I hope for Larry's sake the Android user hardware fraternity feel this is just for patent portfolio content. I would suspect a few more will be looking at Microsoft or internal Mobile OS development after this morning. Unless of course he shuts down Motorola Mobility later today.
What next, HP open WebOS up to all manufacturers for free if they promise to use HP printers and Ink?
Actually, the advantage to HP would be a cadre of manufacturers making mobile devices that run an OS compatible with HP's desktop OS.
HP does not need to be in the mobile device business to win in the WebOS game.
If they were further along with QNX, RIMM might have some interesting possibilities...
I thought google said they will keep Android open still despite now owning Motorola Mobile.
I can see a scenario where they have Android for all to please other handset makers, while they tightly integrate/optimize their hardware to produce an Apple-like synergy between Motorolas handsets and Android.
More and more Google has been sounding like a child that hasn't gotten its way and just keeps repeating "Its not fair".
They complained that they were overrun by Apple and Co. on the Nortel patents, but had gone in and made bids that equaled Pi and Brun's constant, which doesn't exactly tell me that they were taking the situation very seriously.
They talk about innovation and choice, maybe if they stopped whining for a few moments and did their own innovation, they would have a larger patent portfolio and wouldn't be "forced" into buying sinking ships like Motorola.
I think this move might really be about Oracle. Here's my theory:
1. Google knows it wilfully infringed Oracle's IP, that there's evidence it wilfully infringed Oracle's IP and that it can't win the case. They can't reach a licensing agreement with Oracle either.
2. Google knows it has to move to a non-infringing, incompatible platform. Essentially they have to dump Android as it currently exists and do a complete rewrite.
3. Google has been to its Android partners and explained the situation. They're not impressed.
4. Google knows its partners are reluctant to follow it onto the new, non-infringing platform and it fears there won't be anyone on the new platform. But Motorola makes them an offer: "Buy us for $12 billion and we'll stick with you forever!"
5. Google has to do all this before Oracle gets an injunction against all infringing Android phones. So it's moving now.
That's definitely interesting speculation, but why the timing? Google wouldn't need Moto for that for some considerable time - not until they actually had the new Android ready - and by that point Moto would be likely a cheaper deal.
This is clearly mostly being driven by Google's immediate IP needs versus Nokia, MS, Apple etc. But you may be right, Google may be interested in a captive OEM as a hedge if they are forced to substantially rewrite Dalvik to escape from Oracle.
Apple didn't need to develop the iPhone out of nothing. GSM chipsets were available from players such as Qualcomm and Broadcomm who were fully licensed. If Apple had licenses from Moto then Moto wouldn't be suing Apple for failing to license their GSM patents, UMTS patents, antenna patents and so forth.
I'm sorry but you are 'pretty sure' of something for which we have factual evidence to the contrary.
quote from case
"The court also denied Motorola?s motions to dismiss Apple?s breach of contract, patent misuse, and promissory estoppel claims which also rely on Apple?s allegations that Motorola failed to disclose and license its patents appropriately"
I think the might stay where they are. If google offers to protect them with these patents, as long as they are Android vendors, that is a huge incentive to hang around.
of course it makes a difference to Apple. Patents have become the key battleground in the wireless industry. Their main competitor is about to greatly strengthen their position in that battle.
There are lots of ways this game can be played....
... some things that come to mind:
-- cell radio patents
-- cell radio chips, themselves
-- bandwidth
-- the bands, themselves
-- the OS
-- software IP such as multitouch, scrolling, etc.
-- the non-radio components hardware IP
-- the non-radio hardware components, themselves
-- manufacturing capacity
-- the carriers
-- the cell radio grid
-- the cloud component
-- the resellers
-- the developers
-- the apps
-- the ecosystem
I don't think that IP alone will win the war... though it will help define the battlefield.
I like Apple's chances based on their proven performance in most of the areas, above.
"The court also denied Motorola’s motions to dismiss Apple’s breach of contract, patent misuse, and promissory estoppel claims which also rely on Apple’s allegations that Motorola failed to disclose and license its patents appropriately"
If there is BREACH OF CONTRACT and PATENT MISUSE, you have to asume that there is some contract.
The contract may not be between Moto and Apple, but between Moto and a standards body such as the GSM standard's body, the ETSI etc. etc etc.
Patent misuse specifically covers cases were a patent should have been revealed to a standards body and was not.
