhone with a slightly larger screen.
What if it's both. What if the pictures of the iPhone with the 'larger' screen are just pictures of a 'smaller' iphone with the same size screen? I think I'd actually dig it more, the iPhone feels a bit big sometimes, even the 4.
This is far more likely than Apple producing an iPhone with a bigger screen.
When has there ever been an Apple product where they come out after the first three years of adoption and say: "You know, we made a mistake when we made this thing so small, this years model is going to be much bigger."
When has there ever been an Apple product where after the first few three years of adoption have they ever said: "You know, our competitors products have got something right that we totally didn't, so we are adopting the larger screen size that they have on their product."
To assume they are going to have a bigger screen, you have to believe that the Apple engineers didn't really think too much about the screen size they started with and somehow just arbitrarily went with 3.5" at 4:3 resolution. I'm not saying larger iPhone screens will never happen, but it's really quite unlikely IMO and the entire history of Apple design would argue against it.
Yes, but you're ignoring several factors:
1. Even if there was no SIM, the percentage of space savings would be tiny. The SIM and hardware together can't make up even 1% of the inside of an iPhone - probably a lot less. While it's always worth making incremental improvements, anyone thinking that a smaller SIM card would do anything is probably dreaming.
2. At some point, it gets so small that it's more difficult to handle. Of course, telcos could argue that it's not meant to be handled - in which case I would say "then get rid of it".
Seems to me that it would be better to simply get rid of it entirely rather than spending time and money on shrinking it. And there's no inherent reason why it would reduce the telco's lock on the phone - in fact, it might strengthen their hold. If Apple were to include the SIM information in the firmware using good encryption, then it would be impossible for users to change it. With the SIM card, any user can insert a different card. So why are the telcos complaining about loss of the SIM?
I think this sums up my thoughts also.
Anyone who had to clip their already tiny SIM card from the regular size to the small one knows that it's almost impossible to handle the things already. While the components could very easily be miniaturised smaller than a grain of rice, the size of the current microSIM is already pushing the limits of what can be efficiently handled by a human.
Yes, but you're ignoring several factors:
1. Even if there was no SIM, the percentage of space savings would be tiny. The SIM and hardware together can't make up even 1% of the inside of an iPhone - probably a lot less. While it's always worth making incremental improvements, anyone thinking that a smaller SIM card would do anything is probably dreaming.
2. At some point, it gets so small that it's more difficult to handle. Of course, telcos could argue that it's not meant to be handled - in which case I would say "then get rid of it".
Seems to me that it would be better to simply get rid of it entirely rather than spending time and money on shrinking it. And there's no inherent reason why it would reduce the telco's lock on the phone - in fact, it might strengthen their hold. If Apple were to include the SIM information in the firmware using good encryption, then it would be impossible for users to change it. With the SIM card, any user can insert a different card. So why are the telcos complaining about loss of the SIM?
From that picture, how is the SIM card and the mechanical support for it less than 1% of the iPhone? Look at the board, that gigantic silver tray in the middle is the SIM tray.
From that picture, how is the SIM card and the mechanical support for it less than 1% of the iPhone? Look at the board, that gigantic silver tray in the middle is the SIM tray.
Volume is different than area - it's probably more than 1% but certainly not as much as the footprint on the motherboard would lead you to believe.
Volume is different than area - it's probably more than 1% but certainly not as much as the footprint on the motherboard would lead you to believe.
The reasons Apple wants to eliminate the removable SIM and SIM tray are clear. The volume is irrelevant when the entire device has to be built around it. The concern isn't that it takes up too much space or adds too much weight. The concern that it's way too big and pointless. Connecting to the baseband, being on a area that is accessible from the outside, etc. I've seen gas station bathroom that were smaller.
I don't the weak connection points have been mentioned. The data might be minimal but if there isn't a solid connection your device won't function properly. There are more than a few articles that resolved what was perceived to be an antenna issue with a resetting of the SIM or a new SIM entirely. I wonder if some returns and replacements were just faulty SIM or connections. Even if under 1% of the returns were for that reason it's still a lot of reasons to want a better solution.
