WeoOS, or it's potential, is the most praised part of the TouchPad. This is what HP paid for. One thing that might be forgotten is that WebOS is WebKit running on a Linux kernel. It is possible that this imposes some fundamental problems on it's flexibility and performance on current generation hardware.
When Palm Pre was released, the hardware it ran on was twice as fast as the 1st generation iPhone, but it felt the same. That is, the WebOS performed twice as slow compared to the iOS.
We are two years from the Pre now. The hardware is even faster, and the WebOS is still sluggish. What is the reason to expect that this will be fixed real soon with a software update? The perpetual expectation for the next great update started with Pre, and now the TouchPad takes over!
Ah, and the superior, the "real" multitasking! It was causing even more sluggishness with the Pre, and the same problems are back with the TouchPad! May be this "real" multitasking is not that great of advantage after all, may be Apple got it right, and WebOS team did not?
Someone, here I think, pointed out how we are in WebOS 3.0 and it is still slow. Indeed. WebOS was great, but the Pre hardware was holding it back. If only it has better hardware... Now,their 3rd generation, after taking their time, on the fast hardware available, dual-Core 1.2ghz CPU with 1 gig of ram...and it is still slow.
That, I think, points to a fundamental issue.
I write software, mainly server-side web apps. I have been hearing since the late 90's how web apps will displace native apps. "The hardware will eventually make it possible!" Java didn't get fast on the server until optimizations changed focus to compiling and stopped worrying about interpreting. And Java clients, gui stuff, still isn't quite as fast. Now, look at 2011, were we have, compared to 1999, internet speed, ram and CPU speed that are orders of magnitude faster than what we had in the 2000 time frame and web apps are still slow and less featured than native apps.
I always thought that the WebOS' "Look. You can write apps based on easy standards like html, css and javascript." was going to bite them in the ass. Those technologies simply aren't performant and probably never will be. Look at how they are trying to implement WebGL. This is a technology that uses your local video resources and drivers because the browser is too slow. WebOS, I suspect, will never be as fast as iOS or even Android because of how the system is architected. I suspect that they will eventually conclude that it has be changed and will pursue a native strategy...
There is no incentive to buy another tablet besides an iPad. It is the cheapest, fastest, and has the best 1st and 3rd party software available; it's the thinnest, and highest quality (why should I buy a plastic HP when Apple has an aluminum construction?)
Isn't the new Samsung Galaxy Tab thinner than the iPad 2? I know there was some pre-release mention made of how it's actually thicker, but reviews have stated it's the thinnest thing going.
What do RIM, Motorola, and now HP not understand about not getting a second chance to make a first impression? If your tablet is released in an incomplete form (missing a true email client, Flash, 4G, etc. out of the box), you are going to get bad reviews and piss off early adoptors. If the feature is promised on the box or in the ads, don't make customers wait to get the full experience.
Even if the missing features are promised to come "at some point in the near future", that isn't going to stop word of mouth from destroying the product you put so much time, money, effort, and hope into.
Release the damn thing when it's done and not a second before!
Oh this product is definitely a number 2...a big ol' smelly pile of number 2.
As an aside: Does HP's insistance that they are not trying to compete with Apple's iPad (yet) remind anyone else of Microsoft's insistance that they were not immediately trying to compete with Apple's iPod when they released the Zune? How did that turn out for them?
I always thought that the WebOS' "Look. You can write apps based on easy standards like html, css and javascript." was going to bite them in the ass. Those technologies simply aren't performant and probably never will be. Look at how they are trying to implement WebGL. This is a technology that uses your local video resources and drivers because the browser is too slow. WebOS, I suspect, will never be as fast as iOS or even Android because of how the system is architected. I suspect that they will eventually conclude that it has be changed and will pursue a native strategy...
Can you provide or point to any layman-type discussions that compare/contrast the architecture of WebOS/Android/iOS?
I'm calling it right now. In less than three months, HP will proclaim that the first generation TouchPad was quickly discounted so that it could be the first modern tablet in emerging markets. The upcoming TP2 will be for developed nations.
