The author of the SMH article is Ritt Goldstein, an American multi-millionaire that fled the US and is currently seeking political asylum in Sweden. His case is getting European attention but Sweden is afraid to grant him asylum status as it might embarass the US.
scott_h_phd if this was being done under a Democratic government you would be up in arms over this.The threat during the cold war was far greater than that that exists now,yet there were no spy networks of this magnitude in operation.
<strong> scott_h_phd if this was being done under a Democratic government you would be up in arms over this.The threat during the cold war was far greater than that that exists now,yet there were no spy networks of this magnitude in operation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I thought we DID live in a democratic government... oh wait you meant Democratic government.
I'd be interested to know how this actually works. Is it merely a hotline to say "Oh, this brown guy rented an apartment and storage facility" or will there be a big enforcement agency with more rights than regular cops and such?
and who would they take?? only republicians during republican administrations?? only democrats during democratic administrations?? heck, sign me up, i have a few wacko gun-toting neighbors i'd like to get stripped searched...heck, cavity searched :eek:
if you are conservative, do you want liberal hippie freaks spying on you and deciding what behavior is "strange"? if you are liberal, do you want conservative nra card carring freaks spying on you and deciding what behavior is strange??
[quote] To think that in a time of war the citizens would be asked to report any strange activity. <hr></blockquote>
currently anyone can report strange activity without having to "enlist" millions of busy body psuedo-spys....and the "time of war" comment is really getting used alot lately...maybe because it is hard for this country to think of itself at war with an enemy with no country or borders...if we are in a "time of war" we will be FOREVER...just like our "war on drugs" is neverending...a war on terrorism is never over so it really isn't a war....wars have beginnings and ends and winners and losers...terrorism is nothing but losers on all sides and has no end...we can drop bombs on terrorists, but not on terrorism....g
The system already exists for people to report suspicious activity. It's referred to as "call the FBI."
As for "recruiting" folks to do this, if people would do their patriotic duty and report suspicious stuff in the first place, there would be no need for any "recruiting" or the creation of infrastructure for this type of thing.
I don't want to see our rights infringed, but some of you guys have to realize that we're at war, and the war isn't going away any time soon. This country is SO VULNERABLE from many different angles, and taking "reasonable" precautions to intercept terrorism is expected. Many of you "hate Bush" freaks would be screaming if government didn't take precautions to fink out subversives.
Finally, believe it or not, if you aren't engaged in any terrorist activities THIS KIND OF SCRUTINY ISN'T A THREAT TO YOU. You see, unlike Stalinist Roossia or Hitler's Chermany, we still have an unprecedented level of legal rights in the US. That ain't gonna change -- there is no slippery slope here. But it's amazing to see how even folks on the Left can find conspiracies if they want to.
The problem with programs like this isn't what its said to do because we all want terrorists to be caught before they kill innoncent people. The problem is what it is capable of developing itself to. And even if its not going beyond its intentional use it still have the probability of affecting the everyday life of the citizents in US.
Here in Denmark some people are hiding refugees coming from countries that are seen as "safe" by the authorities. Sometimes whole cities (mayers, police officers etc.) know about a family living with the Smiths. Its clearly illegal to do this but nobody is reporting it because they can see that it is people in need. And to a certain degree they can be open about it and that is healthy in a society because tings can be discussed (in this case refugees and our treatment of them).
If I knew we had "internal spies" I would never dare to be open about it. I would fear that my neighbour would tell on me and I would start to make self-survaillence that would in the end become my own prison.
Notice that the citizent spies doesnt even have to report any of this but just the feeling of being watched by my neighbour is enough.
Im a bit tired right no but I hope my point is understandable or I will elaborate tomorrow.
BTW in 1984 one of the points was that the three countries had to in constant war with eachother to justify the terror against their own people. When I read it back in the 80s it was hard not to see the cold war as serving this purpose. With Glastnost and Perestrojka the "excuse" was gone. I guess now ots back to normal again. Perhaps the 90s was a golden age not only economically but also with regards to our individual freedom.
Finally, believe it or not, if you aren't engaged in any terrorist activities THIS KIND OF SCRUTINY ISN'T A THREAT TO YOU. You see, unlike Stalinist Roossia or Hitler's Chermany, we still have an unprecedented level of legal rights in the US. That ain't gonna change -- there is no slippery slope here. But it's amazing to see how even folks on the Left can find conspiracies if they want to.
