Simply legalizing a hellish drug like heroin isn't going to accomplish much. There are two addictions: The chemical variety, which treatment centers are already capable of weaning people from, and the simple familiarity, which is a tougher nut to crack. If someone is treated for chemical dependency on heroin and put back where they were, it's highly likely that they'll be right back on it: The context they're in is one they associate with being high, the people they know they associate with the drug, they know where to score, etc. This is why cigarette addictions are among the hardest to break - not because nicotine is so powerfully addictive in and of itself, but because the social situations people smoke in are so common that they're almost impossible to avoid, and getting a cigarette can be as easy as bumming one off the guy next to you. Habit is powerful; mental associations are powerful.
The most reliable long-term way to cure a drug addict - any kind - is to relocate them to a new context. New neighborhood, new friends, new job. Then they can build new habits and new association s that aren't linked to the drug. A local musician who had to quit a thirty-year three pack a day habit (due to rampant emphysema) ended up, after several foiled attempts, putting his electric guitar away, retiring his band, and playing solo acoustic shows in coffeehouses. Why? Because as long as he was in a context that he'd always smoked in, and in a bar where there was a lot of smoking going on, he was hopeless. That worked. He's been clean for several years now.
As for marijuana, I'm not sure if this is so much a move toward legalization (to which I'm indifferent either way) so much as a move away from the silly hysteria that lumped it in with cocaine on the controlled substances list (at least in the US). Where I am, alcohol is a much more serious problem than marijuana, and I doubt even legalization would change that.
First you say that "simply legalizing a hellish drug like heroin isn't going to accomplish much" as once you're back out on the street the situation will see to it that you're back on the smack.
While I take the general point about addiction ...
... where are you going to get your street heroin from when the dealers are all out of business!?
They won't be there!
Your smack won't be "street legal" but available for FREE for registered addicts ONLY from doctors in the plan I outline.
Actually, we do know what happen if my plan came in as that's how it used to be in the UK:
Registered addicts 1980: 2441
Registered addicts 1990: 17755
Heroin supply used to be in the hands of people that wanted you OFF it, instead of you ON it. And your sister. And your mum. And your mates.
[quote]"In 1995 up to £1.3 billion worth of property may have been stolen in the UK by heroin addicts alone to fund their habit". That is over £3.5 million a day! The cost to the criminal justice system in dealing with these offenders is another £1 billion. The amount of money spent by heroin users on heroin each year is at least £ 1.2 billion (remember that this is money outside the legal economy)."<hr></blockquote>
Now let's talk about the financial effect on tax payers shall we? Legalise it. We'll all be richer.
Legalize it all, (im serious), and the second you cease to function as a normal human, and become a burden, ie needing rehab, unemployed, criminal, Then we sentance you to death.
Should I give a shit if your crack is cut and it makes you ill? About as much as you give a shit about the old lady you mugged to get her pension.
Infact, I hope you supply is bad and it does make you ill, very ill infact.
<strong>Legalize it all, (im serious), and the second you cease to function as a normal human, and become a burden, ie needing rehab, unemployed, criminal, Then we sentance you to death.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Mark, you're being a prick now.
I'm not saying "make it legal so you can buy it on any street corner." You'd know that if you read the posts. I'm saying:
I'm not saying "make it legal so you can buy it on any street corner." You'd know that if you read the posts. I'm saying:
*put the dealers out of business
*stop the need for people to mug others
*some other stuff you won't read
And that's not how you spell sentence.</strong><hr></blockquote>
1) I beg to differ
2) And Im saying that unless it was so legal that you could buy it on any street corner, there will always be a criminal element involved. Cigarrettes are legally obtainable on every street corner, so why is there still extensive tobacco smuggling? Exactly
3)moron
And thats not how you spell Marc!!!!
4) Why offer legally obtainable drugs through prescription/rehab etc. If someone gets to this stage, I do not want them on my planet. They are a burden. Why should I pay for their ****-up? I would have them sentenced to death.