A casual google reveals http://www.patentlyapple.com/patentl...-contract.html containing a big list of all the documents that Apple has filed for their breach of contract suit. Those documents are almost all ETSI, GSM or IEEE - ie. Apple is complaining that Moto has breached contracts with the standards bodies.
Except android based vendors seem to be right behind the acquisition. This and the other thread show this news has caught apple fans off guard. There's no coherent response to this news here. Very interesting day
A young woman was in the dentist office to have a cavity filled. The dentist had her prepped and just before he applied the anesthetic he said" now this won't hurt a bit". A second later he said, "young lady what is your hand doing?!" She smiled sweetly at the dentist, "now we aren't going to hurt each other are we doctor?"*
You know darned well that there have been warrooms convened this morning following this announcement. Google certainly didn't pre-warn its allies in the Open Handset Alliance that they were going to purchase Moto Mobility. If it was clear by now, Google is in it for Google, not HTC, not Samsung, and not SE. Each one of the other members of this "alliance" are looking things over and trying to figure out what this means for them. Google has already backed away from full support of handset customization, has locked them out of Honeycomb, and in short has their coroporate hands on their "proverbials".
Coming on the heels of the Nokia settlement and the Nortel fiasco and the to-date poor performance (I know, I know - just wait: the NEXT version of Android will take the [pick name] market by storm) of the Android-driven tablets, this seems to indicate that Google is desparate to shore up a leaning tower. The handset makers were desparately hoping that Android would take the place of their ecosystem development and remove the cost of that from just making handsets. Now Google is wading into the hardware side while loudly proclaiming that they have no intention of competing directly with the other alliance partners in handsets. Anytime anyone loudly proclaims intentions that vary from the obvious - wise partners start watching very closely what the loud partner is doing. Public statements are fodder for the media and observers and seldom conform to intent or resulting action, unless that action or intention is already in-process or done.
Google has yet to prove itself a trustworthy partner to the alliance. Which is why there are home-grown OSes popping up, and Microsoft licensing sheriffs at the door. Apple seems to have agreed with the pundits who are saying there is no tablet market, only an iPad market, based on the complaints filed. Conversely, with Google groping around like a mythical giant for something to hit Apple and Microsoft with, Moto Mob maybe a little too soft and squishy to make an impact on the opposing brawlers.
OK - and for the record, there is seldom a "coherent" response to Google news here, except to batten down the hatches for the inevitable fandroid assault of mooning, whacking their bottoms and waving their private parts at our aunties - just sayin'...
As if a coherent response in these fora is any indication as to the implications of any given news or rumor item.
Well, Apple did get into the phone business too after never being in the space.
But then again, they already did HARDWARE, so it was a more natural progression.
Well, exactly. They did the hard work to develop a phone platform that, while not 100% unique, was unlike anything that had existed before and customers flocked to it. They invented something. Google copied things that other companies invented and expected those other companies to welcome them in the name of friendly competition. Similarly, Google didn't invent the search engine but they sure figured out a great way to do it and they are protecting that intellectual property like a mama grizzly.
That's definitely interesting speculation, but why the timing? Google wouldn't need Moto for that for some considerable time - not until they actually had the new Android ready - and by that point Moto would be likely a cheaper deal.
This is clearly mostly being driven by Google's immediate IP needs versus Nokia, MS, Apple etc. But you may be right, Google may be interested in a captive OEM as a hedge if they are forced to substantially rewrite Dalvik to escape from Oracle.
Acquisitions can take a long time.
It's possible that since Google has known it has been infringing Sun/Oracle's IP from the start (as evidenced in the emails where they discuss it) that at some point (say after Oracle acquired Sun?) they started working on an alternative. Perhaps it won't even require a major rewrite, just a new compiler and a VM and the requirement that all the software (including 3rd party software) be recompiled, but the move is too much for its partners to swallow at this point.
I wonder ... Let's assume the inherited set of MOTO patents will protect Google against patent infringement suits. Will it necessarily protect Android licensees? The Lodsys case, although far from an exact parallel, suggests that ... maybe not!
I think this move might really be about Oracle. Here's my theory:
1. Google knows it wilfully infringed Oracle's IP, that there's evidence it wilfully infringed Oracle's IP and that it can't win the case. They can't reach a licensing agreement with Oracle either.
2. Google knows it has to move to a non-infringing, incompatible platform. Essentially they have to dump Android as it currently exists and do a complete rewrite.