<hr></blockquote>
You are deluded,you haven't been paying attention to what has been going,the USA Patriot act has already stripped away a lot of rights.This kind of scrutinity is a threat to every American.For one thing this is a violation of the 4th admendment-using utility people to spy on people's homes without a warrant.Another thing that you don't get is that this is not a left-right issue-a lot of this was coming to a head during the Clinton years,as evidenced by the Elian Gonzalez case.
<strong>The system already exists for people to report suspicious activity. It's referred to as "call the FBI."
As for "recruiting" folks to do this, if people would do their patriotic duty and report suspicious stuff in the first place, there would be no need for any "recruiting" or the creation of infrastructure for this type of thing.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have no doubt that people would report whatever suspicious activity they observe (esp. after 911). They dont need a dedicate bureaucracy to do this. So why have it if it doesn't add anything?
My guess is that FBI and CIA just got a lot of money and now have to show a lot of activity to show initiative and that could be all jolly if it wasnt for one of the few rules in sociology: A system/bureaucracys first goal is to ensure its own survival (not to fulfil its purpose). And what would be better for this new little bureaucracy than to show that it is able to bring forth information that would no other agency can? So even if it wasn't meant to be used against anything else than bomb-prepairing terrorists it can by its own inner dynamics slowly but surely change its purpose to what ensures its own survival.
[quote] Finally, believe it or not, if you aren't engaged in any terrorist activities THIS KIND OF SCRUTINY ISN'T A THREAT TO YOU. <hr></blockquote>
you would be surprised how this can be used against "common people"...let's say i don't like my neighbor so i call up and tell the feds that so-and-so down the street is acting in a terroristic way...who knows what will show up when the police ramsack their house and search their computers...maybe nothing, but what did i lose (maybe i even sneak something illegal into their house first)...it can be used to crack down on militias and the far right, it can also be used to crack down on hippies and the far left...just look at that woman who set fake anthrax letters with the return address of a neighbor kid who was picking on her son...that kinda sh!t could go wild with everyone turning everyone else in and even making stuff up...you don't have to hate bush to hate this...he will not always be in power...if a democrat wins in two years i won't want them to have this "power" either.....as has been pointed out, we already can report unusual activity...so the question becomes what is this supposed to add, what is this "really" suppose to do???? g
Comments
More about Ritt Goldstein in UK Gaurdian
<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/europarl/Story/0,2763,510051,00.html"; target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/europarl/Story/0,2763,510051,00.html</a>;
Those of you who read 1984 should remember Goldstein.
Let's see if the "independent" media like ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, CNN, etc report on this. I doubt they will.
Doubleplusbad
Read 1984
scott_h_phd if this was being done under a Democratic government you would be up in arms over this.The threat during the cold war was far greater than that that exists now,yet there were no spy networks of this magnitude in operation.
But if it IS true... God help us.
<strong> scott_h_phd if this was being done under a Democratic government you would be up in arms over this.The threat during the cold war was far greater than that that exists now,yet there were no spy networks of this magnitude in operation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I thought we DID live in a democratic government... oh wait you meant Democratic government.
[quote]
We don't know if this is being done. We have one report from a very very biased source, hardly enough to start wailing "epidemic!".
<hr></blockquote>
It's legitamate,really being done,as reported on this government website,the URL already posted earlier in this thread:
<a href="http://www.citizencorps.gov/tips.html"; target="_blank">http://www.citizencorps.gov/tips.html</a>;
concerned workers to report
suspicious activity."
I'd be interested to know how this actually works. Is it merely a hotline to say "Oh, this brown guy rented an apartment and storage facility" or will there be a big enforcement agency with more rights than regular cops and such?
if you are conservative, do you want liberal hippie freaks spying on you and deciding what behavior is "strange"? if you are liberal, do you want conservative nra card carring freaks spying on you and deciding what behavior is strange??
[quote] To think that in a time of war the citizens would be asked to report any strange activity. <hr></blockquote>
currently anyone can report strange activity without having to "enlist" millions of busy body psuedo-spys....and the "time of war" comment is really getting used alot lately...maybe because it is hard for this country to think of itself at war with an enemy with no country or borders...if we are in a "time of war" we will be FOREVER...just like our "war on drugs" is neverending...a war on terrorism is never over so it really isn't a war....wars have beginnings and ends and winners and losers...terrorism is nothing but losers on all sides and has no end...we can drop bombs on terrorists, but not on terrorism....g
As for "recruiting" folks to do this, if people would do their patriotic duty and report suspicious stuff in the first place, there would be no need for any "recruiting" or the creation of infrastructure for this type of thing.