It's pretty clear that the GUI is supposed to be built using HTML and javascript.
For example, you can check the look of your app by opening the index.html file in a WebKit-based desktop browser (such as Safari or Chrome), without having to upload the application to either an actual device or the software device emulator.
iOS is based on objective C which means you have compiled native binary and a small lightweight runtime. Android is based on Dalvik, which is a java-like virtual machine running bytecode.
It gets discussed a little bit on the latest episode of the build&analyze podcast
Can you provide or point to any layman-type discussions that compare/contrast the architecture of WebOS/Android/iOS?
I have to be honest, I don't know if anyone has engaged in comparing the techs that way. I'm basing my thoughts on
)what I've read so far in the iOS dev network.
)what I've read so far in the Android network
)my understanding of how you create WebOS apps
)my direct development experience writing C/C++, Java/C#, web apps, js, and some interpreted languages like tcl/tk
) various readings from various sources over the course of my career involving optimizations, performance etc
)what I see today as a user of web based stuff(various Googletech)
One thing to consider is how many games will/would be written using the PDK vs. the standard Touchpad web tech. Why is the PDK there? Why does Google offer the NDK? I say this as someone who is far more of a Java fan than native fan after working with both. If what I was doing required the fastest performance, native is the way to go. Heck, simply look at iOS, Android and now TouchPad.
It'll be interesting to see how well they can tighten it up. But you have to ask, as a 3rd generation product, with this much hardware thrown at it, why isn't it faster right now?
One thing to consider is how many games will/would be written using the PDK vs. the standard Touchpad web tech. Why is the PDK there? Why does Google offer the NDK? I say this as someone who is far more of a Java fan than native fan after working with both. If what I was doing required the fastest performance, native is the way to go. Heck, simply look at iOS, Android and now TouchPad.
As a guy who tends to go with Native over VM I'd have to accept that something like Java with a good VM and Just-in-time compilation can get to a very high percentage of native performance - 80 or 90% is quite possible. But yeh Native > VM >>> Web for performance.
Anyway, something about this headline is bringing to mind an SNL style sketch - two HP guys are talking to a tech journalist
HP Guy 1: We didn't aim the touchpad at dethroning Apple
HP Guy 2: We didn't aim it at all, we just threw it at the market
Just had product training today and I have to say that webOS is very nice.
Multitasking is very responsive and the Touch to Share feature works well. With BeatsAudio built-in, audio sounds fantastic as well. The TouchStone charging dock is a nice accessory also. Oh - having a fully flashed enabled browser is a nice edition and loaded very fast.
I'm a self-confessed Apple fan boi but I have to say, the TouchPad is a very good alternative to the iPad. Its good to see more competition in this market. However, with the ecosystem Apple already has, HP are going to have to have some clever marketing to sway people...
I really feel that the TouchPad would have made more of an impact if it was released a year ago. It really would have been a real competitor to the original iPad.
What lets it down is the hardware - thicker and less attractive looking that the iPad 2.
It'll be interesting to see how webOS develops in the future...
Just had product training today and I have to say that webOS is very nice.
Multitasking is very responsive and the Touch to Share feature works well. With BeatsAudio built-in, audio sounds fantastic as well. The TouchStone charging dock is a nice accessory also. Oh - having a fully flashed enabled browser is a nice edition and loaded very fast.
It's interesting that you say that when absolutely every review of the Touchpad says that it is a bit unresponsive and that the flash subsystem is for emergency use only.
I'm guessing that the stuff you got shown on the product and got told to show consumers are the few things that actually work smoothly.
As a guy who tends to go with Native over VM I'd have to accept that something like Java with a good VM and Just-in-time compilation can get to a very high percentage of native performance - 80 or 90% is quite possible. But yeh Native > VM >>> Web for performance.
Anyway, something about this headline is bringing to mind an SNL style sketch - two HP guys are talking to a tech journalist
HP Guy 1: We didn't aim the touchpad at dethroning Apple
HP Guy 2: We didn't aim it at all, we just threw it at the market
HP Guy 1: *Nods* In disgust.