3. Google has been to its Android partners and explained the situation. They're not impressed.
4. Google knows its partners are reluctant to follow it onto the new, non-infringing platform and it fears there won't be anyone on the new platform. But Motorola makes them an offer: "Buy us for $12 billion and we'll stick with you forever!"
5. Google has to do all this before Oracle gets an injunction against all infringing Android phones. So it's moving now.
1. The purchase of Moto has no bearing in the Oracle case, as Moto has nothing that Oracle could need.
2. Google can't do a non-infringing rewrite without being clean-roomed (.i.e. new developers).
1. The purchase of Moto has bearing in the Oracle case, as Moto has nothing that Oracle could need.
2. Google can't do a non-infringing rewrite without being clean-roomed (.i.e. new developers).
3, 4 and 5 confuse me?!?
He's saying that if Oracle wins big and Google has to massively rewrite the platform entailing massive disruption to the ecosystem that at least now they'll have one partner guaranteed to go with them.
I wonder ... Let's assume the inherited set of MOTO patents will protect Google against patent infringement suits. Will it necessarily protect Android licensees? The Lodsys case, although far from an exact parallel, suggests that ... maybe not!
Patent exhaustion should mean that it does, though it will depend on the license terms - presumably Googorola will be making sure their license covers it.
The Lodsys case is hard to argue from because a big part of Lodsys' position is that the developers shouldn't even have access to read Apple's license (which is covered by an NDA), so who the heck knows what it says.
So Google plans to use the Motorilla patents to avoid in-fighting among Android makers, but clearly plans to use their new patent goldmine to sue non-Android makers, because this fosters real competition in the industry which they just went on record saying the exact opposite? Hopefully the DoJ still has Google's number
So either Google was serious in their attempt to also acquire the Nortel patents, which would have been extremely anti-competitive, or, they were a party to merely drive up the price for the Rockstar ( Apple, microsoft & others )? Nice work. Google is making no friends quickly in the business community
Comments
I hope for Larry's sake the Android user hardware fraternity feel this is just for patent portfolio content. I would suspect a few more will be looking at Microsoft or internal Mobile OS development after this morning. Unless of course he shuts down Motorola Mobility later today.
What next, HP open WebOS up to all manufacturers for free if they promise to use HP printers and Ink?
Actually, the advantage to HP would be a cadre of manufacturers making mobile devices that run an OS compatible with HP's desktop OS.
HP does not need to be in the mobile device business to win in the WebOS game.
If they were further along with QNX, RIMM might have some interesting possibilities...
http://www.geek.com/articles/mobile/...-own-20110510/
I thought google said they will keep Android open still despite now owning Motorola Mobile.
I can see a scenario where they have Android for all to please other handset makers, while they tightly integrate/optimize their hardware to produce an Apple-like synergy between Motorolas handsets and Android.
They complained that they were overrun by Apple and Co. on the Nortel patents, but had gone in and made bids that equaled Pi and Brun's constant, which doesn't exactly tell me that they were taking the situation very seriously.
They talk about innovation and choice, maybe if they stopped whining for a few moments and did their own innovation, they would have a larger patent portfolio and wouldn't be "forced" into buying sinking ships like Motorola.
I think this move might really be about Oracle. Here's my theory:
1. Google knows it wilfully infringed Oracle's IP, that there's evidence it wilfully infringed Oracle's IP and that it can't win the case. They can't reach a licensing agreement with Oracle either.
2. Google knows it has to move to a non-infringing, incompatible platform. Essentially they have to dump Android as it currently exists and do a complete rewrite.
3. Google has been to its Android partners and explained the situation. They're not impressed.
4. Google knows its partners are reluctant to follow it onto the new, non-infringing platform and it fears there won't be anyone on the new platform. But Motorola makes them an offer: "Buy us for $12 billion and we'll stick with you forever!"
5. Google has to do all this before Oracle gets an injunction against all infringing Android phones. So it's moving now.
That's definitely interesting speculation, but why the timing? Google wouldn't need Moto for that for some considerable time - not until they actually had the new Android ready - and by that point Moto would be likely a cheaper deal.
This is clearly mostly being driven by Google's immediate IP needs versus Nokia, MS, Apple etc. But you may be right, Google may be interested in a captive OEM as a hedge if they are forced to substantially rewrite Dalvik to escape from Oracle.
Apple didn't need to develop the iPhone out of nothing. GSM chipsets were available from players such as Qualcomm and Broadcomm who were fully licensed. If Apple had licenses from Moto then Moto wouldn't be suing Apple for failing to license their GSM patents, UMTS patents, antenna patents and so forth.