5) And no I dont give a shit for PC.
edit: Right, now wheres the single mums on benefits thread?
street deals will go down. theres proof in amsterdam. i didn know that there was tobacco smuggling. that is surprising. so, maybe street deals wont die completely. as for refusing to treat people who are on drugs, that is callous. if a person had aids would you say the same thing?
2) And Im saying that unless it was so legal that you could buy it on any street corner, there will always be a criminal element involved. Cigarrettes are legally obtainable on every street corner, so why is there still extensive tobacco smuggling? Exactly[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: MarcUK ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am a smackhead too. I can either:
a) buy smack from a guy on the corner, probably cut with Vim
or
b) get it free, and pharmaceutical grade from my doctor.
Er, 'b'. Yes, I'd go for 'b'. My doctor doesn't prescribe cigarettes. Does yours?
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>Get off your Drugs
Stop your complaining
Grow Up
Face the music of life without Drugs
Grow Up
Grow Up
Grow UP
Next issue?</strong><hr></blockquote>
sometimes you need a little break from reality from time to time to get a fresh perspective on life. is there really any difference wether i get that break with alcohol, pot, shrooms, or religion?
[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: running with scissors ]</p>
If good heroin is available for free from a doctor, why would someone buy crap heroin from a dealer? Straight question, straight answer please.
<strong> [quote]2) And Im saying that unless it was so legal that you could buy it on any street corner, there will always be a criminal element involved. Cigarrettes are legally obtainable on every street corner, so why is there still extensive tobacco smuggling? Exactly.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Uh, no. Not exactly, but you are making my point for me! If I can get something I'm addicted to either by paying a lot or paying a little, I'll pay a little. But I'll still get it. If it's free, Marc, WHY WOULD I PAY A DEALER FOR INFERIOR STUFF? Where is the economic advantage in being a dealer when I'm up against the government?
<strong> [quote]4) Why offer legally obtainable drugs through prescription/rehab etc. If someone gets to this stage, I do not want them on my planet. They are a burden. Why should I pay for their ****-up? I would have them sentenced to death.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Let me get this straight: you would rather end someone's life then give them help to make their lives better? Is that what you're saying? I guess there ain't much point debating with you then about possible real-world solutions to real world problems.
My solution is one that was the status quo until 20 years ago.
Your solution is one that even the Daily Mail would find obscene along with 99.9% of the UK.
<strong> [quote]
5) And no I dont give a shit for PC.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeh! Let's you and me find some Downs Syndrome kids and call them "spazz monkeys" for a laugh!!!
<strong>street deals will go down. theres proof in amsterdam. i didn know that there was tobacco smuggling. that is surprising. so, maybe street deals wont die completely. as for refusing to treat people who are on drugs, that is callous. if a person had aids would you say the same thing?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Of course there is tobacco smuggling, we used to get a couple come round in a van every month to sell us cheap cigs where I worked. Turkish, Greek fags, thousands of them. WHY? Because the govnment taxes it highly. They make a few quid, their dealer makes a few thou, at the top of the chain you have brutal gangs organising shit like this to make millions. All this for goods sold legally on every corner.
Harald says that legalising drugs kills the dealer market. BS. How many users (not the completely f-uped desperate sell my ass for a hit types) are going to go see their GP for a months supply of coke. About 0.2% of them.
Sell a box of 20 crack-fags on every corner. Regular packs of 20 tobacco cigs cost apx £5 here because of govn taxes. Only a retard would think that '20 cracks' is not going to cost at least £20 due to taxes. Do you want your rebellious teenage kid legally buying '20 cracks' with his paperround money.
There is no answer to the drug problems. That is why I advocate a 'if you get involved in something you really really know will **** you up. You will be sentEnced to death'. policy
<strong>Harald says that legalising drugs kills the dealer market. BS. How many users (not the completely f-uped desperate sell my ass for a hit types) are going to go see their GP for a months supply of coke. About 0.2% of them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Marc:
You are an addict, poor and hungry with a MONKEY ON YOUR BACK THE SIZE OF GIBRALTAR.