I agree with you. On the server-side, the back-end, IMO, java is the way to go. Put in a fast VM like JRockit, and you'll get great performance. My favorite IDE is Intellij, all swing. But native is a bit faster and looks much better. Even SWT cannot match the look.
Isn't the new Samsung Galaxy Tab thinner than the iPad 2? I know there was some pre-release mention made of how it's actually thicker, but reviews have stated it's the thinnest thing going.
From what I've read, the Galaxy Tab is 0.2mm thinner and a hundredth of a pound (0.01 pounds) lighter, and that's because the iPad has an aluminium back compared to plastic or whatever the Galaxy uses. OMG, you can like, totally tell the difference! Yip, the Galaxy Tab definitely owned the iPad and you should definitely consider buying it. <-
It's not about the hardware but what you do with it. <Insert sex joke here> I think it was Steve Jobs that said something along the lines of "If you think it's about processor speeds, then you've missed the point".
Heh, remember when the media joked about the iPad's name when it came out? Who's laughing now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EUiPhoneUser
Ah, and the superior, the "real" multitasking! It was causing even more sluggishness with the Pre, and the same problems are back with the TouchPad! May be this "real" multitasking is not that great of advantage after all, may be Apple got it right, and WebOS team did not?
At the end of the day, Apple got it spot on for multitasking. iOS sensibly scaled multitasking capability as the hardware and software matured. The bonus is the "snappiness" of the iPad which is tough to emulate. People laughed, but right now iOS has "enough" multitasking. Sure, Android I think handles it okay for smartphones, but certainly the other OSes are not at the same level of responsiveness as iOS and Android.
From what I've read, the Galaxy Tab is 0.2mm thinner
Yeh, but no, but yeh, but no, but in the end no.
It launched .2mm thinner and demo versions were distributed that were but then they had some sort of problem with the display, a supply issue or a yield issue, and had to change the module - so they ended up slightly thicker than the iPad-2 in the end.
Comments
WeoOS, or it's potential, is the most praised part of the TouchPad. This is what HP paid for. One thing that might be forgotten is that WebOS is WebKit running on a Linux kernel. It is possible that this imposes some fundamental problems on it's flexibility and performance on current generation hardware.
When Palm Pre was released, the hardware it ran on was twice as fast as the 1st generation iPhone, but it felt the same. That is, the WebOS performed twice as slow compared to the iOS.
We are two years from the Pre now. The hardware is even faster, and the WebOS is still sluggish. What is the reason to expect that this will be fixed real soon with a software update? The perpetual expectation for the next great update started with Pre, and now the TouchPad takes over!
Ah, and the superior, the "real" multitasking! It was causing even more sluggishness with the Pre, and the same problems are back with the TouchPad! May be this "real" multitasking is not that great of advantage after all, may be Apple got it right, and WebOS team did not?
Someone, here I think, pointed out how we are in WebOS 3.0 and it is still slow. Indeed. WebOS was great, but the Pre hardware was holding it back. If only it has better hardware... Now,their 3rd generation, after taking their time, on the fast hardware available, dual-Core 1.2ghz CPU with 1 gig of ram...and it is still slow.
That, I think, points to a fundamental issue.
I write software, mainly server-side web apps. I have been hearing since the late 90's how web apps will displace native apps. "The hardware will eventually make it possible!" Java didn't get fast on the server until optimizations changed focus to compiling and stopped worrying about interpreting. And Java clients, gui stuff, still isn't quite as fast. Now, look at 2011, were we have, compared to 1999, internet speed, ram and CPU speed that are orders of magnitude faster than what we had in the 2000 time frame and web apps are still slow and less featured than native apps.
I always thought that the WebOS' "Look. You can write apps based on easy standards like html, css and javascript." was going to bite them in the ass. Those technologies simply aren't performant and probably never will be. Look at how they are trying to implement WebGL. This is a technology that uses your local video resources and drivers because the browser is too slow. WebOS, I suspect, will never be as fast as iOS or even Android because of how the system is architected. I suspect that they will eventually conclude that it has be changed and will pursue a native strategy...
if they last long enough.