I'm sorry but you are 'pretty sure' of something for which we have factual evidence to the contrary.
quote from case
"The court also denied Motorola?s motions to dismiss Apple?s breach of contract, patent misuse, and promissory estoppel claims which also rely on Apple?s allegations that Motorola failed to disclose and license its patents appropriately"
http://ttlfnews.wordpress.com/2011/0...-june-10-2011/
If there is BREACH OF CONTRACT and PATENT MISUSE, you have to asume that there is some contract.
They're making a better product than we ever could! That's not competitive behavior!
Someone needs his nap.
I think the might stay where they are. If google offers to protect them with these patents, as long as they are Android vendors, that is a huge incentive to hang around.
of course it makes a difference to Apple. Patents have become the key battleground in the wireless industry. Their main competitor is about to greatly strengthen their position in that battle.
There are lots of ways this game can be played....
... some things that come to mind:
-- cell radio patents
-- cell radio chips, themselves
-- bandwidth
-- the bands, themselves
-- the OS
-- software IP such as multitouch, scrolling, etc.
-- the non-radio components hardware IP
-- the non-radio hardware components, themselves
-- manufacturing capacity
-- the carriers
-- the cell radio grid
-- the cloud component
-- the resellers
-- the developers
-- the apps
-- the ecosystem
I don't think that IP alone will win the war... though it will help define the battlefield.
I like Apple's chances based on their proven performance in most of the areas, above.
I thought google said they will keep Android open still despite now owning Motorola Mobile.
Is that the same "open" as the Honeycomb source code?
quote from case
"The court also denied Motorola’s motions to dismiss Apple’s breach of contract, patent misuse, and promissory estoppel claims which also rely on Apple’s allegations that Motorola failed to disclose and license its patents appropriately"
http://ttlfnews.wordpress.com/2011/0...-june-10-2011/
If there is BREACH OF CONTRACT and PATENT MISUSE, you have to asume that there is some contract.
The contract may not be between Moto and Apple, but between Moto and a standards body such as the GSM standard's body, the ETSI etc. etc etc.
Patent misuse specifically covers cases were a patent should have been revealed to a standards body and was not.
A casual google reveals http://www.patentlyapple.com/patentl...-contract.html containing a big list of all the documents that Apple has filed for their breach of contract suit. Those documents are almost all ETSI, GSM or IEEE - ie. Apple is complaining that Moto has breached contracts with the standards bodies.
Except android based vendors seem to be right behind the acquisition. This and the other thread show this news has caught apple fans off guard. There's no coherent response to this news here. Very interesting day
A young woman was in the dentist office to have a cavity filled. The dentist had her prepped and just before he applied the anesthetic he said" now this won't hurt a bit". A second later he said, "young lady what is your hand doing?!" She smiled sweetly at the dentist, "now we aren't going to hurt each other are we doctor?"*
You know darned well that there have been warrooms convened this morning following this announcement. Google certainly didn't pre-warn its allies in the Open Handset Alliance that they were going to purchase Moto Mobility. If it was clear by now, Google is in it for Google, not HTC, not Samsung, and not SE. Each one of the other members of this "alliance" are looking things over and trying to figure out what this means for them. Google has already backed away from full support of handset customization, has locked them out of Honeycomb, and in short has their coroporate hands on their "proverbials".
Coming on the heels of the Nokia settlement and the Nortel fiasco and the to-date poor performance (I know, I know - just wait: the NEXT version of Android will take the [pick name] market by storm) of the Android-driven tablets, this seems to indicate that Google is desparate to shore up a leaning tower. The handset makers were desparately hoping that Android would take the place of their ecosystem development and remove the cost of that from just making handsets. Now Google is wading into the hardware side while loudly proclaiming that they have no intention of competing directly with the other alliance partners in handsets. Anytime anyone loudly proclaims intentions that vary from the obvious - wise partners start watching very closely what the loud partner is doing. Public statements are fodder for the media and observers and seldom conform to intent or resulting action, unless that action or intention is already in-process or done.
Google has yet to prove itself a trustworthy partner to the alliance. Which is why there are home-grown OSes popping up, and Microsoft licensing sheriffs at the door. Apple seems to have agreed with the pundits who are saying there is no tablet market, only an iPad market, based on the complaints filed. Conversely, with Google groping around like a mythical giant for something to hit Apple and Microsoft with, Moto Mob maybe a little too soft and squishy to make an impact on the opposing brawlers.