You have a choice:
1) Beg, and when that doesn't work mug someone at personal risk, break into a bunch of houses and steal a few tellys and flog a few car radios. If you are female, sell your body (as they do on my street). Go without food.
What the hell reason on Earth should Junkies be given FREE drugs from their GP.?
I have to pay for that. You would be a burden on me. **** you. Where do I get a say, Ive done nothing wrong,I didn't become addicted to something that I KNEW was going to **** my life up before I took the first hit. And you want me to pay for you to get it for free??????
You are an addict, poor and hungry with a MONKEY ON YOUR BACK THE SIZE OF GIBRALTAR.
You have a choice:
1) Beg, and when that doesn't work mug someone at personal risk, break into a bunch of houses and steal a few tellys and flog a few car radios. If you are female, sell your body (as they do on my street). Go without food.
2) Go to the doctor and get your fix.
0.02% would do the latter?
You're the one on drugs matey.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You may If you can see through your purple haze notice that I specifically bracketed out the types of people that would go to their doctor for thier fix. Which happen to be very close to your approximation.
But do you really think that the people who take E's at the weekend, do coke on thier business trips etc etc are going to go to their doctor to get it?
I put it to you, that if you read AND understand what I am saying, and still dismiss it, then YOU must be on drugs, right about now i'd guess
[quote]do you really think that the people who take E's at the weekend, do coke on thier business trips etc etc are going to go to their doctor to get it?<hr></blockquote>
if its a choice between boosting a car, and asking my doctor, i'd ask my doctor. here's an example of why i think it'll work: i know a couple of dealers. they have various degrees of quality of stuff, and various prices. i go to the one with the lowest price (in my case actually, its the best grade stuff too). doctors are going to have pure(r) stuff, for cheaper prices. hence, less streat deelers.
Comments
<strong>
true, but you can't forget the christian right either.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Since when were they right?
The most reliable long-term way to cure a drug addict - any kind - is to relocate them to a new context. New neighborhood, new friends, new job. Then they can build new habits and new association s that aren't linked to the drug. A local musician who had to quit a thirty-year three pack a day habit (due to rampant emphysema) ended up, after several foiled attempts, putting his electric guitar away, retiring his band, and playing solo acoustic shows in coffeehouses. Why? Because as long as he was in a context that he'd always smoked in, and in a bar where there was a lot of smoking going on, he was hopeless. That worked. He's been clean for several years now.
As for marijuana, I'm not sure if this is so much a move toward legalization (to which I'm indifferent either way) so much as a move away from the silly hysteria that lumped it in with cocaine on the controlled substances list (at least in the US). Where I am, alcohol is a much more serious problem than marijuana, and I doubt even legalization would change that.
First you say that "simply legalizing a hellish drug like heroin isn't going to accomplish much" as once you're back out on the street the situation will see to it that you're back on the smack.
While I take the general point about addiction ...
... where are you going to get your street heroin from when the dealers are all out of business!?
They won't be there!
Your smack won't be "street legal" but available for FREE for registered addicts ONLY from doctors in the plan I outline.
[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: Harald ]</p>
<strong>
Since when were they right?</strong><hr></blockquote>
would you prefer "christian extream a$$holes" instead?
Registered addicts 1980: 2441
Registered addicts 1990: 17755
Heroin supply used to be in the hands of people that wanted you OFF it, instead of you ON it. And your sister. And your mum. And your mates.
[quote]"In 1995 up to £1.3 billion worth of property may have been stolen in the UK by heroin addicts alone to fund their habit". That is over £3.5 million a day! The cost to the criminal justice system in dealing with these offenders is another £1 billion. The amount of money spent by heroin users on heroin each year is at least £ 1.2 billion (remember that this is money outside the legal economy)."<hr></blockquote>
Now let's talk about the financial effect on tax payers shall we? Legalise it. We'll all be richer.