There is no incentive to buy another tablet besides an iPad. It is the cheapest, fastest, and has the best 1st and 3rd party software available; it's the thinnest, and highest quality (why should I buy a plastic HP when Apple has an aluminum construction?)
Isn't the new Samsung Galaxy Tab thinner than the iPad 2? I know there was some pre-release mention made of how it's actually thicker, but reviews have stated it's the thinnest thing going.
Even if the missing features are promised to come "at some point in the near future", that isn't going to stop word of mouth from destroying the product you put so much time, money, effort, and hope into.
Release the damn thing when it's done and not a second before!
Our goal is to produce a number 2 product.
Oh this product is definitely a number 2...a big ol' smelly pile of number 2.
As an aside: Does HP's insistance that they are not trying to compete with Apple's iPad (yet) remind anyone else of Microsoft's insistance that they were not immediately trying to compete with Apple's iPod when they released the Zune? How did that turn out for them?
I always thought that the WebOS' "Look. You can write apps based on easy standards like html, css and javascript." was going to bite them in the ass. Those technologies simply aren't performant and probably never will be. Look at how they are trying to implement WebGL. This is a technology that uses your local video resources and drivers because the browser is too slow. WebOS, I suspect, will never be as fast as iOS or even Android because of how the system is architected. I suspect that they will eventually conclude that it has be changed and will pursue a native strategy...
Can you provide or point to any layman-type discussions that compare/contrast the architecture of WebOS/Android/iOS?
This is an interesting viewpoint:
Can you provide or point to any layman-type discussions that compare/contrast the architecture of WebOS/Android/iOS?
Erm, not layman level no, but it is a fact that the UI layer of WebOS is built on top of web technology rather than native compiled binary.
We can see this pretty clearly in their tutorial on how to write a webos app
https://developer.palm.com/content/a...tutorial2.html
It's pretty clear that the GUI is supposed to be built using HTML and javascript.
For example, you can check the look of your app by opening the index.html file in a WebKit-based desktop browser (such as Safari or Chrome), without having to upload the application to either an actual device or the software device emulator.
iOS is based on objective C which means you have compiled native binary and a small lightweight runtime. Android is based on Dalvik, which is a java-like virtual machine running bytecode.
It gets discussed a little bit on the latest episode of the build&analyze podcast
http://5by5.tv/buildanalyze/31
This is an interesting viewpoint:
Can you provide or point to any layman-type discussions that compare/contrast the architecture of WebOS/Android/iOS?
I have to be honest, I don't know if anyone has engaged in comparing the techs that way. I'm basing my thoughts on
)what I've read so far in the iOS dev network.
)what I've read so far in the Android network
)my understanding of how you create WebOS apps
)my direct development experience writing C/C++, Java/C#, web apps, js, and some interpreted languages like tcl/tk
) various readings from various sources over the course of my career involving optimizations, performance etc
)what I see today as a user of web based stuff(various Googletech)
One thing to consider is how many games will/would be written using the PDK vs. the standard Touchpad web tech. Why is the PDK there? Why does Google offer the NDK? I say this as someone who is far more of a Java fan than native fan after working with both. If what I was doing required the fastest performance, native is the way to go. Heck, simply look at iOS, Android and now TouchPad.
It'll be interesting to see how well they can tighten it up. But you have to ask, as a 3rd generation product, with this much hardware thrown at it, why isn't it faster right now?
One thing to consider is how many games will/would be written using the PDK vs. the standard Touchpad web tech. Why is the PDK there? Why does Google offer the NDK? I say this as someone who is far more of a Java fan than native fan after working with both. If what I was doing required the fastest performance, native is the way to go. Heck, simply look at iOS, Android and now TouchPad.
As a guy who tends to go with Native over VM I'd have to accept that something like Java with a good VM and Just-in-time compilation can get to a very high percentage of native performance - 80 or 90% is quite possible. But yeh Native > VM >>> Web for performance.