OK - and for the record, there is seldom a "coherent" response to Google news here, except to batten down the hatches for the inevitable fandroid assault of mooning, whacking their bottoms and waving their private parts at our aunties - just sayin'...
As if a coherent response in these fora is any indication as to the implications of any given news or rumor item.
Well, Apple did get into the phone business too after never being in the space.
But then again, they already did HARDWARE, so it was a more natural progression.
Well, exactly. They did the hard work to develop a phone platform that, while not 100% unique, was unlike anything that had existed before and customers flocked to it. They invented something. Google copied things that other companies invented and expected those other companies to welcome them in the name of friendly competition. Similarly, Google didn't invent the search engine but they sure figured out a great way to do it and they are protecting that intellectual property like a mama grizzly.
That's definitely interesting speculation, but why the timing? Google wouldn't need Moto for that for some considerable time - not until they actually had the new Android ready - and by that point Moto would be likely a cheaper deal.
This is clearly mostly being driven by Google's immediate IP needs versus Nokia, MS, Apple etc. But you may be right, Google may be interested in a captive OEM as a hedge if they are forced to substantially rewrite Dalvik to escape from Oracle.
Acquisitions can take a long time.
It's possible that since Google has known it has been infringing Sun/Oracle's IP from the start (as evidenced in the emails where they discuss it) that at some point (say after Oracle acquired Sun?) they started working on an alternative. Perhaps it won't even require a major rewrite, just a new compiler and a VM and the requirement that all the software (including 3rd party software) be recompiled, but the move is too much for its partners to swallow at this point.
Some here are also forgetting TV land. Motorola is huge there. Google TV is about to get an absolutely massive boost.
Is Motorola that big in TV land? Never heard of that.
Regardless of that fact, Google has bought "Motorola Mobility", NOT Motorola.
I'd argue Motorola Mobility is NOTHING in TV land.
The contract may not be between Moto and Apple, but between Moto and a standards body such as the GSM standard's body, the ETSI etc. etc etc.
Patent misuse specifically covers cases were a patent should have been revealed to a standards body and was not.
Sure, but as far as I could find, plaintiffs are Apple, Inc., NEXT SOFTWARE, INC, so I doubt it is a standard body issue.
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/wis...cv00662/29072/
I think this move might really be about Oracle. Here's my theory:
1. Google knows it wilfully infringed Oracle's IP, that there's evidence it wilfully infringed Oracle's IP and that it can't win the case. They can't reach a licensing agreement with Oracle either.
2. Google knows it has to move to a non-infringing, incompatible platform. Essentially they have to dump Android as it currently exists and do a complete rewrite.
3. Google has been to its Android partners and explained the situation. They're not impressed.
4. Google knows its partners are reluctant to follow it onto the new, non-infringing platform and it fears there won't be anyone on the new platform. But Motorola makes them an offer: "Buy us for $12 billion and we'll stick with you forever!"
5. Google has to do all this before Oracle gets an injunction against all infringing Android phones. So it's moving now.
1. The purchase of Moto has no bearing in the Oracle case, as Moto has nothing that Oracle could need.
2. Google can't do a non-infringing rewrite without being clean-roomed (.i.e. new developers).
3, 4 and 5 confuse me?!?
1. The purchase of Moto has bearing in the Oracle case, as Moto has nothing that Oracle could need.
Don't you mean "no bearing"?
1. The purchase of Moto has bearing in the Oracle case, as Moto has nothing that Oracle could need.
2. Google can't do a non-infringing rewrite without being clean-roomed (.i.e. new developers).
3, 4 and 5 confuse me?!?
He's saying that if Oracle wins big and Google has to massively rewrite the platform entailing massive disruption to the ecosystem that at least now they'll have one partner guaranteed to go with them.
I wonder ... Let's assume the inherited set of MOTO patents will protect Google against patent infringement suits. Will it necessarily protect Android licensees? The Lodsys case, although far from an exact parallel, suggests that ... maybe not!
Patent exhaustion should mean that it does, though it will depend on the license terms - presumably Googorola will be making sure their license covers it.
The Lodsys case is hard to argue from because a big part of Lodsys' position is that the developers shouldn't even have access to read Apple's license (which is covered by an NDA), so who the heck knows what it says.
So either Google was serious in their attempt to also acquire the Nortel patents, which would have been extremely anti-competitive, or, they were a party to merely drive up the price for the Rockstar ( Apple, microsoft & others )? Nice work. Google is making no friends quickly in the business community
Cheers !