<a href="http://www.transform-drugs.org.uk/p-setting.htm" target="_blank">Here's my source</a> and no, it's good academic research, not a nutty "LEGALISE IT" site.
Should I give a shit if your crack is cut and it makes you ill? About as much as you give a shit about the old lady you mugged to get her pension.
Infact, I hope you supply is bad and it does make you ill, very ill infact.
<strong>Legalize it all, (im serious), and the second you cease to function as a normal human, and become a burden, ie needing rehab, unemployed, criminal, Then we sentance you to death.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Mark, you're being a prick now.
I'm not saying "make it legal so you can buy it on any street corner." You'd know that if you read the posts. I'm saying:
*put the dealers out of business
*stop the need for people to mug others
*some other stuff you won't read
And that's not how you spell sentence.
<strong>
would you prefer "christian extream a$$holes" instead?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Now you're on the right track. Get it? Get it?
<strong>
Mark, you're being a prick now.
I'm not saying "make it legal so you can buy it on any street corner." You'd know that if you read the posts. I'm saying:
*put the dealers out of business
*stop the need for people to mug others
*some other stuff you won't read
And that's not how you spell sentence.</strong><hr></blockquote>
1) I beg to differ
2) And Im saying that unless it was so legal that you could buy it on any street corner, there will always be a criminal element involved. Cigarrettes are legally obtainable on every street corner, so why is there still extensive tobacco smuggling? Exactly
3)moron
And thats not how you spell Marc!!!!
4) Why offer legally obtainable drugs through prescription/rehab etc. If someone gets to this stage, I do not want them on my planet. They are a burden. Why should I pay for their ****-up? I would have them sentenced to death.
5) And no I dont give a shit for PC.
edit: Right, now wheres the single mums on benefits thread?
[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: MarcUK ]</p>
<strong>Get off your Drugs
Stop your complaining
Grow Up
Face the music of life without Drugs
Grow Up
Grow Up
Grow UP
Next issue?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Noooooo, religion doesn't breed intolerance....
<strong>Get off your Drugs
Stop your complaining
Grow Up
Face the music of life without Drugs
Grow Up
Grow Up
Grow UP
Next issue?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Grow up and stop complaining!
It's genius.
Church, you should be in government.
<strong>
2) And Im saying that unless it was so legal that you could buy it on any street corner, there will always be a criminal element involved. Cigarrettes are legally obtainable on every street corner, so why is there still extensive tobacco smuggling? Exactly[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: MarcUK ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am a smackhead too. I can either:
a) buy smack from a guy on the corner, probably cut with Vim
or
b) get it free, and pharmaceutical grade from my doctor.
Er, 'b'. Yes, I'd go for 'b'. My doctor doesn't prescribe cigarettes. Does yours?
[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i-Sabbah ]</p>
<strong>Get off your Drugs
Stop your complaining
Grow Up
Face the music of life without Drugs
Grow Up
Grow Up
Grow UP
Next issue?</strong><hr></blockquote>
sometimes you need a little break from reality from time to time to get a fresh perspective on life. is there really any difference wether i get that break with alcohol, pot, shrooms, or religion?
[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: running with scissors ]</p>
<strong>
1) I beg to differ<hr></blockquote></strong>
If good heroin is available for free from a doctor, why would someone buy crap heroin from a dealer? Straight question, straight answer please.
<strong> [quote]2) And Im saying that unless it was so legal that you could buy it on any street corner, there will always be a criminal element involved. Cigarrettes are legally obtainable on every street corner, so why is there still extensive tobacco smuggling? Exactly.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Uh, no. Not exactly, but you are making my point for me! If I can get something I'm addicted to either by paying a lot or paying a little, I'll pay a little. But I'll still get it. If it's free, Marc, WHY WOULD I PAY A DEALER FOR INFERIOR STUFF? Where is the economic advantage in being a dealer when I'm up against the government?