It really astounds me that the SIM area is roughly the same size as the A4 chip!
However what I really want is the iPhone to officially and happily hold 2 SIMs at the same time - it wouldn't bother me how they do it.
Currently I have a 3GS from work and a 4 for myself - each on different carriers. It would be great to just have a single handset that could deal with both numbers at the same time. Work policies prevent me from using some the unofficial adaptors/add-ons/methods that are available to achieve this.
It strikes me that it is ridiculous for carriers to put barriers in place to restrict hardware development. Apple should just go SIM-less and be done with it. The carriers that want the customers would get on the bandwagon pretty quickly if they didn't want to loose their market share.
Have you heard of a service called "Line 2"? It might allow you to use just one iPhone.
Hmmm, thanks - I'll look into it. Don't know if work will wear it though
Have you heard of a service called "Line 2"? It might allow you to use just one iPhone.
Orange UK used to have those service. I don't know what happened to it I presume take up rate was too low to maintain. That was some 5-10 years ago.
I know some people in some countries are going to hate this. In Thailand, for example, they just introduced the micro-SIM very recently due to the launch of iPhone 4. Now you throw in yet another SIM card standard... let's call it the pico-SIM, I have to imagine some foreign carriers are about to lose their minds already. LOL.
I would imagine that if your country was late in the queue to get the iPhone, it won't change anytime soon so there won't be any hurry to change again.
Volume is different than area - it's probably more than 1% but certainly not as much as the footprint on the motherboard would lead you to believe.
I don't think it's so much the volume either. I believe the increased board space is a strong consideration though. Board space is more important than volume in electronic circuitry. Imagine being able to use that board space instead of storing a few k of information on a SIM, using that "freed" board space to get 64 or 128GB of storage or adding some other features.
I don't think it's so much the volume either. I believe the increased board space is a strong consideration though. Board space is more important than volume in electronic circuitry. Imagine being able to use that board space instead of storing a few k of information on a SIM, using that "freed" board space to get 64 or 128GB of storage or adding some other features.
I think far bigger than any consideration of space is the reduction in design freedom that results. Imagine Apple's designers at step one of the new phone design. Here we have the required components - RAM, SSD, CPU, all these things can be moved around pretty freely. The SIM slot has to be at the edge of the phone, and must be a thorn in the designers' side every time.
Can someone with technical expertise in this area explain to me exactly WHY we still need SIM cards? Contacts can be backed up to the cloud and if it's for ID purposes, can't the internal processor fill that role?
There's no technical reason for SIM cards to be needed. It's something that's demanded by the telcos because they believe it gives them more control (erroneously, IMHO).
Can someone with technical expertise in this area explain to me exactly WHY we still need SIM cards? Contacts can be backed up to the cloud and if it's for ID purposes, can't the internal processor fill that role?
How about easily moving your subscription from one device to another without having to contact or approve the change from either device manufacturer? Just in case your phone dies on you or you want to upgrade/downgrade...
Cloud is nice and convenient, but many many organisations do not allow cloud services due to security reasons.
Regs, Jarkko
There's no technical reason for SIM cards to be needed. It's something that's demanded by the telcos because they believe it gives them more control (erroneously, IMHO).
I think Apple's goal is to implement the e-SIM, period. And the further miniaturizing of the physical SIM is just a convenient hook to hang the issue on.
Putting an e-SIM in iPhones will solve some of the hardware design issues mentioned by other posters, BUT it would also make it much easier for users to switch carriers and maybe use more than one carrier (ie, when traveling). The end result being: wresting some control away from the carriers and giving it to users and Apple. And if users went to Apple to setup wireless accounts, instead of directly to carriers, that would give Apple an added amount of influence.
I bet Apple has been putting this story out in the media on the sly, knowing that the carriers would not agree to implementing an e-SIM, but hoping to stir up public opinion in their favor and portray the telcos as standing in the way of innovation.