I don't want to see our rights infringed, but some of you guys have to realize that we're at war, and the war isn't going away any time soon. This country is SO VULNERABLE from many different angles, and taking "reasonable" precautions to intercept terrorism is expected. Many of you "hate Bush" freaks would be screaming if government didn't take precautions to fink out subversives.
Finally, believe it or not, if you aren't engaged in any terrorist activities THIS KIND OF SCRUTINY ISN'T A THREAT TO YOU. You see, unlike Stalinist Roossia or Hitler's Chermany, we still have an unprecedented level of legal rights in the US. That ain't gonna change -- there is no slippery slope here. But it's amazing to see how even folks on the Left can find conspiracies if they want to.
Here in Denmark some people are hiding refugees coming from countries that are seen as "safe" by the authorities. Sometimes whole cities (mayers, police officers etc.) know about a family living with the Smiths. Its clearly illegal to do this but nobody is reporting it because they can see that it is people in need. And to a certain degree they can be open about it and that is healthy in a society because tings can be discussed (in this case refugees and our treatment of them).
If I knew we had "internal spies" I would never dare to be open about it. I would fear that my neighbour would tell on me and I would start to make self-survaillence that would in the end become my own prison.
Notice that the citizent spies doesnt even have to report any of this but just the feeling of being watched by my neighbour is enough.
Im a bit tired right no but I hope my point is understandable or I will elaborate tomorrow.
BTW in 1984 one of the points was that the three countries had to in constant war with eachother to justify the terror against their own people. When I read it back in the 80s it was hard not to see the cold war as serving this purpose. With Glastnost and Perestrojka the "excuse" was gone. I guess now ots back to normal again. Perhaps the 90s was a golden age not only economically but also with regards to our individual freedom.
Finally, believe it or not, if you aren't engaged in any terrorist activities THIS KIND OF SCRUTINY ISN'T A THREAT TO YOU. You see, unlike Stalinist Roossia or Hitler's Chermany, we still have an unprecedented level of legal rights in the US. That ain't gonna change -- there is no slippery slope here. But it's amazing to see how even folks on the Left can find conspiracies if they want to.
<hr></blockquote>
You are deluded,you haven't been paying attention to what has been going,the USA Patriot act has already stripped away a lot of rights.This kind of scrutinity is a threat to every American.For one thing this is a violation of the 4th admendment-using utility people to spy on people's homes without a warrant.Another thing that you don't get is that this is not a left-right issue-a lot of this was coming to a head during the Clinton years,as evidenced by the Elian Gonzalez case.
<strong>The system already exists for people to report suspicious activity. It's referred to as "call the FBI."
As for "recruiting" folks to do this, if people would do their patriotic duty and report suspicious stuff in the first place, there would be no need for any "recruiting" or the creation of infrastructure for this type of thing.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have no doubt that people would report whatever suspicious activity they observe (esp. after 911). They dont need a dedicate bureaucracy to do this. So why have it if it doesn't add anything?
My guess is that FBI and CIA just got a lot of money and now have to show a lot of activity to show initiative and that could be all jolly if it wasnt for one of the few rules in sociology: A system/bureaucracys first goal is to ensure its own survival (not to fulfil its purpose). And what would be better for this new little bureaucracy than to show that it is able to bring forth information that would no other agency can? So even if it wasn't meant to be used against anything else than bomb-prepairing terrorists it can by its own inner dynamics slowly but surely change its purpose to what ensures its own survival.
you would be surprised how this can be used against "common people"...let's say i don't like my neighbor so i call up and tell the feds that so-and-so down the street is acting in a terroristic way...who knows what will show up when the police ramsack their house and search their computers...maybe nothing, but what did i lose (maybe i even sneak something illegal into their house first)...it can be used to crack down on militias and the far right, it can also be used to crack down on hippies and the far left...just look at that woman who set fake anthrax letters with the return address of a neighbor kid who was picking on her son...that kinda sh!t could go wild with everyone turning everyone else in and even making stuff up...you don't have to hate bush to hate this...he will not always be in power...if a democrat wins in two years i won't want them to have this "power" either.....as has been pointed out, we already can report unusual activity...so the question becomes what is this supposed to add, what is this "really" suppose to do???? g
(Yeah keep you d*mn jokes to yourself on this one)