<strong> [quote]4) Why offer legally obtainable drugs through prescription/rehab etc. If someone gets to this stage, I do not want them on my planet. They are a burden. Why should I pay for their ****-up? I would have them sentenced to death.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Let me get this straight: you would rather end someone's life then give them help to make their lives better? Is that what you're saying? I guess there ain't much point debating with you then about possible real-world solutions to real world problems.
My solution is one that was the status quo until 20 years ago.
Your solution is one that even the Daily Mail would find obscene along with 99.9% of the UK.
<strong> [quote]
5) And no I dont give a shit for PC.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeh! Let's you and me find some Downs Syndrome kids and call them "spazz monkeys" for a laugh!!!
[ 07-12-2002: Message edited by: Harald ]</p>
<strong>street deals will go down. theres proof in amsterdam. i didn know that there was tobacco smuggling. that is surprising. so, maybe street deals wont die completely. as for refusing to treat people who are on drugs, that is callous. if a person had aids would you say the same thing?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Of course there is tobacco smuggling, we used to get a couple come round in a van every month to sell us cheap cigs where I worked. Turkish, Greek fags, thousands of them. WHY? Because the govnment taxes it highly. They make a few quid, their dealer makes a few thou, at the top of the chain you have brutal gangs organising shit like this to make millions. All this for goods sold legally on every corner.
Harald says that legalising drugs kills the dealer market. BS. How many users (not the completely f-uped desperate sell my ass for a hit types) are going to go see their GP for a months supply of coke. About 0.2% of them.
Sell a box of 20 crack-fags on every corner. Regular packs of 20 tobacco cigs cost apx £5 here because of govn taxes. Only a retard would think that '20 cracks' is not going to cost at least £20 due to taxes. Do you want your rebellious teenage kid legally buying '20 cracks' with his paperround money.
There is no answer to the drug problems. That is why I advocate a 'if you get involved in something you really really know will **** you up. You will be sentEnced to death'. policy
<strong>Harald says that legalising drugs kills the dealer market. BS. How many users (not the completely f-uped desperate sell my ass for a hit types) are going to go see their GP for a months supply of coke. About 0.2% of them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Marc:
You are an addict, poor and hungry with a MONKEY ON YOUR BACK THE SIZE OF GIBRALTAR.
You have a choice:
1) Beg, and when that doesn't work mug someone at personal risk, break into a bunch of houses and steal a few tellys and flog a few car radios. If you are female, sell your body (as they do on my street). Go without food.
2) Go to the doctor and get your fix.
0.02% would do the latter?
You're the one on drugs matey.
I have to pay for that. You would be a burden on me. **** you. Where do I get a say, Ive done nothing wrong,I didn't become addicted to something that I KNEW was going to **** my life up before I took the first hit. And you want me to pay for you to get it for free??????
FVCK YOU AGAIN
<strong>
Marc:
You are an addict, poor and hungry with a MONKEY ON YOUR BACK THE SIZE OF GIBRALTAR.
You have a choice:
1) Beg, and when that doesn't work mug someone at personal risk, break into a bunch of houses and steal a few tellys and flog a few car radios. If you are female, sell your body (as they do on my street). Go without food.
2) Go to the doctor and get your fix.
0.02% would do the latter?
You're the one on drugs matey.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You may If you can see through your purple haze notice that I specifically bracketed out the types of people that would go to their doctor for thier fix. Which happen to be very close to your approximation.
But do you really think that the people who take E's at the weekend, do coke on thier business trips etc etc are going to go to their doctor to get it?
I put it to you, that if you read AND understand what I am saying, and still dismiss it, then YOU must be on drugs, right about now i'd guess
if its a choice between boosting a car, and asking my doctor, i'd ask my doctor. here's an example of why i think it'll work: i know a couple of dealers. they have various degrees of quality of stuff, and various prices. i go to the one with the lowest price (in my case actually, its the best grade stuff too). doctors are going to have pure(r) stuff, for cheaper prices. hence, less streat deelers.