Anyway, something about this headline is bringing to mind an SNL style sketch - two HP guys are talking to a tech journalist
HP Guy 1: We didn't aim the touchpad at dethroning Apple
HP Guy 2: We didn't aim it at all, we just threw it at the market
HP Guy 1: *Nods* In disgust.
Multitasking is very responsive and the Touch to Share feature works well. With BeatsAudio built-in, audio sounds fantastic as well. The TouchStone charging dock is a nice accessory also. Oh - having a fully flashed enabled browser is a nice edition and loaded very fast.
I'm a self-confessed Apple fan boi but I have to say, the TouchPad is a very good alternative to the iPad. Its good to see more competition in this market. However, with the ecosystem Apple already has, HP are going to have to have some clever marketing to sway people...
I really feel that the TouchPad would have made more of an impact if it was released a year ago. It really would have been a real competitor to the original iPad.
What lets it down is the hardware - thicker and less attractive looking that the iPad 2.
It'll be interesting to see how webOS develops in the future...
Just had product training today and I have to say that webOS is very nice.
Multitasking is very responsive and the Touch to Share feature works well. With BeatsAudio built-in, audio sounds fantastic as well. The TouchStone charging dock is a nice accessory also. Oh - having a fully flashed enabled browser is a nice edition and loaded very fast.
It's interesting that you say that when absolutely every review of the Touchpad says that it is a bit unresponsive and that the flash subsystem is for emergency use only.
I'm guessing that the stuff you got shown on the product and got told to show consumers are the few things that actually work smoothly.
As a guy who tends to go with Native over VM I'd have to accept that something like Java with a good VM and Just-in-time compilation can get to a very high percentage of native performance - 80 or 90% is quite possible. But yeh Native > VM >>> Web for performance.
Anyway, something about this headline is bringing to mind an SNL style sketch - two HP guys are talking to a tech journalist
HP Guy 1: We didn't aim the touchpad at dethroning Apple
HP Guy 2: We didn't aim it at all, we just threw it at the market
HP Guy 1: *Nods* In disgust.
I agree with you. On the server-side, the back-end, IMO, java is the way to go. Put in a fast VM like JRockit, and you'll get great performance. My favorite IDE is Intellij, all swing. But native is a bit faster and looks much better. Even SWT cannot match the look.
Isn't the new Samsung Galaxy Tab thinner than the iPad 2? I know there was some pre-release mention made of how it's actually thicker, but reviews have stated it's the thinnest thing going.
From what I've read, the Galaxy Tab is 0.2mm thinner and a hundredth of a pound (0.01 pounds) lighter, and that's because the iPad has an aluminium back compared to plastic or whatever the Galaxy uses. OMG, you can like, totally tell the difference! Yip, the Galaxy Tab definitely owned the iPad and you should definitely consider buying it. <-
It's not about the hardware but what you do with it. <Insert sex joke here> I think it was Steve Jobs that said something along the lines of "If you think it's about processor speeds, then you've missed the point".
Our goal is to produce a number 2 product.
Heh, remember when the media joked about the iPad's name when it came out? Who's laughing now?
Ah, and the superior, the "real" multitasking! It was causing even more sluggishness with the Pre, and the same problems are back with the TouchPad! May be this "real" multitasking is not that great of advantage after all, may be Apple got it right, and WebOS team did not?
At the end of the day, Apple got it spot on for multitasking. iOS sensibly scaled multitasking capability as the hardware and software matured. The bonus is the "snappiness" of the iPad which is tough to emulate. People laughed, but right now iOS has "enough" multitasking. Sure, Android I think handles it okay for smartphones, but certainly the other OSes are not at the same level of responsiveness as iOS and Android.
From what I've read, the Galaxy Tab is 0.2mm thinner
Yeh, but no, but yeh, but no, but in the end no.
It launched .2mm thinner and demo versions were distributed that were but then they had some sort of problem with the display, a supply issue or a yield issue, and had to change the module - so they ended up slightly thicker than the iPad-2 in the end.
It was all very embarrassing